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Oil Gilding Mordant

Question asked 2024-04-25 21:38:56 ... Most recent comment 2024-04-25 21:37:00
Sizes and Adhesives Health and Safety

Hello, I am looking for a traditional oil gilding mordant recipe which I could make myself.  I would like to use gold leaf over oil paints but I don’t want to use modern toxic oil sizes.  According to articles I’ve found, oil size traditionally consisted of linseed oil, resins and a drying agent.  Could I possibly make a size with venice turpentine resin or another type of resin? Do there exist recipes that are nontoxic for oil sizes? 

Thanks so much for your help

Oil Gilding Mordant

Question asked 2024-04-25 21:36:28 ... Most recent comment 2024-04-25 21:34:00
Gilding Oil Paint Technical Art History

Hello, I am looking for a traditional oil gilding mordant recipe which I could make myself.  I would like to use gold leaf over oil paints but I don’t want to use modern toxic oil sizes.  According to articles I’ve found, oil size traditionally consisted of linseed oil, resins and a drying agent.  Could I possibly make a size with venice turpentine resin or another type of resin? Do there exist recipes that are nontoxic for oil sizes? 

Thanks so much for your help

Painting using techniques by Degas and Toulouse Lautrec

Question asked 2024-04-15 07:35:41 ... Most recent comment 2024-04-22 11:42:41
Oil Paint Solvents and Thinners Varnishes Flexible Supports Art Conservation Topics

​Hello,

First of all Thank you for all the knowledge you are sharing on this website. My question is about a Technique that Degas developed and used with his pupil Touluse Lautrec, called "peinture a' l'essence",  meaning "essence painting". The essence was oil painting havily diluted in turpentine that they apparentely used also on cardboard, sometimes mixed with pastels and chalks.

So my questions are:

Is it possible to repeat this Technique:

1.Using an eco solvents like sennelier green brush cleaner

2. On cardboard and if so, what cardboard? ( I read the document about flexible surfaces/ paper and I am still not sure if gessoed rag papers are better than arches or other paper pads specifically made for oil painting)

3.would this need a varnish and if so after how long, given that the paint will be really thin? Could alkyd be used to have a faster drying?

4.would paper be better than cardboard, or canvas as a surfaces or they are all the same? And what would you prefer?

5. What problems of longevity do you think there can be based on Toulouse Lautrec works?

6.can other mediums be mixed, such as chalks, charcoal, inks...

7. Do you think that oil painting is still the best medium for reaching similarity to this Technique or other medium would be more suitable? I am thinking about acrylics or water mixable oils for example


Sorry for so many questions, but I have been very curious about these twoartists that I really admire and I am looking for a more "on the go" approach to painting. Thank you for your time,

Flo


Use of shellac india ink as underlay oil painting

Question asked 2024-04-12 07:14:44 ... Most recent comment 2024-04-17 16:48:55
Ink Oil Paint

I am looking for an archival/durable alternative to acrylic inks for use as underpainting in oil. I am considering using india inks (e.g. Dr Ph Martin Bombay inks) on a primed ground (e.g. 100% rag paper or board) with a layer of oil paint on top but have found very little information so far on whether this is archival/performs well long-term or how best to apply.

I have sought to break down my query a bit:

  1. What are suitable grounds and are these primed for shellac pigment inks? Seems like a rigid surface, e.g. primed board or paper better than canvas?

  2. Is shellac ink over acrylic gesso primed acid-free 100% cotton paper archival and not cause deterioration, change in appearance or loss of adhesion of shellac to the ground?

  3. Is oil paint over shellac ink on acrylic gesso primed acid-free 100% cotton paper archival and not cause deterioration or loss of adhesion , change in appearance of oil and/or shellac?

  4. Should I apply a varnish over the india ink on paper before applying oil, and if so what kind?

  5. What is approx. composition of shellac-based pigment inks, e.g. % shellac, water, pigment, other?

  6. Is there any literature and/or testing to hand on compatibility of shellac pigment inks with acrylic gesso and oil paint? Or examples of artists who have used the inks in this way?

Wood panel for water gilding

Question asked 2024-04-16 01:59:39 ... Most recent comment 2024-04-16 01:55:00
Gilding

Hello, 

I want to do traditional water gilding with traditional gesso on wooden panel.  What is the best wood to use?  I would prefer to use a ready-made panel rather than making one.  I am looking to work on an 18x24 inch size or smaller, but I may want to work larger in the future, up to 30 inches. I hear that many artists use birch plywood for traditional gesso but I would like to avoid checking and warping issues with plywood.  Would ampersand cradled hardboard panels be a good choice? Or is there a better one, considering the many layers of gesso I need for water gilding?  If I use hardboard panels, do I still need an interlaggio fabric under the gesso? 

Thank you in advance! 

lightfastness of pigments when tested in whites

Question asked 2024-04-05 11:18:48 ... Most recent comment 2024-04-14 15:26:01
Oil Paint Pigments Scientific Analysis

​I have recently read Golden's technical specialist, Trevor Ambrose's article in Just Paint , Sept 24, 2023, on the results of lightfast tests of 34 selected WB oil colors when mixed with several whites.  This is a significant revelation as it suggests that the usual ASTM lightfastness ratings seen on color tubes and on The Art of Color  and other websites are not entirely reliable as a measure of a pigment's lightfastness when in use with white.   

If you look at the lightfast results in the article, it is obvious that many, but certainly not a majority, were particularly less lightfast in lead white than in titanium and not what would be expected for the pigment alone. The most notable ones for me were cobalt blue, cad yellow medium, and ultramarine blue all moving fom ASTM I to II.  (Note: I am not picking on WB or casting any aspersions on their oil colors whatsoever and use their products consistently, but WB, Gamblin and Natural Pigments, to their credit, were the only paint manufacturers to participate in this investigation so I suspect that they used their own colors for the tests.  The tests may reliably shed light on most if not all tested pigments regardless of oil paint company.)

I have been a user of WB lead white both alone in bottom paint layers and mixed 50-50 with WB or Gamblin titanium in upper layers to achieve some of the benefits of both whites in paint layers.  I am now considering using titanium alone throughout and using up the lead white for studies and landscape sketches alone but not for larger finished paintings.  (I use Graham's walnut alkyd and Gamblins alkyd lite for my medium, with a little stand oil for the viscous paint at the bottom of the tube before adding alkyd.  I paint finshed paintings on alumalite and dibond with pH neutral PVA sized 140 cotton watercolor paper for studies, sketches and tests.)

1.  Are the benefits (stronger, harder and more flexible paint film than titanuim) of lead white worthwhile, considering the loss of color lightfastness, from ASTM I to II, in 3 of 8 colors in my palette?  If the test results seen in Trevor Ambrose's article are correct, the lightfastness of cad yellow medium and cobalt blue remain at ASTM I with the use of titanium white.  Ultramarine blue still drops to ASTM II. 

2. Would the  continued use of alkyd as my medium be more than sufficient for film strength without the use of lead white?

I have followed ASTM ratings for many pigments both on line and on color tubes and have memorized many of them.  (No ASTM II's please.) But if the results of these tests on 34 pigments are correct, I may have to re-evaluate my painting materials a bit.

Thanks for your thoughts,

Richard


lightfastness of pigments when tested in whites ...PS

Question asked 2024-04-05 12:07:46 ... Most recent comment 2024-04-05 11:58:00
Oil Paint Pigments Scientific Analysis

​Would the use of titanium white exclusively as the only white used in one or more top paint layers, be enough to protect the lower, leaded layers from from loss of lightfstness?

If this worked, it would allow the benefits of lead white in at least the bottom layer(s) with the titanium layers protecting them...or am I just taking a chance with any lead white and should just stop using it in finished paintings?  (and lose the strength, flexibility and hardness of lead white)

Thanks for your thoughts,

Richard 

Touching up older oil paintings

Question asked 2024-04-01 18:15:28 ... Most recent comment 2024-04-01 18:05:00
Oil Paint

​I recently noticed a comment in another post on reusing canvases ( https://www.artcons.udel.edu/mitra/forums/question?QID=116 )

which said, " When paint has had some time to cure and harden over a period of time (as in years) it no longer serves as a suitable surface to continue painting on (plus you risk dealing with flaking, cracking, and delamination of the top layers of paint later on). "  Occasionally,  I will touch up paintings that are a few years old. Sometimes it's just a minor stroke or two. Other times it might be the entire background.  In approximately what time frame does oil paint become an unsuitable surface (too hard/closed) to paint over?  Am I okay after 2 or 3 years? I assume five to ten is too many? 

Concern about potential sunlight damage

Question asked 2023-01-20 01:04:53 ... Most recent comment 2024-03-29 13:42:45
Art Conservation Topics ASTM Drawing Materials Environment Matting, Framing, and Glazing Oil Paint Other Pastel Pigments Varnishes Watercolor

​Dear MITRA folks,

To make a long story short, a solo show space that I have been offered consists of a long wall on one side of a wide corridor/lobby where art is installed, and a long window opposite that allows light to hit the art wall all year long, with distracting shadow patterns of branches for good measure. When I voiced my concerns, I was told that there is a tint on the windows with "5% transmission" that cuts out 99% of the UV light rays. Would that be sufficient to keep any sunlight damage from happening over the course of a two-month period exhibit? Under normal conditions with brief periods of light coming in at only a certain time of day I would think so, but this window allows sunlight in all day long. 

I could help mitigate the risk by using varnish with UV protection where applicable or frame with UV protection glass where glass will be used, but I am wondering if oil, watercolor, or pastel should be out of the question for this show and that charcoal drawings might be a "safer" option? (My largest body of charcoal drawings were executed with non-traditional, homemade charcoal, if that makes a difference.) 

All of my materials are professional quality, and for the most part I use lightfast pigments -- all the oils are lightfast ASTM rating I -- though occassionally the watercolors made with natural pigments and crushed gemstones are graded ASTM II.  

Many thanks in advance for your guidance! 

Cutting a gessoed panel that has a linen layer

Question asked 2024-03-21 18:36:15 ... Most recent comment 2024-03-28 11:30:59
Egg Tempera

​Hello! 

I have 2'x2' birch panels that I will be cutting down to workable dimensions. My question is, do the panels need to be cut before I apply linen and true gesso, or can the prep be done, including linen, on the large piece, and cut down later? 


Thank you for your help! 

Beth


Preparing birch panels with linen

Question asked 2024-03-21 18:00:45 ... Most recent comment 2024-03-21 17:45:00

​I have 2'x2' birch plywood panels that I'm going to prepare with true gesso for egg tempera. The gesso recipe I have is supposed to cover a panel this size, front and back, with as many as 10 layers. I know I need to use a linen layer after priming and before the gesso layers. My question is, can the linen layer be applied before I cut the large panels down so that I can gesso the whole panel at one time, or should I cut the large panels down to workable sizes first, and process each piece separately? In short, can I cut a gessoed panel that has a linen layer? Thank you for your time. 

Beth Armstrong

​Stretch gesso reversed

Question asked 2024-03-09 10:19:27 ... Most recent comment 2024-03-11 19:09:47
Grounds / Priming Oil Paint

Hello,

I work on transparent primed linen on aluminum stretchers bars.

A good stretcher company in Europe as well as another in the US proposed to stretch my linen reversed, i.e. with the transparent acrylic primed side to the back and the umprimed part visible. Once stretched the front is gessoed with transparent acrylic gesso. They say being gessoed both sides, there are fewer chances for the linen to destretch over time as it's often a problem with linen. I've worked on it and it works great.

But someone just told me it's a bad idea. The canvas needs to breathe on the back for the oil to dry well.

What are your thoughts on this?

I also wanted to do the same thing but with white gessoed canvas (white acrylic gesso stretched on the back and I gesso the raw front with transparent acrylic gesso once stretched). Is there a difference with doing this with canvas and white gesso instead of linen and transparent gesso?

Thank you so much for your precious help. 

Additives to Gesso for Egg tempera panels

Question asked 2024-03-03 12:38:54 ... Most recent comment 2024-03-09 14:59:20
Grounds / Priming

​Hello, 

I have been preparing wood panels for egg tempera based on a fairly traditional way. I firstly saturate the panel with 5% gelatin solution. After completely drying I repeat with 7% gelatin solution and after complete drying attach the cloth which was soaked in 10% gelatin solution. All the solutions  are warmed up in a water bath with the temperature not exceeding 60 °C. I then prepare the gesso using 10 % gelatin solution in a ratio of 1:1.13 pure fine chalk powder. (Calcium Carbonate). Before the addition of the chalk I was advised to add one teaspoon of oil in the solution (poppy, linseed or sunflower oil) for plasticity purposes. The problem is that oil is hydrophobic and doesn't dissolve in the solution. So in the end droplets are trapped within the final gesso. Someone else suggested adding honey to the mixture, 1 or 2 tablespoons in 1L of gelatin solution. What is your opinion on this? Do you have any better suggestions for adding some sort of plasticity to the final gesso mixture? 

Thank you

MH PR254 oil paint drying issue

Question asked 2024-03-03 00:31:32 ... Most recent comment 2024-03-08 17:53:40
Drying Oils Oil Paint

​Hi here,

​i notice the michael harding PR254 paint takes so long to dry, like a thin brushed layer would take 4 weeks to touch dry, while on its label it says average drying. those slow drying labeled paints are dries much sooner than this and i also tested same pigment paint from other brands that all dry about a week. so anyone has a clue why the MH version dries this slow? it doesnt looks oily but a proper paste form. 

Student Grade paint

Question asked 2021-05-15 05:14:57 ... Most recent comment 2024-03-01 13:26:55
Acrylic Art Conservation Topics Oil Paint Scientific Analysis Technical Art History

I have the perception (whether right or wrong) that Student Grade oil paint from the main manufacturers contains an abundance of fillers and that these make cause long term problems with the paint film (aluminium stearates, etc..) compared to the use of Artist Grade oil paint.

I also have the perception that Student Grade acrylic paint (from a good manufacturer) does not have the same issues as the acrylic paint film is much more stable over time.

Am I wrong in these beliefs?

Thanks,
Richard

thought about solvent free layered painting process?

Question asked 2024-02-05 00:37:43 ... Most recent comment 2024-03-01 13:22:35
Art Conservation Topics Paint Mediums Oil Paint Health and Safety

​Hi here,

traditionally when painting in layer, to adhere fat over lean rule, people usually mix oil and solvent in ratios from leaner to fatter to each layer. 

i am thinking if possible we adhere to fat over lean but make it solvent free? 

maybe start with a absorbent acrylic gesso ground, which is a thirsty starting layer that will draw oil from straight of tube first layer color, then in next 2nd layer, brush on a thin layer of linseed oil first then complete w/ color, repeat the process for subsequence layers, all brush on a oil layer then paint. 

the only difference here beside traditional method is use oil only without solvent, and have the absorbent gesso layer to help creating fat over lean by drawing oils from layer to layer. 

does anyone seeing any issues of this method? or if you have other ideas, plz share? 


Pigment paste in water

Question asked 2024-02-28 11:29:01 ... Most recent comment 2024-02-29 13:52:18
Egg Tempera

​Hello MITRA.

In his book, The Practice of Tempera Painting, Daniel V. Thompson describes storing the ground pigments for later use by making a pigment paste and adding water on top.  This would be placed in a wide-mouth jar with a lid that can be securely closed.  He describes adding quite a bit of water to ensure the pigment paste does not dry out. 

However, the book never describes how to remove the paint paste with the water on top.  I am hoping you can describe it to me.

Up to this point, I simply temper my dry pigment with the water/egg/distilled vinegar emulsion.  However, I do like the idea of pigment paste and would like to try it out.  

Thank you for your help!


Roger-



Green for Oil Thinner - Non-toxic solvent?

Question asked 2018-05-25 11:07:44 ... Most recent comment 2024-02-26 14:08:56
Health and Safety Solvents and Thinners Art Conservation Topics Environment

​Hi all,

There is a recent thread on the WetCanvas forum discussing the relatively new 'non-toxic' solvent produced by Sennelier under their Green for Oil Range:

http://www.sennelier-colors.com/en/Green-for-oil_fiche_9895.html

http://www.sennelier-colors.com/en/Green-for-oil-thinner_fiche_9896.html

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1447854

They claim that it is non-toxic and apart from the warning that it shouldn't be ingested there doesn't appear to be any warnings online about ventilation or toxicity. I was under the impression that all solvents were toxic to some extent, but if a well known brand can market this product and without any warning information then maybe it is non-toxic?

There is speculation on the WetCanvas thread that due to it's more oil like feel and very slow evaporation rate that it is likely a 'biodiesel' - a methyl ester of fatty acids. I am not a chemist but if I understand the science correctly: 

"Biodiesel is produced from linsed oil through a procescaled transesterifcation [12], with this proces the higherfaty acids are separated to methyl and ethyl esters usingmethanol and catalyst KOH.Biodiesel fuel has beter properties than that ofpetroleum diesel fuel such as renewable, biodegradable,non–toxic, and esentialy fre of sulfur and aromatics. Thepurpose of transesterification proces is to lower the viscosityof the oil. The viscosity values of linsed oil methyl andethyl ester highly decreases after the transesterificationproces. The viscosity values of vegetable oils vary betwen 27.2 and 53.6mm2/s, whereas those of vegetable oil methylesters betwen 3.59 and 4.63 mm2"

So if this is correct it sounds like it is a very low viscosity oil that can be added in small amounts to thin out oil paint.

I am going to try some out myself, but wondering if anyone hear had any experience with this product or any thoughts on it from a conservation perspective.

It feels to me that there is a growing concern over the toxicity of solvents and the marketing of non-toxic alternatives, which might still have toxicity or archive issues.

Sizing/priming ACM with shellac

Question asked 2024-02-20 05:36:44 ... Most recent comment 2024-02-20 05:33:00
Grounds / Priming

Dear Mitra,

While I am aware that the choice is far from ideal, what would be your recommendations and warnings regarding using bleached shellac as ground for ACM panels?

Thank you,

F. Flute​

question regards solvent alternative non-toxic thinner

Question asked 2024-02-19 01:37:42 ... Most recent comment 2024-02-19 01:31:00
Drying Oils Environment Health and Safety Oil Paint Paint Mediums

​Hi here, i had seen Michael Harding release new Miracel thinner as non-toxic solvent alternative thinner, and of course on the market, there are also green for oil from Sennelier, ECO medium from Maimeri. i want to ask for those who knows these product:

1, does these evapoerate fully that leaves no residue as spirit based solvent?

2, does this be able to use in larger quantity to smaller quantity of oil/oil paint to create wash effect? i remember someone saying for Sennelier GFO cannot exceed 25%, otherwise oil will not dry. so it kind of suggest the GFO is not likely to evaporate out or leaves residue that prevent oil proper drying. does other products behaves the same?

3, from concervative point of view, will use of these product reduce oil film stability? 

Canvas Surface Prep

Question asked 2024-02-16 12:33:21 ... Most recent comment 2024-02-16 12:29:00
Art Conservation Topics

Hello! I am looking to manufacture canvases and have received feedbacks from artists. 

I was always curious as to why ​certain artists liked to prime their own canvases, and a lot of it seemed to do with the current pre-primed canvas market. 

The problem being 2-fold, sizing and gesso. 

Nowadays canvases are not sized but extra layers of clear gesso are added to stop oil from seeping through. My question regarding this is - is clear gesso a good alternative to PVA? How does it perfrom in terms of archival purposes? 

Triple primed gesso seems to be the norm. What are the biggest challenges about it?




Drawing Fixatives: Recipes and How to Make them?

Question asked 2024-02-13 20:54:32 ... Most recent comment 2024-02-13 20:33:00

I'd like to start a discussion regarding fixatives and their various properties (also workable vs. final fix), sourcing them in liquid format (vs. spray can), and recipes for making them from scratch from quality raw materials. ​

I’d gotten into the habit of not fixing the majority of my drawings as I’d often return to them weeks, months, years, and occasionally decades down the road. Which isn’t to say I’ve never used spray fix (see addendum). 

Due to that I have thousands of drawings and sketches which have never had any fixative applied. The dominant medium is graphite and/or charcoal being the next populous (some small percentage might incoerporate some ink, pigmented felt tip pens like Pigma/Sakura, Prismacolor pencil, or perhaps a bit of gauche or watercolor). 

Being as three rattle cans of Lascuax Fixative will cost $100 and will only service a fraction of my drawings, it seems more economical and environmentally sound to purchase a large volume of fixative in liquid form, for ex. fluid quarts, half gallon, or gallon and use my own HVLP spray setup to apply it. (I have one liquid product sourced years ago - Reworkable Blue Label Fixative, see addendum). 

Even more economical would be to make my own fixative from scratch with the raw ingredients.

To that end a few questions:

1.) Are there standard recipes circulating for practitioners who prepare their own fixative from scratch? in NYC there’s art archival/conservation suppliers and/or chemical houses (Kremer, Talas, etc.). 

I'm not up to speed on the chemistry but if I understand correctly fixative is essentially a resin (Paraloid B-72 seems to be the standard?) dissolved in a solvent (or solvent blend) along with pressurized gases to suit the spray can format. What else is typically included in the recipe list? UV stabilizers? Matting agents? Other?

Some ingredients I see on MSDS: Xylene, Ethyl Acetate, Paraloid B-72, Methoxy-1-Methylenthyl Acetate.

2.) What’s the difference between workable fixative vs. final fixative … both in ingredients and performance? My understanding is that workable fix is intended to be erased and drawn over/into while final fix is typically functioning as a complete sealing coat of sorts. Is it just  matter of degree in the proportion of the resin that’s responsible for the distinction or is there other additives/omissions, etc.?

I don’t have a background in  chemistry, but I can follow directions measuring and mixing components and perhaps research whatever I’d need to learn in order to get all the materials optimally into solution and mixed in order to spray. 

I have access to high quality HVLP spray guns, large capacity compressor/regulators/filters, and exhaust ventilation so the spraying setup isn’t an obstacle. I imagine that a sophisticated spray gun setup would potentially result in a higher quality application of fixative vs. a rattle can’s  cheap plastic disposable nozzle as the former has the capacity to adjust pressure (which changes in a rattle can as the pressurized gasses are depleted), atomization, flow rate of material (to suit ambient conditions such as temperature & humidity, distance from work, coverage, etc.), the shape/size/pattern of the spray, along with direct feedback as to the volume of fixative in reserve. 

Any thoughts, comments, suggestions?

Thanks a bunch!

———

Addendum:

I do have a few cans of spray fix I’ve accumulated over the years  as listed below (most are 10 or more years old). Anyone have any info/experience with them?:

  1. -Lascaux Fixativ #2070 (300ml)
  2. -Blair #105 ‘Very Low Odor’  workable matte fixative, 12oz, -Blair #01-10506 ‘Very Low Odor’ , 4.5oz. 
  3. -Blair #105  ‘No Odor Workable Matte Fixative, 12oz [are we entering the realm of visionary marketing/magical thinking/consumer manipulation?]
  4. -Krylon Workable Fixatif #1306, 11oz.
  5. -Grumbacher TUFFILM Final Fixative, Matte 11.75oz
  6. -Reworkable Blue Label Fixatif (Martin/F. Weber Co.), liquid,  16 fl oz. (“use atomizer or airbrush to apply light application”).
  7. I’ve also used a few Senellier products sold in liquid form, plastic bottle with manual pump atomizer ( (i.e. not pressurized): ‘Delacroix’, ‘Latour’ (pastels), D’Artigny (oil pastels). This was some years ago.​

Interleaving Paper for Drawings

Question asked 2024-02-10 07:14:28 ... Most recent comment 2024-02-09 16:56:00

It's time for a resupply to my interleaving paper used to protect drawings and I have a question regarding available products. 

The primary - and most demanding - use scenario I routinely face is for protecting drawings in a spiral bound drawing pad (often Strathmore 400 series paper but not exclusively) from rubbing against the verso side of the preceding sheet. 

These sketch pads are daily carry, get used/opened/consulted frequently, I typically leave the drawings bound in the pad in perpetuity, and they aren't exactly babied even though I try not to completely abuse them ... still pads are often stacked on top of one another - and with books, are squeezed into a backpack jammed with other stuff, are tossed about, etc. which is to say the drawings have a life where the interleaving paper matters a great deal. The most common media for these drawings is graphite but charcoal is also common. With the graphite at times the technique requires very fine detail at a tiny scale and the slightest variation of line thickness and sharpness is a major component to the visual effect, so that even slight smearing to precise lines can degrade the impact and effect of the image. Often these drawings will end up loosing their freshness and crispness. For quite some time I've rarely used fixatif (not sure how wise that is) as often I'll revisit and rework the drawings well into the future. 

The secondary usage is for individual drawings in flat files which in my experience is less critical regarding smearing but still requires archival qualities. 

I use glassine paper cut from a roll. Often after some months graphite will transfer onto the glassine and the drawings can smear a little. For example in a drawing pad that's seen heavy use and handling if I remove a glassine interleaving sheet and hold it up to the light there will be graphite transferred onto it, enough to make it appear dirty and contaminated. 

At times I've taped the top edge of the interleaving sheet to the the sheet of drawing paper (while still bound in the pad) with the belief that it maintains the position of the interleaving paper in a more fixed relationship to the drawing and helps prevent some shifting back and forth and resultant rubbing. 

Many years ago I purchased a drawing pad at New York Central that had interleaving paper built into to it between each sheet … this interleaving paper was white, opaque, and was semi-gloss/gloss (I cannot recall the brand abut IIRC it was a New York Central branded pad but made using a using a quality known paper - and may have been a pastel paper) . I don’t recall ever experiencing any media transfer to that interleaving paper. Any idea what that white interleaving paper may have been? It was extremely smooth … which makes me think that glassine actually has a degree of texture. 

Unless anyone has any suggestions or comments, I’ll likely just buy another glassine roll.

Thanks a bunch.

Small particle size pigments impossible to fully bind in egg tempera?

Question asked 2024-01-29 13:48:46 ... Most recent comment 2024-02-09 16:36:01
Egg Tempera Paint Making

Dear Mitra,

​I continually struggle to work with pigments that have very small particle sizes when working with egg tempera. Most of the dark blue pigments, for example pthalo, indigo, prussian, anthraquinone, suffer from being impossible to fully bind with egg, leaving a very sensitive surface that picks up marks easily and sloughs off pigment when touched. Carbon black, phthalo green, dioxazine, and others have the same problem. I keep my pigments ground in water and use a little alchohol, when necessary to help disperse difficult colors. Fully grinding pigments again with a muller into the egg medium may help a little but has been insufficient to fix the problem completely.

I have managed on occassion to apply a few layers of a more easily bound pigment, with much more egg than pigment, on top of the senstiive layers to try and cover over the improperly bound particles and seal them in, but this has often take many tedious layers and is rarely satisfactory, neither fully emeliorating the issue, nor preserving the visual quiality that compelled me to use the problematic pigment in the first place.

Any tips from the masterminds here at Mitra?

thank you! - eli

Orientation of Two Beva Films with ACM

Question asked 2024-02-08 14:04:52 ... Most recent comment 2024-02-08 13:53:00
Rigid Supports Sizes and Adhesives

​The instructions on mounting linen onto solid supports, particularly ACM panels, is not clear with how the two Beva 371 films should be oriented.  There are 4 possible orientations of the Beva 371 films between the linen and the ACM panel -- two have the two Beva 371 films pointed in the same direction, and two have the two Beva 371 films pointed in opposite directions.

Which orientation configuration of the two Beva 371 films is recommended and why?

Below the hyphen represents the separation between layers

A) linen - Beva/Mylar - Mylar/Beva - ACM
B) linen - Mylar/Beva - Beva/Mylar - ACM
C) linen - Beva/Mylar - Beva/Mylar - ACM

D) linen - Mylar/Beva - Mylar/Beva - ACM

Also, in what order do you recommend adhering the two Beva films in the assembly?  The solid support writeup isn't super clear on this.  Is the recommened order, 1) adhere Beva film to the ACM 2) adhere Beva film to the linen 3) adhere the ACM+Beva and linen+Beva pieces together?


Stretching Large Finished Oil Paintings.

Question asked 2024-02-07 19:56:29 ... Most recent comment 2024-02-07 19:40:00
Oil Paint Flexible Supports Grounds / Priming Art Conservation Topics Studio Tools and Tips

​Does anyone have any tips on stretching large finished oil paintings? I have two finished fairly large 60  x 84 inch oil paintings that I completed while tacked to a wall. Both canvases are not pre stretched. Just to give a brief description on the substrate and how they are painted...they are both on good belgian linen with a lead oil ground without zinc or alkyd made by Rublev. Both paintings are painted fairly thinly without much medium aside from a linseed based gel. I don't usually start a painting on unstretched canvas but rushed the process a bit in this case before I could make some strainers or purchase some stretchers. I know plenty of artists who do this but don't care to think of the consequences of restretching so figured I would ask this forum for tips before a proceed with stretching these canvases. I know an artist like Pierre Bonnard loved to paint on unstretched canvas but something tells me he pre stretched first.

Thanks

making acrylic gesso

Question asked 2024-02-04 16:45:23 ... Most recent comment 2024-02-04 16:42:00

​Hi all,

I’m making my own acrylic ground with an acrylic dispersion from Kremer (where I buy almost all of my supplies) Titanium white and calcium carbonate ,  you think this will work? Any advice on how to do it properly? mixing, proportions etc

Also, could I substitute the titanium white for another pigment if I want to make the ground a different colour ?

Ps: this solution is getting a bit foamy so I might add a defoamer and a dispersion aid (also Kremer), but anyway , do you think the foam is a problem, I've done several paintings before I realized this.

thank you!

Lightfastness of cobalt yellow PY40 in oils

Question asked 2024-01-23 17:19:10 ... Most recent comment 2024-01-31 14:45:39
Oil Paint Pigments

​Many tests in watercolor have contradicted the ASTM rating for this pigment, by showing a terrible grey color from what was originally a yellow. However, I have yet to find any swatches for oil paint testing with this pigment. I scoured Google and found only one person who said "Aureolin did what it always does — darken."


I also remember reading, many years ago, people discussing various brands. Some believed that Grumbacher's (at least historically) was lightfast, arguing that its darker color out of the tube related to its greater resistant to color change. I have used Grumbacher's aureolin and it, indeed, is more of a medium-dark straw yellow out of the tube, versus the much lighter and more saturated paint I have seen from other brands' swatches. The painting I used it on also didn't show a color shift toward grey. It, though, wasn't exposed to any strong sunlight.


I have created this post because, as with the other pigment I asked about, I can't find any conservation literature about this pigment's lightfastness. All I can find are various tiny bits, unsupported with charts/data, about how some pigment chemists didn't believe it could be stable due to its odd (for a pigment) chemistry. I am wondering if it is lightfast in oils, particularly if it is kept out of bright sunlight (i.e. museum conditions). I also have read, I think, that it reacts with true emerald green but no one uses that anymore so that's moot.


Does anyone know of any research into this pigment that would answer these questions? It seems that the matter of its use in watercolors has been thoroughly resolved. It turns grey. However, it oils, I am inclined to believe that if it isn't exposed to much UV it will last long enough to be considered "lightfast enough" for serious oil painting, in a manner similar to quinacridone rose and carbazole violet.

— SRS

Pounds

Question asked 2023-11-03 10:33:50 ... Most recent comment 2024-01-29 13:48:16
Egg Tempera Rigid Supports Grounds / Priming

Hello Mitra! 

I was wondering if anyone knows of research on the load traditional gesso puts on a panel/cradle when it has fully dried, ie. when it shrinks thereby putting pressure on the panel causing it often enough to become concave? For a few years I have been fumbling along to create larger scale panels for my traditional egg tempera painting (30" - 45" and up). Currently I use a combination of wood and aluminum cradle glued to a tempered hardboard face. My success is fairly average. All my cradled panels have some amount of concave warp. Many are still usable but some are too curved to tolerate. My research now is to consider a more serious engineering approach. For example, 80/20 has a calculator to figure out the beam deflection for aluminum extrusions based on how many pounds of force is applied. If there was an understanding of how much force, say 8 average layers of traditional gesso put on a panel, perhaps one could calculate a material for the cradle that could sustain such pressure. I would love to hear if anyone knows where to look for this kind of research.

A related question would be: Could adding more water to my gesso recipe make the glue less powerful, therefore adding less pressure to my panel when it dries and shrinks? I generally use the Koo Schadler / Daniel V Johnson ratio...

Link to the 80/20 beam deflection calculator

thank you!
eli

Can you freeze sizing and/or true gesso

Question asked 2024-01-22 22:18:51 ... Most recent comment 2024-01-27 08:42:14
Egg Tempera

Hello MITRA,

I am just discovering the practice of egg tempera.  I want to minimize waste and was wondering if you could freeze either the sizing or gesso for later use.

​Thank you for your help!

Roger-





Sintra (PVC board ) as a surface for oil painting?

Question asked 2024-01-16 09:12:21 ... Most recent comment 2024-01-26 15:55:32
Industrial and Non-Traditional Products Rigid Supports

​I am interested in painting on Sintra -a brand name for a type of closed-cell polyvinyl chloride-  because I've been told it is more stable than the birch ply panels  I have been using for years.  It is much lighter  (which will allow me to paint larger) and isn't supposed to be affected by humidity and temperature shifts.  I can't find information anywhere though if it is considered archival.  Does anyone have any experience working with a surface like this?  Thanks

Acrylic medium (gloss) as a wood sealer

Question asked 2023-02-03 06:39:29 ... Most recent comment 2024-01-24 10:30:18
Acrylic Sizes and Adhesives

​Would any decent quality (established brand) gloss acrylic medium seal a wood panel effectively?

There is a lot of advice online about sealing wooden panels with a gloss acrylic medium. The majority of the advice recommends using Golden gloss acrylic medium (or their GAC though Golden now say their medium is better for this job) though others refer to using any gloss acrylic medium. There are a number of good quality gloss acrylic mediums marketed for professional use though coming under the 'midrange' umbrella as well as excellent quality versions under the 'artist grade' umbrella. As far as I'm aware, Golden only produce 'artist grade' products. Considering the multiple coats and hidden nature of the sealing layers, it would be helpful to know what is suitable.

Thanks. 

      

Preservatives for making watercolor paint?

Question asked 2021-11-26 12:50:55 ... Most recent comment 2024-01-23 18:00:58
Watercolor Paint Making Paint Additives

​I have been making my own watercolor paint and have had a problem with mold growing on some colors.  

What are some preservatives that I could add to my paint to prevent mold growth?

Preserving Ultramarine blue

Question asked 2023-10-13 11:21:51 ... Most recent comment 2024-01-23 17:28:04
Pigments Storage Paint Making

​I have purchased ultramarine blue in the past and it began to smell. I was wondering what I should add to it to remedy this situation. Currently, this pigment sits in water and I have added some alcohol (70% isopropyl). But I wasn't sure how much to add. I am planning to mix it into egg tempera but I don't want to spoil the capabilities of the egg  yolk. So I am letting some of the water/alcohol mixture evaporate before I actually use it. Any tips?

Making paint with polyurethane

Question asked 2020-10-08 17:32:35 ... Most recent comment 2024-01-12 01:54:12
Alkyd Acrylic

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I am trying to make paint for art paintings on wood and paper and canvas using polyurethane (water based) Sherwin Williams as the medium/binder.

The support people at SW said nothing should be added to it by way of colorant and not  to thin it with anything, even water, as that would weaken the paint film.; (a legally safe response.)

Since the clean up directions for use said to use warm water immediately and the stuff was ‘water based’  the clerk in the store and I thought thinning with water could be done,  like the use of water in acrylic thinning where its okay if you don’t use too much.

I think I saw on some SW literature that  a wood stain could be added to the polyurethane.

I also see that the polyurethane will yellow over time , and as a matter of fact, it looks yellowish right out of the can.  I think I can live with that.

The main question is;

What are the potential or probable effects of using acrylic paint as a colorant in the polyurethane.

So far I have mixed and used some mixtures like this and also with powdered pigments, but  it has not been long enough to tell much of anything, except that they do dry pretty fast and the mixture seems stable enough over a couple of days if covered on the palette..

Kindly advise if this is a dead end, or a guess as to what bad and good things I should look out for.

Thank you.

Signing back of oil painting with acrylic paint?

Question asked 2022-08-10 15:40:18 ... Most recent comment 2024-01-12 01:32:03
Studio Tools and Tips Grounds / Priming Oil Paint Other Art Conservation Topics Acrylic

​I want to use a fluid acrylic paint to sign the back of oil paintings on linen and cotton canvas. I want to first paint a patch of fluid matte medium (I use Golden) or GAC ​on the unprimed back of the canvas, so that the brush will flow. My question is, could this cause the canvas to buckle or shrink unevenly in the long term? It is a patch about 1" x 2". I hope it would also prevent the fluid acrylic color from penetrating to the front of the paintngs. Or does this method present any other archival risks to the paintings? Thanks!

Fat over lean in article on Natural pigments

Question asked 2021-04-21 09:16:19 ... Most recent comment 2024-01-12 01:27:36
Drying Oils Oil Paint Pigments

There is an article at naturalpigments.com by George O'Hanlon called „Painting for Posterity with Modern Oil Paints", about some aspects of oil painting. I'm posting a question about it here, because „Forum" section at naturalpigments.com hasn't been functioning for some time (or it seems that way - not possible to start a new topic) and also because George sometimes posts also here. I'd like to know his opinion – but of course everyone is welcomed to share their knowledge and experience.


Quoting from the article:

Fat-Over-Lean Rule

You are probably familiar with the fat-over-lean rule. What the fat-over-lean rule implies is flexible over less flexible paint layers. When you apply a more flexible layer on top of another, the final paint film will be more resilient and more resistant to cracking. Increasing flexibility is accomplished by adding more medium or oil, or lowering the pigment volume concentration of the paint with each succeeding paint layer.

 

However, this is typically difficult to achieve in practice. Most artists don't understand what constitutes fat or what is lean. It is impractical to measure the ratio of pigment and binder while painting. What I will tell you next may sound like heresy but you do not need the follow this rule if you use paint at its CPVC, which is applying paint straight from the tube, and paint thinly. On the other hand, working in thick paint layers and/or with lots of medium or oil added to paint requires one to observe the fat-over-lean rule.

 

I visit mitra forums from time to time and there already has been discussion about fat over lean, and so far, the conclusion was, that in fact every paint is formulated to be lean out of tube (i.e. made with just neccesary amount of oil, at CPVC or so).

The statement of my interest is : „(…) you do not need the follow this rule if you use paint at its CPVC, which is applying paint straight from the tube, and paint thinly." It is not clear, George was reffering to Rublev colors or any oil paint in general. And that makes me wonder; whether he meant paints based on various pigments in same oil, or in various oils as well.

 

You see, there are manufacturers like Williamsburg, Gamblin, Michael Harding and of course Natural pigments, who use linseed oil as a default binder for their entire line of oil paints and they also offer some pigments ground also in other oils like walnut or safflower. If one wants to use only linseed oil based paints, it is possible with these brands. But on the other hand there are many manufacturers who use different oils or oil blends for different types of pigments. One example I can mention is Blockx; they use linseed oil for iron oxides, natural earths, blacks and few other pigments (e.g. PY53, PY154, PY184) or blends (e.g. Paynes Gray, Indigo) and poppy oil for everything else, i.e. blues (organic and inorganic pigments), cadmiums, cobalts, organic reds, oranges and of course whites.

 

Now, let's say one wants to use Blockx oil paints to create grisaille underpainting using chromatic black (e.g. burnt umber and ultramarine) and flake (lead) white and then lay a glaze over it with transparent mars yellow and the painting will be done according to what George wrote, i.e. applying paint straight from the tube, and paint thinly.

Ultramarine and Flake white are in poppy oil, burnt umber is in linseed oil. Seems to me, that burnt umber is stronger than ultramarine, so more ultramarine will be necessary. Then, as grisaille needs to be bit lighter than a final painting would be in grayscale, relatively large proportion of white will be necessary; of course it can vary depending on particular part of painting, but my point is – this will result in paint layer consisting mostly from poppy oil as a binder. Let's say it'll be left to dry and cure for two weeks, and then the glaze based on Transparent mars yellow will follow; in case of this color, linseed oil i sused as a binder.

Therefore, it will be a paint layer with pure linseed oil as a binder over a paint layer with mostly poppy oil as a binder; is this alright? According to what I know and read so far, I'd say - not really... as oils like poppy and safflower should not be used in lower layers, because they form weaker layer. And yet, so far I haven't read any article or blog post about paint layers cracking in such situations.

 

I wonder, if it is really a problem, when one uses „weaker" oil like poppy underneath „stronger" oil like linseed. Whether it is only about oil, or also about pigment; lead white is known to make strong and flexible paint layer; is it possible that lead white in poppy oil will still dry into paint layer as strong as some other pigments in linseed oil?

 

What do you think about it?

Longevity of a work, if mixing Van Gogh oils and Rembrandt oils

Question asked 2023-05-01 08:59:35 ... Most recent comment 2024-01-12 01:00:11
Oil Paint

​Hello, 

I possess a little of everything from Royal Talens' oils, and wonder:

Can I mix Royal Talens Van Gogh oils with Royal Talens Rembrandt oils into one another safely? 

If not, can I do large passages with a color from Van Gogh, isolated from details where I would use strictly Rembrandt oils? 

Do I immediately cut the longevity of the painting in half by using Van Gogh oils?

Thank you​

Inquiry regarding archival support options

Question asked 2023-04-14 07:30:49 ... Most recent comment 2024-01-12 00:44:28
Art Conservation Topics Oil Paint Rigid Supports Industrial and Non-Traditional Products

​Hello, I have been researching for a while with regards of finding the best archival support possible for my artworks. 

I am happy painting on wood, but the detrimental effects RH and temperature swifts have on this material encourage me to look for a better option. I have also tried unsealed anodized panels, but i am unsure on long-term adhession of oil paints. ​I will try to keep it simple, as out there are many varied options. ​​

​​I am currently driven towards painting on ACM supports, but I am dubious on which subtype to choose. ​I am not too fond of plastic, having read it to not be expected to be as durable as metal, which leaves me with Honeycomb or Alucobond panels. 

​On the one hand, I am interested in trying Honeycomb panels, but being located in Europe, getting Artefex's ones is too expensive due to the shipping costs. I would like to test a sample before buying a bunch of them to save, but that seems unfeasible. ​

On the other hand, I found advice from Mr. Ross Merrill, former chief conservator of the National Gallery, where he recommended the use of an Alucobond panel glued to a Sunbrella poolyester fabric. I like this approach the best, as Alucobond seems to be the best option out of all the ACM types I have read about. 

I have already asked Sunbrella and, although they claim their current anti-moisture coating to not be as easily removable by hand as before, they were happy to offer me some fabric samples for me to check (still pending to be shipped from France). Meanwhile, I find myself incapable of getting an Alucobond panel smaller than 400x150 cms and coated with a polyester fabric upon which to glue the Sunbrella one, for better adhesion. 

​I would like to ask for advice on whether or not I am being too fussy, as ​Dibond is easily available, but again I am not a fan of cheap plastic cores. Am I right making that assumption? 

Maybe honeycomb panels from Artefex are the best way to go, and just testing the Sunbrella fabric to check if it's worthwhile or just sticking to ​​their lead oil panels in case not. At least for the time being, before getting any huge one directly from a manufacturer.   ​


Any advise highly welcomed and appreciated, thank you.

​Kind regards,

Jesus Boltzmann

Imitation Mussini oil paint (that uses dammar) concerns

Question asked 2023-05-03 07:46:08 ... Most recent comment 2024-01-11 23:54:43
Oil Paint Paint Mediums Paint Making

Hello,

About one month ago (quite accidently) I learned that a very affordable, locally-made artist grade (very high pigment load, minimal fillers) paint I'd been using for a few years uses dammar. This is before switching to, at the same price point, known and respected global brands' mid-range and student paints. The price of these local paints is great, but most importantly: a very lightfast pigment selection and the colors are ultra-luminous (it is no longer mysterious how this is happening), but now I am worried about long-term consequences.  I am only guesstimating: ~ 4-5% dammar per tube of 60ml.

I want my paintings to last 100+ years. 

What can I do to combat any soon-to-manifest issues in my existing pieces? What types of damages can I look forward to / should I be looking out for, in the years to come? 

The works are all unvarnished, for now.

Also: how can I safely use the remaining paint, or should I not?  

I was imagining I could use it in a top layer, as a glaze, ontop of non-dammar-based oil paints. Is this advisable at all if, say, it is mixed with some other medium? Maybe Pebeo's acrylic based medium (for oils)? Or perhaps liquin? 

https://en.pebeo.com/catalogue/famille/oil-auxiliaries/oil-auxiliaries-200-ml-xl-colourless-painting-medium--937115OIL AUXILIARIES 200 ML XL COLOURLESS PAINTING MEDIUM► Colorless XL Painting MediumProperties: Alkyd resin based,  Good resistance to yellowing,  Cleaning : Mineral spirits or turpentine

(I have no idea how foolish this last suggestion is, I am just brainstorming out loud.)





Thank you very much, so few people exist in real life and online to discuss these topics...​​

Question regarding oil lead ground and oil lead white paint

Question asked 2023-05-10 06:37:08 ... Most recent comment 2024-01-11 23:49:48
Grounds / Priming Art Conservation Topics Oil Paint

​Hi! While researching, I have come across some interesting comming from Angel Academy of Art's founder, Michael John Angel, about lead use in oil painting. I was interested in using a lead oil ground or lead alkyd ground on top of a surface prepared with acrilyc gesso as I have read lots of statements implying lead provides great strenght to the surface and further paint layers.

''This is great, but who would use dingy lead white these days? Over a short time, the lead combines with the sulfur in today's air and forms lead sulfide (and lead sulfide is black). I am a huge fan of Michael Klein's, but why not use titanium white (aka, the perfect white)? Titanium's only defect is that it's a slow drier, but mixed with an alkyd (such as Liquin), or bought in alkyd form, that defect goes away. It might be worth pointing out that there is a misapprehension about lead white: because it's so heavy, the assumption is that it is opaque. This is simply not true; it is fairly transparent. Lead white, like so many other pigments, is composed of round crystals, which bump together but leave a bunch of gaps. Titanium, on the other hand, has needle like crystals, which mesh together and form an opaque and permanent layer with no gaps. The Old People (guys & gals) used lead white simply because it was all they had. Today, we have much better paints than they did.''

Although both his comment and the fact lead white provides a strong film are not exclusive, I would like to know some conservator's opinion on this regard. Are the aforementioned drawbacks of lead (both ground and paint) sufficient to consider rulling it out, or its strength and other good properties make it still worth it? Specially when using it as a ground that will be fully covered. 

Thank you so much for your time, kind regards.


Where can I find Lapis Lazuli pigments?

Question asked 2023-01-06 09:28:10 ... Most recent comment 2024-01-11 22:55:17
Oil Paint

​I have a deep love for the beautiful blues I see in old paintings. 

I've been eying micheal harding tubes (the only lapis lazuli pigment I can find here in the US), but I'm not sure of their quality. How good are they? I'd like the highest possible quality lapis available on markets if possible! 

Is there an online available alternative if the harding ones don't make the cut? 


Thank you! 

Walnut/Alkyd medium with cold wax

Question asked 2023-11-10 14:01:58 ... Most recent comment 2024-01-11 22:40:45
Oil Paint Paint Mediums

​I have painted several layers using Walnut/Alkyd medium. Now I want to add an additional layer that has texture using a palette knife. I am thinking of adding cold wax to the oil paint/walnut oil/Alkyd medium for better texture. Is this a good idea?

Georgian Oil Paint

Question asked 2023-12-22 05:18:52 ... Most recent comment 2024-01-11 22:29:36
Oil Paint Paint Additives Other

​Daler Rowney makes  an oil paint positioned between their student and professional lines called Georgian. I have poked around and most comments online consider this a student grade paint in the same range as Winton. Indeed many of the pigments are mixed. However there are several single pigment paints in the range. I have tried out these paints and in my tests they behaved pretty much like professional grade oils. Their coverage and handling properties are on par with or superior to window newton artist oils (the professional grade). So what's going on here? Is Georgian really a student grade oil paint? If it is then what does that mean for the permanence of the oil paintings made with this line of paints? If they do fall in the range closer to professional grade then do they perform as well in terms of possible delamination or other long term problem? 

Particle Size

Question asked 2022-11-20 13:13:20 ... Most recent comment 2024-01-11 22:21:02
Pigments

​Colored pigments seem to have a farily consistent particle size; for example, titanium white is listed as .5 microns, viridian generally listed as 2.5 microns, etc.  Filler or extender pigments (white or transparent solids) seem to come in a very wide range of particle sizes depending on use (from industrial to artist grade).  My questions are...

1.  Do synthesized colored pigments generally - or always - have a consistent, predictable particle size?

2.  How much can the particle size of artist grade, natural earth pigments vary?  Or are there standard, predictable sizes used within the paint industry?   

3.  Are filler/extender pigments mostly dervied from natural minerals? (The only synthesized filler/extender I can think of is glass powder...)  ​

4. Are artist grade filler/extender pigments ground/sieved to specfic sizes (are there industry standards)?  Or can they range all over the place?  For example, if I buy a "fine grade" chalk from two companies, can I expect them the same particle size?  If not, how much might "fine grade" particle sizes vary? 

Thanks

Expert opinion on sizing and priming stretched linen

Question asked 2024-01-09 20:45:36 ... Most recent comment 2024-01-10 11:49:06
Grounds / Priming Sizes and Adhesives Rigid Supports Oil Paint

Hi everyone, 

I'm looking for opinions on the best way to size and prime larger linen supports. These are the two options I'm considering.  3 coats of high quality acrylic gesso then two coats of lead ground or 2 to 3 coats of gamblin PVA size then 2 coats of Lead ground? I'm not sure if the first option is a bit overkill but I understand rigid supports are mostly the first thing recommended.  I'm not able to use a panel or harder surface as a support due to weight and portability issues so my only option, currently is stretched linen. 

Thank you.


Leveling a Finished Wooden Painting Support

Question asked 2024-01-08 07:31:29 ... Most recent comment 2024-01-08 07:26:00
Rigid Supports Acrylic

​Hello. I was looking for advice on reshaping a warped 48" x 60", 1/2" plywood panel that is cradle and braced utilizing glued 1-1/2" x 1/2" plywood. A minor bow has presented itself within one of the corners. Both sides of the panel are prepared with Golden Gloss Medium, primed with Sandable Hard Gesso, painted with acrylics, finished with Golden Isolation Coat. I am looking for a solution that will not damage either side of the painting. I would really appreciate the forums expertise. 

Clarity on sizing panels with Rabbit Skin Glue

Question asked 2023-12-29 12:42:05 ... Most recent comment 2024-01-03 07:55:14
Animal Glue Grounds / Priming Sizes and Adhesives Rigid Supports Egg Tempera

​Hello Mitra! Happy Holidaze !

I am looking for clarity on sizing wood for using with true gesso and egg tempera. I am looking for this clarity because I made a mistake preparing panels with true gesso where I neglected to size the panels with RSG first.

The tradition, as I know it, of preparing true gesso panels includes a step of sizing the wood and letting it dry at least overnight, before applying gesso.

My question is: given the hygroscopic nature of RSG, what prupose does it actually serve as a layer between panel and gesso? I assumed it was to block moisture from travelling between the panel and gesso but is this so?

And for what it's worth, in my case the panels are 1/4" Duron ("tempered" hardboard) with cradle, no sizing layer, and 7 coats of true gesso on the face...

Thank you in advance for any specifics. Cheers, - eli

Ultramarine

Question asked 2023-04-03 10:46:33 ... Most recent comment 2023-12-31 21:39:48
Paint Making

​Dear members,

Every time I am making Ultramarine paint with my students, it turnes out too long, or too short. There seems to be no middle ground. It either is too stringy or too gum like. 

When adding a little chalk, it suddenly turnes into gum when you press. And when leaving it, it just runs/ flows. Weird behaviour. And I don' t know how to solve this.

I already am using linseed oil with 2-3 % aluminum stearate, but it doesn' t seem to help. Also chalk doesn't do it, nor added beeswax. When adding more pigment it even becomes more runny.

I know "it is a property of the pigment" , but there has to be a way to make it yourself properly, right? What am I doing wrong, what might help?

​Thanks in advance.

Any known issues with using Iron Oxide pigments "for industrial use "in making oil paint?

Question asked 2023-04-30 02:18:38 ... Most recent comment 2023-12-31 21:17:26
Paint Making Oil Paint

​What is the chief ​difference in Iron Oxide pigments for industrial purposes, versus Iron Oxide pigments sold with the stated function of the production of artist's oil paint? 

Iron Oxide Pigments | Yipin USA

Thank you very much, MITRA.​

Medium

Question asked 2017-12-08 17:31:10 ... Most recent comment 2023-12-31 21:03:19
Technical Art History Oil Paint Paint Mediums

Hi-

 

I'm rather old school and I can't afford to switch to walnut oil and lavender I have to keep it simple.  I paint a lot and on a large scale. I would say my application of paint is on the wet loose side and most likely too much vehicle and medium is slapped around by your standards

As I get older I am concerned with my health, if it is not too late, so I  have begun to rethink my formula of 40 years:

 1:1:1

Turp- Dammar -Linseed oil

I begin with gum turp and progress to a fatter medium.

Occasionally I add stand oil to the brew.

I have experimented with adding egg yolk, using liquin and alkyd mediums. I'm happy with my old "go to" but for the fumes. I occasional remove dammar from the mix. Any ideas of a formula or medium that would suit me. Any big issues with the 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 mixture I use?

Thanks

Does enhancing lightfastness by "adding iron" apply in oil paint? (PY3 + PY42 or PY43, PR112 + PR101)

Question asked 2023-06-04 02:03:28 ... Most recent comment 2023-12-31 20:55:39
Oil Paint Pigments

Hello MITRA,

I received a gift of half a dozen tubes of pigment-rich professional paint with seemingly no strange fillers. However, two tubes have questionable pigments: PY3 and PR112. I would feel bad not finding a use for them, so I wonder if the suggestions from this post could apply to oils.

From https://www.artcons.udel.edu/mitra/forums/question?QID=776:

“If you mix a small amount of Gamblin Etching Ink Yellow Ochre (PY43), you might increase lightfastness (Iron oxides are used with an organic pigment in the paint industries). Of course, it will affect the chroma and lightness of Hansa Yellow Light (PY3).”

I also found the assertion that “adding Iron aids in increasing lightfastness for fabric dyes” at https://botanicalcolors.com/botanical-colors-how-tos/how-to-use-iron-powder-ferrous-sulfate/.



Handprint.com lists PY3 + PY42 (aureolin [hue], Holbein, in watercolor) as the most satisfactory PY3 in the listed lightfast tests (https://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/waterfs.html). 

If you feel this tactic could work with oil paint, could the protective measure of “adding iron,” perhaps in a 1:1 ratio, also work with Napthol Red PR112 using Red Iron Oxide PR101? Or would I just have the ultimate end result of pure Red Iron Oxide after 50 years?



Also, does anyone know if PY3 ever stabilizes in its color after light exposure? 

I see it darkens and browns, but does it stabilize into a greenish-brownish dark yellow after a set amount of months or years and then remain that way, or does this process last indefinitely, leaving a strange dark green-brown after 70+ years? If that’s the case and PY3 is rather useless as a yellow in the longer term, maybe the safest way would be to use it as an "extender" or sorts for dark brown shades, or perhaps a dark Chrome Oxide Green?

Thank you in advance for any information you could provide.

White oil paint yellow over time?

Question asked 2023-10-17 20:14:33 ... Most recent comment 2023-12-31 20:36:03
Pigments

​​Does Winsor & Newton's Titanium White oil paint g​et yellow over time? I painted the background of a canvas with this white and I'm afraid it might yellow over time."​

chemical stability and lightfastness of cobalt arsenate (original cobalt violet light)

Question asked 2023-12-31 20:06:47 ... Most recent comment 2023-12-31 20:00:00
Pigments

​I asked a chemist recently if cobalt arsenate (the original cobalt violet light, prior to the rise of alternatives such as PV 14, PV 49, and PV 47) is a risk for producing arsine (a problem with the copper arsenates like emerald green and Scheele's), as I haven't heard of it blackening nor losing its color in some other way on the pigment level when used in artists' paints.

He is an organic chemist so perhaps he doesn't know but he was still concerned, off the cuff, about the possibility of arsine being formed. I have looked at the literature and haven't found any detailed information whatsoever about this pigment's stability. I couldn't find a single conservation article devoted to it via Google Scholar.

One hobby chemist who made some as a demonstration said he believes it is tightly bound enough to not react. Other things I have read that are vague and shallow have said roughly the same thing. My guess, based on the complete lack of writing about the pigment blackening, fading, changing color, et cetera — is that it's the only stable arsenic pigment used in art, as the sulfides (orpiment/realgar) have various stability issues including changing from one form to the other and losing chroma.

However, I would really like to know. Holbein was the last to produce it. Its catalogue from the 1980s still showed it. One Youtube chemist's product looked like PV 47 to me, so I am not sure if cobalt arsenate has any artistic value, given its higher toxicity. However, I am wondering if anyone has done measurements for its chroma and how they compare with PV 14, PV 49, and PV 47. Of course... how well that chroma stands up in terms of air pollution and pH issues is also the question. My understanding is that PV 14 has not only the typical cobalt phosphate heat sensitivity but is also sensitive to acidic and basic pH.

Additionally... for the chemists here... as PV 47 and PV 49 are alterations of the PV 14 molecule... is it possible to add lithium or ammonium to cobalt arsenate in like manner?

toxicity of genuine maganese blue

Question asked 2023-12-24 13:02:28 ... Most recent comment 2023-12-31 18:33:46
Pigments Oil Paint

​Hello MITRA administrators,

I had a question regarding materials safety. I was recently able to acquire several tubes of genuine manganese blue oil paint. (It is, genuinely, magical. I won’t wax too poetic about how wonderful and unique it is, but I would really like to continue working with it.) The general word-of-mouth consensus among artists regarding the reason for lack of availability of the pigment today is that it is quite toxic.However, CAMEO lists the health hazards as identical to those of manganese violet, which is generally considered fairly safe by artists.

So, how much more hazardous is genuine manganese blue really, compared to most pigments that are currently readily available? (I generally try to follow strict studio safety and hygiene practices for all paints, regardless of how “safe” the pigment is considered.)

aluminum reinforced wood panels

Question asked 2023-12-24 12:08:40 ... Most recent comment 2023-12-27 13:46:44
Rigid Supports

I recently came across an intriguing product available from an artists’ support manufacturer based in the UK: A cradled wood painting panel of typical readymade construction (plywood front with strips of wood glued to make the cradle), but these also included an aluminum frame attached to the back inside the cradle. My question is whether this aluminum frame would actually be helpful in preventing warping as well as preventing stresses on the painting surface, or not, or worse yet lead to even more longterm problems than would be posed by a typical wood panel? (When working on wood panels now, I always mount a piece linen over the surface with ph neutral PVA before painting, in case that changes any considerations regarding stability of the paint layers.)Aesthetically I like the idea of these better than a wood cradled ACM panel, since all of the material on the exposed sides would be wood rather than a combination of wood, aluminum, and plastic. They’re also a bit less expensive than the cradled ACM panels available, but quite a bit more expensive than most available cradled wood panels. Shipping would also be pricey, since only this UK company appears to make the product and I’m based in the US.

Soaking oil brushes until next use

Question asked 2023-06-05 18:08:51 ... Most recent comment 2023-12-22 05:24:24
Oil Paint

My studio doesn’t have running water, and I am wondering if there is a solution to care of brushes used for oil painting in-between painting, without washing brushes out. My current routine is mineral spirits followed by soap and water.

I’m worried about soap not being totally washed out. I’m not keen on mineral spirits if it’s unnecessary.

Some artists are suggesting not cleaning their brushes at all, instead leaving them in a tray of oil (bristles suspended). Oils suggested for this have been safflower oil, poppy oil, even baby oil.

Any thoughts on this? I’m particularly worried about the wrong kinds of oil ending up as a residue in my brush and affecting the longevity of my paintings. Thanks

Float frames, some framers using velcro dots?

Question asked 2023-11-20 15:45:55 ... Most recent comment 2023-12-07 03:59:19
Matting, Framing, and Glazing

​I've come across more and more framers using adhesive velcro dots on the back of the corners of stretched canvases to fix them into the float frame alongside some screws. What is the situation regarding archival / longevity when canvases are framed like this? I've looked online though found very little information. Thanks.

Casting metal powders in acrylics and oils

Question asked 2023-11-27 14:48:15 ... Most recent comment 2023-11-27 14:42:00
Oil Paint Acrylic Paint Additives Pigments

Hi,

I have been interested in the possibility of mixing metal powders such as bronze, copper, brass and stainless steel powders in a linseed oil& gamsol medium, as well as in an acrylic medium. I am imagining that all these metals will dull over time, but I am curious about the integrity of the paint film and also wonder about the toxicity risk once the pigments are integrated in a paint body. Are they only dangerous when airborne or is mixing them likely to set a hazardous reaction?

Are there certain metal powders that you would recommend that are less likely to dull and darken ? I am dreaming of mixing paints that are genuinly made of metal powders that would look like a rough Richard Serra surface, but painted. I find the 'metallic paints'' sold by companies like williamsburg annoying as they are often mixed with mica or other irridescent components that feel too gimmicky or illusionistic. I would like to use metal powders as a more raw and direct application of these materials.

Lastly,  if I do an underpainting with metal powders, is it risky to layer oil colors from tubes on top?

I hope this post starts an interesting conversation on the possibility of grinding metal powders in oil and acrylic paint bodies. 

​thank you, I am such a fan of this platform!

Alex

For reference, here's a link to the specific brand of casting metal powder I am talking about / have tried to experiment with : https://www.dickblick.com/items/artmolds-powders-12-lb-bronze/

Bonding Linen to ACM panel

Question asked 2023-11-13 14:07:51 ... Most recent comment 2023-11-15 09:13:40
Sizes and Adhesives

I am using Golden Soft Gel Gloss Acrylic medium to bond a double primed linen to an ACM panel and having many occurances of air bubbles and non adhesion appearing 48 hours after application. The ACM panel was lightly sanded and coated with one application of the medium then let fully dry. A second coat of the medium was applied throroughly right up to all edges as well as one coat applied to the back side of the primed linen immediately before pressing the two surfaces together. Heavy weight was applied and distributed evenly over the 48 x 40" panel as the two surfaces were placed in contact and it was set to dry for 24 hours in a 55-65º room with less than 50% humidity. After 24 hours the edges of the linen were trimmed to the ACM panel but serious edge puckering in the linen had occured and all four edges showed no adhesion for about an inch in. After 48 hours a dozen places in the middle of the surface showed air bubbles where none had appeared in the first day. I have lost faith in this medium as an adhesive for use with linen on this surface. Where this medium had worked adequately on small ACM panels before (12 x 16" or smaller), this attempt was a disaster. Why am I seeing air bubbles appear so many hours later?

STORING Oil Paintings

Question asked 2023-11-02 15:00:37 ... Most recent comment 2023-11-03 02:43:17
Storage Handling and Transportation

​Very often paintings are returned from an exhibition wrapped in a thin foam. Can work be  left wrapped and stored for years?I have used a ( 3-6 mil?) plastic  that I purchased in a roll from the hardware store. I have also seen a saren /cling wrap ploy and used it myself.  When a show comes down I am often tempted to leave the oil paintings wrapped and protected but besides Tyvek can these other methods be safe? Thank you so much.BL

hog bristle brush hair fray after clean with soap and water

Question asked 2023-10-04 23:49:37 ... Most recent comment 2023-10-31 07:51:53
Oil Paint Studio Tools and Tips

​Dear MITRA community,

i found issues of the high quality hog bristle brush (from a reknown Spanish brand), that when i clean it with soap and water, the hair will fray out that makes the brush out of shape.

so i want to ask if you have experience the similar issues and how would you resolve the issue?

​someone warns clean with solvent will damage the hair as the natural oil is loosing result britle hair. best to clean with oil soap. but then once the hair contact of water, no mater it is just dip into water or rinse with water, the brand new brush will just frayed out. 


Voodoo Darkening

Question asked 2023-09-26 13:50:59 ... Most recent comment 2023-10-28 11:16:49
Oil Paint

Hello all, 

Curious whether anyone can offer some insight into a frustrating experience I just had in the final stages of an oil painting. I'm using Gamblin's Solvent-Free Medium for the first time. It worked great with the first coat. In the second layer, however, flat areas of color painted with the exact same color mixtures that I had used previously and saved, dried with darker and lighter patches. I spoke with Gamblin and they said this had nothing to do with the medium. They said it was a well-documented phenomenon with color mixtures that have a lot of titanium white in them, which mine do, sometimes called Voodoo Darkening. This palette is not unique to me though, and I've never had this issue before.

​Gamblin recommended I remix the colors with Zinc white and completely repaint the problematic passages using Solvent-Free Medium. Before such a risky and laborious undertaking, I'd love any feedback anyone can share. Is it really my old friend Titanium that's causing these issues and NOT the brand-new medium I'm using?

I should add that the work is on high-quality linen stretched over a Gatorboard panel. The oil layers are on top of an acrylic underainting.

Thanks so much,

Aliza

Underdrawing

Question asked 2023-08-17 12:15:28 ... Most recent comment 2023-10-26 09:56:18
Pencil Drawing Materials Oil Paint

Hello wonderful Mitra team,

I recently saw in your forum that underdrawings with pencils containing wax is not recommended for oil paintings.

Thus I am trying to find something without wax in white and I am having surprisingly a hard time. Most drawing materials companies have wax, or don't list their ingredients and neither respond to my emails. 

Do you have specific white pastels, chalk or white charcoal that you recommend?

I am thinking the General Pencil Compressed White Charcoal sticks. Maybe as it’s sticks they put less other fillings in it?

Derwent charcoal pencils say they are made of charcoal particles mixed with the finest clays. Is clay ok?

Thank you so much for your help as always!

Cotton paper and egg tempera

Question asked 2023-10-18 17:09:48 ... Most recent comment 2023-10-22 17:59:07
Egg Tempera

​I am in the beginning stages of illustrating/illuminating a book and experimenting with different mediums. One thing that is set in stone by the person requesting the book is that it is on 100%cotton paper. I have used water color initially but wanted to experiment with the use of egg tempera. I am curious if this is even worth my time. Will the tempera hold up on this type of paper or eventually flake off. Once completed it will be bound in a book. Has anyone ever painted with egg tempera on cotton paper with success? 

Thank you for your time

Oil on camvas drying from backside

Question asked 2023-10-19 04:21:57 ... Most recent comment 2023-10-19 04:05:00
Animal Glue Art Conservation Topics Flexible Supports Grounds / Priming Oil Paint Sizes and Adhesives

​Hello,

We know that oil paintings dry from top layers down to the core ground. Let's just say that ground is oil as well. And I find this logical if that same oil ground is sealed beneath as it should be.  Now, size seals it. But, can size allow air to pass throug it? If yes, wouldn't then sized canvas pass air throught from the backside and allow oil ground to dry from back as well? 

Primarily I am using animal glue as size.

Damir Pusic.


Trouble with laminating muslin on plywood

Question asked 2023-10-12 18:40:55 ... Most recent comment 2023-10-18 12:19:20
Casein Rigid Supports

​Hi there,

I'm a student worker at the Art Instutute of Chicago, in the painting and drawing department's materials lab. Currently I'm having some trouble laminating a cradled plywood panel using casein medium to adhere muslin fabric.

This is the recipe for casein medium we use in the lab.

After making the medium, we dilute it 50/50 with water.

A few weeks ago I attempted to laminate a plywood panel with muslin, and I soaked the muslin in this 50/50 mixture. I then squeegee-ed the fabric to the panel, and stapled on the reverse. I was told this would provide a strong enough glue for the fabric to adhere. However, over and over again I've had problems with the fabric forming bubbles/pockets once the casein dries. These bubbles only form on the sides of the panel, not the front.​

Could someone perhaps diagnose my issue? Also, how tight should I be stretching my fabric when laminating a panel? My muslin started to tear at the corners of the panel as I was stapling it, leading me to believe that I applied way too much tension. Is soaking it in glue before stapling the correct order of operations?


Thanks,

Audrey



Primer and canvas bleed

Question asked 2023-10-07 15:06:07 ... Most recent comment 2023-10-07 14:41:00
Oil Paint

VID_20231007_191901

I recently started using thixo primer, after a couple coats of rabbit skin of course, i did one thick and one thinned with some solvent. The one thinned with solvent had some bleachy stains on the back so i discarded it. 

The one applied more thickly had some tiny specks of white on the back but they were almost unnoticable.

This however made me look at some other canvases Id worked on prior and I seen a degree of sparkly residue and some very very faint stains on the back. 

I can provide more pictures if needed

I guess what im asking is, are these all duds?

How does one perfectly prepare a canvas?

kind regards connor

Which pigments dry darker?

Question asked 2023-09-22 10:42:36 ... Most recent comment 2023-10-05 10:58:12
Pigments Oil Paint

​Does anyone have a comprehensive list of what paint pigments tend to dry darker? 

So far I've seen Transparent Oxide Red, Italian Brown Pink Lake, and Oxide Yellow darken significantly after drying (all synthetic iron oxide pigments). 

I've also noticed this using purple browns containing athroquinone and azo condensation. I'm mostly using these straight from the tube, with very little linseed added.

​Are there any other pigments that dry darker? I'd like to compensate for these ahead of time. 


making my own alkyd paint.

Question asked 2023-09-22 12:37:01 ... Most recent comment 2023-09-23 09:04:39
Alkyd

​Hi MITRA.

I would like to ask you if it is possible to make alkyd paint frpm pigments using alkyd based binder intented for coatings industry(base TR). 

I cannot find alkyd resin anywhere for artist use. 

Is it ok to make paint from alkyd medium like liquin  ?

Thank you!

Archivability of Coconut Palm Bark Fiber

Question asked 2023-09-21 16:05:36 ... Most recent comment 2023-09-21 15:22:00
Grounds / Priming

​Hello All,

I am a professional oil painter and live in Hawaii. I have an idea for a series which would use Coconut Palm Bark Fiber as my substrate (photo attached of what I have on hand).

It doesn't need to be perfectly archival, but I would like it to be conservator friendly. I'd like to retain transparency so some type of matte clear primer would be ideal.

I need help in the right direction which is why I'm reaching out to those who could kindly share their knowledge.

Thank you!

Stephanie


PalmFiber.jpg

Possibly helpful resources:?

https://textilelearner.net/coconut-or-coir-fiber-properties-manufacturing/

https://textilelearner.net/coconut-coir-fiber-properties-manufacturing/

Egg Tempera on Casein

Question asked 2021-01-21 18:32:56 ... Most recent comment 2023-09-15 14:41:24
Egg Tempera Casein

​I have a student wondering if she can paint egg tempera on casein.  Since casein, like tempera, is a high PVC paint, I can imagine it's open, absorbent surface may allow tempera to properly adhere. But I don't really know.  Any thoughts on this idea?

Koo Schadler

Best Panel Surface for Small to Medium sized Egg Tempera

Question asked 2023-09-13 09:51:27 ... Most recent comment 2023-09-15 14:40:02
Egg Tempera

​I am a Casein painter now transitioning to Egg Tempera. I keep reading about all the various supports for Egg Tempera and I keep thinking -why take the risk? Casein is much more tempermental when it comes to cracking and warping then Egg Tempera - although I know Egg Tempera also has its challenges. But what we are talking about when it comes to the support is no warping of the structure or separation of the gessoe from the surface. So There is a custom panel out there which is birch veneer with a basswood cradle over alumicore. This is what I found works best for casein as any warping or flexibility means cracking. I would think it is the same for Egg Tempera. I am looking for feedback on this discussion. Thank you, Nancy

embossed effect on acrylic covered canvas

Question asked 2023-08-15 18:45:57 ... Most recent comment 2023-09-15 07:08:45
Matting, Framing, and Glazing Art Conservation Topics Acrylic Flexible Supports Grounds / Priming

I am a printmaker/painter. Recently I used acrylic paint on a thin canvas to make a print, image area 9" x 12". The canvas was then stretched on stretcher bars. I then used acrylic as an Isolation coat and added Golden MSA spray varnish on the image.

On the back, on unsealed canvas​, I glued on a file-folder-weight piece to give information about the picture. I used Golden Soft Gel to glue it on, spreading the gel only on the tagboard and dry canvas. Then I added weights over the whole back within the stretcher bars until the glue process was dry. Unfortunately the front of the canvas now has a very slight but noticeable raised embossed ridge around the area of the tagboard on the back.

I tried to flatten this by placing on a glass sheet the canvas face down on a plastic-covered, slightly thick piece of foam a bit smaller than the square. Then I spread gel on the back of the canvas around the tagboard area, then added lots of weight on the stretcher bar perimeter. When dry there was no noticeable change to the embossing.

The Golden Paints technician to whom I talked suggested this forum might have a suggestion on how to overcome that embossing, since it sometimes happens with mending ripped items.

I have access to full sized printing presses at our university art department, if that might be an option with brute force.

Does anyone have a hlepful suggestion? Thank you.

PS - This item can be seen at www.janeevans.ca under the "Monotypes & Paintings" tab, and its name is "Cliffside Path at Sunset." It already has some textures of paint, which I would like to preserve, but the regular edges of the embossing need to be removed if possible. JAE

Casein on flexible supports.

Question asked 2016-12-05 18:01:07 ... Most recent comment 2023-09-13 10:27:21
Casein Flexible Supports
In the resources here, in the Grounds and Primers PDF, it states that casein should only be used on rigid supports because it is brittle.
However, at the site http://www.richesonart.com/products/paints/richesoncasein/richcaseinfaq.html, it states
"Can Casein be used on stretched canvas?
Yes, but you must remember to paint very thin because Casein can crack if it's applied too thickly. If you would like to paint thickly and would still like to paint on canvas, mount the canvas or linen on masonite, and prime the canvas with PVA, glue or acrylic gesso. Then go to town and paint as thick or thin as you please! "
So my question is, is it true that casein can be used on stretched canvas if it is painted thinly?
I can't see why a thin layer of casein would be any less brittle than a thick layer.

golden gel on canvas

Question asked 2023-09-01 11:50:32 ... Most recent comment 2023-09-07 10:29:16
Acrylic Other

Good afternoon, I need your help. I am painting a large format work (200 x 150 cm) with acrylic and the section of the windows has a kind of collage, which in this case is a transfer of acrylic skin adhered with softgel on the canvas. I am working with the canvas without stretched canvas with a frame (normally I paint on the wall and my works "fall" like tapestries, in this specific work I am using a frame only as support during the production stage).So far so good, except that my fabric gathered almost two centimeters from the side where I put the sogt gel to glue the windows. I send photos in this email. I'm quite concerned about how I can make the fabric "give" back to its original size or at least get close to that size. I'm not sure if this will happen when I paint the whole piece and the canvas absorbs some paint in the spaces that are still unpainted... but I suspect not. I wondered if ironing on the reverse side would help but I have a feeling it might melt the soft gel. Please, any advice to fix the situation will be very helpful.Best

Acrylic paint on aluminum support

Question asked 2023-09-04 20:39:24 ... Most recent comment 2023-09-05 11:36:14
Acrylic

​How do I prepare the aluminum support to paint with acrylic?

painting vinyl paint over the top of acrylic

Question asked 2023-08-27 23:41:59 ... Most recent comment 2023-08-28 11:58:09
Acrylic Other

Is it safe to paint a layer of acrylic on a canvas and then when dry paint with Flashe vinyl paint over the top?

Reaction of Lead Alkyd Primer on Solid Rose Gold and Copper

Question asked 2023-08-22 07:46:27 ... Most recent comment 2023-08-24 12:43:02
Oil Paint Rigid Supports Alkyd

Hello,

I've been testing Rublev Lead Alkyd Ground on rose gold and copper (for a miniature painting in oils, fitted into a jewellery piece), and would be very grateful for any insight into a particular reaction I’ve been getting.

I’ve asked on this wonderful forum before about painting in oils on solid 22ct gold (I’ve been working on a few of these pieces in the interim, trying to find the best primers, mediums and varnishes!) and have only just got hold of some Lead Alkyd Ground in the UK. Apart from the benefits of lead for the paint film, the later pieces have now switched to a rose gold support; since this contains more copper, I thought that using a lead primer would be even more beneficial.

My first question is a fact-check about the idea that lead binds advantageously to copper through a chemical reaction: I’ve read this several times online, usually from artists – is there actually any truth to this and if so does it create a stronger bond between metal and primer?

My second question is about a strange effect I get when brushing it out (I’m working on a 1cm high oval so it needs to be perfectly smooth at that scale, so I brush it out a lot more than usual). After lots of smoothing, the white primer turned grey, and even stained my brush tip grey! When I wiped it off the gold, it looked like black powdery tarnish on the rag.

It did the same thing on both the rose gold and a pure copper test piece (which I assumed ruled out the gold and silver in the rose gold). I used two different synthetic brushes to try and rule out contaminants. If I didn’t brush it much, it looked absolutely normal on both supports (but then I’d have to sand down lead primer!)

I'm wondering what this chemical reaction is please, and if it would compromise the painting? If it's just the advantageous reaction of copper and lead, and I brought the product to the surface by brushing, then great – I’ll just have to brighten it with a first coat of white paint! I asked Natural Pigments this question, but they weren’t sure why this could be happening.

Phew - thanks for reading all this, and any help would be very much appreciated!

Ellie

MDF prep with Acrylic Primer and oil

Question asked 2023-08-17 12:42:15 ... Most recent comment 2023-08-22 14:18:54
Rigid Supports

​  Someone on another forum posted an intriguing question. The instructor in an art class they had attended prepared MDF panels with one coat of acrylic primer and when dry applied a thin coat of linseed oil that was allowed to dry.  The panels were then used for oil painting. The surface was said to be less absorbant and smoother to paint on than just painting on plain acrylic primer.   It begs questions about the number of layers of primer that should be applied as well as there being no mention of sizing before the priming but my main question is this: Is it a viable practice to apply a thin layer of linseed oil over acrylic primer and then, once that has cured, apply oil paint over that? Will the oil affect adhesion?  

monofilament polyester mesh (silkscreen mesh) for art and artwork conservation

Question asked 2023-08-15 16:59:16 ... Most recent comment 2023-08-15 16:55:00
Acrylic Art Conservation Topics Flexible Supports

Hello,

Does anyone have information on using silkscreen mesh to reinforce paper or other supports for acrylic paint? I ask because at least one art supply vendor offers Pe-Cap monofilament mesh as a material for lining artwork.

A couple of questions that occur to me:

Is a monofilament better or worse than a multi-filament mesh for this purpose?

What mesh density and materail is best?

Is the mesh fabric durable?

What adhesive should be used?

Will acrylic adhere to the mesh?

watercolor on a chalk gesso ground with a MDF substrate?

Question asked 2023-08-12 14:25:37 ... Most recent comment 2023-08-15 13:35:22
Watercolor Rigid Supports Grounds / Priming

​Hi Forum, 

I'm about to prepare a few untempered 9 x 12 x 1/8th thick" MDF panels with chalk gesso for some new paintings. While reading up on my procedure in Gottsegen he mentions that a chalk gesso ground can also be used for watercolours. Ha! I intuited that recently so it sounds interesting. 

I'm already a big fan of 300 gr., hot pressed watercolor blocks, so I thought I might try it. It occured to me that glueing some thin cotton or linen fabric to the substrate before applying the gesso may add a slightly desirable tactile softness and absorbency to my watercolours. I have already experienced that softness with egg tempera - which in such cases was retrograde to my desire. For I find the crispest edges in ET are achieved on a gessoed ground applied directly to plywood or hard MDF.

Any comments or experience regarding the tactile quality or increased absorbency of painting watercolours on a rigid support covered with a chalk gesso ground?

second coat picked up underpainting: best layering practices for oil paint?

Question asked 2023-07-27 15:59:11 ... Most recent comment 2023-07-30 22:55:14
Oil Paint

​Dear MITRA, 

I had something unexpected happen in the studio this week, so I welome your guidance. Some background on my practice is that I have painted for decades, and use high quality artist's materials -- professional grade walnut oil-based paints with that manufacturer's walnut oil-alkyd medium, and a little high quality OMS, on a substrate of oil primer applied on a recommended brand of panel for longevity. For my current project, I am using almost all transparent colors, and have introduced a few new-to-me pigments to my palette. I use very little medium and OMS, so my pigments are definitely not underbound (nor overly oily).

I am working more rapidly than usual due to a deadline, but my initial underpainting layer (applied very thinly and in many places, wiped even thinner with a rag to achieve lighter values) had been drying for three weeks in a studio where I am currently running two dehumidifiers. This underpainting certainly seemed dry enough for a second layer, and in the first area (the face of a portrait) the first layer behaved as expected as I applied a thicker top layer (though still not "thick" per se). However, after I had been working on the hair for awhile, I wondered at first if a brown admixture was being picked up by the brush in a couple of areas, but it seemed to be glazing on since the brush didn't appear to be picking up any of the earlier pigment. I even wiped off the second coat in one small area to check, but the underpainting seemed intact, so I proceded to work. Then on the very last area where I was applying the second coat, I realized that the brush actually *was* picking up some of the earlier pigment. 

I recall seeing a scale for the multiple stages of first-layer oil drying hardness from touch dry to bone dry but I can't find it now -- I just recall that my former "bone dry" habit wasn't actually the best for longevity, and that the fingernail test (which I did find referenced in a couple of previous posts here) was a good rule of thumb (no pun intended) for when a first layer is ready for a second layer. 

It is what it is for now for me to meet this intense exhibition deadline, but does this sound like I might have longevity issues in the future with this particular work due to this situation?    

I really appreciate your help and time. 

Amy

Pigment Marker under Oil Paint

Question asked 2023-07-23 13:53:33 ... Most recent comment 2023-07-26 18:47:08
Pigments Oil Paint

I'm working on Ampersand Gessobord and painted transparent oil stick and oil paint over some line work done in pigment marker. At the moment, the marker lines don't seem to be budging. Will they bleed or change over time?

India Ink and Acrylics

Question asked 2023-07-22 13:27:58 ... Most recent comment 2023-07-22 13:25:00
Ink Acrylic

​Hi! Is it ever okay to paint acrylics over India Ink? Will acrylics compromise a layer of India Ink that is completely dry?

Which oil to use to make Sun Thickened Linseed oil.

Question asked 2023-07-13 03:48:10 ... Most recent comment 2023-07-18 03:13:02
Drying Oils

​All the tutorials I've seen start with raw linseed oil. Would starting with boiled or refined work as well?

Thanks!

Cleaning Unvarnished Acrylic Paintings

Question asked 2023-07-01 11:00:58 ... Most recent comment 2023-07-07 06:09:17
Acrylic Art Conservation Topics

What is the best way to clean unvarnished, unframed acrylic paintings on canvas, canvas board and Ampersand Gesso Board? They range from six years to six weeks old. They are fine now, I just want to keep them looking their best without damaging them. They hang on the wall or propped up on a shelf vertically for viewing. Thank you.

Reducing the percentage of aluminum stearate in paint.

Question asked 2023-06-01 09:31:31 ... Most recent comment 2023-06-05 04:37:05
Oil Paint

Greetings,

I came across a video that describes a technique to reduce the percentage of aluminum stearate in student grade paint. As I have quite a few tubes of Talens Van Gogh paint, this is of great interest to me.


According to this video, if the paint is first placed on cardboard, a portion of the linseed oil, together with the stearate it is bound to, will be absorbed into the cardboard. This leaves a drier dollop that has an overall reduced percentage of aluminum stearate. The final step is to add regular linseed oil back into this drier dollop, with the alleged end result being marginally better quality paint.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9U5s6t5cxg) 


Can you tell me if this technique actually is likely to be yielding less aluminum stearate in the end, as described? If so, by what amount would you estimate? 5%? A lesser, negligible amount?


Thank you very much, MITRA.​

Imitation gold leaf

Question asked 2023-06-04 15:11:16 ... Most recent comment 2023-06-04 15:07:00

​Hello,​

How do I remove drips from an imitation gold leaf surface? I have removed the varnish and solvent does not remove the appearance of the drips. I believe it's excess oil with some residual oil paint pigment from the painted area above that has migrated down the surface. Thank you

Does enhancing lightfastness by "adding iron" apply in oil paint? (PY3 + PY42 or PY43, PR112 + PR101 or PR102)

Question asked 2023-06-04 01:58:18 ... Most recent comment 2023-06-04 01:49:00

Hello MITRA,​

I received a gift of half a dozen tubes of pigment-rich professional paint with seemingly no strange fillers. However, two tubes have questionable pigments: PY3 and PR112. I would feel bad not finding a use for them, so I wonder if the suggestions from this post could apply with oil paint as well:

From https://www.artcons.udel.edu/mitra/forums/question?QID=776:

“If you mix a small amount of Gamblin Etching Ink Yellow Ochre (PY43), you might increase lightfastness (Iron oxides are used with an organic pigment in the paint industries). Of course, it will affect the chroma and lightness of Hansa Yellow Light (PY3).”

I also found the assertion that “adding Iron aids in increasing lightfastness for fabric dyes” at https://botanicalcolors.com/botanical-colors-how-tos/how-to-use-iron-powder-ferrous-sulfate/.



Handprint.com lists PY3 + PY42 (aureolin [hue], Holbein, in watercolor) as the most satisfactory PY3 in the listed lightfast tests (https://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/waterfs.html). 

If you feel that this tactic could work with oil paint, could the protective measure of “adding iron,” perhaps in a 1:1 ratio, also work with Napthol Red PR112 using a brighter Red Iron Oxide PR101? Or would I just have the ultimate end result of a pure Red Iron Oxide after 50 years?



Also, does anyone know if PY3 ever stabilizes in its color after light exposure? I see it darkens and browns, but does it stabilize into a brownish dark yellow after a set amount of months or years and then remain that way, or does this darkening process last indefinitely, leaving a strange, dark greenish-brown after 70+ years? If that’s the case and it’s rather useless as a yellow in the longer term, maybe the safest use for PY3 would be to use it as sort of an "extender" for dark brown shades, or perhaps a dark Chrome Oxide Green?

Thank you in advance for any information you could provide.

Agrylic ground on the reverse of the canvas

Question asked 2023-05-18 08:29:31 ... Most recent comment 2023-05-23 15:17:39
Acrylic Oil Paint Flexible Supports

​This question relates to oil painting on a flexible support (canvas) on stretchers, and primed with an acrylic primer;

Has there been any testing, or studied historical examples, where a layer of acrylic ground was applied to the back of the canvas? (The canvas would be sandwiched by two layers of acrylic.)
The idea is that it would decrease susceptibility to changes in atmospheric moisture as well as stiffening the canvas.
What are your views on this idea?

Thanks in advance,
Ron Francis.

Pierced Traditional Gesso, Hardboard, Egg Tempera and SID

Question asked 2023-04-29 10:33:13 ... Most recent comment 2023-05-22 16:12:37
Rigid Supports Grounds / Priming Animal Glue Egg Tempera

​Hello Mitra !

I have developed a way of working that occassionally pierces my traditional gesso down to the hardboard panel below. They are small, slightly larger than pinhole "pokes" caused by drafting tools. I had begun this without thinking of consequences, but it occurs to me now that I could be inviting future problems such as surface induced discoloration or other problems I am not aware of.

Limited research I've pulled up on other areas of this forum suggest that SID is not likely a problem for egg tempera on traditional gesso, but these comments were regarding consistently gesso'd surfaces, and not punctured ones like mine.

I haven't painted these panels yet but in the past I have accidentally sanded a mall part of my gesso surface down to the hardboard and did not perceive discoloration on the finished piece.

Am I at risk of drawing up junk from the panel below into my egg tempera surface?

Could I fill the little holes with something prior to paintings?

Am I worrying too much?

thank you!
eli


ratio pigment to oil, or is it: oil to pigment?

Question asked 2023-05-09 09:20:05 ... Most recent comment 2023-05-18 09:43:47
Paint Making Oil Paint

​Dear members,

When I am making paint with my students, I often use the Artist's Handbook by Ralph Mayer, fifth edition, for the ratios oil to pigment. Or is it pigment to oil?

When reading page 63 (right before the charts of pigments starts), I read: "The oil-absoprtion-rate figures give the ratio of pigment (by weight) to oil (by weigjht) needed to form a stiff paste."

But when we apply this, it often turnes out wrong, very wrong. Sometimes it seemes I misread, and it should be the ratio of oil to pigment.

Like with titanium white Mayer says: Ana 18-30 wt/ 100wt. So about 25 grams of pigment to 100 grams of oil. While in the Just Paint (by Golden) article about oil, weight and ratios, it says 20 grams of oil to 100 grams of pigment. So the other way around!

Who should I trust (other than my own results). Did Ralph Mayer make a mistake?


Thanks in advance

best material to size wood panel?

Question asked 2023-05-17 00:35:15 ... Most recent comment 2023-05-17 00:26:00
Grounds / Priming Oil Paint Sizes and Adhesives Rigid Supports

​Dear MITRA community,

there are many conflict info regarding what to use or even if we need to size a wood panel for oil painting.

from on line resource, some saying can use GAC100 or gloss acrylic medium to size a wood panel. 

but from GOLDEN, they revised their suggestion by saying to avoid these gloss medium in any preparation layer if intend for oil painting, so instead they recommend apply acrylic gesso directly on wood panel without a need to size first. 

however, people argue if wood is not sized/sealed first, the water content from porous acrylic gessos would keep soaked into wood and causing issues. 

i also see other people using PVA size to seal the wood instead, however from the PVA size manufacture, it is only intend to use on fabraic canvas and paper, so it is also uncertain if it is good on wood or causing any permanence issues, as well as it introduced additional foreign material that complex the structure as well. 

so i want to ask that shall the best is to apply acrylic gesso directly on wood or we need to size it first, then what will be the best material to use? 

thanks. 






oil on top of acrylic pours

Question asked 2023-05-15 10:38:49 ... Most recent comment 2023-05-15 10:32:00
Oil Paint Acrylic

Hello,
I have been seeing a lot of professional painters using acrylic cell pours as an underpainting and then painting in oil on top. Exemple: Sarah Slappey1
I don’t know if the acrylic cell pours were made using Dawn dish soap or Isopropyl Alcohol. In either case, would it be as archival as painting with oil on top of regular acrylics, or because of the soap or alcohol it would make it even less archival?

Some artists also say “oil painting only” in their info, example Rick Leong2, but me and other oil painters friends can’t see how you could do a bubble / cell effect in oil paint, if that is something that exists that you could point to! Thank you!

1  https://news.artnet.com/art-world/sarah-slappey-studio-visit-2011386

https://www.artsy.net/artwork/rick-leong-bog

using a polyester support

Question asked 2023-05-09 21:31:20 ... Most recent comment 2023-05-12 16:21:09
Flexible Supports

After centuries of use, I remain amazed that cotton and linen supports have yet to be replaced by some suitable synthetic such as, and specifically, polyester.  I stretched a piece of 12” x 12” polyester and then primed it with two coats of acrylic gesso. If I’m correct, I can paint directly on that support using acrylic, so that’s the first sort of question. However, I paint predominantly with oils. Because the poly will not be negatively affected by the linseed oil in my paints, might I assume that a sizing is not required prior to priming polyester supports with an alkyd ground?

Thoughts on Odd Nerdrum & Co.'s "old master" canvas priming method?

Question asked 2023-05-07 01:11:28 ... Most recent comment 2023-05-09 05:56:37
Oil Paint Animal Glue Grounds / Priming

Hello,

I found this video the other day, and was interested to try this method, if it can acquire your seal of approval.

This appears to be two layers of just linseed oil and "chalk" calcium carbonate, with a dollop of color-of-one's-choice for toning. Two layers of this, applied five days apart, and you are ready-to-go in ten days' time. Allegedly.

---

(18) How to prepare a canvas like the Old Masters | Demonstration by Jan-Ove Tuv - YouTube

00:12:08 - :00:12:16: "The canvas, which of course is pre-glued, by all means." 

Additional comments: Though some in this "school" use RSG, this particular canvas in the video "is a "pre-glued" Claessens 066GL." (So, PVA?).

"At least two [layers], but you can do three (as I mention towards the end: the ground will then suck [absorb] much more, but that can also be exploited to your advantage - depending on the technique you prefer)"

 ---

In this second video, this Nerdrum-school painter uses the same method of priming, but adds an "alkyd resin," and relays how this prevented his painting cracking while being rolled. 

(18) Learn to Paint like the Old Masters from Odd Nerdrum's Prominent Pupil Sebastian Salvo | Part I - YouTube

Discussion of his priming and preparation method from 00:05:30 until 00:11:00. I am also assuming this is pre-glued, though there is no verbal mention.

 ---

 

 

This first one, without the alkyd medium, interests me, but is it really enough to do:

layer 1) RSG or hide glue (or PVA, I imagine)

layer 2) linseed oil - calcium carbonate - dollop of paint. five days to dry

layer 3) linseed oil - calcium carbonate - dollop of paint.  five days to dry

 

Any thoughts? The non-toxic nature, and quick drying time (I do not have access, in my region, to some oil grounds I see advertised by painters on YouTube, that dry in two weeks or so).

Thank you

 

oil mediums

Question asked 2023-04-28 05:07:10 ... Most recent comment 2023-05-08 05:47:52
Paint Mediums Drying Oils

Dear Moderator,

​I was inquiring about the ratio of stand oil to solvent. The first way I paint is in a thin realistic manner. I was going to add a stand oil medium (25% oil 75%solvent plus cobalt drier 0.5%, calcium drier 1%, zirconium drier 1%) in the underpainting stage, and then with the final layer add a medium to the paint of 35% stand oil plus drier. Is this roughly correct for oil ratios? The second way I paint is a thick fluid impasto, painted in one layer. What ratio of oil to solvent would be appropriate (would it be 35% stand oil plus driers)?

regards Sam

Thoughts on Odd Nerdrum & Co.'s "old master" canvas priming method?

Question asked 2023-05-07 01:10:22 ... Most recent comment 2023-05-07 00:59:00

Hello,

I found this video the other day, and was interested to try this method, if it can acquire your seal of approval.

This appears to be two layers of just linseed oil and "chalk" calcium carbonate, with a dollop of color-of-one's-choice for toning. Two layers of this, applied five days apart, and you are ready-to-go in ten days' time. Allegedly.

---


(18) How to prepare a canvas like the Old Masters | Demonstration by Jan-Ove Tuv - YouTube

00:12:08 - :00:12:16: "The canvas, which of course is pre-glued, by all means." 

Additional comments: Though some in this "school" use RSG, this particular canvas in the video "is a "pre-glued" Claessens 066GL." (So, PVA?).

"At least two [layers], but you can do three (as I mention towards the end: the ground will then suck [absorb] much more, but that can also be exploited to your advantage - depending on the technique you prefer)"

 ---


In this second video, this Nerdrum-school painter uses the same method of priming, but adds an "alkyd resin," and relays how this prevented his painting cracking while being rolled. 

(18) Learn to Paint like the Old Masters from Odd Nerdrum's Prominent Pupil Sebastian Salvo | Part I - YouTube

Discussion of his priming and preparation method from 00:05:30 until 00:11:00. I am also assuming this is pre-glued, though there is no verbal mention.

 ---

 

 

This first one, without the alkyd medium, interests me, but is it really enough to do:

layer 1) RSG or hide glue (or PVA, I imagine)

layer 2) linseed oil - calcium carbonate - dollop of paint. five days to dry

layer 3) linseed oil - calcium carbonate - dollop of paint.  five days to dry

 

Any thoughts? The non-toxic nature, and quick drying time (I do not have access, in my region, to some oil grounds I see advertised by painters on YouTube, that dry in two weeks or so).

Thank you

 

do we really need to seal the wood for oil painting?

Question asked 2023-05-06 00:01:10 ... Most recent comment 2023-05-07 00:37:55
Acrylic Art Conservation Topics Oil Paint Rigid Supports

​Dear Mitra community,

i want to ask do we really need to seal the wood for oil painting? i am using acrylic gesso ground and oil painting on top of engineered wood panel, called Masonite tempered hardboard. 

from one online source, i heard people saying wood had to be sealed before applying any acrylic grounds, because acrylic product had water, if wood is not sealed, the water content will wrap the wood immediately. but the source not specify which product is best to seal the wood that bonds acrylic ground well.

and i also see people suggest to use gloss acrylic medium to seal/"size" wood panel before apply acrylic gesso. however i think all acrylic is porous, so not sure how gloss medium can really seal the wood? even it could, its water content will wrap the wood first?

in addition, i see Golden is now advising not to use gloss medium any more if for oil painting, they suggest to apply acrylic gesso directly in several coats. then the question will be if apply acrylic gesso directly, will it seal the wood? or its water content will keep wrap the panel in each layer?

finally the thought is do we really need to seal the wood and what is the best product to seal the wood? can acrylic gesso seals the wood and act as ground as Golden suggest is a good practice?

thank you. 



Is it safe to use dyed linen?

Question asked 2023-04-26 05:10:43 ... Most recent comment 2023-05-01 15:47:03
Oil Paint Flexible Supports

Hello!

I found some large fragments of rather quality, thick, dyed (ochre-colored), Italian linen for a good price. I did not purchase it yet.

Is it safe to use dyed linen to create a larger stretched canvas?

Even if primed and gessoed adequately, what risks are there with the dye in the linen, in terms of long-term degradation?

It is far thicker than the raw linen available to me at present, so I thought I would ask.

Thank you very much!

[HELP] best practice of preparing tempered hardboard for oil painting

Question asked 2023-04-28 13:31:10 ... Most recent comment 2023-04-28 13:16:00
Art Conservation Topics Grounds / Priming Sizes and Adhesives Rigid Supports

​Dear MITRA conservators,

appreciate your advice on the best practice of how to preparing an engineered wood support, like tempered hardboard, for oil painting. 


First, do we need to apply SIZE first? some peopel strongly direct wood must be size and sealed before apply acrylic gesso ground. the reason is if apply acrylic gesso directly on wood, its water content will wrap the panel, while if sized with a layer, then the water from gesso layers will not distort the panel. 

however, i had a doubt that the acrylic product used as size still had water content and all acrylic is porous, then how would it prevent wrapping since itself contains water and how it "seal" since it is porous? 

i am not quite sure how much different chemically the acrylic "size" medium different as acrylic gesso, as they should both be similar acrylic resin, then why cannot acrylic gesso be used as size, primer, ground all in one?


2nd, how to remove residue oil on tempered hardboard for optimum acrylic gesso adhesion? i assume the surface reflection is due to residue oil, and i wipe with IPA, but these shinny area still remains. and i brush a layer of water and find it beeds up. so it suggest i didnt sucessfully remove the oil residue. so any better way to do that and method to verify its removal?


3rd, the tempered hardboard surface is very gloss and smooth, so to welcome adhesion i see suggestion of sanding, so can we use scotch brite instead of sand paper? as i am afraid sanding too much. 


thank you. 

[confused concept] do we really need sizing?

Question asked 2023-04-26 13:02:29 ... Most recent comment 2023-04-28 00:29:07
Grounds / Priming Oil Paint Rigid Supports Art Conservation Topics

​Hi here,

i am using acrylic gesso to prepare surface on raw fabriac canvas and tempered hardboard for oil painting.

so from people saying first step is to use a kind of gloss acrylic medium to "size" the substrate first, before applying acrylic gesso. 

my question is, what is the real difference between acrylic gloss "size" medium and acrylic gesso in terms of material? can we apply acrylic gesso directly on susbtrate as size, primer and gesso purpose all in one?

from what i reads, the gloss medium forms a more sealed surface that seals the substrate, so water or oil content from subsequence layer will not sink into the substrate anymore, but if it is a very sealed surface, how can acrylic gesso adheres well on top, we all know acrylic bond on porous surface only. 

in addition, i recently notice GOLDEN company revised saying no use of gloss medium under oil painting otherwise it would crack. so if we apply acrylic gesso, which is porous materila in nature, directly to substrate, what would happen? will that not adhere well to substrate? will that very porous so the oil will sink into substrate? 

OR, it is absolutly a best practice to apply gesso directly on substrate? if so, since acrylic gesso out of bottole is thick, do we want to dilute it very thin for fist layers, then slight dilute in latter layers? 

as i see Lascaux instruction, always dilute very big amount like 1:2 while other manufacture said cannot dilute more than 20%? so i am very confused. 


PAINTING OVER PARALOID B72 SIZE

Question asked 2023-04-24 18:45:28 ... Most recent comment 2023-04-24 18:39:00
Sizes and Adhesives

​After reading over the MITRA resources on sizings, I saw Paraloid B72 was one recomended size. I paint in oil on wood or MDF panel. Are there any special considerations for applying primer/Gesso and/or oil paint on Paraloid b72? (oil based only, acrylic ok, etc?)

peeling varnish

Question asked 2023-04-11 04:51:20 ... Most recent comment 2023-04-12 08:56:57
Varnishes

​To Whom it May Concern,

I am having a varnish crisis and am hoping someone can direct me as to my best recourse.

After spending a significant time informing myself about picture varnishes via Natural Pigments, I decided the best course of action in varnishing a series of four oil portraits was to apply a coat of Paraloid B72 (to prevent sinking), and then a follow up gloss picture varnish.


Technical details:

6 month old oil based portraits

application of Kremer brand Paraloid B72 (15%) with UV protection 1 coat

1 week drying time

Application of "Sennelier gloss picture varnish" (1 coat)

after two weeks of drying time, when I removed the paintings from the stretchers to be rolled and shipped I noticed the varnish lifting in any areas that were mechanically bent, revealing that the varnish had not properly bonded to the surface. I am at a complete loss as to what went wrong. The paintings were created with very little oil and appear to be cured fortunately as the varnish is lifting without removing any of the paint film.


At this point, I am wondering what I should do to remove the old varnish without damaging the paint film underneath, and hoping someone can shed some light on what the problem may be, as the paintings will still need to be varnished after hopefully removing the failure. They are heavy Umber paintings, and I would like to apply an isolating varnish before the final picture varnish to prevent sinking.

I am located in Europe and any products that you may recommend would be most helpful. I was able to locate certain resins here via natural pigments EU site, but am unsure what solvents to use do dissolve them because they do not sell them on their EU website and I will have to procure them separately. When contacting them for help in understanding what solvent to use they have not responded.

I would be immensely grateful for any advice you may offer.

Kindest regards,

Jody

IMG_1378.JPGIMG_1381.JPG




thought about best painting practice-fat over lean

Question asked 2023-03-04 16:21:29 ... Most recent comment 2023-04-05 00:06:12
Oil Paint Paint Mediums

​Dear Mitra community,

this week some friend send a link on Youtube talkes about best painting pracetice, host by Natrual Pigment.  My understanding the point is paininting straight from tube (paste) thinnly in each layer and no need to worry about fat over lean rule. I truely appreciate their will to help artist iron out this confusing fat over lean concept for best painting practice, however i still see gaps it not covered and hope to discuss with the Mitra community. 


1, it is not that practicle to paint all layer straight from tube, especially initial layer, like toning surface, blocking in, which requires fluidty, with butter like paste it would take forever to tone a surface. so it had to be solvent diluted for these layers. And it is correct adding solvent increased PVC, thus weaker film, however it creates a more porous film that readily accepting following layer and the oil from top will consolidate it as well, so even like water color consistency i not really see any issue as long as oils add back from following layer. 

and since ealier layer always lacks of oil (higher PVC), it becomes critical to add oils to the paint on following layer proportionally, so this makes paint straight from tube without medium not practically possible as well. 

2, besides discussed above, it also lacks consideration of fat vs slow dry color, even you paint all layer straight from tube thinnly but you paint a fast dry color over a slower one, i think it is probmatic as well. the best practice is to paint slower one on top of fast one always. 

3, especially there are many outlier color that is both fat (low PVC) but dries fast, so if you ignore this rule, you may likely to overlay a fast dry phathlo blue on top of a slower dry color say pyrole red.  Or you may paint a very fast drying and low oil content paint like Venetian red on top layer as fresh tone. 

in conclusion, my point is PVC view is a basic concept of how pigment absorbs oil, however by its alone it cannot cover fat over lean concept well, as it both about oil content as well as drying speed, especially when we considered many outlier pigments. 

i do agree due to market driven, most paint manufacture designed more for enthusestic hobbiest in mind who does care fat over lean with lean over fat so what mindset, but for serious artist, i do urge manufacture help artist to understand oil content, drying speed concept to avoid any confusion. 


i hope it may help open discussion about something like:

what you do if you need a fast dry & average to high oil content oil color over top of average to slow dry oil & lower oil concent paint? 





best practice if apply faster over slower dry oil color?

Question asked 2023-03-20 00:01:03 ... Most recent comment 2023-04-03 09:48:21
Oil Paint Pigments

​Dear Mitra community,

in practice we usually may in need apply a faster dry color over slower dry one, for instance, something like PR101 and PY42, which are very fast drying color maybe used on top of more slower drying one, like titanium white or some synthetic colors. 

And doing this will violate fat over lean rule if used as is, but will there any best practice we can apply in this order while still be free of archival problem?

maybe adding oil to faster dry one to slow it down?


preventing oil skinning

Question asked 2023-03-31 05:03:49 ... Most recent comment 2023-04-01 14:00:15
Alkyd

​Hello Mitra, I want to storage alkyd or oil mixed with solvent but it always generates a dried skin on the surface. Are there any products to prevent that? Thank you in advance.

Multiple nightmare problems in oil painting on traditional chalk ground panel. Non-crosslinked, sinking, tacky paint.

Question asked 2022-07-09 09:38:15 ... Most recent comment 2023-04-01 13:57:24
Chalk Grounds / Priming Oil Paint Solvents and Thinners Sizes and Adhesives Rigid Supports Varnishes Drying Oils Paint Additives Paint Mediums Scientific Analysis

Hi all,

I am having a huge problem in the painting I have been working on over the 18 months. I have been unable to find a cause and solution to the issue.


The paint doesn't appear to be crosslinking. I work in many layers, but if I run the back of my nail across some parts of the painting, I can remove all layers of dried paint back to the underpainting. 

I have had this problem before in other paintings, but never this bad. I removed as much of the unstable paint as possible at one point, removing around three months' labour. But if I test the recent layers, it appears that the problem is still occuring. 


  1. Panel was gesso'd with a rabbit skin glue to water ratio of 1:12. Whiting was added in a 1:1 ratio. Titanium white pigment no more than 10%.
  2. Once fully dried, the panel was sealed with a 1:3 damar varnish to turps layer. Sidenote, I have heard rabbit skin glue in 1:15 dilution is better?
  3. A thin coat of ultramarine and burnt umber was used to tone the panel. Potentially thinned with a small amount of turps (I can't remember).
  4. The first coat of paint was applied without any medium.
  5. Subsequent layers have had larger quantities of liquin and trace amounts of linseed oil (from cleaning brushes) added.
Initially I thought that it's because I'm using too much liquin. I do need to thin my layers out as much as possible, to the point where they are extremely translucent, but when the paint is scratched, it scratches down to the ultramarine/burnt umber tone. 
You'd think that the lack of crosslinking was due to overdiluting paint with alkyd resin, it would remove paint down to step 4. It doesn't. It goes all the way down to step 3.

I have used massive amounts of liquin in the past (up to 90%) and not had this problem.

The other issue is that the areas of ivory black are not tending to dry. They will remain just slightly tacky, indefinitely. It dries where I've used larger amounts of liquin, but without that, there's always a slight sticky feeling to it. The painting is monochromatic with large amounts of ivory black throughout. I have also used titanium white.

Lastly, the oil is sinking a lot. I believe that I may have overdiluted my damar varnish layer to seal the gesso. I haven't painted for a few years. I believe I did a 1:4 ratio by mistake. This issue is easily resolved with retouching varnish, but I haven't been able to use any yet due to fear that I'll remove all of the non-crosslined layers. Especially the pure black parts that are slightly tacky. 

It's making painting a nightmare as a result because I can't accurately judge the values. My blacks are appearing greyish. I need to use a retouch varnish to view it accurately, then I can finish the painting. I'm so close. I have thought about whether using a spray retouch varnish would be best, as it's less likely to disturb any dodgy areas. What's strange is that I have oiled out an area of ivory black with a very small amount of linseed oil. The linseed oil has remained tacky.

I would be so grateful for any help with this matter.

Essentially I need to stabilise the paint layers, get some retouch varnish down and finish the painting with some final adjustments. 

​Many thanks,


James


Varnish acrylic on linen

Question asked 2023-03-14 10:57:15 ... Most recent comment 2023-04-01 13:20:03
Varnishes

​I paint acrylic on linen, and am looking for a system of varnishing. I used the two step varnishing process of isolation coat (permanent acrylic coating), plus polymer removable varnish. Unfortunately the polymer varnish is no longer available in Australia, and am not sure when it will be. I am looking for an alternative. I have read that a  mineral based varnish can be used instead as a final coat. I have also read that several companies sell a varnish that is permanent and non removable. Is the 2 system (permanent plus removable) varnish better than the final permament non removable varnish. Logic tells me it is. Any guidance would be appreciated. Regards Sam

Preparing 6oz portrait linen

Question asked 2023-03-29 15:11:41 ... Most recent comment 2023-03-31 16:56:40
Flexible Supports Grounds / Priming

At my school we have 6oz fine/portrait linen and after priming it with one coat of RSG and one coat of titanium oil ground, I'm having doubts about painting on it. It seems too thin and fragile. Unfortunately no one at my school prepares their own linen so I'm hoping if you could please advise.

Is 5oz+2 coats sufficent weight for a 26"x26" painting? Should I add more oil primer coats, or should I put more coats of RSG next time? I was also thinking of bulking it up with acrylic ground but then read that RSG and acrylic is a bad idea...

Unfortunately I can't glue it onto anything as I have to roll all my work for flying it home..

Fiberboard and animal glue

Question asked 2023-03-14 17:48:15 ... Most recent comment 2023-03-27 07:47:25
Art Conservation Topics Egg Tempera Grounds / Priming Rigid Supports Sizes and Adhesives

​Hello MITRA society again,

In Rigid Supports under "Hardboards,Fiberboards,etc" is suggested that rabit skin glue (RSG) can be applied as size to this supports, althought followed with mounted canvas and then gesso.

My question is. 

If RSG can't be apllied over synthetic binders (acryl dispersion, alkyd, acryl resin) how can it work over fiberboard like MDF when we know it is wood fibers glued together with synthetic binder like urea formaldehyde? How can wood fibers then be impregnated with RSG size if they are soaked or encapsulated by this synthetic resin?

Mark David Gottsegen  in The Painter's Handbook: Revised and Expanded edition has table 3.1 on page 68 where he lists compatibility of adhesives/sizes to different supports, but fiberboard is missing from the table. Hardboard is applicable while chipboard is not with hide glue.

Damir Pusic. 


GAC 400 for use in a multi-layed collage?

Question asked 2023-03-06 16:36:11 ... Most recent comment 2023-03-09 13:02:44
Acrylic Rigid Supports Sizes and Adhesives

​Hi All,

I'm involved in a project which consists of rendering/sculpting a rather complex (realistic) image onto a large piece of carpenter's grade 1/4" birch plywood. My ultimate goal is to create a low relief which - after a few coats of acrylic gesso - can be stained (in oil). 

So I've braced the plywood and also applied a light coat of acrylic size (to both sides). On the front I am proceeding to glue in collage/textural elements using GAC 400 (according to my design). I chose GAC 400 since that appears to be the recommended medium for creating and gluing collage elements - and also I use cotton, as that appears to be the recommended fabric type. Anyway, I coat the section to be glued (with the GAC 400), wet the  fabric first, squeeze out the water, then soak it liberally in the GAC 400. I press it into place, blot out excess liquid and leave it to dry 24 hours. After 24 hours, the fabric appears to be adhering quite well to its substrate and is also quite hard, allowing me to trim off superfluous edges. I should note that these are larger, thicker, coarsely textured foreground elements. So far, so good.

Now, as I begin to think about creating the background elements, I expect to be using thinner, finer fabric (due to its capacity to render lower relief). No problem, I have plenty of fabric with different thicknesses to choose from. However, from a working-method-point-of-view, I also know it will be much easier if - when it comes to the details - I can glue in a second piece of fabric over a previously glued one.

Thus I have finally arrived at my question: Will GAC 400 adhere to a dried fabric-embedded version of itself? Or should I use a different glue? If so, what? Would something as standard as Gorilla Glue be appropriate? My question arises from experience since I've learned the hard way that adhesion over the course of time is one of the greatest risks of experimenting with untested materials. Thus I've learned to do my due diligence (even as I push the envelope). As ever, I appreciate any and all informed responses from the experts assembled here.

Yours,

Ellen Trezevant​​

Gum Arabic as gouache medium or glaze

Question asked 2023-02-20 10:50:06 ... Most recent comment 2023-03-05 10:11:43
Gouache

​I paint in gouache, mostly tubed, but also the Lascaux bottled "tempera" gouache. I am painting on linen on cradled birch panels with linen applied with either dilute PVA glue, or rabbit skin glue (RSG) depending on the stiffness of the linen. The linen  is sized with RSG and then 4-10 layers of true gesso is applied as a ground. I want the linen for the texture.

I've started using gum arabic (GA) as an extender/glaze and wonder about long term cracking of the "glaze. Some of the layers are almost all GA (or 50% GA to water) as I am going for very dilute washes similar to Chinese ink paintings, and then more pigment as the subject matter comes to the forground. There is quite a bit of erasure in my process, using sponges and water, much reworking and layerring. The ground generally is preserved although to be honest I sometimes get down to the linen, or close to it. The look of "process" is important.

Q1: I suppose I assume that the interlinking of layers is preserved as all the layers are water-soluable. For example a very dilute initial glaze of 50/50 GA to water on true gesso binds well, and then subsequent layers with perhaps 100% GA glaze medium with greater amount of gouache/pigment, then perhaps pure gouache on that, possibly knocked back with a very water-wet soft brush. So you see there's a lot of back and forth. (I've noticed that the GA glaze is slower to "reactivate" that a pure gouche area and I use this to layer glazes to create certain effects.) My long winded Q basically is: Does my assumption that the universal water soluability of the various layers is sufficient to create a bond between those layers, despite different amounts of GA proportionally, application of water to erase, or pure gouache (no GA at all)?


Q2: Gum Arabic is expensive. A little Windsor Newton 2.5 oz bottle is about $12. A Schminke 200ml bottle is a bit cheaper per unit, but not much. I've seen a thread on using photo emulsion GA on another site but I cannot find anything on the use of Food Grade GA. You can get a gallon for the $50. It's similar in viscosity, and color. I've noticed that the Schminke contains "biocidal products", which leads one to conclude that there is an issue with GA "going off". It smells sweet, and "food-y". I havent tried it yet but as I am starting much larger paintings I need to find a source of cheaper GA, unless you tell me my method above will lead to everything falling onto the floor in a few years. Hopefully not.

If necessary can I add a biocidal product in small amounts to preserve the food grade GA? What would that be? a few dropd of bleach?? Sounds iffy...


Thanks!

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Question asked 2023-03-04 18:17:02 ... Most recent comment 2023-03-04 18:16:00

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Fat Over Lean Solvent Free?

Question asked 2020-10-24 17:28:45 ... Most recent comment 2023-03-04 12:46:56
Oil Paint

​If I paint solvent-free with oil paint straight out of the tube for my first layer, and let that dry to the touch for my second layer, and so on for subsequent layers, do I have to make each subsequent layer fatter by adding a little oil to my paint nuts, assuming I use no solvent ever? Or since there is no solvent do I not have to make each layer fatter? Thank you.

Fat Over Lean & Adding Mediums; Same over same

Question asked 2021-05-24 13:25:20 ... Most recent comment 2023-03-04 12:35:22
Oil Paint

​I'm sure this has been addressed here ad nauseum and don't wish to create more work for anyone.  Can you please direct me to a resource that can educate me on the use of mediums and whether mediums that speed drying are considered fat?

I paint in layers without solvents and am currently using Gamblin's Solvent-Free Gel and Medium, both of which contain safflower oil and alkyd resin.  These mediums speed drying somewhat over using the paint neat.

I have read two conflicting viewpoints over whether the addition of mediums increases fatness.  One opinion is that the addition of any extra oil medium, regardless of whether it speeds drying time, increases fatness.  The opposing viewpoint is that any medium that speeds drying has also increased leanness.

I'm not sure how to think of this. 

Finally, does painting "same over same," as one might do when applying paint from the same brand without adding any mediums or other additives, violate the fat-over-lean rule?

Thank you!

Titanium white in 2023

Question asked 2023-02-27 13:16:12 ... Most recent comment 2023-03-03 14:06:18
ASTM Oil Paint Pigments Scientific Analysis Technical Art History

​Dear MITRA administrators,

Last year (2022) was writen a study: New insights into the deterioration of TiO2 based oil paints: the effects of illumination conditions and surface interactions​. [Thomas Schmitt et.al.] Full text available on https://heritagesciencejournal.springeropen.com/.

Conclusion states "Both anatase and rutile TiO2 based samples showed these characteristic markers of degradation under the visible and UV–vis light conditions used in these experiments. By measuring the change in intensity of characteristic degradation FT-IR peaks, we showed that anatase and rutile based paints facilitate similar rates of linseed oil degradation." 

Also, they explicitly wrote that coated TiO2 was not used in this study. [First passage under "Materials and methods".]

Based on all above, what do you suggest, to use it or maybe not in oil paint? 

Kind Regards,

Damir Pusic.

non-absorbent acrylic gesso is good for layered oil painting?

Question asked 2023-02-22 12:36:30 ... Most recent comment 2023-03-03 13:50:37
Oil Paint Grounds / Priming

​Hi,

i see some manufacture selling non-absorbent acrylic gesso for oil painting, the idea behind it is to overcome sink in with regular absorbent acrylic gesso. it maybe good for direct painting style, however i have few questions:

1, the adhesion between oil and acrylic is mechanical interlocking mechanism, if acrylic sucks oil into them, it means the surface area for adhesion is increase like 3D compared with if acrylic not absorb oil that adhesion is only at surface like 2D. so does this mean the adhesion of non-absorbent acrylic gesso is weaker?


2, with absorbent gesso, if painting in layer, because it sucks oil into ground, it systematically fat over lean as the lower layer gives oil so it becomes leaner once applied. however if it is not absorbent, then the layer will not gives its oil, so it may becomes more critical to judge oil content of each tube? which is very difficult. 

hope to see your comments! 

Seeking clarification about tooth

Question asked 2021-05-03 12:11:48 ... Most recent comment 2023-02-21 22:59:12
Grounds / Priming Oil Paint

Hi everyone, I was hoping to gain some clarification about tooth with regards to acrylic "gesso". I primed some canvases last week with Golden's acrylic gesso and am currently waiting a week for them to be fully dry. I have also been reading several commenters saying the surface is slick and not toothy enough for their liking with this brand (however most painter's I've asked swear by it, so I don't know if that's a common complaint). 

On Justpaint they had this line that intrigued me: “A toothy surface has adequate micro-texture to allow a subsequent coating to physically conform to that texture.” Is that suggesting that tooth is on a microscopic level and not necessarily a tactile observation? Could a gesso be slick to the touch, but actually microscopically mechanically bind? 

Or is it a little bit of both, like could a very textured-in-application but lower quality acrylic gesso make up somewhat for the lack of microscopic adhesion. 

I hope what I'm asking makes sense! 

Thank you!

-Tony

thoughts on oil ground?

Question asked 2023-02-20 12:59:26 ... Most recent comment 2023-02-20 17:18:35
Oil Paint

​i have few questions regards oil ground, hope get advices:

1, how does fat over lean works out on oil ground? as we know, oil ground is not really lean, so when you apply highly diluted first layer, probably be leaner than oil ground, then will that break fat over lean rule, that causing issues?

2, does the oil paint adheres oil ground really good? i read a book saying oil paint may not adheres to oil ground, which i think makes sense especially when the oil ground cures in relative longer time that it forms a film that sealed, so not sure if oil paint layer would adhere there any good? by contrast, traditional gesso or acrylic gesso dries with good porosity and oil can sink into them for good interlocking adhesion. 

3, oil ground seperate from size? many people against acrylic gesso is saying oil may seperate from acrylic due to different flexibility, then will the same hold true for oil ground may seperate from acrylic/PVA size?

​4, does alkyd ground will also becomes brittle over time?

does tempered hardboard really a permenant archival substrate?

Question asked 2023-02-14 13:05:07 ... Most recent comment 2023-02-20 12:39:14
Rigid Supports

​Dear conservators,

i understand some drawbacks of hardboard like the corner is easily damaged but that can be resolved with care or frame around corner.

so my question is limited as regards tempered hardboard permenance with acrylic gesso primed for oil painting. As today even smaller amount oil used, but it still contains oil residue, so:

1, will the remaining oil residue (even not a continous film) on the surface or below the surface may migrating out that result seperation of gesso layer in longer time?

2, since drying oil will be brittle over time, does that the oil in the tempered board when brittled will negative affect the stability of the panel?

3, i heard lignin the natrual "glue" hold the filbers is pretty volitale that will leave the surface, so does this mean in a longer time, when enough lignin left, the panel will degrade down to fibers again?

4, to brace it, what kind of wood bar will be best and what kind of glue can be use, does regular wood glue is suitable? i am afraid if the panel may bow, the internal bond of wood particles will be less than the glue and the board get delaminated in long run. 

5, will it be a good idea to use varnish like Gamver to apply on the back side of panel to prevent moisture coming in and lignin lossing out?

Water mixable oil paint

Question asked 2023-02-18 08:30:26 ... Most recent comment 2023-02-20 12:19:22
Oil Paint

​Any insight into the archival properties of using water mixable oil paints either alone, or as underpainting?

Cradling panels directlly or after primer/ground?

Question asked 2023-02-15 13:10:52 ... Most recent comment 2023-02-16 12:32:52
Grounds / Priming Rigid Supports

Hello,

For the first time I will try to brace my mdf panels. I read Rigid suports reference but still would like to gain further clarification.

When to glue wooden braces to reverse side of panel, after size but before gesso ground or after gesso ground but before primuersel?

Above I use term "primuersel" meaning thin oil ground applied on top of animal glue gesso as was desribed in book Rembrandt:Art in the making. I know about hygroscopic nature of animal glue.

Kind regards,

Damir Pusic.


Differences between black oils

Question asked 2023-02-07 07:03:40 ... Most recent comment 2023-02-10 18:28:23
Drying Oils

Hello

Black oil by Natural pigments is made from linseed oil and litharge (lead oxide): https://www.naturalpigments.com/dark-drying-oil-black-oil.html

Recently I found out, that Holbein also offers Black oil, however according to description, this one is made from linseed oil and lead white (translated website): https://holbein--shop-com.translate.goog/?pid=147464018&_x_tr_sl=ja&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=sk&_x_tr_pto=wapp

Can you estimate, how the different form of lead (i.e. lead white instead of lead oxide) affects properties and behavior of black oil? 


Ivan

Egg tempera in fountain pen

Question asked 2023-02-05 14:28:59 ... Most recent comment 2023-02-08 11:03:03
Pen Ink Egg Tempera Drawing Materials

Hello,

Recently I started to use egg tempera (yolk+water and carbon black pigment) instead of pigmented indian ink to draw on paper.  I draw in closed room now in winter and would like to avoid hydrocarbons in indian ink.  The problem is that steel nib dip pen asks for frequent diping in egg tempera, so I think I will try to use fountain pen instead. On market there are ones with converter i.e, refilling option.

Is it possible to use fountain nib pen filled with egg tempera instead indian ink to draw on paper? 

Anyone have experience, Koo?

Kind regards,

DamirP.

Strange behaviour of Canada Balsam

Question asked 2023-02-07 07:52:57 ... Most recent comment 2023-02-07 09:14:05
Drying Oils Paint Mediums

​Seems that first attempt wasn't uploaded well, so I'll try again;

I tried to make medium from refined linseed oil, low viscosity bodied oil (45 poise) and canada balsam in proportions 60 % ​refined oil, 30 % bodied oil, 10 % canada balsam measured by volume. All three ingredients are clear and transparent, but as I mixed them, the mixture became cloudy. Here is the photo: 01.jpg I'm not quite sure, but I suppose that it shouldn't behave like that... I then let it sit and over following four weeks, sort of sediment formed in the bottle: 02.jpg

At this point, I'm not sure whether it is usable... I'm certain, that this was caused by canada balsam; when I tried Kremer larch balsam instead of canada balsam with the same proportions (i.e. 60 % refined oil, 30 % bodied oil, 10 % larch balsam), the mixture remained clear. In both cases I mixed the ingredients in bottle placed in hot water.

Do you have any idea, what happened an why canada balsam behaves like this? What should I do to prevent it?

Ivan

Strange behaviour of Canada Balsam

Question asked 2023-02-07 07:41:55 ... Most recent comment 2023-02-07 07:16:00
Drying Oils Paint Mediums

Hello

I tried to make medium from refined linseed oil, low viscosity bodied oil and canada balsam in proportions 60 % ​refined oil, 30 % bodied oil, 10 % canada balsam measured by volume. All three ingredients are clear and transparent, but as I mixed them, the mixture became cloudy. Here is the photo:

After som three-four weeks



Sealing

Question asked 2023-01-25 15:16:46 ... Most recent comment 2023-02-06 17:25:35
Paint Mediums

​Hey,


I have a couple questions about sealing cradled wood panels (I know alot of questions have already been answered in regards to sealing on this forum but I will try to not ask the same ones that have been answered) I work in larger sized cradled wood panels 36 x 36 inch (91 x 91cm)  and 48 x 48 inch (​122 x 122 cm) being my most frequent size. I use gac 100 to seal. The problem is working in this size is that I burn through the product very fast even with the 128 oz container. I plan to continue to use Gac 100 for the top of the panel to avoid SID as much as possbile but im wondering if there is another alterternative for the bottom to cut down on costs? since the goal for sealing underneath is to prevent the wood from rotting or warping do to humidy correct? so do you need to use GAC 100 for the bottom? there is alot of wood sealing products out there at big stores like home depot so im just curius is there other alternatives to gac 100? 

is Gac 100 really that special? they dont have the ingedients on the label and sometimes I wonder if this is to hide that there product really isint much diffrent then the lest costly products avaible at hardwar stores. I dont want to cheap out tho, and am commited to creating paintings that will last a long time espeshailly now that I am sellling pieces quite frequently - I want to make sure im not cutting corners but the costs for using golden on large scale works is intense. 

On that note im also wondering about isolation coat before varnashing, same problem - golden only has the isolation coat product avaible in a really small container, I've read that the soft gel could work as a isolation coat but not sure the correct process for diluting it. do you know of any larger quantity products availble for isolation coats before varnashing? 

I wanted to link some of the other selant products I have found online at harware stores for wood but it kept freezing when I copy pasted the link in.


Thanks in advance if you take the time to answer! 


Carson 



Eco-friendly sizes

Question asked 2023-02-02 18:41:55 ... Most recent comment 2023-02-06 16:32:02
Sizes and Adhesives

​Is anyone aware of a size for oil painting that is not polymer based or rabbit-skin glue?

Red Lacquer Paint

Question asked 2023-02-02 15:48:03 ... Most recent comment 2023-02-06 12:19:08
Art Conservation Topics

​what medium is used for Chinese red Lacquer paint

White substance on oil paintings

Question asked 2023-01-19 17:33:46 ... Most recent comment 2023-01-26 15:58:18
Oil Paint

​In cleaning my studio I found several oil paintings have developed a powdery white substance on the surface. The paintings range in age from two years to three months. I am unsure if it could be mold or an efflorescence due to the location on darker areas made with quinacridone, pthalo and umber. Can efflorescence develop very quickly?Powderypainting.jpeg

Medium is either linseed oil or galkyd and gamsol depending on the piece. The substance easily wipes off, though on the older paintings, it seems to have degraded the surface a bit (surface looks matte and dull). Some of the paintings were stored in a darker space on the floor, some hanging on the wall. None were wrapped. It has been more humid due to lots of rain lately. Other work nearby made with similar materials at similar times shows none of this substance. I have never seen this in more than ten years of painting in this space. I'm wondering if there's a way to narrow down the cause. 

How to remove bubbles from a gessoed linen

Question asked 2023-01-25 22:18:43 ... Most recent comment 2023-01-26 15:51:41
Mural Painting Flexible Supports

​Hello Everyone,

I recently posted this issue with the Painting Best Practices group and I recieved great information for how to prepare a large linen but not how to fix my specific issue.  I'm preparing a linen canvas thats 13ft x 16ft and my doing it over board. I only placed 2 coats of gesso and the second coat has created pretty big bubbles. Can someone offer recommendations as how to remove them? I dont know if this is a lost cause or if something can be done.

Thanks and take care 

6b458ac0-c4bd-4abc-9fd6-daa3501d5690.jfifb5ce9b35-c2e3-43bf-985d-aa55b7ad4bdf.jfifebf7c673-c6cb-4cb9-8e21-cccdadd6236e.jfif

Oil paint repellent

Question asked 2023-01-17 19:35:28 ... Most recent comment 2023-01-26 12:56:13
Oil Paint

​In the video "Jean Dubuffet: Brutal Beauty - Curator Tour" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0ooUVvJwdg), at 7m10s, the host says Dubuffet applies a mix of zinc oxide/varnish in order to repel oil paint. How does this technic works? Is there another similar way to create oil resistant regions on the canvas?

Tempera Grassa & Sun Thickened Linseed oil

Question asked 2023-01-16 11:31:45 ... Most recent comment 2023-01-19 16:23:10
Oil Paint Paint Mediums Drying Oils

Hello,

I am new here! I am trying to become an illustrator so I’m trying to shop around for a quick drying (and archival) medium that doesn’t have harmful fumes. Aside from the regular solvent free alkyds, I’m considering two other mediums:

 1. Tempera Grassa

Could I use an egg oil emulsion as a quick drying medium? I’ve seen it talked about a few times here, but not much in detail. 

I’m particularly interested in because my family has 9 chickens in our backyard. 

I’m painting on acrylic gesso. Would it be fine to use as long as I:

  • Dont use it in the underpainting
  • Dont exceed 25% medium by volume
  • Paint on rigid support (ie Gessobord or other hardboard panel)

Or is it only suitable for glazing?

Could I use stand oil instead of regular linseed oil to make up for the brittleness of the egg?

Im also using safflower oil to clean my brushes, would egg residue contaminating the oil cause problems or spoil?

  1. Sun Thickened Linseed Oil

Most sun thickened oils I’ve seen cost a lot for just a little, so I’d want to make it on my own in the long term if I end up liking it.

I’m considering leaving cold pressed linseed oil in a glass jar covered by cotton fabric. The fabric would be held in place either the ring of a canning lid or a rubber band. 

Would it be ok if I only left it outside part of the time? I want to be able to keep an eye on it, I wouldn’t want squirrels getting into it. I’d try to leave when I had it in a sunny window indoors.

Thank you very much!

Maggie.

P.S. Is Tad Spurgeon’s website and book considered a reliable source? I actually stumbled onto Louis Valezquez while researching egg oil emulsions a couple months ago. I didn’t trust his lack of sources, but then heard Spurgeon had much better documentation (plus some friends who are chemists). 

I saw hes in your resources tabs, I’m just confused sometimes when his book conflicts with information on here. Acrylic grounds, alkyd mediums, and alkali refined linseed oil are ok’d on here, but he doesn’t trust them very much.

I’m sorry for all the questions! I’m new to oil painting and theres so much information to absorb.

Acrylic glazing over gold leaf

Question asked 2023-01-16 00:59:18 ... Most recent comment 2023-01-16 16:56:22
Gilding Acrylic Oil Paint

​There are several early Renaissance panels that use the translucent quality of oil glazing over gold leaf. Nevertheless, I always felt that paint over gold leaf creates really poor adhesion.

Is there a sealer you recommend to be applied before painting on over gold? I am interested in glazing with acrylics and with oils.

Thank you for your time and for this amazing forum!

Nelson

Sanding sized canvas

Question asked 2023-01-07 14:27:44 ... Most recent comment 2023-01-12 05:16:32
Sizes and Adhesives

​Dear forum members,

I'm on the verge of adopting the practice of sanding sized canvases. I can thus remove unwanted knots and irregularities in the surface. First, I put two thin coats of PVA size on the stretched fabric, sand it smooth with fine sandpaper, and lastly, I apply another two thin layers of size. This way the PVA mitigates the damage/fraying, and I have a nice smooth surface to work on. By the way, I expected a Claessens 13 fine weave canvas to have virtually no knots, but I guess it's just the way fabrics are.

The simple question is: are there any concerns with this practice that I may not foresee? Should knots be "flattened" this way? An alternative would be sanding the canvas in between lead oil ground layers, but honestly I'm not keen on trying that one.

Kind regards,

Peter

using heat to speed drying

Question asked 2023-01-06 18:00:17 ... Most recent comment 2023-01-09 11:38:01
Oil Paint Drying Oils

​Are their any problems created in the paint film by drying a wet oil painting in a chamber heated up to 90-95 degrees F with 60 W incandescent bulbs?


Thank you,

Richard

movement in a drying oil film

Question asked 2023-01-06 19:13:20 ... Most recent comment 2023-01-08 06:45:07
Oil Paint Drying Oils

​As a paint film dries, I understand that it increases in mass rapidly as it takes up oxygen, reaches a zenith and then reduces in mass at a slower rate before "leveling out" at a very minimal incline,  indefinitely, when graphed on a chart.   Most of this change seems to take place within a few days, depending on the rate of drying.

As the paint layer gains and loses mass, does it also thicken, expand and/or shrink?

If so, it seems to me that the farther that the film progresses through these changes before another wet paint layer is added, the less movement the next layer has to deal with, especially getting past the more sudden gain and loss of mass in the first few days.  Longer and more rapid drying would seem to help in the "more flexible over less flexible" paradigm.   Correct? 


Thanks for your thoughts,

Richard

mixing lead white oil paint with titanium white oil paint to improve paint film

Question asked 2023-01-06 10:59:07 ... Most recent comment 2023-01-07 13:15:16
Oil Paint Rigid Supports

1.  ​What would be a good ratio of lead white oil paint to titanium white oil paint to get a stronger film than titanium white with more opacity than lead?  


2.  Do the benefits/charcteristics accrue according to the ratio of lead white or titanium or does a little bit of one or the other actually have a greater effect than one would expect?


3.  How important is a strong film formation if your support is rigid such as an​​ aluminum-composite panel (ie dibond, alumalite, etc) primed with an acrylic dispersion (Golden) and does not bend or move easily or expand with humidity?


4.  Does the importance of a strong paint film stem from its common use on hygroscopic supports such as stretched linen?   Is it as important if the support does not move? 


Thanks for your thoughts,

Richard

using heat to speed up drying

Question asked 2023-01-06 17:51:26 ... Most recent comment 2023-01-06 17:36:00

​I fashioned a 4' x 4' x 1' chamber with four light sockets, with 60 W incandescent bulbs, fastened to the top, into which I place oil studies or paintings for overnight drying.  The temperature will average about 90-95 degrees F (like a summer day in Florence during the Renaissance, ha, ha) depending on the distance to the bulbs.  It dries wet paintings more readily without the use of driers and if I repaint every four days or so, the paint film will be better "cured" than if the painting had been drying for the same time on a shelf.

Now that I've been using this method for about 20 years, is there likely any damage done to the paint layer that I have been creating, now that I've already done it?  So far, I cannot see any apparent problems.


Thank you,

Richard


Removing Varnish problem

Question asked 2022-12-12 11:38:47 ... Most recent comment 2022-12-28 09:07:03
Acrylic Art Conservation Topics Solvents and Thinners Varnishes

Hi all,

​I have a somewhat perplexing problem. I have several acrylic paintings that once they had been dried for 1-2 weeks I applied an isolation coat (GOLDEN products), waited a few weeks and then applied Winsor & Newton Artists Acrylic Satin UV Varnish (bottle form). This is a removable acrylic that I like the Satin finish on more than other varnishes I have tried.

This worked well, but on one of these paintings the finish was uneven so I tried removing the varnish with the Winsor & Newton Artists Acrylic Varnish Remover in order to reapply afterwards but nothing happened. I tried adding more of the product and more vigorous movements with a soft cloth but it didn't remove the varnish or even seem to soften it. 

I made a test piece which I then varnished with the Satin Varnish and after a few days once it was dry I saturated the surface with varnish remover for 5 mins and then rubbed all over with a cotton cloth and again nothing happened, and I didn't see even the slightest change once the varnish remover was wiped off. I then also tried Gamsol (being odorless OMS) which did nothing as well.

At this point I emailed W&N and they said: "The varnish is based on an alkali soluble acrylic, the remover is alkaline in nature and should resolubilise the varnish so not quite sure why yours isn't working. I have heard of other artists adding a small amount of Rubbing Alcohol (ISO PROPANOL) to the remover normally 10 to 15 % 

As I say unless the alkaline material has evaporated it should remove the varnish"

On searching for the varnish on Google I found this link on CAMEO:

https://cameo.mfa.org/wiki/Artists%27_Gloss_Varnish

This suggests the varnish might be: "A brand name for a Polycyclohexanone based varnish that was previously sold as Winton Varnish. Artists' Gloss Varnish is composed of 46% Laropal K-80 dissolved in Mineral spirits with no additional components. The non-yellowing coating is typically used over oil, alkyd, or acrylic paints."

So following this being the possible composition I tried pure mineral spirits, which again did nothing!

The only thing which removed the varnish, but also damaged the acrylic on my test piece was Acetone.

Luckily my paintings have an isolation coat, but I am now at a loss for how to remove the varnish in the future.

I wondered if you had any ideas or suggestions?

Thank you,
Richard

Artist made mistake Prevention Zinc oil What to do

Question asked 2022-12-20 08:41:30 ... Most recent comment 2022-12-21 16:38:30
Oil Paint

Hello,

I am a professional artist and I used zinc white in my last paintings. It had been years I haven't used it and I totally forgot about the zinc white problematic. They really should label tubes. It was Winton of Windsor and Newton. Feeling really scared and stupid. I used it in mixing with paint to have more transparent colors. In some parts it was more than 15%. It's linen stretched on aluminum bars with a Liquitex translucent gesso (worst case scenario I know). The paintings are finished and going for a show soon. I'm freaking out.

As an artist, I was wondering if there is anything I can do to help prevent the zinc white parts to crack? I know it's not good to oil out at the end, but could oiling out the precise area where zinc white was used could help in this particular case to add some flexibility? Perhaps with walnut oil so it yellows a little less? I would prefer yellowing over cracking and flaking. Or would varnishing help in any way to protect the surface from stress? Or what else should an artist do if they mistakenly used it? Thank you so much for your help!!!

Recovering art from smoke and soot damage

Question asked 2022-12-20 19:07:05 ... Most recent comment 2022-12-21 08:11:51
Acrylic Oil Paint Varnishes Health and Safety

​Greetings. I am one artist of a hundred artists who rent in a studio building in Houston that was bombed last night. The firemen were able to put out the fire and left the remaining studios on both floors with soot and smoke damage. None of us have been able to enter the building to assess the damage. One thing will be for certain, there will be damage. I am interested in organizing an email that can be sent out to all artists to hopefully help them with the first stages of getting our works back to some kind of order if they are retrievable. From what I understand, the smoke remnants is so dense that even hanging out for an hour in the building will leave one's clothing saturated with smell. 

I'm wondering if anyone could help with some tips on the following:

How can we

1. Remove soot from unvarnished acrylic and oil paintings

2. Remove soot from varnished acrylic and oil paintings

3. Remove smoke smell from unvarnished acrylic and oil paintings

4. Remove smoke smell from varnished acrylic and oil paintings

5. (This is for me) I have unvarnished acrylic paintings on wood panels that are for a solo show next September. The panels were coated with GAC100 or Gloss Medium prior to several layers of acrylic dispersion. From that point, I started painting with Golden Acrylic paints and Golden OPEN paints. 

I had planned on sealing the back of these with Polycrylic and sealing the front of the paintings with Golden Isolation Coat followed by removable varnish. Assuming I can clean the soot off of them prior to doing sealing the front and back of the paintings, do you think the layers of protection will help get rid of the smoke smell? Or, am I looking at trashing all of them?

I'm assuming all artworks on paper are destroyed. 

I realize these cleaning methods are best left to professionals, but seeing as how most of us barely make our rent on top of our full-time jobs, it would be great if we could get some information on methods that could be easily accessible by laymen and take our chances the best we can. 

Thank you for any information you can provide. This is a horrible way to start the holidays. 


Sanding RSG off panel to apply an acrylic size OK?

Question asked 2022-12-17 21:39:27 ... Most recent comment 2022-12-19 21:58:27
Oil Paint

​Dear MITRA 

I have some Masonite panels I previously sized with RSG, both sides, to which I glued canvas, but the paintings I did on these didn't work out, so I removed the canvas. I'd now like to paint on the panels but feel they will need an extra coat of size as some RSG came off with the removal of the canvas. Can I just sand the old RSG off and apply an acrylic size? Or should I just go for another RSG size to be on the safe side?

Stretching an oversized linen canvas

Question asked 2022-10-10 18:33:09 ... Most recent comment 2022-12-14 13:21:30
Flexible Supports Grounds / Priming Sizes and Adhesives

​Hello,

​I need to stretch an oversized linen canvas. Its 400cm x 500 cm or 13ft x 16ft.  I plan to use acrylic size and acrylic gesso, for the simple reason that i feel its going to be easier than using traditional materials.  After the painting is finished, rolled up and delivered, the plan is to fix it over flat wooden boards.    I mention all this because since its going to be placed over the flat wood,  since im going to use acrylic base materials for the preparation, and finally since its linen , do  i need to really "stretch" the linen? Can i just lay it out flat and size it and gesso it?   

If this is not the case, any suggestions for how to stretch something so large? Im only use to streching smaller size canvases or preparing wood.  

Tempura work from Reniasaance period?

Question asked 2022-12-11 05:16:43 ... Most recent comment 2022-12-13 14:05:29
Art Conservation Topics Technical Art History Oil Paint

​Hello, I was looking for advice and tips on how to verify if my work is an original piece from the Reniassance period, it looks like a tempura on wood Madonna and Child with gold. 

Exposure_standards_with_pigments

Question asked 2022-12-07 11:46:22 ... Most recent comment 2022-12-13 05:59:11
Health and Safety Pigments Studio Tools and Tips Handling and Transportation Environment

​Hello,

I thought that Threshold limit values (TLVs) or Permissible exposure values (PELs) are key parameters to monitor which substance i.e, pigment is more toxic.  Pigments/metals with lower TLVs are more toxic.  Am I right? Therefore lower TLVs call for stricter/lower mass to space (mg/m3) contamination. Time weighted average (TWA) defining time interval in which this TLV or PEL is averaged.

Lately, I started considering to use PW1 (lead carbonate) and find out that I cannot buy and use it for producing easel paintings. I live in EU. But cobalt and cadmium can easily be bought in the same market space.

Let us consider PELs for these three meatls, the NIOSH CDC pocket guide to chemical hazards lists:

Cobalt metal dust, Cobalt metal fume-OSHA PEL TWA 0.1mg/m3,

Lead metal, Plumbum-OSHA PEL TWA 0.050 mg/m3,

Cadmium metal-OSHA PEL TWA 0.005 mg/m3.

From this data it looks like cadmium is more dangerous than other two. I know that there can be difference in PELs regarding size of particulates (inhalable, repirable), but this is all I found. Why is then lead so dangerous that it needs special regulations?

Please can anyone clarify this very important topic? 

Damir P.

Using water soluble pastels (Neocolor II) under acrylic

Question asked 2022-12-06 13:56:55 ... Most recent comment 2022-12-07 14:28:51
Acrylic Pastel Crayon

I got into the habit of using Neocolor II pastel/crayons as the underpaintings for my acrylic on canvas; it only recently occurred to me that these contain some wax and may not be wise for the integrity of the acrylic. Granted I am using them activated so they have basically become paint, but I'm not sure if this makes a difference. Please advise.

Mural painting on panels

Question asked 2022-11-22 15:55:05 ... Most recent comment 2022-11-30 11:05:58
Mural Painting Rigid Supports

​I am undertaking a fairly large mural project in oils that will have to be done on panels that must abut and therefore have to be fastened to each other on site during installation. I would consider affixing canvas to the panels or working directly on the panel surfaces, if possible. I would appreciate any thoughts/experience you might have on best panels, how to join panels, etc. Dibond? Cradled wood? Gatorboard? 

One of my previous projects was done on panels of fiberglass over aluminum honeycomb. They were light, rigid and strong, but the surface was slightly dimpled—I would want to avoid that in this case. Many Thanks

Under drawing in conte crayon

Question asked 2022-11-23 15:54:55 ... Most recent comment 2022-11-30 11:03:22
Oil Paint Drawing Materials

​Can you tell me if it is structurally sound to use a conte crayon for a drawing under oil paint? Not worried about smears, only compatibility of materials. 

Actual Metals vs. Mineral Pigments?

Question asked 2022-11-20 11:56:56 ... Most recent comment 2022-11-30 10:50:46
Drawing Materials Pigments Grounds / Priming

​I've heard people say that titanium white and zinc oxide pigments work so well in metalpoint grounds because they are themselves metals.  To be clear: Titanium and Zinc are metals (which can, incidentally, be used to draw with in metalpoint).  However titanium white and zinc oxide are inorganic, mineral-based pigments, but not actual metallic compounds - correct?   I believe they work well in metalpoint grounds because of their relative hardness (6.5 and 4.5 respectively on the Mohs Scale), yes? 

Ultra absorbent ground.

Question asked 2022-11-14 13:18:56 ... Most recent comment 2022-11-15 02:38:28
Grounds / Priming

​Recently watched a video on You Tube. The artists Said he added something to his ground that made it more absorbent. Twenty minutes into the video oil paint was already touch dry. My question. Would this trap un oxidized oil between the ground and the canvas?

Bismuth white reactivity

Question asked 2022-11-02 07:43:25 ... Most recent comment 2022-11-14 19:25:52
Pigments Oil Paint

​Hello,

Do you know if there's any research on bismuth white reactivity with drying oil?

I gain information that bismuth white is on the list of reactive pigments. I wonder if it has positive effect similar to lead white, or negative like zinc oxide. If it's positive the leek of toxicity makes it a candidate to use as filler i.e, ageing agent to oil paint.


Kind regards,

Damir P.

Fine Art Shipping

Question asked 2022-11-04 08:20:56 ... Most recent comment 2022-11-14 14:27:27
Handling and Transportation

​I'm not sure this is an appropriate question for MITRA, so if it's not,​ Brian, feel free to shut me down. For shipping a painting, I usually just use Fedex and keep my fingers crossed.  I have a client wanting full coverage - beyone Fedex's liability - for a shipment.  Any suggestions for good, fine art shipping and/or fine art insurance for one painting, while in transit?

Best Way to Underpaint When Oil Painting Solvent Free?

Question asked 2022-10-08 20:05:27 ... Most recent comment 2022-10-10 19:04:22
Oil Paint

​I want to paint solvent-free with walnut oil paint straight from the tube, but I want to tone my canvas and then do an initial block in with a thinly applied fast-drying paint. I was going to use acrylics for this, but Golden recommends adding oil to paint from the tube if you underpaint with acrylic colors (as opposed to acrylic gesso). I would rather not add oil to the paint for my first layer. What is recommended for a fast drying imprimatura and first block in layer: watercolor? gouache? Water mixable oils thinned with water? casein? Thank you.

Satin Vanish query

Question asked 2022-10-07 11:10:20 ... Most recent comment 2022-10-07 11:04:00
Acrylic Art Conservation Topics Scientific Analysis Technical Art History Varnishes

Hi all,

I'm having some difficulties with applying satin varnish (W&N Professional Satin Varnish) or Gamvar Varnish with a brush and getting a completely streak free finish when using smooth panels for acrylic paintings. I've found the best results is with W&N Professional satin varnish and applying two thin coats at 90 degree angles to each other. But it's still not perfect.

I've tried the spray versions but there is a subtle dotty kind of pattern from the propelant/solvent which I am not keen on.

Am I correct in that apart from the impressionists most of the paintings you see and work on for your work are using a gloss finish for the varnish? It seems much easier to apply a gloss varnish and get good results, but then you have issues with lighting and glare when haning paintings in the home.

Any ideas? Is it just a lot of practice needed, or is there a fundamental limitiation with matting agents used in varnishes and getting a totally even finish?

Thanks,
Richard

Issues with strongly thinned paint layers for underpainting?

Question asked 2022-10-04 17:52:35 ... Most recent comment 2022-10-05 12:36:14
Acrylic Oil Paint Watercolor

​Hello dear experts,

I have a few questions about issues with various media when doing a thin underpainting layer for subsequent oil paint layers. I work on canvas board or wood, primed with acrylic ground.

1) I used thin watercolor-like washes of acrylics for a few pieces. Now I learned recently that the acrylics, even though they dry quickly, should be given at least three days before you paint over them with oils. I have not done that with the mentioned pieces, I went straight in with the oil paint once the acrylic paint was dry to the touch. So far (~2 years) I have not seen any issues with the paintings. Does that mean it is safe to work that way, or could strongly thinning the acrylics and/or not letting them dry for the recommended time cause issues down the road?

2) I have also experimented with water-miscible oil paint, and used it in the same way described above with the acrylics, thinned to a watercolor-like wash and painted over with oils once dry to the touch. Again, those pieces are fine after about the same ~2 years. I learned in the meantime that one shouldn't thin down oil paints to that degree, as that might cause an underbound paint film. My question here is, though the pieces are fine now, might issues arise down the road due to the underbound layer?

3) If I use watercolor as an underpainting, a few washes, how long would they need to dry before applying oil paint? And do I need to seal them somehow before that, or can I put the oils straight on top of the watercolor?

My basic concern is the longevity of the pieces. I don't care about them lasting for centuries, I just need them to be good for a few decades, so my clients can enjoy them in their lifetime. When doing underpaintings the way I described above, is it at all possible to estimate what kinds of issues might arise with the pieces, and how soon?

I apologize if any of this has been covered in the forums before, and I overlooked it. Thanks in advance for any help with these questions!

Clove oil usage in oil paintings

Question asked 2022-10-04 13:45:33 ... Most recent comment 2022-10-05 11:24:01
Oil Paint Drying Oils

First, I wish to thank MITRA for the useful answers to all sorts of painting questions. My question here is about clove oil usage in oil paint. I have read the previous discussions, and hoped for clarification or updates on what the conservationists or paint chemists think.

What percentage of clove oil added to paint will cause future solubility problems when cleaning or removing varnish? The Mark Carder paint and medium users have been told that some clove oil will not harm the paint; and that Mr. Carder had verified this with an unnamed expert.

I do not use clove oil at all, but then neither am I a purist in the sense that anything which has been shown to cause problems – frequently in undefined situations – should not be used.

Clove oil: will 1/10 of`% by volume hurt the paint? Etc.

With what solvents used in future varnish removals will the clove oil cause the most problems?

Can you give any citations to further explore?

Thank you.

Cleaning/restoration of old blueprints

Question asked 2022-09-30 02:08:56 ... Most recent comment 2022-10-03 11:36:14

​I'm wondering if q-tip + water would be a safe method for trying to remove small stains from old blueprints?  I'm assuming the blue pigment wouldn't be water soluble? These are small town high-school blueprints from the 1920s, so I'm guessing the quality of materials may not have been the best.

The stain almost looks like rust, so I'm not sure water will even touch it, but thought that might be a place to start.

Any other suggestions?​​

Oil painting smoke removal

Question asked 2022-09-25 10:18:35 ... Most recent comment 2022-09-26 11:10:04
Oil Paint

​I have a painting from someone that is a heavy smoker. The painting reeks of cigarette smoke. What can I do to remove this smell from an oil painting on canvas? The painting is approximately 25 years old. 

Canada balsam

Question asked 2022-09-16 14:26:09 ... Most recent comment 2022-09-19 19:00:10
Varnishes

​Hi,

I am interested in experimenting with straight Canada balsam as a varnish. The Getty Art & Architecture Thesaurus (link below) says that historically it "was found to bloom in moist conditions and darken with age."

My questions are: 1) Does the color darken to gray/black or to red? 2) What humidity level triggers blooming? 3)What would the treatment for bloom be?

Thanks!

Whttps://www.getty.edu/vow/AATFullDisplay?find=%22canada+balsam%22&logic=AND&note=&page=1&subjectid=300012897

Oil painting over gold leaf

Question asked 2022-09-13 17:44:05 ... Most recent comment 2022-09-14 10:52:13
Gilding Grounds / Priming Oil Paint Varnishes

​I will be painting over gold leaf. I'm working with 23.5k gold because I was told this doesn't tarnish and working on canvas.  Is it a good idea to varnish the gold leaf with a varnish like golden archival spray varnish then applying a layer of Gac200 to give the leaf some tooth before starting to paint over in oils? This should help with adhesion. Is there a better method for a more successful result? 

Gelatin and Yellowing

Question asked 2022-09-13 12:40:05 ... Most recent comment 2022-09-13 12:31:00

​Hello, Everyone,

I was interested in finding out whether or not gelatin in an aqueous solution (in and of itself) painted onto linen would cause yellowing over time or would it stabilize the linen?  My understanding with photographs that have gelatin on them that it is not, necessarily, the gelatin that causes the yellowing but the combination of the gelatin with the other chemicals.  

Also, would it be possible for this gelatin solution on linen (that is binding pigment) to "disappear" over time but cause the linen to dehydrate and darken --and where there is no remaining evidence of the liquid cementation between the interstices of the linen threads to evidence that gelatin had been there?  

Any help with this would be greatly appreciated!

Thank you,

​Teddi

Small hole in recently finished painting.

Question asked 2022-09-13 09:51:39 ... Most recent comment 2022-09-13 09:58:33
Art Conservation Topics

​Well, I’m in quite a pickle.  I have a buyer for a painting and discovered a flea-sized hole on the left edge right above the frame.  Which means I cannot easily access the hole from the back of the canvas.   And after research, it seems that patching is a poor option. Removing the canvas from the frame is something I could never attempt.   The buyer is stated she’d be happy if it was repaired or repainted, which I also can’t imagine having to do, lol. 

Surely there is some compund or glue I could gently use to fill in the area?   Because of where it's at repainting will be a breeze.  

Thanks in advance for any help!  tear 1.jpgtear 02.jpg

protecting outdoor vase

Question asked 2022-08-30 17:49:08 ... Most recent comment 2022-09-12 12:35:13
Art Conservation Topics Acrylic Environment Industrial and Non-Traditional Products Other Varnishes

I have repaired an outdoor vase (that had been vandalized), using mostly waterproof expoxies (Apoxie.com products).  I'd like to return this piece of artwork to its original location outdoors, in upstate NY.  My greatest concern is to weather-proof it against growth of algae, moss, mildews, etc. 

As you can see by the attached pics, the surface of the vase (which stands about five feet tall) is varied.  Some of it appears porous, some of it gives indication that the clay (I'm assuming) has been fired in a kiln, and some of it appears to have been treated with a “wash" (my layman's term for what looks like what it was treated with). 

You'll notice the chocolate brown-colored “scar" in the middle of the vase – this is the Apoxie product before it's sanded smooth.  Then it turns the gray color you see at the base of the neck near the top- that's where the most damage occurred.  All of the multi-colored, “mottled" parts – the light browns and various green hues – were present when I purchased the property the vase was on (2013).  I suspect this appearance occurred either during completion or as a product of outdoor weathering.

Ideally, I'd like to apply some type of “wash" to the entire exterior of the vase that would mimic the present mottling or at least render all of it of a somewhat uniform but random appearance – not necessarily a fully opaque coating.  My number one priority is to weatherproof the vase enough that it can be returned to the outdoors and not suffer the ill effects from exposure to the elements. 

Thoughts on how to proceed? Thank you.

permanence of oil on commercial oil paper

Question asked 2017-12-13 11:04:29 ... Most recent comment 2022-09-09 01:14:31
Flexible Supports

​I have been researching commercial, cotton, oil painting papers by D'Arches, Canson, etc, for detailed, preparatory studies that I may or may not mount and sell.  

Do you forsee any problems with 100% cotton papers by these or other companies?

The paper fibers are protected, according to their literature, but the OMS and oil can be drawn down below that surface somewhat, unlke the pH neutral PVA size layer tha I put on my papers before use.   Perhaps this affords more tooth for the paint layer to attach to.

Any thoughts?

Thank you.

PS   I avoid priming papers as I will thereby lose the very texture that I like in the paper, and have been sizing only.   Also, the investment in time and material makes them so "precious" that I may not be as likely to experiment with them.   I have followed the directions sent by Robert Gamblin some 15 years ago.

Impasto_under_oils

Question asked 2022-08-18 12:26:16 ... Most recent comment 2022-09-02 17:33:46
Animal Glue Egg Tempera Grounds / Priming Oil Paint Rigid Supports

​Hello,

My goal is about achieving impasto early onto ground so that I have it's reliefs more or less visible untill the end of painting. I would like to use traditional gesso ground on rigid support, apply that impasto if posssible and then painting in layers with oils.

Please, could I get opinions regarding two following koncepts that I have;

First - paint impasto strokes with traditional gesso (or distemper, I think it's the same thing) on traditional gesso?

Second - paint impasto strokes with tempera grassa on traditional gesso?


I know I could get maybe even better results with acryl or alkyd  ground/underpainting but my passion works best with more historical stuff.

Kind Regards,

Damir P.

Surface acrylic painting affected by insect excreta

Question asked 2022-09-02 10:49:00 ... Most recent comment 2022-09-02 10:33:00
Acrylic

Hi all,​

On a painting I sold a few years ago - with several finish layers of Golden Glazing Liquid - the owners found some tiny droppings from an insect/spider a few months ago.

I advised them to carefully remove it with a cotton swap (with a tiny bit of water). That worked well, but at one of the spots a tiny mark is still visible. It is hard to detect. 

Do you think this might cause further problems for the painting in the long term? Or would it be okay to leave it like it is?

Thank you!

Alternatives to GACs

Question asked 2022-08-28 18:16:04 ... Most recent comment 2022-08-30 13:08:01
Animal Glue Rigid Supports Sizes and Adhesives

​Hey,

Lately, Golden advises against using glossy acrylics in any preparatory layers for oils. In light of this, what would you substitute GAC 200 with? I'm using linen, stretch it first, size it, then add 2 layers of oil ground and last but not least I glue the dried canvas onto an aluminum panel with a PVA glue. I would like to have good oil blocking properties. I've been thinking about getting RSG, but I don't know how it can affect even a glued down canvas. It for sure will have less deleterious effect on the painting given the rigid support, but it can still soften (I think) and maybe move a little bit with very high humidity. PVA is another option but I've heard that it's not good at oil blocking. With regards to acrylic grounds, I'm a bit wary of using them in light of the recent findings regarding other types of acrylics. 

What would you size your canvas with before applying the oil ground?


Thanks,

Peter

oil plus wax solubility solvents.

Question asked 2022-08-19 15:19:06 ... Most recent comment 2022-08-19 16:48:49
Oil Paint

​Dear Mitra experts, how much wax can be added to a blob of paint until it turns the paint  solvent sensitive once dried?

And dammar?

Thank you in advance!


Glassine to archive watercolors and ink drawings

Question asked 2022-08-14 02:06:33 ... Most recent comment 2022-08-14 11:34:02
Art Conservation Topics

​Is glassine a safe paper to use as interleaving for watercolors and ink drawings? I have heard differing views on this. I have used it for a long time, and have never seen degradation, but recently I read that it should not be used for long term storage. And if not, what is a better paper for interleaving of these works on paper? Thank you in advance, I value all feedback.

Preparing wood panels for acrylics

Question asked 2022-08-11 16:17:47 ... Most recent comment 2022-08-11 21:37:59
Acrylic Grounds / Priming Sizes and Adhesives Rigid Supports Solvents and Thinners

Hi,

I have a couple of questions about preparing wood panels for an Acrylic dispersion prime coat (Golden Gesso). I will ultimately be painting acrylics on top of the primed panels.

1. I have purchased the Zinsser bull’s-eye shellac (yellow label), But then spoke with a materials specialist at Golden and was recommended Midway Polyacrylic. Does you know if one is better than the other for a wooden panels? Can I use either with success to prevent checking and SID, while reducing warping due to changes in humidity? I have listed ingredients of both materials below. If neither would be appropriate, can you please recommend a consumer brand?

* I am no longer using GAC 100 or Gloss Medium to seal wood prior to acrylic dispersion. Recently, Golden came out with information stating that tiny cracks occurred through the acrylic dispersion when wood panels were coated with these materials. For most acrylic painters it is not significant, but I want flexibility and assurance that I’m not going to have fine cracks if I decide to paint thin layers in some areas of my painting.

2. The materials specialist I spoke with at Golden recommended a "spit coat" diluted with alcohol. Do you know what type of alcohol to use to dilute either brand and what the ratio would be for the spit coat? 

Ingredients:

1. Bulls Eye shellac:

Ethanol, ISA propanol, methyl isobutyl, ketone, pure shellac, water

2. Minwax  polyacrylic: 

ISA propanol, 2 – Butoxethanol, dimethyl ether, Hydrated silica

Varnish

Question asked 2022-08-04 03:38:55 ... Most recent comment 2022-08-04 09:08:41

I'm looking for a varnish that can adhere to a surface that has been treated with wax.

It is in fact a sculpture made of polyester that has been finished with wax to give it a specific patina; the work will be placed outside and needs an extra coating to make it weather resistant and to keep its current appearance (UV resistant).

We are therefore looking for a matte varnish for outdoor use that can adhere to a surface consisting of wax / shoe polish, is UV and weather resistant and does not discolor (turns yellow) over the years.​

Thank you for your time and advice.

Kind regards,

Francis

Rabbit skin glue with vinyl

Question asked 2022-07-20 15:56:04 ... Most recent comment 2022-08-04 07:23:19

​Hello,

I have a friend who prepares his own traditional gesso but then adds vinyl to it. He says that it's fine to do so and that it makes the RSG a bit flexible. 

Is this a safe and compatible mixture?

Best Regards

Hector 

Highliting Ink drawing

Question asked 2022-07-19 10:24:49 ... Most recent comment 2022-07-27 09:07:39
Ink Pen Pencil Watercolor Gouache Drawing Materials Chalk

​Hi dear people from Mitra.

I have a question regarding highlighting a ink drawing. The drawing is done with faber castel (ECO PIGMENT) permanent lightfast ink and is fully etched , also there are some wahes done in watercolor. However, some dark parts are a little bit too dark so i want to highlight them. Which medium do you think i can use over fully etched ink drawing ? gouache ? some pen highlighter, or a polychromos white pencil ? Please send your advices 


All the best 


Marko Karadjinovic

I am away from the internet until August 1st

Question asked 2022-07-13 13:09:32 ... Most recent comment 2022-07-21 11:54:40

​Dear all. My family and I are in the midst of a move and I will not really have access nor the time to respond to questions here. Sorry for any inconvenience.

Collage, sculpting, or molding: possible fillers and/or mediums?

Question asked 2022-07-13 08:10:11 ... Most recent comment 2022-07-13 16:30:33

​Hello All,

I'm in the think-tank stage of a new project. I want to create a (mono-chromatic) "painting" whose main visual interest will rely on the sculpting of a series of low relief images (think a modern version of Ghiberti's doors). It will be executed upon a number of small hardwood panels which, when assembled together, will create one large composite image, of say 3 1/2 feet x 5 1/2 feet or so. 

My main question is what should I use for my sculpting material? In the past I have tried:

Acrylic molding pastes (on HDF) are OK, but they dry too fast and I have found them to be both too coarse and way too heavy. 

I've done some low relief sculpting (on HDF) using traditional gesso (pastiglia). It was OK, but was very consuming to create even a small, subtly reliefed surface. 

I have created collages using pieces of fabric, attached to either plywood or MDF using a strong solution of hide glue.

Of the three collage is very good. I like it since it's lightweight and can be manipulated pretty quickly and easily. However, for low relief "sculpting" it's just a little too coarse and hard to control. So now I'm searching for a (thickening/filler) collage-type substance that might be added to an adhesive/medium which I could use for some low relief sculpting an image (or series of iamges). Thoughts anyone?

I've wondered about creating a putty using a recipe of sawdust and hide glue but I'm unsure for a number of reasons. Traditionally framers have used a substance called "compo" that appears to be an esoteric and toxic recipe of fillers, oils and resins

I'm currently conceiving of chopping up many small pieces of linen fabric, running them through a blender, and boiling them with baking soda to create a paste-like substance has traditionally been used to make rag content paper.

Egg tempera on watercolour/illustraion board

Question asked 2022-07-07 13:26:26 ... Most recent comment 2022-07-13 13:13:15
Egg Tempera Flexible Supports

​Has anyone tried using traditional egg tempera or tubed egg tempera on watercolour or illustration board?  If so, do you need to prime the surface with traditional gesso? Or, can you work directly on the surface?

Back of Paper Supports

Question asked 2022-06-20 08:11:48 ... Most recent comment 2022-06-20 08:05:00
Art Conservation Topics Drawing Materials Flexible Supports Grounds / Priming

​I'm a fan of coating the back of wood-based panels with housepaint, to protect them from moisture.  Is the same practice recommended for paper supports?  I'm thinking specifically of paper supports which have a ground on the front for metalpoint. I understand the weight of the paper is a consideration, and a very thin paper likely couldn't accept any paint without bleed through or warping.  But would a light coating of acrylic paint on, let's say, a 90 lb watermedia paper, and a more substantial layer of paint on a 300 lb paper, be a good idea?


Thanks, Koo Schadler

Gouache as under painting for egg tempera

Question asked 2022-06-17 08:51:14 ... Most recent comment 2022-06-17 13:49:24
Egg Tempera

​Hi, I've begun several gouache paintings on Aquabord  panels. I was wondering if I could finish them in egg tempera, painting over the gouache. Should I use an isolating layer of thinned egg yolk? Thank you!

Reflectivity of Silverpoint?

Question asked 2022-05-31 19:57:13 ... Most recent comment 2022-06-16 22:33:46
Drawing Materials Grounds / Priming Varnishes Acrylic

​Hello All,

I have just completed a project consisting of 64 panels, executed in silverpoint. After much experimentation and wonderful help from the moderators here, I decided to use Goldens's acrylic gesso (which I tinted with a home made melange of dry pigments to imitate terre verte) on HDF panels. These were then coated with two coats of (translucent) Golden's Pastel Ground. I chose Golden's Pastel Ground because it allowed for a fairly easily achieved 50 - 60% dark value as well as a tactile softness. For the highlights I introduced washes of titanium white acrylic. Overall, though the original subject matter contains some high contrast elements, the silverpoint versions of it that I have created have a whispy daguerrotype softness to them. Nice.

However, I have also noticed that in some of the areas where I made repeatred strokes of silver to achieve a darker value, there is now a glare or reflectivity element, depending upon the angle of my light source. I theorize that another coat of the (translucent) Golden's Pastel Ground on top of the silverpoint could be a good solution - because the toothiness it imparts would naturally diffuse the light. Is there any technical reason why I should not do this? Or alternatively, are there other fixatives or matt varnishes that might work just as well?

I should also add (just to complicate things) that I intend to cover the whole assemblage of these panels with some Liquitex (transparent) titanium white spray paint, in order to turn the realism of this soft daguerrotype into a more semi-abstracted image. The coverage of the spray paint will by no means be even, so the image can show through in places

So, if I were to use something (Golden's Pastel Ground or something else) to mitigate the reflectivity of the silver now, it would also need to function as the intermediate (matte) layer that it is and not function as a final varnish (which may very well come at the end, if needed, TBD).

Sorry for the complicated description. Strange how easy it is to visualize something but how difficult to describe it.

Thanks for any suggestions you all may have,

Yours,

Ellen Trezevant

Using a drying oil to "fortify" a fresh painting.

Question asked 2022-06-07 02:59:30 ... Most recent comment 2022-06-15 17:42:42
Drying Oils Oil Paint Varnishes

​Good Day, I recently had the displeasure of varnishing a recently-completed painting, only for the retouch varnish to lift some paint. As I make a living from painting, it is not always feasible to give a painting months to dry. In this case, I was forced remove the offending varnish, as well the compromised paint layer, before repainting some patches that were lifted. My confidence was rattled. Once this fresh paint was touch-dry, I used a lint-free cloth to rub in some drying linseed oil (W&N) on to the surface. I left this oil to dry before varnishing, which proceeded without incident. This experience left me wanting to continue with this habit (rubbing some drying linseed oil on to recently-finished paintings before varnishing). I understand that my paintings will yellow, but as my color pallete tends to consist of yellowish earthy pigments, this does not bother me. My most harrowing experiences have always involved the varnishing process. Fortifying my paintings with linseed oil before varnishing would do wonders for my stress levels. W&N drying linseed oil seems to have "penetrative" qualities - I think it penetrates the paint instead of sitting on top. It is touch dry within a week. If I accept the yellowing, do you feel that I can continue this habit, or am I commiting a cardinal sin? Your advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for the work that you do.

Regards, Alex.​


starting points for oil colours and pigment surface area bibliography

Question asked 2022-06-13 04:10:15 ... Most recent comment 2022-06-13 03:56:00
Paint Making Pigments Oil Paint

​hello everyone,

I am looking for bibliography about the starting points (pigment - vehicle) for oil colours. 

Also, is there bibliography for pigment surface area per pigment?

It would be of much help if you could provide me with such information.

Thank you.

Grinding issue

Question asked 2022-06-03 21:24:59 ... Most recent comment 2022-06-05 13:25:52
Paint Mediums Oil Paint

​Hello,

I grind my own paints using the CPVC and a medium thats 50% linseed oil and a 50% polymerized linseed oil that doesnt have a low ph. 

My issue is that I glaze and i want to properly dilute my paint.  Some people tell me to dilute simply with oil, others with a 50% stand and 50% spike oil mixture and im sure there are many other ways. 

Is there a proper way that one can dilute the oil​ for glazing? Is there a math formula, like the CPVC formula ,in order to find out how much solvent can be used before it becomes unhealthy for the paint?  I ask this bc if there is i can use spike oil on it own in a safe way.  

Thanks,

Hector

Shipping/storing unvarnihed egg tempera paintings

Question asked 2020-12-11 09:27:16 ... Most recent comment 2022-06-02 15:55:42
Egg Tempera Storage Rigid Supports Handling and Transportation Art Conservation Topics

​Hey Mitra!

Does anyone have recommendations for shipping/storing unvarnished egg tempera paintings, especially regarding what material could touch the face of the work?

The works in question have been curing anywhere from 3 months to over a year. 

I considered glassine, but I imagine little creases or folds in the glassine could become abrasive. A thick poly was the other option I was thinking...

Always very grateful for the responses I get on this awesome forum. thanks - eli bornowsky

Sizing the back of paper for dried oil stick painting - Will it help?

Question asked 2022-05-20 13:06:56 ... Most recent comment 2022-06-01 08:19:16

Hi All,

Will applying a sizing like Fluid Matte Medium to the back of an oil stick painting on paper that had no initial sizing applied - help to mitigate the destruction of the paper fiber at all? Will it have any benefits for the integrity of the paper?

Thank you all very much for any advise.

DT

Sizing the back of paper for dried oil stick painting - Will it help?

Question asked 2022-05-20 13:14:48 ... Most recent comment 2022-05-20 13:11:00
Sizes and Adhesives

Hi All,

Will applying a sizing like Fluid Matte Medium to the back of an oil stick painting on paper that had no initial sizing applied - help to mitigate the destruction of the paper fiber at all? Will it have any benefits for the integrity of the paper?

Thank you all very much for any advise.

DT

(mods please delete untagged duplicate post. thanks)

Water Miscible Oil Paint

Question asked 2018-12-21 17:24:39 ... Most recent comment 2022-05-19 14:32:04
Drying Oils Oil Paint Solvents and Thinners

​I see recomendations for water miscible oil paint for ease of clean up and not using solvents.
Can you please comment on them from the viewpoint of longevity?

Ron Francis

Rabbit skin glue to prevent mould on canvas

Question asked 2022-04-30 12:37:45 ... Most recent comment 2022-05-16 16:17:12
Animal Glue

​Hi

I have received a question I can't answer. I have checked the MITRA forums and resource guides.

Can we apply rabbit skin glue behind the canvas to prevent mold growth?

Does anyone know? Thanks.

Convert oil primed panel to true gesso panel?

Question asked 2022-04-27 10:42:11 ... Most recent comment 2022-05-04 10:53:36
Grounds / Priming

20 Years ago I prepared 9 gessoed panels, 24" square, but I never used them. I brought them out of storage yesterday to use for my paintings that are generally gouache/tempera paint on a true gesso surface. (Not egg tempera). The problem is that my memory that the panels were true gesso over rabbit skin glue (RSG) was incorrect. In fact the panels are 1/2" birch ply on 3/4" pine frames (they are very rigid) that are gessoed with an "oil priming white" surface. I don't recall the brand of oil priming. I usually bought high quality materials. The surface is quite smooth, but not without some "tooth". If I recall I usually sized the wood panel first with several layers of RSG, it was a common practice in my art school, though frankly don't know if that's a correct method. (Ralph Mayers book was bible at my school so although I havent looked at it recently I presume I followed a procedure from that source.) I prefer to paint gouache/tempera on a true gesso surface because of the absorptive qualities. (I generally paint in washes, or with a more fluid rather than thick paint, as per another forum thread.)

My questions:

1.  Can one even paint with gouache/water tempera paint on an oil primed surface, albeit 20 years cured? It seems to violate "lean to fat" rules...

2. Can I "convert" the oil primed surface to true gesso? 

        a. Can I apply an intermediate layer of RSG then several layers of true gesso? If so would increasing the "tooth" by sanding with 220 grit or so help? Thoughts?

        b.  Or perhaps shellac? With whatever intermediate steps you think appropriate? Is shellac an ok ground for a true gesso surface? With RSG between?  etc etc

     c.  Is there some other way to "convert" the panels and retain long term stability?

3.  Does anybody want to buy 9 beautiful oil primed surfaces?     

Ha!

Thanks so much! I'm new to the forum and love the nerdiness. I love the deep dive!

Christopher

Alternatives to Aluminum for housing paper artifcats?

Question asked 2022-04-23 13:35:20 ... Most recent comment 2022-04-27 16:31:20
Storage

​I'm not an art conservationist, but I'd like to build decorative box for paper cards to be stored on and around wooden shelves.  I was planning to 3D print out of aluminum because of its acid vapor blocking properties. 

However, it would be cheaper and prettier to use Pewter or Zinc, which I can cast at home. 

But I wonder if Zinc or Pewter will still be able to block the acid from the wood? Or perhaps when Zinc or Pewter oxidize they release their own acid? 

I can't find anything on google about this topic. If anyone can provide any articles or information on the topic I would be so grateful​! 

Sealing a Panel Before Stretching Fabric Over it

Question asked 2022-04-26 19:27:09 ... Most recent comment 2022-04-27 10:18:26
Rigid Supports

​I am preparing cradled linen panels. My  panels are made of 3mm Russian Baltic birch plywood and cradles are made of kiln dried grade A clear pine, or basswood or Russian Baltic birch plywood. If I stretch my sized linen over cradled panels, then coat it with acrylic dispersion ground (Golden) several times, what would the likelihood of the cradled wood panel warping be, if the cradled panel is just left unsealed?  If I needed to seal it, what would be the best non-toxic process to seal it before stretching? 

Sennelier Mediume Fluide Brilliant

Question asked 2022-04-19 13:50:29 ... Most recent comment 2022-04-26 22:17:43
Acrylic

​Concerning use of Sennelier's painting medium Medium Fluide Brilliant with acrylic paints, usually also Sennelier, but occasionally with acrylics of other manufacturers. Questions: How far may the medium be diluted with water before it is too diluted to form a reliable film?  I am thinking especially of the case of using the acrylic more as a tinting medium, highly diluted, for the Fluide than for the acrylic's own binding properties.  What is the medium's degree of permanence? Are there any pigments or paint dyes used in acrylics that are to be avoided when using it? Are there any other cautions for its use? Its handling characteristics and its transformation time from tacky to hard seem distinct from other acrylic mediums; is its composition significantly different from others?

How to proceed

Question asked 2022-04-05 13:15:10 ... Most recent comment 2022-04-07 17:20:15
Health and Safety Environment Art Conservation Topics Scientific Analysis

​hi. I have been working on an oil painting commission. I set it aside to let the top layer dry a bit before continuing on to the final details. When I came back to it, there were these sticky droplet looking things all over it. I cannot figure out what they are or where they came from. I'll include photos, but I couldn't get very good ones. At first I thought it was possibly the canvas panel I bought, but there is some on the easel behind it. I did have a fly in the studio. Perhaps it landed on the panel and walked around leaving something sticky. Without knowing what the substance is, I'm unsure of what to do to proceed. Is it safe to paint over?  Should I use gamsol or some other substance to remove it?  Should I worry about chemical interactions since I am unsure what it is? I am nearly done, so starting over isn't an appealing option. Sticky drop.jpeg

An oil-based primer that dries quickly and doesn't yellow

Question asked 2021-07-12 09:02:13 ... Most recent comment 2022-04-05 11:10:41
Oil Paint

​Hello.

I have come across an Austrailian brand of oil primer that appears to utilise water-miscable linseed oil because it is dilutable with water. It is fast-drying so that you can apply two coats in one day and paint in oils on the following day, possibly because of alkyd resin content. But since it contains linseed oil I don't understand how it can be applied as they say, with no size. They say this oil primer can be applied directly to the canvas. They also say it doesn't yellow.

Does anyone have any ideas about this?

Water affecting acrylic sheen on dried paint

Question asked 2022-03-30 13:14:22 ... Most recent comment 2022-04-04 14:52:22
Acrylic Scientific Analysis

I recently did a test where I used a test swatch which consisted of normal thickness brushstroke of student grade acrylic (no added mediums or retarders). This has been left to dry for at least 3 months. I then brushed onto the very dried surface some normal cool tap water and let it absorb/evaporate over 3 days.

After this when I checked the test swatch I noticed that at the edge of the water affected area the surface of the paint was now more shiny than before (more of a gloss finish compared to the satin previously). It's a bit like the water ring you get on paper how it alters the lock of the paper.

My question is what is happening here? Has the acrylic paint film expanded slightly with the water and has settled back in a slightly smoother layer (thus affecting the sheen). If not this then do you know why the tap water is affecting the acrylic paint film like this? And if it has any implications for conservation / using water with acrylic on multiple layers?

Thanks,
Richard Phipps


Solvent_ph_ultramarine

Question asked 2022-04-03 13:58:46 ... Most recent comment 2022-04-03 16:41:55
Egg Tempera Pigments Solvents and Thinners Varnishes

​Hello,

Please can you help me with following notion.

I just ordered Paraloid B72 in ethyl acetate from Kremer to isolate lean egg tempera (ET) prior to oil glazes and realise I don't know it's ph value. SDS states N/A. Pure ethyl acetate SDS also, while acetone states ph: 5 - 6 (0 mg/cm3; 20°C).

Why I ask this? Is solvent ph​​ important since my ET has synthetic ultramarine pigment which we know to be not compatible with acids? 

One conservator answered me that ethyl acetate is very litle acidic and would evaporate fast so there shouldn't be problem with that plas also that binder would protect it.

I would like to get second opinion.

Kind regards,

Damir P.

Zinc Soaps

Question asked 2022-03-18 14:09:55 ... Most recent comment 2022-03-20 15:31:42
Art Conservation Topics Oil Paint Scientific Analysis Technical Art History

Darkening umbers in oil?

Question asked 2022-03-16 16:02:41 ... Most recent comment 2022-03-18 20:09:29
Drying Oils Pigments Oil Paint

​From time to time one comes across past authorities advising not to use raw or burnt umber as they darken more than mixtures of ivory black and ochre.  Such advice seems largely absent this century.  Was it false?  Were the umbers of the first half of the twenthieth a different beast?  Is it just the high oil content of umbers.  Did they or do they, have migrating micro particles?  One source I read, claimed that underpainting darkening seemed to be blocked in areas covered by thin layers of lead white. 

Interested in all your views.

Marc.

Zinc - Direct Process vs Indirect Process

Question asked 2021-12-13 00:10:27 ... Most recent comment 2022-03-08 16:59:16
Art Conservation Topics Oil Paint Pigments

My question: What research has been done on saponification of zinc production differences between Direct Proces & Indirect Process as discussed in this paper? Has this been explored and if so where are the findings? Has anyone in the oft-quoted zinc research made a distinction between zinc manufactured using the two different processes?

I'm not advocating use of zinc, I'm asking if this finding has been explored because good science should always question things. It's from 1949, I would assume it has been accounted for but found nothing.

https://repository.si.edu/bitstream/handle/10088/95784/Rogala_Dawn_V_-20180502-ROGALA_1949_Symposium_METAL_SOAPS_2018.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

Let me share Antonin's post from WetCanvas earlier this year re differences in condition of various paintings that used zinc:

Have you seen this paper regarding the changes in the way zinc oxide pigment was made during and after WWII?  The original Chinese White introduced as a watercolor in 1834 was Acicular Zinc White.  The current best quality Zinc White is Green Seal French Process which is much finer “irregularly shaped particles of uniform size distribution”

Here are some excerpts:

“The Victorian Branch of the Oil and Colour Chemists’ Association held a meeting in Melbourne, Australia in the summer of 1949 to discuss a sudden and marked increase in problems associated with house paint formulations containing zinc oxide pigment, and to investigate any possible relationship between this increased failure rate and recent changes in manufacturing methods for the pigment.

C.H.Z. Woinarski, then Senior Chemist at Hardie Trading Ltd., outlined the shift in paint production and performance observed during World War II, when new methods of pigment manufacture emerged—at newly built or converted facilities—to meet an increased demand for zinc oxide pigment. Direct Process (also called American Process) methods of pigment production were replaced by Indirect Process (sometimes called French Process) methods, and this manufacturing shift was accompanied by a precipitous rise in failure rates of oil‐based house paints containing zinc oxide pigment produced using the new method.

Nelson confirms that Direct Process oxides contained various percentages of acicular variations on the crystalline form, some joined to form “twins” and “threelings” (referred to as “brush‐heap” formations by Bussell), while Indirect Process zinc oxides (often marketed under the term “Seal” oxides) were typically irregularly shaped particles of uniform size distribution.

Research from the University of Stuttgart built on rubber industry literature citing a possible link between the oil and resin vehicle and swelling behavior in zinc oxide paint films (Funke 1967), and related tests by Morley‐Smith on the influence of fatty acids in zinc oxide reactivity suggested that soap formation slowed with increasing acid chain length, and noted that “a marked difference was apparent between the behavior of the saturated and unsaturated acids, unsaturation reducing the rate of soap formation appreciably”.”

(Link to paper from above was here)

So the much admired condition of Pre-Raphaelite painting may be due to the less reactive, larger acicular particles of the Zinc White pigment then available, and the use of long-chain, acidic, cooked oil/Copal mediums that reduced “the rate of soap formation appreciably”.  The thin layer of Zinc White the PR masters painted into was thinned with Copal (or Amber) medium.

The painting mediums commonly used by British 19th century painters were cooked oil/Copal mediums (art suppliers obtained this from British coach varnish manufacturers) or the popular Roberson medium that was made with leaded drying oil (linseed oil cooked with litharge), heavy Mastic varnish and Copal coach varnish.

Phthalocyanine migration through dry oil paint.

Question asked 2022-03-04 17:52:28 ... Most recent comment 2022-03-05 09:54:31
Oil Paint Dyes Pigments

I've just read a claim that Phthalocyanine migrates through dried oil paint. (Virgil Elliot's facebook group.)
Is there any credibility to this claim?
I have not heard of this before, nor experienced it in over 40 years of working with it, but as an admin of the group, I would like to respond to the comment with more than my personal experience.

Also, is Phthalo classified as a dye?

Thanks in advance
Ron Francis.

repair "family crest" bought in 1966 London, paint is dripping

Question asked 2022-02-15 15:44:56 ... Most recent comment 2022-02-16 12:07:59
Other Art Conservation Topics Paint Mediums

​A client asked me to repair a family crest he bought or had made in London in 1966. Some of the paint is dripping -- not sagging. It looks like thick liquid paint dripped a few inches. 

There are areas on the surface where the paint is tacky but most areas are smooth.

My understanding is that the dripping happened in recent years after he moved it to his house. The object does get direct sunlight so my guess is that heat has caused the problem. 

​I did some solvent tests to try to figure out what kind of paint was used -- Isopropyl Alchohol dissolves the paint fairly easily so I removed all the dripped paint though a combination of cutting the thick drips away and then using the alchohol to remove the rest. 

​I have a limited amount of time that I can spend on this due to his budget and have already applied a fresh layer of acrylic over an area that I removed the dripped paint. 

My questions are: 

1. Is my plan to overpaint with acrylic artist paint ok for this purpose? (I use Golden acrylic for my own work.)  

2. should I varnish, and if so what kind of varnish would be best since I don't know for sure what kind of original paint was used. I have both MSA and Polymer varnish from Golden.

3. is there anything I can do about the tacky areas or should I remove those areas and repaint them also.

4. any ideas on what caused the paint to drip and how he could avoid this in the future? (I will advise him to keep it out of the sun!)

The paint looks like enamel paint and the object looks like it may have been a sort of tourist purchase. I don't have much of a budget for this project,so I need to do the best I can in 3-4 hours. I am a painter, not a conservator.

Some more information about this piece:

The painted plaque has relief decorations and is mounted on wood with screws through the back.  It appears to be some sort of thin plastic molded over a thin piece of flat wood, with the hollow areas filled with a dark brown resin like substance that looks dry and porous.

thanks for any insights, suggestions, advice!

Wyeth's Painting Problems

Question asked 2022-02-09 14:55:55 ... Most recent comment 2022-02-11 08:35:46
Egg Tempera

A fellow tempera painter recently made me aware that Wyeth's painting, Groundhog Day, is displayed at the Philadelphia Museum of Art under a plexiglass box because it's flaking off in parts. While Wyeth was an artistic genius in his handling of egg tempera and design/compositional abilities, he was not, as Dr. Stoner has noted previously on this forum, "a stickler for technique". (see https://www.artcons.udel.edu/mitra/forums/question?QID=332). I can think of many reasons his paintings might peel (uncertain ground, uncertain tempering, working on an aged paint film, adding ingredients like leaves and mud to the paint - he did all of the above!), but conservators are there is to address a great artist's idiosyncrasies. If the painting is visibly peeling, it's hard to imagine a major museum wouldn't attend to it.  Is it a matter of not enough resources (a perennial issue for museums, I'm sure), or no trained egg tempera conservator on staff, or....?  Thoughts?

Koo Schadler

Rabbit Skin Glue

Question asked 2022-02-04 09:43:11 ... Most recent comment 2022-02-08 15:15:20
Animal Glue Grounds / Priming Sizes and Adhesives

​Hello All

Some questions:

1.  In discussions on an egg tempera forum, the topic of rabbit skin glue (RSG) has come up.  I note on the forum that the term has come to more broadly denote a collagen-based, high bloom strength, high quailty glue that doesn't necessarily come from rabbits, possibly from cows and pigs (as on the MITRA adhesive handout, and as I've heard from material experts); and that if one wants to work with actual RSG, look for the term "genuine" and read the technical data sheet.  A European-based commentor on the forum says the term isn't used in this general way in Europe because of EU labeling laws; if a glue sold in Europe is labeld RSG, it's from rabbits.  So I'm wondering, is the ambiguity over glue nomenclature just in the US, or is it a broader issue?

2. My understanding is that animal glue in a ground should be very strong because grounds are essntially high PVC paints that need a strong binder to hold all those solids together - yes?  Is it accurate that the source of a glue (rabbit, cow, bovine) isn't critical; more important is that a glue be derived from collagen and have a high bloom strength?  (Brian, I've noted your insightful comment that 'rabbit skin' wasn't even used in painting manuals prior to the 19th c.)

3.  I've asked this question before but it went unanswered, so I'll try again: does anyone know what constitutes a high bloom strength?  Is 300 considered high? (Personally, I prefer the 450 range).  

4.  Looking at a few suppliers websites, I note that "genuine" RSGs tend to have a bloom strength in the 300s; whereas more ambiguous RSGs (not labeled genuine, technical data sheet says more generally "from animal collagen") tend to have higher bloom strengths.  Do genuine RSGs have a lower bloom strength than glues from cows and pigs?  If so, are cow and pigs glues better for gesso than genuine rabbit skins?  

Thanks for any light you can shed on these questions.

Koo Schadler


Salt technique in watercolour

Question asked 2022-01-31 06:03:17 ... Most recent comment 2022-02-07 04:07:30
Watercolor

​Hello. I have been asked if the popular salt technique in watercolour painting causes damage to the paper. The method involves dropping fine or coarse table salt on wet watercolour paint to remove spots of paint by absorbing it. When the painting is dry, the salt is brushed off leaving speckles of white paper. It is not a new technique, it has been used for decades.

Does anyone know if the residual salt in the paper poses a risk of degredation?

I checked the forum and couldn't find anything covering this topic.

HDF hardboard support for egg tempera

Question asked 2022-01-23 14:43:58 ... Most recent comment 2022-01-28 13:39:13
Egg Tempera

​Hello MITRA,

I used HDF hardboards supports for my paintings (egg tempera on homemade true gesso). I read that it is good to choose a more than1/8 inch thick panel. Since I am having a hard time finding 1/2 inch HDF at my local hardware store, I thought I could glue two 1/4 inch panels back to back using regular wooden glue or white glue. My painting sizes would vary between 5 x 7 inches and 2 x 2 feet. Do you think it would be an appropriate choice, or would the moisture accumulated in the gesso would eventually make the two panels split (I put between 8 and 9 gesso coats on each side and back of my panels)?

Thanks  for you help!

Sincerely,​

Aude

Painting on a very dried oil painting

Question asked 2021-12-23 20:18:18 ... Most recent comment 2022-01-19 10:37:18

​Could I please get your thoughts on best practice for layering oil paint? I hear about and have experienced myself, lots of problems with adhesion and I understand that using retouching varnish between layers and oiling out of the whole surface are both not recommended solutions. I love layering and often will continue on a painting after it is very dry. Oiling out doesn't work in this situation for me anyway as it beads up and also I don't want a yellow surface where some parts will not be covered.​ I have tried 'etching' the surface with turpentine or oil of spike lavender as they have strong bites, but it doesn't work. After the paint has dried for a few weeks I can easily scratch it off with a fingernail. The best solution I have found to allow a bond is onion juice. But it doesn't always work. 

I have heard of sanding but that seems drastic and wouldn't get in crevices. Is there anything that works consistently to allow you to continue painting on a closed surface?


Thank you. 

Unbound pigment due to solvent use

Question asked 2022-01-14 19:31:02 ... Most recent comment 2022-01-19 10:32:37
Oil Paint Varnishes Solvents and Thinners Art Conservation Topics

About to varnish oil on panel large seascape/ coastal rocks painting that took me many months due to high level of detail. Yes, waited six months. This is a major work for me. Discovered in spot cleaning with cotton bud and saliva that with a decent rub pigment lifts off in places. A light rub doesn't really remove much at all. I did use solvent in some places to thin paint (following example of well-known Youtube artist) - it was prior to me setting out to learn about good painting practice.

Looking for advice in terms of pros/cons for next steps. Life isn't black and white, complexities with pros and cons make sense and are welcome.

Options:

Oil out: Risk of yellowing. I assume dark yellowing less a concern if kept in well-lighted situation. Also, good oiling out requires rubbing back which may move/remove the pigment anyway. 

Varnish: Just varnish it - which will bind loose pigment to varnish and create problem later. Perhaps put note on back indicating risk of pigment loss. My plan is gamvar which I was going to brush on. I'm suspecting better to buy a spray? I want gloss and haven't used sprays - recommendations helpful.

Other: No idea. I don't want to act until I have the best options on the table.

Whiteness of polyester canvas

Question asked 2022-01-06 00:06:31 ... Most recent comment 2022-01-06 10:51:48
Grounds / Priming Flexible Supports Acrylic

​Hello

I'm currently painting with acrylics on polyester. The paint sticks beautifully. I've noticed that the polyester cloth is much whiter than my titanium white paints/primers. Compared to the fabric, titanium looks darker and yellowish. Maybe the material contains some optical brighteners - I'll try to find out.

​I'd like to utilise this cool white cloth for bluish paintings. I need to prime the surface to even out the texture - but any pigmented primer would kill that whiteness. I'm thinking of preparing the surface with a clear primer, thus preserving the expressive tone of white. I quite like the matteness of Amsterdam Heavy Gel Medium. If I prime with it, will it yellow over the years?


Thank you!

Oil leached out from a passage onto surrounding underpainting

Question asked 2021-12-15 14:41:53 ... Most recent comment 2021-12-23 01:53:38
Oil Paint

I am reposting my latest question since I now have a new issue, previously discussed under the thread about white-looking filmy rings of presumed impurities that were brought up by cleaning an in-progress painting with artist's rectified turpentine then wiping again with OMS to remove any turps residue. I have another strange issue with the same painting that I think must have also been caused by cleaning it with turps.

This happened as I painted a passage two weeks ago in the area I had previously wiped-down (long evaporated), which to recap was a mechanically-thin underpainting on acrylic dispersion primer. I'm using professional grade oils suspended in walnut oil, with a walnut oil/alkyd medium. The underpainting was done several years ago using a different brand of solvent-based alkyd medium, mixed 50/50 with OMS. In my second, current layer on this underpainting, I'm using a 60/40 fatter ratio, and in both layers, the paint is adulterated 20% with my medium mixtures. The substrate is high quality, stretched linen canvas, and if it makes a difference, my studio relative humidity percentage was really low when I last painted (in the mid to high 20s) with a temperature of 72F.

I've been working on this piece for several months with no issues until I wiped the lower part of the painting with the turpentine as I mentioned previously. It's a huge canvas, so I have to paint one manageable area at a time. What happened recently is the first time I've ever seen anything like this happen in the several decades that I've been painting in oil paints. I noticed after I had completed this particular passage that the walnut oil was leaching out in a thin ring around the edges, as one might see had it been placed on paper or a paper palette. It happened both onto the adjoining underpainting and the adjoining long-dry area with a second layer at 60/40 (the green grass in the attached photo). I knew it would be bad to leave a "bare" unpigmented oil edge like that, so the only thing I could think of to do was to wipe that oily edge off with my lint-free rag with OMS, then retouch the edges of the areas so they weren't inadvertently too lean. I kept having to work back and forth until it wasn't leaching out anymore. There were a couple of places where I was never able to reapply paint on the edge without it continuing to leach, but I was wiping very carefully, so I don't expect it to be too lean at the edge.

Unfortunately, when I returned to the studio this week, I discovered that the leaching may have continued in a few spots. It's hard to tell, since I do see a darker outline, but it doesn't look as shiny as the main passage. I know if I overpaint unpigmented oil that it could cause adhesion issues, but it I leave the areas that they can discolor over time, so I wondered about carefully sanding these edges? It's the only thing I can think of, so I welcome your expertise.

When I was painting this passage, I recall feeling that when the brushes went down, the surface had a different "drag" to it, an almost "squeaky" feeling, so I suspect that somehow, by using the turps, I disrupted the oil layer of the underpainting, though it is definitely not underbound. Would oiling out the next area before painting each new passage take care of this? I don't usually oil out as I work, and I know you have to paint over it lest it turn brown eventually if left bare. If this is the solution, I'm also wondering if this would be enough oil to affect my fat-over-lean ratio. Since it is difficult to always predict what organic shapes my textures will take in each segment of working on this huge canvas, I'm a little concerned about oiling out, unless it isn't as difficult to manage properly as I am thinking.

I don't yet know if the grass areas with the previously discussed subtle white filmy rings of impurities that also resulted from this turps application will behave in this same way. I really hope not! And just to dot the I and cross the T, did you think that I'd be able to overpaint those affected areas with highlights and shadows without those presumed impurities coming up to haunt me later?

So my three questions are: 1) how to continue painting the areas near the passage that leached oil to keep the leaching from happening again, 2) how to handle the now-dry areas of presumed oil outlines that look like they continued to leach from this passage after I left the studio, and 3) if I can overpaint the areas where white filmy impurities were brought up by turps.

I'm attaching a few photos of this oil leaching situation that were taken prior to my efforts to correct the situation. It looks like a darker gray pencil line of sorts. I haven't been able to find anything about this phenomenon, so I can't tell you how much I appreciate your help. This is a very large work for which I have received grants and have a deadline, so for both financial and time reasons, starting over isn't an option.

Many thanks!

 

oil painting on a rigid support

Question asked 2021-12-17 15:30:39 ... Most recent comment 2021-12-20 15:10:48

​Hello

I have read all the posts about oil painting on a rigid support and all of your resource guides. 

I am writing an article about permanent paintings and wanted to illustrate it with some images of aged and cracked paintings so I went to the National Gallery in London today. What I found surprised me and I wanted to ask what you on the forum think.

It is widely accepted as best practice that painting on a rigid support is better than on stretched canvas. And that canvas glued to a rigid support is best of all, as it can be removed from the panel at a later date if the wood becomes a problem.

But the oil on panel and oil on canvas paintings I saw today tell a different story. I know that they are kept in better conditions than your average studio, but none were behind glass and they ranged in age from 650 to 150 years old. Andt they must have lived in a studio, then a house, maybe a commercial gallery, then been transported, all in different environments, before ending up being pampered at the museum. And very few of the canvases had crazing, while many more of the panels did. I know nothing about the different kinds of cracking/crazing of paint or varnish. I am referring to the jagged, dry riverbed, dark fine lines usually visible across light areas. The cracking seemed more to be predicted by the painter than by the support. No Titian or Veronese paintings on canvas are visibly cracked anywhere, Coreggio on canvas was consistently cracked. This makes me think it was down to the painting mediums they used, rather than the support.

Just as surprising was seeing the paintings of the 1800s with thick and layered oil paint on canvas and none of them were cracked. I understood that a thin layer of paint was better than a thick one and that a thin alla prima was best of all, because layering is problematic. These are both thick and layered and only Suerat's enormous bathers painting had a couple of cracks.

The panels with cracking/crazing also sometimes had large raised cracks coming in from the top edge, that I assume are between slats of wood, but they don't always seem parallel. But they also had more of the cracking across the light areas, usually flesh tones. They were the oldest paintings though, from around 1500.  

The size of the canvas didn't seem to matter, some enormous Titians on canvas are crack-free. Now, it could be that it isn't stretched canvas but rather mounted canvas. But the text on the wall seems to say when it is mounted, and these didn't. And in a few cases you can see the cross bar imprints.

So I wanted to check that the 6 claims I am about to make in my article on creating permanent paintings are accurate. These are the very short summaries.

  • A rigid support is better than a flexible surface
  • Alla Prima is better than layers
  • A thin layer is better than a thick layer
  • Use oil paint with fewer ingredients
  • Add few or no mediums
  • Varnish after 6-12 months
Any help is gratefully received. Thank you!

an additional reason to varnish

Question asked 2021-12-15 21:12:10 ... Most recent comment 2021-12-15 22:50:56
Oil Paint Varnishes

​An experienced art tutor once mentioned in a video a few years ago that in addition to the other reasons to varnish an oil painting (protection from scratches, to be removable when dirty, to deepen the saturation, to even out the sheen or change it) that you wanted to varnish an oil painting after it was completely dry in order to seal the painting to prevent it from absorbing any more oxygen after this point - because it would become overly oxidised or dried out if it continued absorbing forever.

Is this correct?

Thanks!
Julie

Artist's rectified turpentine caused white "rings" on my oil painting

Question asked 2021-10-22 01:07:38 ... Most recent comment 2021-12-11 05:33:29
Oil Paint Solvents and Thinners

​Hi MITRA, 20211022_005347.jpg

I began a large oil on linen several years ago, and picked it back up again when I received grant funds to complete the project.

In a case of "what's done is done", since I'd had good luck in the past with cleaning spots/stains off of an in-progress painting with artist's recified turpentine then cleaning off any potential residue with OMS, that was the approach I took earlier this week on one area of this painting. As soon as the solvents dried, I saw a faint white residue that was comprised of many whitish "rings." I had used a freshly-laundered rag that had previously been used for oil painting, so I came back in with another treatment of OMS and a new clean rag, thinking that perhaps a thin veneer of oil that made it through the laundering process had been deposited by the rag. It got a little better (and when the surface was wet with OMS it looked fine), but once the OMS dried, the rings were still there. It kind of looks like a patterned version of sinking in. I wondered if something migrated up, or if I disturbed the binder too much, etc when I cleaned the surface with the turps? 

I use a high-quality paint with a walnut oil binder, so there shouldn't be any impurities in the paint itself. I also follow the fat-over-lean rules, and never adulterate my paint more than 20%. I had started this work with a solvent-based alkyd oil medium, then switched to the walnut alkyd oil medium, though the affected area is comprised of just a couple of layers with the original medium. I do plan to overpaint, though I had been planning to just add highlights and shadows to this region rather than overpaint the entire area -- though if that's what I need to now do, I will. I'm also wondering if varnishing later will take care of it?

I've attached a photograph for your reference. It looks like the whitish shapes settled into texture made by the hand-applied acrylic dispersion primer "gesso", because the paint layers themselves are fairly smooth and applied mechanically thin. (Incidentally, this surface texture is only visible by zooming in on the photo -- it isn't apparent to the naked eye or touch -- and it seems like if the turps bit into the paint layer enough to create the texture, that it would either have revealed the underpainting or the white primer.)

This particular painting is part of a larger project for which I have a deadline. It is a very large canvas, so for both monetary and time reasons, starting over isn't an option. I definitely hope that you won't think it is necessary. 

Thanks in advance for your help and advice. I do hope you'll have good news for me and that this won't cause any adhesion problems down the road. Fingers crossed that it is easily remedied.

Methyl Cellulose

Question asked 2021-11-15 07:27:40 ... Most recent comment 2021-11-19 05:34:01
Animal Glue Grounds / Priming

​There is a 'vegan' traditional gesso for sale (see https://naturalearthpaint.com/eco-gesso-kit/​) that uses Methyl Cellulose as a binder.  I've looked online for the gel strength of methyl cellulose; it seems to vary but I see mention of a high strength version, although I couldn't figure out specifically what that strength is.  A strong glue is important in a ground and I'm skeptical that cellulose is an adequate replacement for animal glue, but I don't know that for sure.  Any thoughts on how strong a binder methyl cellulose is?  

Thanks, Koo Schadler

Eucaboard panel

Question asked 2021-10-26 07:55:55 ... Most recent comment 2021-11-11 20:49:30
Rigid Supports

​We recently got a question on the use of eucaboard instead of the (currently often) unavailable standard (untempered) Masonite. It seems to be a new material that we are not familiar with. From our research, it appears to be a eucalyptus-based alternative, similar to Masonite, so one may need to consider using a SID blocker on top of the Eucaboard before painting with acrylics. Do you have experience with this product or any hints on its long-term stability? 

Panel that is bowing

Question asked 2021-11-01 17:07:40 ... Most recent comment 2021-11-07 01:02:07
Oil Paint

​A painting I created before I knew about sealing wood with GAC100 (now Gloss Medium), is starting to bow. The bowing is slight. The panel was pre-primed with acrylic gesso. I created the underpainting with acrylic paint mixed with matte medium, allowed it to dry for a week, then applied alla prima oils. This painting was varnished about 9 months after it was painted with a mix of satin and gloss Gamvar, (50% - 50%). 

This painting was created in 2019 and has been displayed in a home with air conditioning and heat. There is humidity. The bowing has just begun and is slight. It's hard to photograph, but I'm told it's a bit more than I can even see in the photo. 

As I know now that I should be sealing the panels (and probably not using pre-made panels so I can seal under the acrylic primer too), is there anything that can be done to this painting to make the wood settle back to normal?

Thank you! thanks 

Egg Tempera Marouflage?

Question asked 2021-10-27 12:28:41 ... Most recent comment 2021-11-03 12:26:51
Egg Tempera Flexible Supports Mural Painting Grounds / Priming

​I have experience with marouflage (painting on canvas, then adhering to the wall) murals with acrylic. I greatly prefer egg tempera to acrylic in almost every respect. Is egg tempera an option for marouflage? In my initial tests, it seems to adhere to the canvas well (Caravaggio #504, acrylic-primed 100% polyester) and remains flexible, initially at least. I know egg tempera does get brittle with age, but I'm not familiar to what extent, since I've only ever painted on gessoed wood panels. 

If I paint a large canvas with egg tempera, roll it up, and install it within a month or two, will the paint crack, be damaged, and/or delaminate? What is the window that egg tempera becomes brittle? Of course, if the mural is removed decades down the road, that would be a different story. I do realize this is breaking all the rules of egg tempera (painting on an acrylic flexible ground, and rolling it up to boot), but I thought it's worth the experiment and reaching out to experts because I love painting with egg tempera and want to avoid acrylic if at all possible. I should also mention, these murals are only interior.

The benefit of marouflage is being able to paint in my home studio in ideal conditions rather than spending extensive time on the road. I prefer marouflage when I'm asked to paint murals on latex-primed drywall since the canvas will outlive the gypsum board (which seems like a temporary material to me).

A somewhat related anecdote. I have heard of Serbian mural painters using marouflage on a plastered canvas, painting with silicate paints, rolling the canvas, and installing it. The experts at Beeck mineral paints said they have heard of this, and of course it is not a best practice since it would develop cracks (at least microscpoically) that may or may not be an issue in an interior setting, but would definitely not survive outdoor elements. They encouraged me to experiment, and recommened one of their primers. Would a siliceous primer be better ground than acrylic? Or how would a thin coat of true gesso fare on a rolled canvas? 

​Thoughts? Thanks for entertaining my musings!

-Brian Whirledge​​

Transfer a drawing on a true gesso panel

Question asked 2021-10-26 14:48:38 ... Most recent comment 2021-11-01 14:52:22
Egg Tempera

​Hello MITRA,

I have a question about transfering a drawing on a true gesso panel. 

Context: I began using egg tempera earlier this year, so I am quite new at it. I use the detailed true gesso recipe that Koo Shadler kindly shared on a website (around 8 coats on each side of masonite panels). I use pigments from Natural Pigments and also some from my grandfather who was a painter and got them from a regular paint store back in the 1950's to 1980's (which I manipulate carefully since I don't exactly know what they contain). 

Methods of transfering drawings so far for other paintings:

-go straight on the panel in a Robert Vickrey way, and use observation skills and previous sketches... althought I would not dare to compare myself with such a great artist, it is a fun method but this time my image contains architectural details that I want to transfer from my drawing. 

- charcoal (little holes on the drawing with a needle, then trace the lines with charcoal on the paper and charcoal dust goes through the holes and remains on the panel, tracing lines). I did not find it precise enough and I wanted thiner lines. 

- draw with a regular HB pencil on wax paper. I apply a medium coat (here, I mean egg yolk + water+ pigment) on my panel. I put my wax paper ontop of it when it is dry (about 5 minutes so that the paint does not come off, but I want my paint to be quite fresh), graphite lines facing me (no graphite on the pane). I take a sharp pencil or tool and trace gently but firmly my lines again on the wax paper. Then, when I lift the wax paper, I can see subtile glossy lines on the gessoed panel (does not take the paint off or scratch the panel). However, it only seems to work on quite fresh paint.​​

My problem: The drawing that I want to transfer is quite detailed and the paint will be too dry as I trace my lines using my wax paper method. I hesitate to trace lines with graphite or using tracing paper because I am afraid the lines might show off through the paint (I sometimes like to make a few changes through my creative process or some other times, I use light colors). However, I might be totally wrong.

Thanks a lot for indicating me what would be the best way to transfer my image.

Best regards,

Aude (sorry for the mistakes, I am French from Québec)

Best practice with flexible surface

Question asked 2021-10-04 10:06:41 ... Most recent comment 2021-10-04 12:55:12

​hello

The resource guide mentions affixing a backing board to a stretched canvas. How might this be accomplished? If the reason for using a stretched canvas rather than a panel or canvas mounted to a panel, is that the stretched canvas is large and weight is an issue, will the backing panel add weight? Can it be done in pieces as wood that large is not readily available? Does the guide mean to stretch the canvas around the wood and staple it? Or does it mean to glue panels to the back of the canvas?

Non-Rigid Surface oil painting

Question asked 2021-10-04 06:52:55 ... Most recent comment 2021-10-04 12:50:32
Oil Paint
Hello all!

I know it is best practice for oil paintings to be made on a rigid substrate, to reduce the cracking you get with a flexible surface that also reacts to humidity and temperature changes over time. This would include painting on a wood panel, hardboard, aluminium and paperboard, with a well sized and primed surface, with or without a layer of canvas on the top or muslin embedded in a genuine gesso ground.


But, is there anything that can be done to help make a more permanent painting when a rigid substrate cannot be used, as with large paintings where a lightweight surface is required? What is best practice for oil painting on a stretched canvas?

Thank you for any help.

oil paint layers adhesion

Question asked 2021-09-27 19:17:30 ... Most recent comment 2021-09-27 21:39:55
Oil Paint

If an oil painting takes years to complete how does an artist get each layer to stick to the next? You hear a lot about fat-over-lean for working in layers but I haven’t heard much about beading up and adhesion problems with working in layers, I have had to work hard to find information.

I have been building up layers of oil paint on canvas and sometimes find that the paint beads up on the previous layer, especially if I make the new layer oily. If I make it less oily and physically brush it around alot I can usually get it to finally lay on smoothly but I am finding some canvases have poor adhesion and after the layer has dried for a few weeks I can easily scrape parts of the new layer of paint off with my fingernail to expose the layer underneath. But not everywhere, just in some areas. This occurs somewhat with a lower surface layer that has dried for one week but more so with a lower surface layer that has dried for a year.

I haven’t kept track of which oil painting mediums that I used have caused the most problems. I do rinse and dry the surface to remove dust. I don’t want to sand the surface because it seems destructive and would remove part of the painting that I did intend to be there.

So I have quite a few questions about adhesion, if any of you could help me please.

Am I gently scratching too soon, will I find if I wait 6 months that the surface will be harder?

How durable should a dried oil surface be, should I be able to scrape it with a palette knife and it is fine?

Aren’t I supposed to be using fatter paint for upper layers?

What causes the closed off surface? 

What is the polarity I have heard mentioned?

I understand that there needs to be a mechanical bond and a chemical bond but I don’t quite know how that is failing in this case. If I etch the surface will I get a mechanichal bond, but if the surface has oxidised is it too late to get a chemical bond?

I read that you can paint a layer of medium or solvent over the surface to reactivate it, but it hasn’t worked for me. Oil of spike is the strongest solvent I know and it removes well-dried colour but doesn’t seem to ‘etch’ the surface.

I have used a method of applying onion juice to lightly etch the surface and I can see that it changes the surface so that water no longer beads up on the surface and it stops the beading of oil paint and the poor adhesion. Is there anything unsound in this technique? I wash the onion off with water.

I’ve read that using safflower oil makes the poor adhesion of layers worse, is that true?

Are some pigments worse?

Is this surface fragility the same as ‘delamination’?


Thank you for any help!

Julie

acrylic over very dried oil

Question asked 2021-09-27 19:04:41 ... Most recent comment 2021-09-27 20:32:50
Oil Paint Grounds / Priming

​I wanted to check something with the experts. I was told a few years ago that an artist was told by a restorer that on very old oil paintings they use acrylic for the repairs. I assume this was done to be a visible repair so as not to pretend to be the original painting. But the artist I was talking to, interpreted this to mean that if the oil is fully dried then you can use acrylic over it.

I wanted to check if a fully dry (2 years or more) oil painting will accept acrylic and create a stable painting. And that leads to someone asking me about putting acrylic primer over an oil painting. She said she thinks it is not a good idea but that all her artist friends assure her it is what they all do to reuse a surface.

Would it make any difference to use the acrylic over a varnish, would it be better or worse?

wet brushes and oil painting

Question asked 2021-09-27 18:26:27 ... Most recent comment 2021-09-27 20:28:30
Oil Paint

​I sometimes wash my brushes, squeeze out the water and continue oil painting. The damp brushes do not interfere with the painting process. But I wondered if a small amount of water would cause problems with longevity later. Does anyone know?

Cadmium Orange

Question asked 2021-09-24 17:24:00 ... Most recent comment 2021-09-25 21:38:22
Pigments Oil Paint

​A very newbie question:  A fellow oil painter asked me if cadmium orange pigment would be brighter than a mix of cadmium yellow and a cadmium bright red.  Bright enough for me perhaps.  It would be rare that I don't tone down the brighter colours, but they want the very brightest orange.   I keep flipping on the absolute certainty of the answer.  It's made from the same stuff.  What I mix looks bright, but then, it will be made from little bits of red and yellow, not little bits of orange.   

Marc.

Animal Glue & Bloom Strengthr

Question asked 2021-09-19 08:44:55 ... Most recent comment 2021-09-22 05:40:32
Animal Glue

Hello All,

A few questions about animal glues. My understanding is that unless specified as genuine rabbit skin, most animal glues are a mix of animal sources (mostly cow, some pig) and the term "rabbit skin", rather than denoting origin, indicates a quality of glue: high bloom strength and 100% collagen.  My idea of high bloom strength is 450 or so - but I see companies selling so-called "rabbit skin" glues with lower, 350 bloom strengths.  So...

1. Are there industry standards outlining what qualifies as a high enough bloom strength to denote a glue as so-called "rabbit skin"?  

2. If not, what is generally accepted as a high bloom strength?

3. If a glue isn't 100% collagen, what else is it (aside from collagen)?

Thanks if you can offer any insight on these questions! 

Koo Schadler

Preservatives

Question asked 2021-09-19 09:04:00 ... Most recent comment 2021-09-22 05:33:41
Egg Tempera Paint Additives Studio Tools and Tips Pigments

Hello again (second question in one day)...

I want to better understand preservatives used in pigment pastes (helpful in mold prone colors) and egg yolk medium (not something I recommend, as I prefer a fresh egg, but many painters want/need to make medium last longer).

1. Are there benefits to using Phenol (carbolic acid) over alcohol (95% or higher purity) as a preservative?  Alcohol is less noxious than Phenol (I believe, tho' not sure), more readily accessible, and has the added benefit of being a dispersant.  So is there a reason to prefer Phenol to alcohol as a preservative?

2. Phenol and alcohol are volatile.  I would presume that once they evaporate off, they haven't imparted a lasting, preservative benefit to a pigment paste or yolk medium, yes?  Are their preserving qualities present only when the phenol/alcohol itself is present?

3.  Is the moisture within a pigment paste or medium enough to keep phenol/alcohol from volatilizing, or will they volatilize regardless (i.e. even a hydrated pigment paste will lose the phenol/alcohol content over time; hence more preservative must be added for ongoing protection from mold in a paste)?

4.  Given the above, what do you think of the benefit of non-volatilizing preservatives (such as clove oil), if added in very small amounts?  Or is the non-drying nature of this preservative more problematic than its benefit of staying present and thus continually preserving?

A bit in the weeds here, but curious tempera painters want to know...  

Thanks, Koo

House paint as a primer for canvas painting

Question asked 2021-09-19 13:00:03 ... Most recent comment 2021-09-21 22:06:26
Grounds / Priming

I know many artists that use house paint (latex emulsion paint) as a primer for canvas, because they think that the cheaper house paint will work the same as artist acrylic dispersion primer. I point out that house paint is always sloughing off as part of its characteristic of being easily cleaned, that it is designed to last for only 10 years and that a wall is not a flexible surface like a stretched canvas and that the paint in my flat is cracked all over because house paint isn’t flexible. So for those three reasons it is not the same. 

Though I have noticed a big difference in sloughing off between types of paint  - the cheap DIY paint in large buckets that is used in galleries wipes off white on a sponge, which is excellent for removing a stain by removing a layer of paint, but the paint in my bathroom is designed for water and does not scrub off on a sponge when wetted. And I wonder if tougher exterior paint is better.

Some people learned from art school tutors to mix PVA into household emulsion to make a primer. Others use a very good, one coat, stain killer household paint that says it promotes adhesion.

Everyone who uses household paint to prime canvases gets quite defensive and starts saying PVA is PVA, that house paint is the same as acrylic dispersion primer and that artist acrylic dispersion gesso is a rip-off. They say that the wall paint in their house lasts much longer than 10 years and they only re-paint for decorative reasons. 

None of this is about the usage of house paint for aesthetic or conceptual reasons - they all use it for economy. 

Is it correct to say that household latex emulsion paint is not the same as or equivalent to acrylic dispersion primer and that it isn’t a good foundation for permanent paintings? If that's true, can anyone give a clearer picture of how it is different and what problems might arise from using it?


how does solvent affect PVC if it evaporates?

Question asked 2021-09-19 14:03:55 ... Most recent comment 2021-09-20 10:34:05
Oil Paint

I have a fat over lean question.

Does solvent act as a minus of fat (or PVC)? It seems like it does when it is added neat, it thins the paint so it is less fat, spreads it farther on the surface. But it must only temporarily reduce the PVC because as soon as it has evaporated then the ratio is the same as before, right? And when solvent is part of a medium (solvent and oil) then it seems like only the amount of oil matters since the solvent evaporates, you are just adding up the overall oil content of each layer.

Can anyone clarify this?


solvent fat-over-lean question

Question asked 2021-09-20 06:48:48 ... Most recent comment 2021-09-20 10:31:00
Oil Paint

Does solvent act as a minus of fat (or PVC), even though it evaporates? It seems like it does when it is added neat, it thins the paint so it is less fat or concentrated, spreads it farther on the surface. But it only temporarily reduces the PVC because as soon as it has evaporated then the ratio is the same as before, right? And when solvent is part of a medium (solvent and oil) then it seems like only the amount of oil matters since the solvent evaporates, you are just adding up the overall oil content of each layer.

Can anyone clarify this?

Alcohol inks

Question asked 2021-09-07 14:10:47 ... Most recent comment 2021-09-12 19:23:01
Egg Tempera

​hello egg tempera experts! 

I recently bought a pack of waterproof alcohol inks by Jacquard.  

Do you think these are ok to use under an egg tempera painting? As an underpainting? I thought I would experiment with different color ink underpaintings, but I don't want to find out it was a bad idea when it's too late.

Thanks!





Correct way to size fabric with Rabbit Skin Glue?

Question asked 2021-09-04 09:02:20 ... Most recent comment 2021-09-09 13:48:29
Sizes and Adhesives

I can't find a definitive answer for how much RSG is too much or too little. I have been using it while in liquid form, before it cools, and applying with a sponge until it soaks through the back. A friend says that's too much. I do get spots where the fabric is slick and shiny.

I thought to do a light coat on front and light coat on back, but that seems to be not recommended. Is there a better way to do this and still make sure all fibers are saturated? 

Standoil film breaks to aglomerattes

Question asked 2021-09-02 14:54:12 ... Most recent comment 2021-09-08 15:32:55
Drying Oils Oil Paint Paint Mediums

​Dear all,

I painted in multiple oil glazes, first linseed oil and pigment followed by last two or three layers of stand oil and pigment. ​

Stand oil is linseed heated without oxigene and I mix binder and dry pigments prior to painting


The problem happens when I aplly second or third layer of stand oil and pigment, the paint film once brushed equally in few minutes breaks down to aglomerate. It looks like one spills water on horizontal flat surface and then water shrinks to unregular pattern of small shapes. 

It happened when I add solvent and without it.

Why this happens and what could I do to avoid it?


Kind Regards,

Damir P.

Graphene Veils

Question asked 2021-08-27 09:16:48 ... Most recent comment 2021-09-08 08:46:29
Art Conservation Topics

Just wanted to post this as although it's just at the stage of research it's interesting. It's using a thin layer of Graphene to protect artwork from degradation:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41565-021-00934-z

Any Specific Gesso Recipes from 16th Century Italy?

Question asked 2021-07-30 20:53:48 ... Most recent comment 2021-08-09 14:05:18

​Hello,

Can someone provide specific gesso recipes used in 16th-century Italy and/or provide resources that might expound upon such recipes? Thank you.

Making changes to a dried oil painting

Question asked 2021-07-30 02:22:02 ... Most recent comment 2021-07-31 22:41:07
Oil Paint

​Hi All,

Periodically I need to make some changes to an already dried oil painting. Usually the painting is only a few weeks old, but sometimes a few months. To date I have either scraped the offending bits off (but this can leave a trough); sanded it off (not sure if this is good for the overall painting) or painted over it with thicker paint (only works where the overlayer is compatible with the rest of the painting...in terms of thickness, opacity, etc.).

Would really like to know if there is a better way and, also, what do you think of my 3 methods above?

Thanks in advance,

PS: I usually paint on gessoed canvas panels, although I sometimes use stretched canvases. In the latter case I would usually hold some firm material behind the canvas so that any scraping/sanding did not stretch the canvas in the local area (unfortunatery this dosen't always work and I end up with a localized backwards depression in the canvas).

Help! 



Paraloid B72

Question asked 2020-10-19 15:44:39 ... Most recent comment 2021-07-30 09:54:23
Egg Tempera

​Hello,

I am planning to use Paraloid B72 on Egg tempera and i have some questions since it will be the first time i will be using it. I am planning to use it on icons painted with fairly high egg yolk content.

1. What percentage should be used for preparing B72 for this kind of paintings?

2. I have read that there are multiple solvents that can be used. Does the polarity of the solvent affect the paintings?. Someone mentioned that non polar solvents have a tendency to cause Fatty acid migration/ foggy spots on paintings. This was mentioned for varnishes that sink into the paintings. How does this apply to the isolation layer produced by B72. I am between using acetone or ethanol.

3. What will be the effects of sealing the paintings if they haven't cured for over a period of 3 months? For example a period between one to two weeks..

Thank you

Testing our Notification System

Question asked 2021-07-14 14:26:49 ... Most recent comment 2021-07-16 14:20:35

Please ignore, i'm tesing our notification sytem

​-Eric

PVA for sizing

Question asked 2021-03-02 13:58:27 ... Most recent comment 2021-07-13 22:06:03
Sizes and Adhesives

Hello all,

I have a question about PVA for linen sizing:

My understanding is that the linen industry has mostly stepped away from using RSG due to its hygroscopic nature and has moved towards PVA for its durability and longevity.  However, I just read that Winsor and Newton advises against PVA for sizing because it will “disintegrate prematurely leaving the remaining painting with no foundations”. Is there research to back up or refute this claim? 

Thank you for any insights you may have.

Best, 

Kimberly 

Rabbit Skin Glue change

Question asked 2021-07-12 08:51:35 ... Most recent comment 2021-07-12 16:21:06
Oil Paint Sizes and Adhesives

I know lots of oil painters who paint directly on RSG size on linen, with no primer. A frien recently encountered a problem I wanted to ask about.

She prepared many canvasesin her normal way (I do not know the strength of her RSG or how many coats). She used all but one of the canvases. She went back to paint onthe last canvas after one year and found that the oil paint penetrated the size. 

We talked it over and since nothing but the curing time was different we figured that the year of drying had shrunk the size away from the fibres so the seal was no longer complete or even. Does this sound right? It would mean that the layer of oil paint helps stabilise the RSG, perhps sealing it on the one side so there was less surface to react with the humidity in the air. Or does anyone see another possible explanation?

Thank you.

Rabbit Skin Glue change

Question asked 2021-07-12 08:50:53 ... Most recent comment 2021-07-12 08:43:00
Oil Paint Sizes and Adhesives

I know lots of oil painters who paint directly on RSG size on linen, with no primer. A frien recently encountered a problem I wanted to ask about.

She prepared many canvasesin her normal way (I do not know the strength of her RSG or how many coats). She used all but one of the canvases. She went back to paint onthe last canvas after one year and found that the oil paint penetrated the size. 

We talked it over and since nothing but the curing time was different we figured that the year of drying had shrunk the size away from the fibres so the seal was no longer complete or even. Does this sound right? It would mean that the layer of oil paint helps stabilise the RSG, perhps sealing it on the one side so there was less surface to react with the humidity in the air. Or does anyone see another possible explanation?

Thank you.

I spoke too soon. The forum will be back to normal in a few days.

Question asked 2021-06-30 10:52:04 ... Most recent comment 2021-06-30 10:51:00

​I spoke too soon. The forum will be back to normal in a few days.

Egg Tempera - isolator/varnish using Lascaux UV Protect Spray

Question asked 2021-06-23 05:39:50 ... Most recent comment 2021-06-30 10:49:58
Egg Tempera Varnishes Matting, Framing, and Glazing

​How quickly can one apply a spray isolator/varnish such as Lascaux UV Protect spray over an egg tempera painting?  See:  https://www.kremer-pigmente.com/elements/resources/products/files/81071_SDS.pdf One specialist art supplier in the UK suggested it could be applied as soon as the ET surface was dry as it mainly evaporated on contact.  I have made some test panels and find it works well as an isolator or finishing varnish, even after a few days when the paint is relatively fresh, but touch dry.  I have seen some previous forum entries suggesting a longer curing time is recommended (6 months or longer) but provided there are no immediate visible problems (such as uneven sinking in - which I haven't found an issue, even after isolating after a few days) are there other potential problems that could arise later on?  Of all the various preparations/combinations I have experimented with, Lascaux is the one preparation which is nicely matt​/does not sink in.  I have tried A82/Regalrez/Golden products in various ways and they are either too uneven or have an unsatisfactory high gloss/slightly plastic appearance.  I don't always have the time to wait 3-6 months which probably explains why insufficient curing is probably the cause of my issues with uneven sinking in etc - and which is why I favour Lascaux.​

On another note, if I decide alternatively to place an ET painting behind glass, which has been my practice so far, when is the earliest I can safely do so - obviously the framer will take precautions by insterting slip/beading between painting & glass.  Is it OK to fully seal the back or can one allow breathability & air circulation ​by not taping up..?  

Thank you for any advice. Zarina

Recent problems with MITRA

Question asked 2021-06-26 23:21:23 ... Most recent comment 2021-06-26 23:20:00

​Hi all. UD was doing routine server work and it caused some glitches in a number of associated webpages. I would have warned everyone, but I learned after the fact and the site was not working, making it impossible for me to post about the problem. We now appear to be out of the water on this. I look forward to continuing our dialog about art and materials and techniques.

Egg Tempera on Parchment

Question asked 2021-05-24 09:37:25 ... Most recent comment 2021-06-18 14:56:47
Animal Glue Art Conservation Topics Egg Tempera Flexible Supports Gouache Rigid Supports

I once painted an illuminated image on vellum, mostly in ink and gouache, but with a small area in egg tempera.  Within a season the skin had warped, the tempera section had cracked and, in parts, delaminated (image attached, in raking light). KS ET on Vellum.jpeg  The pigment involved in the delaminated area – genuine lapis lazuli – no doubt (due to large particle size and rigidity) exacerbated the inherent problem of an inflexible medium on top of a hygroscopic, moving support.  

1.  Medieval manuscripts are often said to be painted in "tempera".  How many are actually "egg tempera" versus simply a water-based "tempera paint" (gouache)?  Is the same, somewhat confusing terminology that is seen in early Egyptian art (i.e. many images labeld "tempera" are not egg tempera) applied to manuscript illumination? 

2. If manuscript illuminations are, in fact, egg tempera, how have them been preserved?  Were they thinnly painted?  Is the binding of a manuscript enough to keep them stable? Or, in fact, have egg tempera illuminations suffered more than images done in goauche or watercolor?

3. Any thoughts on adhering animal skins to rigid substrates?  The facts of egg tempera (a high PVC paint that gets more brittle with age) combined with practical experience tells me animal skin supports and tempera are a problematic combination. Given how water-loving and strong animal skins are, would adhering them to a rigid support resolve the problem? Or exacerbate it (since skins and wood expand/contract at different rates = lots of stress in the artwork)?  If not on a wood support, how about vellum on other substrates (paperboard, ACM, plastic)?

Any thoughts on the above are most welcome!  Thanks, Koo Schadler


Tubed Tempera, Mysterious Craquelure, Venus

Question asked 2021-06-18 14:54:06 ... Most recent comment 2021-06-18 14:26:00
Egg Tempera

1.   Zecchi's tubed egg tempera paints are made from pigment, freeze-dried egg yolk, gum arabic, and preservative.   

- Any thoughts on freeze-dried yolk as a binder? 

- What would be the reason to combine yolk and gum Arabic binders in a single paint?

2.  Mysterious Craquelure.  Tempera painters occasionally report a mysterious ‘craquelure’ that appears in the uppermost layers of tempera paint during the painting process.  It starts out as barely visible lines that gradually increase with successive layers; as more paint is applied, lines coalesce into a network of minute cracks, and can eventually cause paint to flake and delaminate.  It’s seemingly associated with well-developed areas (lots of underlying layers), and generally involves titanium white.  I don’t know what causes this, I can only offer tentative explanation, among them:

 a. Underbound, very diluted paint.  When too much water is added, at some point the various components become so separate, binder so attenuated that the resulting paint film is friable and under bound.

 b. Over saturating underlying paint layers with water. Studies of solvents applied to ET indicate that spirit-based solvents  leach lipids; water seems to induce swelling in the paint film.  If a curing film is compelled to repeatedly expand and shrink, the stress could weaken bonds being formed in the polymerization process, and result in cracks.  

There is also the speculation that, in an over saturated surface, excess moisture might draw yolk binder downward so that upper layers become under bound and fragile.  This latter theory doesn't seem as likely to me, but could it be possible?

c. Poorly dispersed titanium. TW’s fine particle size tends to clump together, and needs to be carefully and thoroughly dispersed - yet I often see students give it cursory attention with the palette knife.  So, perhaps aggregate clumps of poorly dispersed titanium contribute to cracking? 

I favor explanation ‘b’- because of the circumstances and solution to the mysterious craquelure I experienced a few times in my early painting days. It generally occurred when I worked very rapidly, quickly piled up layers, and thus also accumulated lots of water within the paint film down to the gesso.  To fix the problem, whenever I build many layers in a short amount of time, I continually and thoroughly dry underlying layers.   Since adopting these work habits, I haven’t experienced “mysterious craquelure”. 

Any thoughts would be appreciated!

Damage to traditional gesso surface

Question asked 2020-06-25 11:16:14 ... Most recent comment 2021-06-17 23:24:01
Rigid Supports Art Conservation Topics Egg Tempera Grounds / Priming

Hi! I have damage to the surfaces of some traditional gesso panels I made: traditional gesso on muslin on Baltic birch ply. The surfaces have been damaged. In some cases the muslin fabric below the gesso has been exposed. In other cases, I hesitate to sand away scratches in case of exposing more fabric. My understanding is that gesso layers should be applied while just dry to the touch, and not after the layers have cured, as is the case with my panels. Any advice on the possibility of repair would be much appreciated. They will be used for egg tempera, so surface aberrations are unfortunate given the thin nature of tempera. Thank you!

Tubed Egg Tempera, Freezing Egg Yolk

Question asked 2021-06-17 16:23:02 ... Most recent comment 2021-06-17 16:15:00
Egg Tempera

I'm trying to better understand a commercially produced, tubed egg tempera paint made from pigment, freeze-dried egg yolk, gum arabic, and preservative.  Freezing egg yolks (as discussed on various cooking forums) seems to be acceptable if there are additives (sugar, salt); otherwise freezing seems to break the yolk's natural emulsion.  Any thoughts on freeze-dried yolk as a binder?   Thanks, Koo 

I am back

Question asked 2021-06-04 14:30:45 ... Most recent comment 2021-06-04 14:30:00

​Thank you other moderators for filling in for my in the last two weeks.

Multimedia Artboard

Question asked 2021-06-01 08:29:25 ... Most recent comment 2021-06-04 08:48:53
Rigid Supports Oil Paint Art Conservation Topics

​They claim this material is archival. Is it?

ABS plastic panel

Question asked 2021-06-01 08:32:33 ... Most recent comment 2021-06-03 16:48:06
Art Conservation Topics Oil Paint Rigid Supports

​Is this a suitable archival support for permanent art?

Fire retardant over acrylic and acrylic spray paint

Question asked 2021-06-02 16:18:58 ... Most recent comment 2021-06-02 18:29:02
Acrylic Health and Safety

I have been asked to cover some finished paintings with fire retardant. The paintings are acrylic and acrylic spray paint on maple plywood. Is this going to ruin the paintings?

Signing an oil painting

Question asked 2021-05-31 15:41:24 ... Most recent comment 2021-06-01 20:33:03
Oil Paint Studio Tools and Tips Pen

​Need suggestions for a commercial quill or penlike vehicle to hold medium viscosity oil for signing oil paiantings OR

Is there an italic Sharpie like product whith which it is OK to sign an oil paiinting? Small brushes too broad, too many bristles.

Water Gilding

Question asked 2021-05-28 07:05:20 ... Most recent comment 2021-05-30 07:43:53
Gilding

​Hello everyone,

I was wondering if there are any recipies for making my own Gilders clay bole from scratch? 

I read the post about the 19th century gilders clay bole,but information is missing..

Thank you

I will be away from MITRA until the 1st. Brian Baade

Question asked 2021-05-25 18:41:11 ... Most recent comment 2021-05-25 18:38:00

​Hi all

I have been hard at work preparing my initial documents for tenure. This is the reason that I have not responded much the past week. I am going to focus solely on this until the 1st of JUne. I see that the rest of the moderators, especially Matthew,  have been doing a great job and I look forward to returning to posting on a regular basis.

Oil Sticks - does the wax cause problems?

Question asked 2021-05-24 13:11:09 ... Most recent comment 2021-05-25 15:15:59
Oil Paint

​I am presently creating oil paintings using oil sticks and oil paints. I create my first layer using Shiva Oil Sticks, which have a matte finish and dry to the touch in less than 24 hours.  My second layer consists of Sennelier Oil Sticks, which are much oilier than the Shivas.  My final layer is completed using Gamblin Oil paints applied neat.

I've read elsewhere that oil sticks are not as compatible with regular oil paints and do not dry as well as or create as strong a film as regular oil paints, which can lead to problems down the road.  

What are your thoughts on this?  Thank you!

Tempered Hardboard - painting directly on it with oils

Question asked 2021-05-15 01:54:18 ... Most recent comment 2021-05-25 10:10:57
Rigid Supports Grounds / Priming Oil Paint

​Hi.  I'm a bit confused about tempered hardboard and whether it's considered to be an archival support for oils.  Can I paint directly on it without any prep at all, including skipping adding any oil ground?

I posed this question to one of the popular oil paint companies and was told that I could paint directly on the hardboard because there's little risk of the board absorbing either moisture from the atmosphere or oil from the paint, so there's little risk of warping or movement from moisture, or degradation from the oils.

One of the popular acrylic paint companies suggests 2 coats of gloss medium followed by acrylic gesso.  I know there's debate over whether painting oils over acrylic sizing and ground is archival.

What are your thoughts of these issues and do you recommend painting oils directly on tempered hardboard with no sizing or ground at all?

Thank you.

Egg Tempera Varnish Clarifications

Question asked 2021-05-15 10:25:59 ... Most recent comment 2021-05-23 07:35:58
Egg Tempera Varnishes

​Hi,

I am updating the section in my egg tempera book on varnishing.  It's a very complicated chapter, unfortuantely, because it's an unfamiliar subject to many tempera artists, so there's a lot to explain; and there's the added complication of so many potential products (both as isolators and final varnishes).  Of course I can't cover every product, I discuss what's most recommended and ones I'm familiar with - still, it's a challenge to organize and make coherent.

Given the above, I'm trying to get the right nomenclature to distinguish between water-based synthetic polymers (primarily various Golden products, although I also include water-based PVAs offered by Gamblin and Talas) and solvent-based synthetic polymer resins (B72, Mowilith 20, Soluvar, MSA, Laropal, Regalrez).  So my questions are..

- Are both water-based and solvent-based synthetic polymers considered resins, or is the term "resin" associated only with solvent-based coatings?  Is there a reason to distinguish solvent-based synthetic polymers as "resins" (does it contribute anything to understanding that group of coatings)?

- B72, Soluvar and MSA are HMW, yes?

- B72 is soluble in acetone, toluene and xylene; Soluvar and MSA soluble only in true mineral spirits, yes?

- Laropal and Regalrez are LMW, yes? 

- Both Laropal and Regalrex are soluble in either true mineral spirits or OMS?

- Is it important to include the numbers in Laropal A81 and Regalrez 1094?  I'm sure they're meaningful, but it's already confusing for newcomers to absorb these strange (to them) chemical terms, and lengthening their names with meaningless (to a newcomer) numbers can make eyes glaze over... 

I know MITRA has an excellent section on varnishes - I'm including the link in my book.

Thanks,

Koo Schadler 

oil painting on stone veneer

Question asked 2021-05-18 14:51:13 ... Most recent comment 2021-05-19 17:03:53
Industrial and Non-Traditional Products Sizes and Adhesives

I have found a stone veneer product that I would like to paint in oils on.  It is very thin and has a backing that consists of an adhesive  ( that has a PH of 3.5- 4) and cotton.  The company has said to me that the PH needs to be this in order for the product to be waterproof. .  So my question (s) is this:  Is this a bad idea and if so, can it be fixed?  ( Example, could I use buffermount to adhere the backing to an archival board say?  Could I paint some type of ground on the stone's surface to  seal it/ give it more protection?   I really want to work on this because it is super lightweight, pliable and I have lots of ideas.  www.slate-like.com

silicone paper

Question asked 2021-04-29 10:26:15 ... Most recent comment 2021-05-19 09:48:41
Industrial and Non-Traditional Products Handling and Transportation Art Conservation Topics Storage

​I have another question for you experts:

I am looking for silicone paper, for wrapping art. But it's hard to come by, and expensive. Unless you could use silicone paper used for the food industry. Then it suddenly is very affordable and relatively easy to get.

Do you people know if it's the same product? Is it safe to use foodgrade silicone paper for art?

Wax Mediums

Question asked 2021-05-15 18:49:47 ... Most recent comment 2021-05-16 07:18:23
Encaustic Varnishes

​A few questions about wax mediums.

1. Most wax mediums have some sort of resin and solvent.  Does anyone know if Renaissance Wax contains a resin (its ingredients are listed as microcrystalline waxes & mineral spirits)?  If not, what causes it to harden; is it just the inherent hardness of the mix of petroleum based waxes in it, once the solvent content has evaporated?

2. Dorland's Wax Medium is made from beeswax, paraffin, microcrystalline wax, dammar; it does not list its solvent content in the ingredient list, just says "can be thinned with turpentine or mineral spirits".  Yet other places on the web say it can be thinned with OMS.  Anyone know it's solvent content?

3. Are microcrystalline waxes (no color, harder) preferrable to bees wax, or are they equally good?

4. Can solvent-based wax mediums be applied on top of water-based synthetic polymer isolators (such as a PVA, GAC 500, etc)?

5. I presume that for a wax medium to go on top of a solvent-based isolator, it must contain a different solvent from whatever went into the isolating coat; otherwise applying the wax medium would dissovle the underlying isolator - yes?

6. Has anyone tried the Williamsburg wax medium, which is solvent free, as a finishing layer?  If so, any thoughts on its appearance, drying time, etc.?

7. Finally, if George O'Hanlon at Natural Pigmetns could clarify the practical differences between his two wax mediums (Rublev Wax Medium [beeswax, dammar, odorless mineral spirits - Rublesol, I presume?] and Conservar Wax Medium [microcrystalline wax, aldehyde resin, mineral spirits], that would be most helpful.

Thanks! Koo Schadler

Oil Paint on Convex and Concave Solid 22kt Gold

Question asked 2021-05-01 10:14:21 ... Most recent comment 2021-05-15 05:20:45
Rigid Supports Gilding Oil Paint Grounds / Priming

Hi, I'd really appreciate some advice on an unusual query; I've been referred to this amazing website through the Painting Best Practices Group on Facebook. I've had a good look through the resources and forum threads on here, but I still have some questions:

I’ve been asked by a jewellery designer if I could paint miniatures in oil paint onto slightly concave 22ct gold ovals, circa 1mm thick, to be set into a bracelet. I’m wondering what a concave surface will do to the paint layers over time.

I’ve previously painted on convex gold domes for the same client, treating it like painting on copper/on top of gold leaf (there was limited testing I could do on solid 22ct gold!): the gold was completely obscured, as it was purely to make sure the whole jewellery piece was made of precious materials. I very lightly abraded the gold, degreased it with denatured alcohol, then two thin coats of a flexible primer: Liquitex clear gesso primer (chosen because it was difficult to scrape off copper that had been prepared in the same way. It was also quite difficult to remove from the gold dome two months down the line, i.e didn't peel, when I removed the finished painting to make way for a new design). I then painted in very thin layers using the minimum amount of medium: progressively fatter turps and linseed oil. The final paint thickness is very thin. 6 months on, the convex domes appear unchanged (if 6 months is a reasonable cure time? I’m expecting the cure time to be slow because of the circa 1mm thick metal support, but it is very thinly painted).

For the concave domes, I’d be using the same process and medium.

- Is a concave surface inherently unsafe for indirect oil painting?

- If not, would an alkyd primer, or a lead-based primer be a better product than the acrylic gesso primer? I'm working on the assumption that the gold is largely chemically inert, with circa 2% copper and circa 6% silver - I gather lead primers bind chemically to copper, but my only option (as I'm in the UK and lead products have been phased out) is an old tube of Daler Georgian Flake White – it doesn’t say if it contains zinc, or if it’s linseed oil. I don’t know if this would be up to snuff as a priming layer at all.

Thank you for reading this long-winded post!

Muller vs. Mortar/Pestle

Question asked 2021-05-12 07:55:59 ... Most recent comment 2021-05-14 06:44:26
Pigments Studio Tools and Tips

Most pigments come ground to optimal size, but occasionally an historic or earth pigment (anything larger than about 40 microns) benefits from a bit of grinding.  A glass muller (about 5.5 Mohs - yes?) isn't necessarily hard enough for grinding (depending, of course, on the hardness of the pigment being ground), nor does a muller's shape direct force in such a way as to grind effectively (rather, its flat bottom shape seems best suited to dispersing pigments).  So a mortar and pestle seems a much better tool for grinding (and the harder the material it's made from, the better; i.e. agate, porcelain).  Yet I see mullers often discussed or even recommended for grinding pigments.  

Is a muller suitable for grinding (I think of mullers as primarily suited for dispersing)?  Is a mortar/pestle unquestionably preferable?  Is any substance added to the base of muller to increase its hardness?  Any other thoughts?  Thanks.

Pva on raw unprimed linen problem

Question asked 2017-11-25 11:39:09 ... Most recent comment 2021-05-12 10:34:32
Sizes and Adhesives

​Hi! Im an art student at the National academy of fine art Oslo, Norway.   

I'm interested in using raw linen canvas in my painting, I've previously bought white  grounded linen and stretchid it the unprimed back as the front. Recently, I received unprimed linen from artist store.

I have experience with rabbit skin glue but since i want to use oilpaint directly on the "size" this is not on option?. I started using artist grade PVA, and a professor tought me how to dilute it with water, ca 1/5 pva to water. it worked well with two coats on cotton but when i started priming the linen the result was really horrible.

i stretched the raw canvas nicely and tight on a stretcherframe and started brushing on pva/water.  while wet the linen got really firm and tight but after drying overnight the canvas was completely slacking.  after yet another coat the canvas was tight (wet) and later turned slacking but hard as the pva dried.  i made tests where i put on the pva undiluted and the result was good but the pva layer dried almost instant, it was uneven and slighly milky plastic looking.  

I also started pva priming the canvas unstretched and later had to really struggle to force the canvas to get tight on the frame with canvas pliers, as it did not get really stretched i made the huge mistake to brush some water on the canvas, it get really bad after drying, untight and full of ripples. i have made alot of searching for answers, my proffessors just told me that the key is to dilute with water, and restretch the canvas and give it more glue coats. wich i did, and every time the same thing, tight when wet and loose dry.     

after i while i found this article,  its the same problem i encountered with pictures 

http://dianamosesbotkin.blogspot.no/2013/10/pva-horror-tale.html?m=1  


i read that professional canvas maker like cleassens of belgium use acrylic glue to their canvases and coating both sides, is this a better option?   can you dilute pva with something other than water?

I know about the Golden products but now i ended up with having alot of PVA and trying to make it work.     




 

    

Oil strikethrough on linen

Question asked 2021-05-11 08:33:39 ... Most recent comment 2021-05-12 08:00:33
Grounds / Priming Drying Oils Animal Glue Flexible Supports Oil Paint Sizes and Adhesives

​Hello,

I commonly paint on a good quality, heavy cotton duck (on stretchers) which I paint on unprimed. I size the canvas with three coatings of fairly dilute rabbit skin glue (1:20 ratio) and paint straight on top. I have been doing this for several years, and my usual test of whether the size is sufficient to protect the cotton from the linseed oil in the paint is to check for strikethrough on the back of the canvas - usually my sizing method prevents any strikethrough, and seems successful. I'm also careful not to create a thick 'layer' of rabbit skin glue, as I'm aware that this can cause problems of delamination and animal glues in general are a bit vulnerable to the environment. I look for a very slight glittering on the surface of the cotton to judge that the size is going to be effective.

For my most recent project I decided to switch to linen. I have what I think is a good quality linen, but when I've stretched and sized it according to my normal method, I'm getting some quite bad results. There is a lot of oil strikethrough happening. I believe that the oil is actually going through the holes in the linen's weave, and then soaking into the back side, since the weave seems rather loose compared to the cotton I usually use, and I can see pinprick holes. My plan to remedy this issue (on the canvasses I haven't already started painting) is to add another layer of rabbit skin glue, at twice the usual strength, and attempt to have the glue size 'plug' the holes in the weave and therefore prevent paint getting through (so basically the usual job of a primer). Adding a layer of primer isn't an option because I already have a detailed sketch on the canvas and need my ground to be transparent so I can see it.

Is this an acceptable strategy to mitigate this problem? Is there anything I can do to my initial layers of oil paint to minimise strikethrough? Adding solvent seems to make it worse, as the resulting thinner paint finds its way through the weave even more readily. I have also been considering relaxing the tension by moving the staples, while the linen is wet with glue, in the hope that when it dries and re-tensions the weave won't be quite so 'stretched'.

I've been reading a bit about the debate over how disastrous strikethrough really is, and it seems a little ambiguous. I'm not sure if accepting the strikethrough is a better bet than experimenting with a thicker size layer? Of course I'm aware that I might end up with oil sinking later on and have to deal with that, but my main concern now is ensuring a stable foundation.

Combine sealing an ink drawing with imprimatura on gessoed panes

Question asked 2021-05-06 13:16:10 ... Most recent comment 2021-05-06 21:21:33

With my intent to paint alla prima using Liquin Original medium with oil paint on Ampersand Gessobord, are there any problems combining OMS with Liquin Original and including an oil color to seal the India ink and tone the panel?

Nonremovable Varnish for Acrylic Painting

Question asked 2021-05-04 12:02:28 ... Most recent comment 2021-05-04 19:39:38
Acrylic Varnishes

I want to use a nonremovable varnish for my acrylic paintings. I don't want the fuss of applying an isolation coat, and I am just a hobby painter, so I am not worried about any of my paintings ever needing to be conserved in the future, or having to remove the varnish. I am looking for a layer that provides UV protection, a unified sheen, a protective layer against dust, and a surface that I can clean dust off of. Because my work is textured, I want a spray application, and I don't own or want to acquire a paint gun or an airbrush, so I want a spray can. I also want a low odor and low fume product. I have read about Liquitex Spray Varnish, and I have seen an ad for Krylon Crystal Clear. Are these good products? Is Krylon ok to use on fine art? Are there any other brands you can recommend? Thank you.​

Cloudy Acrylic Varnish

Question asked 2021-04-28 08:22:43 ... Most recent comment 2021-04-29 11:34:45
Varnishes Acrylic

​I am a relatively new artist and made a rookie mistake. .

I am used gloss varnish on my acrylic paintings for the first time.  I applied two coats of Liquitex Professional Gloss Medium and Varnish and it has made it a mess.  

I suspect I did not let it dry long enough and then overworked it (rookie mistakes). It may also be that I put it on too thickly. 

Unless it is in absolutely perfect light, it has a very glared and smudged appearance.  

Any suggestions of what I can do to fix it? I am very proud of this painting; it took a long time and is a paid commission.  I am desperate to save it.

walnut alkyd and inter layer adhesion

Question asked 2021-04-26 12:39:20 ... Most recent comment 2021-04-27 13:14:25
Alkyd

​Should a shiny, lower paint layer need to be roughened to give it tooth before painting over it (mechanical bond), or would the chemical bond between the two layers be sufficient?


I've been adding walnut alkyd directly to my paint blobs on the palette before painting, without OMS (which is easy to overuse), and enjoy the viscosity, but the result is sometimes a shiny layer .


Thank you,

Richard

Bohus Bial 168, anyone?

Question asked 2021-04-14 09:27:56 ... Most recent comment 2021-04-22 07:57:02
Health and Safety Environment Drying Oils Paint Mediums Paint Additives Solvents and Thinners

​Hi,

I wonder, is there anyone here that knows Bohus Bial 168? it is supposed to be a harmless white spirit alternative. Bio degradeble, non toxic, non volatile, better working than white spirit, all natural, etc. and supposedly you could even use it as a painting medium.

To me it sounds as too good to be true, but who knows... Would be great if it realy works...

http://bohuscoatings.com/

alkyds: I'm not finding actual literature on chemistry of oil primers

Question asked 2021-04-19 09:30:20 ... Most recent comment 2021-04-19 23:19:36
Grounds / Priming Drying Oils Animal Glue Oil Paint Rigid Supports

​What the title says.

I was interested in using commercial grade alkyd oil primers to prime my own canvases, 

the only thing I could find were generic warnings from artists who were not chemists to "use only art grade materials!!"

...and that's fine if that's the answer! :)  it's more the principle than the $.  if utrecht oil primer @$60/gal >> zinsser oil-based primer @$15, I just like to know specifically what makes it so.

I just need to know WHY.  because some times, there IS no difference.  a $15, 50# bag of whiting powder from the clay supply store is the same as a $15, 4# bag of "ground marble" from an overpriced paint brand.  and some times, there really is a seriousdifference after all, and, I want to educate myself.


but just using google I'm finding very little.  and paint brands like to keep their formulas proprietary, as well.


what's the difference between a urethane alkyd and a silicone alkyd?
...and "alkali-refined linseed oil"?

are all three alkyd categories cross-compatible (will stick to each other)?
 is there a chemical relationship between a urethane alkyd and a polyurethane varnish?

alkyds are 100% compatible with traditional oil paints, or no?


enamel gets used like a marketing term all over the place for all kinds of totally different products... does it have a specific technical meaning?


"titanium white oil paint" versus "oil primer" vs an oil-based gesso (I guess acrylic gesso is more common)
 is the difference between paint, primer, and gesso, the amount of whiting powder and pigment filler versus the amount of binder?  primers have more filler to be thicker and more opaque, is it just that simple or there's more to it?



I'm sorry there's so many questions.  these are things I've wondered for YEARS and never found clear answers to. 

I even have the artists' pigments books which are fascinating.  i loved making the pigment connections when I got into both car autobody+paint and pottery glazes.
the fellow at NAPA auto paint was explaining that toyota's gold paint from 2000 bleaches in hawaii's equatorial sun to a silver-- it has quinacridone red, which is a mostly permanent organic pigment but apparently 20 yrs of direct UV exposure, will break it down).

But I never really learned about binders!

I figure the conservationist folk here would know better than anyone!    


I'm a smart dude and I'd be happy to read through some literature if you can point me in the right direction, to something that's just laymen enough for me to understand it while also technical enough to correctly describe the chemistries of these different alkyd binders

 (I have some collegechemistry background, doesn't have to be totally dumbed down; but perhaps not so technical that I need a masters in petroleum engineering and matsci!).


thank you again for the help,

Bernie




"Slightly" underbound question

Question asked 2021-04-10 16:28:12 ... Most recent comment 2021-04-19 21:24:49
Oil Paint Drying Oils Art Conservation Topics Grounds / Priming

​Hello everyone- I am so happy to have found this resource and want to preemptively thank you for providing this information to people. 

I work in oils but haven't had any traditional training (in undergrad I did graphic design) and everything I have learned was just through self trial and error and gleaning info from friends. 

Recently I had an issue with the lightfastness of a color and through that experience learned about lightfastness which is easy enough to fix (I replaced tubes of paint) ---but it set off my anxiety brain. I wondered what else I may not know about (and the issue with learning by trial and error is what if the issue doesn't show up for years!? I used that color with horrible lightfastness for two years in a few paintings because the issue didn't show up until now.) 

So I have embarked on a journey of asking very technically-minded painters their opinions on every part of my practice and by researching on sites like this one. 

My painting process is luckily very simple which I hope will save me from huge structural issues. I actually have always just painted from the tube and have added no solvents or mediums. Much of the time a section of a painting will be done wet on wet in one layer but other times I will rework a section after it has dried. Since it's just the oil paint my understanding is I am painting only with fats and that should be structurally sound. The only times I've ever had cracking was when I really violated a thick over thin rule (like painting a relatively thin layer over a thicker color that was still tacky). In those cases the cracks showed up by the next day.

However- talking with people and stress-testing old canvases I have learned that I am not gessoing enough and that the acrylic gesso I was using is not the best quality it could be. I'm going to in the future move to using Golden's acrylic gesso and will do at least three to four layers. 

I have found that my paintings often are underbound. A finger rubbing won't do anything but if you rub them with some pressure with a paper towel the towel will be very slightly stained. 

I think going forward the better gesso (and maybe even trying oil gesso) as well as adding a tiny bit more linseed oil to my paints will help fix this issue. But I am curious about the paintings I have from the past decade of painting. This isn't an issue that has come up as the paintings aren't rubbed or placed under stress-test situations in the real world. I've sold many paintings over the years so I do have a concern about their archival-ness. 

Very long-winded but I suppose the question I am most curious about is whether there is a spectrum of unbounded-ness? If something is "slightly" unbound and kept in normal safe conditions will it be safe for at least our lifespan? (Obviously this is probably a case-by-case answer but any knowledge shared would be very appreciated)

Thank you so much for your time and insight. 

-Tony

PS also am curious about fingernail tests. I've read that a way to make sure a layer is dry enough to paint over is to scratch it with your nail and if it comes off powdery and not gunky it's ready. But other people asking questions on here about the structural integrity of their work have said that their pieces aren't effected by a fingernail test as a way of proving they are sound. I may be going too intensely with my stress-tests but yes if I'm sitting there scratching with pressure over and over on a spot I can start to damage the paint. 

rigid supports, mdf vs plywood?

Question asked 2021-04-19 08:56:09 ... Most recent comment 2021-04-19 12:51:11
Grounds / Priming Drying Oils Animal Glue Oil Paint Rigid Supports

​Good morning!

I'm just getting back into oil painting and silverpoint after a 10-yr hiatus.  I got back into sculpture last year.
I'm DEFINITELY over thinking things, but that's just who I am.  I'm a very indecisive person and like to know everything about a problem! 

practically speaking, my first efforts are NOT going to need to be archival haha.  But I still want to make the right decision.


Anyway: to begin,
I have TWO use cases.

one, I'll be securing hemp canvas to a rigid backing and then using an oil primer,

two, I'll be securing the same canvas to a rigid backing and then using traditional gesso [whiting].

three... I could just prime or gesso the panel directly...


so, which is better as a rigid support for small-medium panels, say up to 8x20", probably 1/4" thick--

I see it this way:
I want to use plywood because,
lighter,
stronger,
more humidity resistant (mdf puffs up if it gets wet)

advantages of mdf:
dimensional stability, it is smooth and dead flat, plywood warps



I'll be making a trip to home depot in the next day or two so looking forward to your advice!  ....mdf or plywood?





I DO have three other thoughts:


there's a dude on facebook marketplaceselling 1/8" aluminum for super cheap, $70 for 3x8' (compared to $25 for 4x8' cheap plywood, so more expensive but not MUCH more per panel)..  totally archival, light weight, dimensionally stable and moisture-proof... can get bent though haha.  And harder to cut up (would need to borrow a table saw and buy a metal cutting blade, not a huge deal).  can paint DIRECTLY on aluminum too, like copper panel but much cheaper.  worth exploring?

what ever happened to painting on fiberglass canvas, which doesn't rot?  I'm having a harder time finding it for sale, but 10 years ago you could get it.  were there issues with the primer adhesion?

lastly, ...at least if people are using a canvas mounted to a rigid support like I am... why doesn't anyone use acrylic sheet?  plastic is easy to cut, super stable and waterproof, cheaper than aluminum although pricier than plywood, and you don't need oil to stick directly to the acrylic plastic sheet if you're going to tack down your canvas first, then prime that.  



Protecting wood from moisture

Question asked 2021-04-05 16:28:27 ... Most recent comment 2021-04-05 17:56:41
Oil Paint Rigid Supports Sizes and Adhesives Industrial and Non-Traditional Products

Hi All,


Thanks to the Painting Best Practices course, I finally decided to ditch flexible canvas supports in favour of mounting linen to wooden panels. Never knew the former could be so terribly problematic! However, with this change some new considerations sprung up which need clarification. So far the preparation looks like this:

For studies I plan to use some sort of solid wood support (or maybe HDF?; but certainly not plywood because it checks) impregnated on all sides with one or two applications of 10% solution of Paraloid B72 in ethyl acetate. Then I would put some Lead Ground/Acrylic Dispersion Ground.

For final pieces I will apply the Paraloid B72 as stated above and will then use pH neutral PVA adhesive to glue the linen to a birch plywood. The linen would be pre-primed with 2x GAC 200 and some Lead Ground.


The questions are:

1) Is the aluminum foil and low-density polyethylene combination a good alternative to Paraloid B72? Should the aforementioned procedure (ironing the aluminum foil onto the panel) commence on a bare wood surface or a prepared one (Paraloid B72)? Are there concerns over this practice?

For me, the thin aluminum sheet seems to be overly susceptible to tearing, abrasion and so on. However, it can't be denied that it's the best moisture barrier. I know for a fact that there are similar alternatives such as Marvelseal 360 and alkyd-based aluminum paints. These are expensive, though. What are your take on this as a whole?

2) Does the Paraloid B72 solution have a limited shelf-life like shellac? I don't know if the one available to me has HALS/UVLS additives or not, but this is something to consider as the minimum amount sold is 1 litre. Also, can I apply Acrylic Dispersion Ground over this resinous sizing? Will the underlying varnish complicating matters as it remains redissolvable?

As a note to my last question, the potential problem I see with this practice is that solvents can penetrate into the underlayers and cause trouble when varnishing and cleaning. In any case, I decided to use solvent-based sizes over waterborne ones specifically to avoid fiber rising and warping.

3) When using solvents, can the Regalrez 1094 that has sunken in trigger the redissolution of the dried linseed oil paint or the leeching of unpolymerized free fatty acids?

This question is just me toying with an idea. I've learnt that some low molecular weight varnishes tend to sink in somewhat and that solvents, as they evaporate, can bring unbound substances to surface. My reasoning behind this notion is that the industry uses polymeric - high molecular weight - varnishes for acrylic paints because the surface is more porous than that of oil paints'. Ergo, the sinking in of varnishes is something that was found problematic, wasn't it? I'm especially interested in your stance on this one. By the way, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong somewhere.

4) Can anti-fungal agents or anti-insect products be applied in any shape or form?


Sorry if I ask too much!


Thanks in advance,

Péter Hegedűs

Recipies for making oil paint in tubes

Question asked 2021-04-03 10:57:54 ... Most recent comment 2021-04-05 16:51:03
Drying Oils Oil Paint Paint Additives Paint Making Pigments Scientific Analysis

Dear MITRA experts, I would like to ask for your advice. I want to make my own oil paint in tubes, in small batches. My neighbours have a viscous paste mixer and a tiny three roller mill for ointments. I have found formulations for many pigments, can you tell me if these will make a good paint and if it can be improved in terms of modern science and your experience? A couple of examples:

  • For Ceruleum, to obtain 100 grams of paint: Pigment blue 35: 84 grams, aluminium stearate 1.3 grams, binder 16.7 grams. For 100 grams of binder: polymerised alkali-refined linseed oil 47.8 grams, bleached poppy seed oil 47.8 grams, beeswax 1.91 grams, mastic resin 2.87 grams.
  • For Cobalt Violet Light, to obtain 100 grams of paint: Pigment Violet 49: 70.7 grams, aluminium stearate 2.4 grams, binder 29.7 grams. To obtain 100 grams of binder: Polymerised alkali-refined linseed oil 49.25 grams, bleached poppy seed oil 49.25 grams, beeswax 1.98 grams.

There is a small amount of manufacturing losses included in all recipes. The mastic and beeswax are said to be dissolved in heated oil. Would it be possible for professional artists to use this paint? How can I improve it?

Maintaining an oil painting

Question asked 2021-03-31 17:14:22 ... Most recent comment 2021-04-05 11:35:26
Oil Paint

Hi, 

I have a couple of questions about how to maintain an oil painting. 

I read on this forum that a painting can be dusted a few times a year with a soft brush. Is there a particular type of brush that you would recommend for this?

Also, for an unvarnished oil painting, can you explain how grime becomes chemically bonded with the paint? I wasn’t able to find any information about how this process happens. Also, once the grime is bonded can it be removed?

Thank you for your help

Zinc grounds in linen updates

Question asked 2021-03-31 17:16:12 ... Most recent comment 2021-04-01 18:09:26
Oil Paint Flexible Supports Grounds / Priming

Hi, 

I have been reading some of the questions on this forum from a few years ago about the concerns with zinc in oil grounds on linen. I was wondering if there were any updates or studies on how such linen may behave over time? 

I am trying to figure out what might happen to the paintings I have already completed in linen with these grounds. 

Thank you for your help

Tinted Grounds for Silverpoint

Question asked 2021-03-14 09:02:58 ... Most recent comment 2021-03-18 21:32:54
Acrylic Chalk Drawing Materials Grounds / Priming

​Hello,

I am currently involved in running a series of tests for an upcoming project. I want to create a series of silverpoint drawings on some uniformly tinted 5" x 8" HDF panels. For the dark values in silverpoint I want to achieve a mid to three quarter tone gray (but no more), which I imagine touching up with some white highlights as a final touch. 

So I'm trying to decide what is the best way to prepare the ground, do I go traditional (chalk gesso) or modern (acrylic)? 

For to the acrylic direction, I have already created two tests: 

One is a smooth yet absorbent HDF surface prepared with Golden Acrylic Gesso (which I have tinted using acrylic tube paint). 4-6 coats. Lightly sanded inbetween to remove brushstrokes. The tint is good. Over this I brushed a layer of (transparent) Golden Pastel Ground. The result is very toothy and feels like rough sandpaper. Nice. The silverpoint test marks I have made appear to be darker than usual. Thus there appears to be sufficient contrast between the silverpoint and the tinted ground. I imagine touching up the highlights using a white gouache, but havent't tried it yet. Will there be any absorbency issues with that? Should I use acrylic paint or is gouache OK?

The second test is on a smooth yet absorbent HDF surface prepared with Golden Acrylic gesso over which I brushed Golden Silverpoint Ground. This time the acrylic gesso was untinted because I knew I would be introducing the tint through the Golden Silverpoint Ground - which is opaque. The result feels less toothy to the touch, (actually it feels like smooth plastic), but does appear to take the silverpoint test marks well enough. Made repeatedly thgese could become the mid-value gray tonality I seek? I haven't tried the white gouache highlight test here either but my questions are the same. Will there be any absorbency issues with that? Should I use acrylic paint or is gouache OK?

However, my main question concerns the traditional approach. If I were to go that direction using RSglue/chalk gesso, I imagine adding some terra verte and maybe a small bit of burnt umber to my gesso ground prep. This would achieve the tint I am looking for. And if these dry pigments were less than 10% by volume (surely it would be even less than that) I think that these should be no problem to the integrity of the gesso. Is that correct?

In addition, I am wondering if there is a way increase the tooth of the traditional chalk gesso ground so as to increase the value of the silverpoint marks? Marble dust or other additives, etc...? Coarse sanding of the final surface? Any suggestions? 

Thanks for the feedback. I really appreciate being able to ask my questions of well informed resources.

Combining Acrylic over graphite

Question asked 2021-02-11 10:35:28 ... Most recent comment 2021-03-16 17:54:32
Acrylic Drawing Materials Paint Additives Paint Mediums Pencil Varnishes

​Hello dear people from Mitra!

I have a question regarding mixed media basically. 

If i have a fully rendered graphite pencil drawing on thick watercolor paper (with all details and deep shadows done, it has a lot of graphite on it) and i want to paint over that with acrylics , what is the best and safe way to do that? 

Is it enough to just put a layer of a clear Matte Medium and than to paint over that with acrylics? 

Or is it safer to first put a coat of Pastel, Charcoal Fixative ( it is Talens Fixative and it contains :  Colourless resins, ethanol ) and i think it is workable fixative,   and then to paint with acrylics and to use a acrylic matte medium in it? 

Thank you in advance and i hope you are all ok and safe during these times.


Kindest regards

Marko Karadjinovic

consolidation

Question asked 2021-03-15 16:40:13 ... Most recent comment 2021-03-16 11:42:15
Art Conservation Topics

​I am applying diluted Jade 403 to acrylic paint to the the cracked/damaged areas before retouching. Can anyone recommend how diluted the pva(Jade) should be and if it is a good idea to apply more than one coat. 

Mysterious Discoloration

Question asked 2021-03-12 10:21:44 ... Most recent comment 2021-03-15 15:06:14
Oil Paint

​Hi Brian, thank you for your response. Very astute of you to ask about storage. My panels were stored for several months in vellum envelopes in the mostly dark storage racks of my studio. I always thought only lead based materials would yellow. So I was surprised when I saw the extent of yellowing on these paintings. 

I used a fair amount of medium on the Titanium white paint for the backgrounds. The paint I use is this luscious, rich, Italian paint, but quite stiff out of the tube. 

Why RSG? I smile as I write this- I'm old school! I was trained in the 80's and 90's art schools, and that's what we were taught. I haven't had problems before, but of course, I am open to updating my methods. 

Thanks! Maryam

Mysterious Discoloration

Question asked 2021-03-11 21:28:29 ... Most recent comment 2021-03-14 21:35:21
Oil Paint

​Hello MITRA forum, I just experienced an oil painting disaster. A series of oil paintings with Titanium white backgrounds yellowed and dulled after several months in my studio storage. Where did I go wrong?! Was it my ground? Oil paint pigment? Medium? Varnish? All of the above?! These are the materials I used: 

1. RSG sizing on portrait linen over maple board.

2. Acrylic gesso ground (100% acrylic polymer).

3. Titanium white oil paint for the subject backgrounds. Paint tube notes Titanium Dioxide in safflower and poppy oil.

4. Neo Meglip medium. Described as a contemporary version of Maroger. Contains Petroleum Naphta.

5. Satin archival varnish. A mineral spirit acrylic aerosol w/UVLS. The fine print notes contains: Acetone, Propane, N-butane, Petroleum Distillates, Solvent Naphta, Trimethylbenzene.

Thank you for your thoughts!

Maryam

Golden Polymer Varnish for Egg Tempera

Question asked 2021-03-05 21:47:38 ... Most recent comment 2021-03-12 08:09:01
Egg Tempera Varnishes

​I'm looking into using Golden Polymer Varnish on my egg tempera icons. What would be the drawbacks of using this varnish?

In my experience, other varnishes cause FAM or blooming (I think the solvents in oil-based varnishes aggravate the lipids, especially Gamvar). Golden Polymer Varnish is the only water-thinnable varnish I've found that is also reversible/removable (Lascaux doesn't seem to be reversible, at least that I can find...or is it?). Golden does not seem to cause immediate blooming in my tests, even on new paint swatches a few days old (not that I plan to varnish that soon). Reversability is important to me since it is quite likely for an icon to get lipstick on it eventually, if not oily spot, etc.

I like the look of the matte surface as it is quite similar to the egg; the gloss looks fantastic over the gold. A Golden technical expert said to use the gloss first to seal it, then use the matte over top for the final sheen. So, I can cover the entire icon (gold and tempera) with gloss, then cover only the tempera with matte. The entire surface is then protected and removable.

I've also seen in another thread the recommendation to use Krylon Crystal Clear as an isolation coat. I'm a little worried about orange peel, to be honest, but I think that's worth looking into as well.

Also in another thread was the concern about the alkalinity of this varnish. Would that negatively interact with the egg tempera? The expert at Golden said they do not recommend the Polymer Varnish for oil paint. The binder in tempera is a drying oil. Will this be problematic?

Thank you for your help.

Brian Matthew Whirledge

 

Linen canvas and GAC 200 question

Question asked 2021-03-07 05:51:14 ... Most recent comment 2021-03-11 04:48:52
Grounds / Priming Flexible Supports Oil Paint Sizes and Adhesives

​Hi,

Some new questions sprung up thanks to covid and Brexit (I get my stuff from GBR to EU). A 450 GBP packet now costs 140 GBP just to deliver to Hungary. Before Brexit, large shipments such as this were gratis or cheap at minimum... I am not here to rant, just wanted to take stock of the unfortunate situation.

Do you happen to know good and trustworthy canvas brands and retailers, preferably in the EU? Artfix is pretty widespread here, but markedly costlier than the others. I would like an artist's grade linen canvas that is also not prohibitively expensive.

Secondly, is it worth to save money (even 140 USD!) by buying a medium textured canvas instead of a fine one? Or is it less archival for being more porous/more loosely woven? I will do portrait stuff, by the way.

With regards to sizing, I'm planning on getting the GAC 200, which is proposed by Sarah Sands (2 very thin layers) and the tech support guy I talked to. However, on Golden's webpage it says it's not recommended for flexible supports.* I firmly trust the people from Golden (more than the webpage), just wanted to double check if someone can reassure me that it is adequate. :) *Note: I will further apply 2 coats of Golden acrylic gesso and 1 layer of Rublev lead ground, so the GAC 200 will not be used alone, if that matters.

By the way, are unused credit cards ok for the thin application of sizes/grounds?

Thanks in advance!

Hope you're all well,

Péter Hegedűs

Acrylic dispersion ground adhesion problems with acm panel

Question asked 2021-03-07 06:08:25 ... Most recent comment 2021-03-09 02:34:43
Acrylic Grounds / Priming Oil Paint

​Hello,

I'm an oil painter that has had good experiences with using ACM panels with an acrylic dispersion ground as a substrate to paint on. However I noticed some adhesion issues with the last batch of panels I primed and was wondering if anyone has any advice on how to move forward, things to consider etc..

My process for preparing the ground has been as follows;

1) Lighlty scuff/sand the polyester surface of the ACM panel making sure not to sand down to the aluminium surface.

2) Clean the surface with 97% Ethanol

3) Apply a first layer of Golden Acrylic 'gesso' mixed with GAC 200 in a ratio of roughly 60/40 - 70/30

4) Leave to dry for 24 hours

5) Apply a second coat of the Acrylic 'gesso' with a little bit of water added to improve consistency for easier brushing on the primer. (Max 10% of water) I don't measure those amounts precisely, doing just by feel.

6) leave to dry for 24 hours

7) Repeat steps 5) and 6) 2 times.

8) Finish the ground with a layer of pure Golden acrylic gesso, no water added.


I live in Belgium and prepared these panels last month when it was pretty cold (wintertime) although the temperatures in my studio were normal room temperature during the day. During the nights it will have beeen colder however, so some temp fluctuation will have occurred. I left the panels to dry for 2 weeks and performed an adhesion test on one of the panels by crosshatching with a blade making little 1/10 inch squares and applying a piece of ducktape and swiftly ripping it off. Result: over 50% of the primer stuck to the tape and came loose...

If I take a palette knife and scratch the side over the delaminated area trying to remove more paint I have to apply some pressure to scratch it off, so there is some amount of bonding but I'm not happy with that result. 

How to move forward? Will all of these recently prepared panels be totally unsuitable to paint on? Do I have to worry about more severe delamination of the painted surface in the future? What risks do I take when painting on this surface? Are there ways to improve the current state of the grounds without completely sanding off all of the layers and starting over? 


Any advise highly welcomed and appreciated. 

Kind regards,

Tom

restoring wood and canvas sculpture painted with acrylic

Question asked 2021-03-04 17:55:48 ... Most recent comment 2021-03-04 18:36:45
Art Conservation Topics

​I am wondering if there is any concern/issue of compatability using fluid acrylics over older acrylic paint.  There is a lot of cracking both on the painted wood and painted canvas. Also, if anyone has any suggestions about matching colors, I am open to that- but less critical (I'm not a trained painter! Or restorer for that matter.)

Painting with gouache on panels

Question asked 2021-02-27 13:00:10 ... Most recent comment 2021-03-02 12:34:57
Gouache Grounds / Priming Pigments Rigid Supports

I would love to hear any thoughts from a conservation standpoint regarding using gouache on prepared rigid surfaces. I paint with gouache (I typically use Holbein or Turner acryla gouache for their flatness and opacity, but have experimented with different brands) on gessoed cradled panels, either baltic birch or hardboard. Since gouache is water-soluable (though I find that the acrylic gouache is less inclined than artist's gouache to reactivate with moisture), I'm curious about whether it would be advisable to add some kind of finish to the board after the painting is done. I've experimented with a few different varnishes, but I know these kinds of finishes can be problematic, and I also don't like how the varnish changes the surface of the painting... even matte ones add some kind of sheen. Is there a way to add a level of protection from light and moisture to gouache works on panel without framing/glazing them? Thanks for any opinions.

Stand oil gone hazy/foggy

Question asked 2021-02-25 15:34:37 ... Most recent comment 2021-03-02 06:02:00
Oil Paint Drying Oils Storage

​Hi, 

IMG_20210223_115457.jpg

In the picture above, hopefully you will se the haziness I am talking about. I don't know if this is ok? It developed little spots of "opaque smudges" everywhere. The stand oil was not exposed to direct sunlight. 

Another similar question is that W&N satin metacrylate-based varnish is expected to settle down, right? With this one I am not so much concerned because it has to be shaken well before use anyway. 

Thanks for your input! 

Péter Hegedűs

Oil Paint Thickeners

Question asked 2021-02-28 16:26:37 ... Most recent comment 2021-02-28 20:16:05
Oil Paint

​With some pigments my oil paint slumps.   I use Tixogel VZ, Aluminum Stearate, wax, and fumed silca.  I use a ball mill with acetone and linseed oil to grind the pigment and then evaporate the acetone.  I find with a pigment like ultramarine blue I still have problems.  The oil also separates from the paint in the tube.  I just don't know how much of anything to use or how to use it.  I grind the Tixogel VZ into acetone first, that is about all I can find on how to thicken.  Thanks for any input.  

DTM Bonding Primer by Sherwin Williams - presence of zinc

Question asked 2021-02-24 01:07:40 ... Most recent comment 2021-02-26 17:45:54
Art Conservation Topics Grounds / Priming Scientific Analysis

In a number of places you recommend DTM Bonding Primer by Sherwin Williams as a ground, particularly for use with aluminium panels. 

The EDS data sheet suggests it contains zinc.

Zinc (as Zn)             2% by weight

Zinc Compound      3% by weight.

https://www.paintdocs.com/docs/webPDF.jsp?SITEID=SWPCGPROT&doctype=EDS&prodno=035777281734&lang=2

In dry form the percentage of zinc will be much higher. 

Yet elsewhere you frequently warn to check for zinc content. For example in your Grounds and Primers technical resources state: '​Zinc white has been found to react with components in oils and alkyds and form “metal soaps,” which in turn can give rise to delamination, wrinkling, the formation of white-colored aggregates, and the softening of ground/paint layers. Research is presently being carried out to determine the extent of damage that can occur when these materials are present.'

Can you please clarify? Is the zinc in a different form or are there other reasons why this product is suitable despite the presence of zinc? Have I misread the EDS - I'm not a chemist! There are a number of people on my forum (Wetcanvas) discussing this and we are interested in the clarification. 

Zinc white detection

Question asked 2021-02-22 07:48:52 ... Most recent comment 2021-02-25 16:51:01
Oil Paint Pigments

Greetings

It has already been written quite a lot about problematic nature of Zinc white in oil. In case one is not sure about partcular oil color composition (e.g. no pigment info on a tube, or no longer existing company, or just customer service not answering to questions), is there any way how to detect the presence of zinc white? 

Kremer pigmente offers various chemicals https://www.kremer-pigmente.com/en/shop/solvents-chemicals-additives/chemicals/?c2V0TnVt=YWxs

Is it possible to use some sort of chemical (liquid, powdered) which, when mixed with paint, will react with zinc white in a certain way (for example the hue of paint will change) and therefore prove its presence even if it is present in small amount?

DTM Bonding Primer by Sherwin Williams - presence of zinc

Question asked 2021-02-23 21:41:29 ... Most recent comment 2021-02-23 21:32:00
Art Conservation Topics Grounds / Priming

In your reference materials on Grounds and Primers you are very clear about the need to avoid zinc: "zinc white has been found to react with components in oils and alkyds and form “metal soaps,” which in turn can give rise to delamination, wrinkling, the formation of white-colored aggregates, and the softening of ground/paint layers." 

On several places on this site you recommend DTM Bonding Primer by Sherwin Williams, particularly for ACM. 

The EDS data sheet suggests it contains zinc:

Zinc (as Zn)             2% by weight

Zinc Compound      3% by weight.

https://www.paintdocs.com/docs/webPDF.jsp?SITEID=SWPCGPROT&doctype=EDS&prodno=035777281734&lang=2

I'm not a chemist but a group of us at Wetcanvas forum are seeking clarification. Is this zinc in a different form that doesn't create problems? If so what forms of zinc do not need to be avoided? Have I misinterpreted the EDS?

Preparation for hardboard - understanding the questions

Question asked 2021-02-22 03:17:10 ... Most recent comment 2021-02-22 20:53:29
Art Conservation Topics Alkyd Grounds / Priming Rigid Supports Scientific Analysis

I usually paint on hardboard/masonite. I want to strengthen my conservation preparation which includes: a) Best techniques /materials; b) Understanding the questions and answers. 

I have been recommended Zinsser Cover Stain (VT Styrenated Modified Alkyd, Calcium Carbonate, Magnesium Silicate, Titanium Dioxide.) It would be really simple if it worked. But I'd definitely take proven methods over ease of use and possibilities. 

I’m trying to understand the questions. 

(1. The painting surface: (canvas, board, plaster wall) needs to be resistant to movement (expansion/contraction or bending), moisture, degradation (breaking down of the material) or release of chemicals. For masonite I build a cradle to keep it firm. Sometimes they need sealing. Chemical stability is a plus.

2. Barrier (size/etc): Some surfaces need sealing to minimise moisture absorption, moulds, etc and to stop it leaching chemicals into the painting. This barrier is best if it’s chemically stable including pH neutral. 

3. Ground: Oil paints need ‘tooth’ to grip a surface for a) Easier laying of paint; b) Sufficient adhesion to avoid peeling down the track. Best grounds will be very stable so that they don’t leach chemicals or react with the oil or the pigments, and stable so they don’t break down. All the ingredients. It also shouldn’t be too absorbent of either pigment or oil.

Questions:

I’m trying to understand the questions:

1. The painting surface: (canvas, board, plaster wall) needs to be resistant to movement (expansion/contraction or bending), moisture, degradation (breaking down of the material) or release of chemicals. For masonite I build a cradle to keep it firm. Sometimes they need sealing. Chemical stability is a plus.

2. Barrier (size/etc): Some surfaces need sealing to minimise moisture absorption, moulds, etc and to stop it leaching chemicals into the painting. This barrier is best if it’s chemically stable, including pH neutral. 

3. Ground: Oil paints need ‘tooth’ to grip a surface for a) Easier laying of paint; b) Sufficient adhesion to avoid peeling down the track. Best grounds will be very stable so that they don’t leach chemicals or react with the oil or the pigments, and stable so they don’t break down at molecular level, crack, movement etc. All the ingredients. It also shouldn’t be too absorbent of either pigment or oil. 

Questions: 1. What is the best proven preparation for board for conservation? 2. Where can I find the research-based material to build a basic understanding of the correct questions/criteria? Is my list close? 3.  Zinsser cover stain - I gather there are variations in VT Styrenated Modified Alkyds - is there a view on this product or similar? In some ways I'm interested in asking their technical team the right questions. The test of time it hasn't passed, I know. 

venetians schools 6-9 coats of size/primer for linen canvas

Question asked 2021-02-20 19:32:59 ... Most recent comment 2021-02-22 11:44:26
Animal Glue Grounds / Priming Flexible Supports Sizes and Adhesives

​Hello Mitra,

I read a while back that since the venetian school was painting on linen, and not wood, that they had to put less coats of size and gesso on their canvases.  Something along the lines of 6-9 coats.   These size coats and gesso coats (gesso sutile) were done thinly too.  This was done so that the size and gesso wouldnt crack due to the flexibility of the canvas.  I also read that this was also one of the reasons they went thicker with their paint.  The thicker paint served as an extra protection from the atmosphere.

Are 6-9 coats on linen fine?

Best Regards,

Hector


sun thickened and studio thickened linseed oil for mediums

Question asked 2021-02-20 07:59:11 ... Most recent comment 2021-02-20 10:11:20
Paint Mediums

​I refined my own linseed oil (from flaxseed oil). It was my understanding that you could 1. put it in a jar in a studio window and age it; 2. put it in a tray in direct sunlight for a period of time then put it in a jar. These have now become very viscous. I thought this was good; that it had become "stand oil". But reading the Mayer book, I think he says this oil is oxidized and cannot be used due to high likelihood of more yellowing. I believe the people at Natural Pigments said thickened oil has to be heated, not just aged. So my question is: is this 'studio/outdoor thickened' oil useless? I would have to mix it with thinner oil or solvent to use it.

Correcting an overly dark undercolour in Imprimatura

Question asked 2021-02-18 02:26:56 ... Most recent comment 2021-02-19 21:21:45
Oil Paint

​Dear MITRA staff I  was informed by my teacher about a process he referred to as "double Improimatura" in which one starts with a coat of Venetian Red oil paint or similar (thinly applied) followed by a light grey layer, which should be scumbled over the top. This was supposed to create an opalescent kind of grey. However despite using very thin layers, I've found the Venetian Red is quite dominant and I'm concerned about it showing through more and more over the years as I know oil paints become increasingly transparent over time. Needless to say, perhaps, I probably will not use this procedure again!--or if I do it will be with a much, much lighter and more translucnet undercolour than Venetian Red. In the meantime though I would like to salvage the panels I've treated in this way, to whatever extent is possible. Multiple, very thin, scumbled/scrubbed on coats of Lead White mixed with a light grey (composed of palette scrapings neutralised to a grey colour) haven't subdued the VR to the extent I would prefer so I thought I should do some more scumbled "layers" with some titanium thrown into my grey mix, given that it has more opacity than Lead White. I dont want to compltely obliterate the VR, just for it to be welll subdued so that my grey remains fairly grey not a grey-sprinkled dull pinky colour. BTW I am prepared for the fact that all these panels may need to be considered suitiable only for studies or master copies, given that the prognosis in terms of overall darkening may be rather dire. Would this be an appropriate level of pessimism to have? Is my plan--to continue with a couple more scumbles, this time with some Titanium White added as noted above-- if executed with due regard to fat over lean (flexible over inflexible) principles and if pplied in the same very thin, scrubby scumbly way, reasonable? 

A quest for long-lasting stretched linen surface

Question asked 2021-02-14 19:21:52 ... Most recent comment 2021-02-17 07:24:19
Oil Paint Sizes and Adhesives Grounds / Priming Flexible Supports

​Hi all,

I would like to create the most archival stretched linen surface for oil painting, as far as my budget allows it.

First of all, I plan to use lead ground in the last one or two layers in the process. However, I was thinking about including acrylic grounds, so that I don't use up the expensive lead ground that fast. However, there seems to be a division in the art world, where some swear by the use of sizing before lead grounds, whereas others just apply four coats of acrylic gesso. Again, I've also heard on the wetcanvas forum, that acrylic gesso alone will leave the canvas susceptible to deterioration from the back (because canvas is not sized). The implication for me in this case is that maybe I should use some sort of sizing (PVA, GAC etc.), then acrylic gesso and then the lead ground, for the utmost archival property.

At the end of the day, my question is basically: how to prepare the most archival lead ground without necessarily breaking the bank?

Some guidance would be very much appreciated!

Kind regards,

Péter Hegedűs

Repainting a plaster statue with oil paints

Question asked 2021-02-13 14:35:55 ... Most recent comment 2021-02-14 22:46:45
Oil Paint Other Rigid Supports Sizes and Adhesives

If you were repainting a large old plaster statue (the corpus from an old church crucifix from 50+ years ago) using oil paints, would you apply a sizing? I've been thinking that once I've removed all of the old paint and fixed the fine cracks, I'll use an oil paint primer like those used to prep plaster walls. Does this seem like a good plan? I’d love any advice you could share.​

Sunflower oil?

Question asked 2021-02-14 12:50:24 ... Most recent comment 2021-02-14 21:33:06
Oil Paint

​I live in Turkey and I need to paint now using non toxic materials. For cleaning brushes ,  I am using sunflower oil  will this cause problems. 

flattening a little dimple in an oil painting

Question asked 2021-02-07 23:55:34 ... Most recent comment 2021-02-08 19:32:53
Art Conservation Topics

​I have a oil painting with a s 1/4" dimple in the corner of the painting. There is no noticable damage to the canvas, from the back. The paint is slightly damaged but no paint is missing.

I used a little distilled water on the back of the canvas and about 1/2 of the indention came out. 

I hate to reline the whole canvas to eliminate the indention.

Any thoughts are appreciated.

Dating a vintage copy of Hals Baffoon

Question asked 2021-01-27 12:20:07 ... Most recent comment 2021-02-08 18:52:36
Art Conservation Topics Scientific Analysis Oil Paint

​I have a vintage copy of Franz Hals "Baffoon with a Lute". I would like to estimate the age of this copy.

I have included photos of the stretcher, mounting tacks, back of the canvas, sides of the canvas, and a couple of pictures of the front of the painting.

It was in a frame made in the 1960s, but I think it is older than that. It appears to be in the original stretcher. The mounting tacks are not "blued" and they have rough shaped heads of different sizes.  The back of the canvas is not white but has white spots that may suggest it is soiled. The painting does not appear to have been varnished. It is darker than the original "Baffoon" and has slightly less detail. The decoration on the hat is different than the original "Baffoon".

Any suggestions on how I might date this copy would be appreciated.01 Hals canvas back 1.jpg02 Hals mounting tack side 1.jpg03 Hals mounting tack heads 2.jpg04 Hals front corner and edge.jpg05 Hals front texture of hand 1.jpgBaffoon Front View.jpg

casein-acrylic binder as a size for priming linen?

Question asked 2021-01-08 05:47:32 ... Most recent comment 2021-01-25 15:41:08
Casein Sizes and Adhesives Grounds / Priming Oil Paint Flexible Supports

I'm looking for the best way to size my linen, when using a lead-oil ground. 

A combination of Golden GAC 400 en GAC 100, or 2 coats of GAC 200 gives good results. However, I have also tried casein-acrylic binder by Ara Colours (https://www.aracolours.com/about-ara/auxiliary-products/). They are a part of Old Holland.

The descrition says: "Casein acrylic binder V350 is a modern alternative to rabbit glue. It gives a strong flexible film for the preparation of the canvas. Casein acrylic binder is insensitive to moisture after drying."

It becomes indeed very stiff (much more than the GAC 400 or 200) even after a year or so, which is probably due to the casein. This stiffness is very desirable of course, but I also read that casein becomes brittle. Is it possible that this brittleness is counterbalanced by the acrylic? And is casein-acrylic able to block oil absorption? So, can casein-acrylic binder be a good size if you want you painting to last?

I have mailed Ara Colours several times with this question about how it works, but never got an answer, so I hope someone can help me here.

Protein Denaturation

Question asked 2021-01-17 08:28:02 ... Most recent comment 2021-01-19 21:30:04

​Hello MITRA,

I have an egg tempera student with a background in icon painting who makes her medium by combining 1 part yolk with 2 parts wine.  For my class, she changed the ratio to 1 part yolk to 1 part wine (since I work with a thicker medium).   

I'm not a fan of adding alcohol to medium: I prefer just egg yolk and water (cracking a fresh egg as needed; and adding isopropyl alcohol only to the few colors that actually need help dispersing).  The simpler a paint system is the less that can go wrong, and the easier problems are to diganose.  But I realize many painters are used to adding wine or vodka to medium, and of course they are free to work as they please.

This morning her medium, which she keeps refrigerated when not in use, had "curdled". I explained that this is (I believe) protein denaturation: alcohol is causing the molecular bonds in the protein portion of yolk to break down, the same as cooking an egg.  

So, two questions: 

1. Why doesn't this happen everytime alcohol is added to egg yolk?  Does egg oil sort of "encapsulate" the proteins and protect them from the denaturing effect of alcohol?  I understand there is less protein in yolk than in egg white, but still there is some, and clearly (from her example) it's capable of denaturing.

2.  Any guesses what casued her medium to denature?

Hope some of you chemists out there can shed light on this.


the vulnerability of traditionally gessoed ground to water media

Question asked 2020-12-17 05:39:47 ... Most recent comment 2021-01-17 16:13:26
Grounds / Priming Gilding

​Hello Mitra... so happy to have stumbled onto this forum via Koo Schadler's website. 

I've been dipping into the world of water gilding and have a strong desire to begin using it in my painting. 

The process I've been considering and experimenting with is as follows:

Cradling 1/4" plywood panel. 

Coating panel twice, front and back, with Zinser white shellac

After lightly sanding surface applying linen gauze soaked in 15% RSG

application of 10% RSG /Bologna chalk gesso (8-9 coats)

application of white kaolin clay and titanium dioxide white (10:1) with 10% RSG (6 coats)

*But now this is where things get tricky... I would like to paint onto the surface very loosely with water media, (Golden High flow acrylic) before water gilding the whole surface and bringing it to a high polish, then removing the gilding where I want to reveal the under painting, coating it with Golden MSA varnish and a coat of GAC 100 before I oil paint on top of the entire thing.... I know, talk about over-complicating things. 

My questions are:

Does this process raise any red flags for soundness and archivability? Even though loosely water painting onto the kaolin surface does not appear to cause any issues, I worry about the soundness of the gesso after I've wet it? I'm stuck on using traditional gesso because I'm looking for the high polish the kaolin provides. Unfortunately any ready made bole products I can find here in europe aren't white enough.... even with the addition of 1/10 titanium. 

Another concern is the ability of traditional gilding liquor to adhere the leaf considering I've now covered it with a water-thin layer of acrylic? I've noticed on some websites here in Italy that they use fish glue to adhere the leaf after traditional gesso prep. I've since secured some Isinglass (Selinski) and I'm wondering if this is a sound way to adhere the leaf that will allow a true burnish? Should I apply a coat of glue and let it dry, then apply the leaf in a normal fashion with gilder's liquor? Plus I honestly have no idea how to prepare the glue or at what strength I should be using it.

Any expertise and help would be greatly appreciated. Just hoping I'm not completely off my rocker on this one, because I've been working for well over two years to nail this process and I'd hate to give up at this point, but I keep running into archival walls and I'm beginning to doubt that what I want to achieve is doable. 

Patching painted canvas that will be painted over

Question asked 2021-01-09 13:20:07 ... Most recent comment 2021-01-14 20:05:06
Oil Paint

​hi!  I have two oil paintings with scuffed/torn corners.  One is obvious on the actual piece and I would like to paint over it, but am worried that the scuff has gone to the canvas layer and oil may rot the area of the corner.  The other is on the sides of the canvas, but I was hoping to paint all around the sides as well.  Those have definitely gone past the gesso layer and exposed the raw canvas.   The one that is on the image was done in February 2020, and the other in May, although I recently started painting on that one again before I noticed the tears.  

any advice how to safely patch these areas in a timely manner so I can paint over them sooner than later would be very helpful  thank you!

5E9D697D-65BC-4E1F-A2C5-651AE20F8E52.jpeg

5CF27B39-69A9-4F49-B340-D10287139165.jpegps. I am new to the forums so I apologize if this has been asked. I did search but couldn't find anything on it.

Repairing a Vintage, Plank Backed Picture Frame

Question asked 2021-01-10 17:04:03 ... Most recent comment 2021-01-13 11:24:23
Art Conservation Topics Matting, Framing, and Glazing Rigid Supports

​I am conserving a vintage frame constructed of pine, where the mitered corners have developed gaps as wide as 1/4" and where the frame has warped to about 2" from flat. It is a heavy 36" x 34" frame. The frame had 3/4" pine planks professionally tapered and glued to the back on all sides. 

I had to removed the backing planks to enable closing the gaps on the mitered corners. When I removed the backing planks, the warping was corrected. 

I would like to leave the backing planks off once the frame is properly repaired, but if they were part of the original frame fabrication, I should probably reinstall them. If they were added later to stabilize or strengthen the frame, I would likely leave them off.

I believe the frame was fabricated before 1950. It frames a hand painted copy of Hals "Baffoon Playing a Lute" that was possibly painted between 1880 and 1900.

Question: Do you know of a framing technique where planks are glued and nailed to the back of a frame to provide structural strength, either during original frame fabrication or to stabilize a frame at some later date?

Any recommendations would be appreciated.

Frame Front.jpgFrame Backing Plank Construction.jpgFrame Corner Misallignment 2.jpg

 

Museum mounting kit

Question asked 2020-12-14 18:11:35 ... Most recent comment 2021-01-11 11:28:05
Matting, Framing, and Glazing Art Conservation Topics

Lineco makes a product called the “Museum Mounting Kit” to make conservative mounting images easier. Do you consider this kit to be able provide true conservative mounting? If so how do think it compares to mounting techniques such as strips and corners that prevent any type of adhesive contact with the artwork?

Using Spray Fix on Charcoal for an oil painting

Question asked 2021-01-03 02:32:26 ... Most recent comment 2021-01-06 17:06:36
Oil Paint

Greetings,

I've heard of painters using spray fix on primed canvas ( (both oil and acrrlic ground) to fix a charcoal drawing before painting on top with oil and have assumed this could be problematic with potential delimination issues, but trying to gauge if this is overly cautious as long as the spray fix is applied reasonably thinly. 

Does Mitra recommend a best practice here for proceeding from a charcoal underdrawing? How is this issue different if the ground is oil based vs. Acrylic gesso? Are there better fixatives suited for this purpose if it is not to be avoided altogether?

Forgive me as I've seen this touched on in these forums, as in here, 

https://www.artcons.udel.edu/mitra/forums/question?QID=669

but feel like I am still missing info on this general topic here.

Happy New Year- Best, T

Cleaning old and unvarnished paintings

Question asked 2020-12-30 09:58:43 ... Most recent comment 2020-12-30 21:04:03
Oil Paint Art Conservation Topics

​What is the best way to clean old, unvarnished oil paintings in Belgian linen that have been affected by mold, dust, and some bits of paper stuck on some of them? These paintings were covered in glassin paper, parchment paper, and some in Manila paper and have been in storage for years. 

Also, it seems that most of the dusty white and ghostly appearance isn't really mold but something else. This haze effect is visible in the dark areas where the earthy colors are, but never in the lighter areas. Also, the backs of the paintings are very clean. So, I'm not sure if it's mold and how best to address this. I'm seeing so many conflicting advice online.

Note: I'm unable to go to a professional art restorer at this time, so will have to do everything myself. Please help. Would appreciate any advice. Thank you! 134152164_10157907941582358_7668322117097742284_n.jpg 

Cleaning old and unvarnished paintings

Question asked 2020-12-30 09:50:48 ... Most recent comment 2020-12-30 09:47:00
Art Conservation Topics Oil Paint

​What is the best way to clean old, unvarnished oil paintings in Belgian linen that have been affected by mold, dust, and some bits of paper stuck on some of them? These paintings were covered in glassin paper, parchment paper, and some in Manila paper and have been in storage for years. 

Also, it seems that most of the dusty white and ghostly appearance isn't really mold but something else. This haze effect is visible in the dark areas where the earthy colors are, but never in the lighter areas. The backs of the paintings are very clean. So, I'm not sure if it's mold and how best to address this. I'm seeing so many conflicting advice online.. Please help! Would appreciate any advice. Thank you!

Reducing absorbency of acrylic primer

Question asked 2020-12-13 10:56:03 ... Most recent comment 2020-12-14 15:13:47
Rigid Supports Sizes and Adhesives Flexible Supports

I'm using an acrylic primer to prime an MDF panel for subsequent (possible) acrylic underpainting, then ultimately oil painting.​ I've previously had problems with such surfaces "grabbing" the brush, making it almost impossible to blend paint nicely, as well as the paint drying out very fast/oil colors sinking in. I've heard two different bits of advice:

  1. Use PVA to seal the primer by applying a thin layer. 
  2. Use egg white, spreading it thinly and allowing to dry before painting.
I've tried acrylic medium before, but I found that it didn't improve the brushability all that much, it still has a certain "grab" to it.
Would either choice be better? Also, would the same advice hold for flexible support?

drawing

Question asked 2020-12-14 00:24:34 ... Most recent comment 2020-12-14 12:43:27

​Iis it ok to spray fixative on drawing paper BEFORE I do the pencil drawing? Reason: I like the graphite, which I use in tones, not lines,,to be be sometimes brushed to make lighter areas and also. I dont use workable fixative to do this but final fixative, and also to make the drawing easier to erase 

repair split at side of oil painting

Question asked 2020-12-13 07:53:42 ... Most recent comment 2020-12-13 17:35:39
Art Conservation Topics Oil Paint

​A painting of mine got into a show and I just noticed a weakening and the beginning of tearing at the back/side of the canvas. Can this be repaired without strip lining? And if so, how.

Water Block on Gesso

Question asked 2020-10-21 11:26:55 ... Most recent comment 2020-12-11 09:30:26
Animal Glue Egg Tempera Grounds / Priming Rigid Supports

​Hello Mitra!

I wonder if anyone here has experience with "water blocking" traditiona gesso on panel? I've seen very little about it, but I've read some suggestions that a gesso panel could be smoothed by working the surface with a hardwood block dipped in water.

It's hard for me to imagine this method fully removing brushstrokes, and I would worry that the paste worked up by the wet block would be unstable.

That said, the intorlerable amount of dust created sanding larger gesso panels has me searching for alternatives.

Perhaps an old school scraping method combined with a wet block?

If anyone has experience or resources to share on this topic, I would love to hear about it. Thank you

- eli bornowsky

Varnish beading up in places, on acrylic?

Question asked 2020-12-08 16:25:50 ... Most recent comment 2020-12-09 08:00:28
Acrylic Art Conservation Topics Scientific Analysis Varnishes

Hi all,

I recently varnished two paintings I completed that were in acrylic. One was in Golden OPEN which I had left to dry for several weeks and with using undiluted Gamvar Gloss it varnished beautifully with no issues.

The other painting was done with Amsterdam Standard and Liquitex Basics Acrylics (So not craft art products) that I left to dry for 2-3 weeks. But to my surprise I found that I had beading in some areas as I would with oil paints. I scrubbed with the brush to reduce the surface tension until the varnish applied properly (or mostly).

Still, I was surprised as I've not had this happen with acrylics before and I assumed that the relatively open surface (compared to oils) meant that beading couldn't occur.

Have you had this experience before when conserving acrylic paints? Is there anything you recommend I could do in the future to avoid this? It was interestingly how the other painting was completely fine though. Would it be the difference in the resins between the different companies products that contributed to this? If so, then perhaps an isolation coat with GOLDEN mediums (following their guidance) would resolve this?

Just interested in your thoughts..

Thanks,
Richard Phipps


Canvas on Masonite

Question asked 2020-12-08 21:57:57 ... Most recent comment 2020-12-08 22:14:51

​I want to adhere pre-primed canvas to masonite panels using acid free PVA glue. The panels are smooth on both sides.  Can I simply glue the canvas directly to the masonite as is or do I need to prep the surface in any way such as cleaning, sanding or priming?  (When I adhere canvas to plywood I seal it on all sides with pigmented shellac and then use acid-free PVA glue to attach the canvas so I may be just over-thinking this.)    

impasto oil rises to the surface

Question asked 2020-12-07 20:56:40 ... Most recent comment 2020-12-08 21:30:30
Oil Paint

​Many of my paintings are done in thick impasto oil paint using stand oil. I have done some testing (2 years ago) using different stand oils in impasto oil paints. I have noticed the oil rises to the surface and yellows slightly. When the dried oil is cracked open the paint is a bright white inside. I have tried poppy oil and even though that rises to the surface it does not yellow, but I noticed the paint is more brittle than those done with linseed/walnut stand oil. So my question is how to prevent the oil rising to the surface? Would bees wax help, or possibly add other issues.

slow drying of thick impasto

Question asked 2020-12-07 23:07:54 ... Most recent comment 2020-12-08 09:16:31
Drying Oils Paint Mediums

​How do you slow the drying of thick impasto oil paint (stand oil added as medium) to allow it to be worked for several days? I know pigment selection is crucial, as well as temperature/light exposure. Maybe spike oil substituted for odourless solvent, a less absorbent acrylic ground, may help. Poppy oil does help but the dried paint film is more brittle (from testing of samples). Am I asking the impossible to extend the drying time of fast driers like cobalt blue and also for it to remain flexible. I even had a box made to store the painting overnight with cotton balls soaked with clove oil, but this puts size restraints on the painting size.  I seem to solve one issue to just raise another one. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

varnishing on oil paint necessary

Question asked 2020-12-03 22:23:47 ... Most recent comment 2020-12-06 08:36:40
Varnishes

​I was inquiring if it is necessary to varnish oil paintings. I understand varnish can protect against UV light, dirt and abrasions, but I use very thick impasto oil paint. From what I understand it can take many years to dry. I add a stand oil to the paint, so the surface of the paint has a relatively even sheen upon drying so aesthetics is not an issue. From a conservation point of view is it best not to varnish, or varnish at about 3-6 months (probably with Gamvar). Does Frank Auerbach's work have problems as I do not think he varnished his paintings?

Cold Wax Medium as Varnish

Question asked 2020-12-04 14:43:35 ... Most recent comment 2020-12-04 15:31:03
Varnishes

​Can Gamblin's cold wax medium be applied to a painting as a final varnish? Will it provide adequate protection? I love the soft luster it provides. 

What to do about pinholes in oil on linen picture

Question asked 2020-12-01 08:25:56 ... Most recent comment 2020-12-01 22:10:34
Oil Paint Flexible Supports Art Conservation Topics

Question: Should I resize an oil on canvas after pinholes appeared?

I am a traditional oil painter working in San Diego. I've worked on the same picture for several years. The work is done on Claessens oil-primed Belgian linen, relatively thin and smoothe. I recently scraped the upper layers of paint off an unsatisfactory section (down to the tone ground).

Small, translucent areas and pinholes appeared (hardly surprising). 

I'm concerned the canvas could rot from direct contact with the paint. Two contacts in the industry have told me (1) the animal glue sizing penetrated the fibers, such that the risk of rot is minimal, and (2) I could apply animal glue size to the entire canvas from the reverse, but need to guard against uneven tension, warping, etc.

At present I think leaving it alone is best. I'll repaint that section and hope it doesn't rot.

Your thoughts on the matter will be appreciated.

Combining Organic and Non-Organic pigments to improve Lightfastness

Question asked 2020-11-26 08:16:25 ... Most recent comment 2020-12-01 18:21:41
Pigments Scientific Analysis Technical Art History

​Hi all,

From what I understand about pigments and from what I have read in articles from the paint coating industry, some non-Organic pigments have the ability to absorb rather than reflect UV light and without being so affected by the UV rays as most organic pigments can be.

I am thinking here of Iron Oxides, Nickel Antimony Titanium Yellow Rutile (PY53), and Chrome Antimony Titanate (PBr24) .

I believe from what I have read that the paint coating industry offer mixes of inorganic mineral pigments like this with much more chromatic organic pigments to improve lightfastness as well as opacity and reduce cost.

Am I correct in this assumption, and that if I mix say PY74 with PY53 (which is a weak tinter), or PR254 with PR101 I will improve lightfastness of the organic pigment on it's own at the expense of Chroma?

Thank you for your help,
Richard Phipps



gilsonite

Question asked 2020-12-01 06:04:33 ... Most recent comment 2020-12-01 06:44:58
Industrial and Non-Traditional Products

​hi I just wondering that I can use gilsonite or bitumen for house decoration and does it have a harmful point or not?

Zinc White (PW4) issues

Question asked 2020-11-23 11:50:16 ... Most recent comment 2020-11-24 07:09:57
Pigments Egg Tempera

According to recent research, zinc white (PW4) causes saponification in connection with oil paints. This means zinc white can cause long-term damage to the image. Is this also the case with zinc white and egg yolk tempera?  And how does it look like in connection with tempera grassa?

B-72 Application

Question asked 2020-11-20 09:39:59 ... Most recent comment 2020-11-22 15:08:14

Because the solvent (xylene) in my B-72 is noxious, I've been applying isolating layers in a unheated room above my studio - it's not freezing, but can get into the 40 degree F. range at times.  ​Anyone know the ambient temperature range at which one can safely apply B-72?

Thanks,

stringyness

Question asked 2020-11-12 11:04:40 ... Most recent comment 2020-11-17 13:54:29
Paint Making

​Hi,
every now and then, when I am making my own oilpaint, the paint gets too stringy. I'll add some Omyalite and/or some beeswax dissilved in oil, but that seems to help only a little.

What an I doing wrong? Is it perhaps the not-premium linseed oil? Is Omyalite not the right thickener?

Thanks in advance

MSA added as oil paint medium

Question asked 2020-11-07 12:51:11 ... Most recent comment 2020-11-10 18:09:57
Oil Paint

Hello –

First, thank you MITRA for providing such a wealth of information and expertise. I have greatly improved my craft by reading your resources and forums.

My question is not addressed in your resources articles. It is: can MSA (acrylic which is not water-based) be added to oil paint with no appreciable archival concerns? The scenario I am thinking of is if the oil painter paints thin and allows the surface to be touch-dry before applying the next layer. If this is possible, I think it would help in achieving one of my goals in terms of perceived depth and luminescence, similar to Maxfield Parrish, but lasting longer.

At least one commercial provider, Lukas, offers it, albeit with dammar, and it is advocated in other art technical materials discussions.

If it is possible, what are the other process steps or materials which need to be considered?

Thank you. 

Mediums for oils

Question asked 2020-10-30 13:08:19 ... Most recent comment 2020-10-30 21:14:44

​Hello again! When I use mediums is it best to stick to one type at the beginning? We experimented with an oil butter, sand and other stuff for a cool texture. 

Appropriate Substrate Material for Mounting Pastel paper (Roll)

Question asked 2020-10-26 16:47:52 ... Most recent comment 2020-10-30 15:19:12
Rigid Supports Sizes and Adhesives Pastel

​I am looking for an appropriate mounting surface for a 4' x 6' pastel paper. If I were to mount this on an aluminum panel what is the best way to do this? Using paper mounting hinges or an adhesive of some sort? I am not sure how the aluminum surface will react to adhesive. Also should the aluminum be specified to have a desired topical finish? Thank you for your time and look forward to hearing from you. Maria Marino

OIl painting for beginners

Question asked 2020-10-30 13:01:41 ... Most recent comment 2020-10-30 12:59:00

​I am new to oil paints and jsuyt started a course which is fab but I have so may questions about how thick oyu should apply the paint, what tools make the best mark making (i.e. spatulas, or brushes) and how many layers should I start with please? Thanks



Marble dust and Oil paint

Question asked 2020-10-26 09:06:15 ... Most recent comment 2020-10-26 17:50:48
Oil Paint Paint Mediums

Hi!
I want to add body to my oil paints, so I was researching about mixing marble dust with linseed oil and use that as a medium.

I don't have access to a lot of variety, fine art materials wise, so that seemed like a simple enought option.


I have a few of questions though:

1-Would it be better to just use linseed oil or would stand oil be a better alternative?
2-Could I use that mix in the initial layers, and then on the next layers use just pure paint? Or would I have to up the ammount of oil content for the next layers?

3-What ratio should I aim for? The consistency should be of pure oil paint from the tube?


Thank you!

Erasing charcoal, pigment or pastel stains

Question asked 2020-10-23 17:27:43 ... Most recent comment 2020-10-24 19:41:40
Drawing Materials Art Conservation Topics Other Pastel Studio Tools and Tips Watercolor

​A student just completed a wonderful charcoal drawing on Lanaquarelle watercolour paper. Unfortunately, she smudged it by holding it with her hands covered in charcoal dust. She tried to erase the stains, first with putty eraser, then with a normal eraser and finally with an electric eraser. The stains are still visible, as the paper is quite porous.

Do you have any suggestion on how to bring the whiteness back to the paper? Or is there any paint that looks exactly like the paper? We even thought of putting some soaked off-cuts of watercolour paper in the juicer, add some matte acrylic binder and apply it thinly over the stains!


Thank you

Primeing ACM panel

Question asked 2020-10-23 10:04:09 ... Most recent comment 2020-10-23 10:55:16
Oil Paint Rigid Supports Grounds / Priming

​Hi!

Would it be good practice to apply a layer of titatnium white mixed with an alkyd or cobalt dryer, on top of an acrylic polymer ("gesso"), when priming an ACM panel?


I'm a painter from Brazil and fine art supplies are hard to come by here. Ideally, I like to paint on oil-primed linen mounted on ACM panels, but linen, when you can find it here, is ridicoulosly over priced. Think like 4 times what you would pay in Europe or US.


So I'm priming my ACM panels with an acylic polymer ("acrylic gesso"). I sand it lightly and then apply up to 5 coats with a brush roller.

It is a fine surface to use, but I find that is too absorvent and the oils sink in way too much. The paint doen's flow as well and the darker colors become way too light the next day, making it impossible to judge it's values.


So a fellow painter reccomended the titatnium white with a dryer.

Would that be ok? What should be the ratio of paint to dryer?

Thank you!

Thanks for help with acrylic/alykd question

Question asked 2020-10-22 17:58:42 ... Most recent comment 2020-10-22 17:53:00


Mitra

Please excuse the delay in responding to the very helpful answers to my original question about mixing acrylic/alkyd mediums together - dealing with the damages from Hurricane Delta is taking a lot of my time.

Thanks to Brian Baade,Matthew Kinsey and George O’Hanlon, you have provided a couple more possible strings for my bow in the hunt for the best medium for me.

organic pigments... Not lightfast?

Question asked 2020-10-21 10:18:25 ... Most recent comment 2020-10-22 14:01:07
Pigments

https://www.naturalpigments.com/artist-materials/pigments-artists-paint-lightfast/

I found this article on natural pigments about the lightfastnes of organic pigments. Time to panic?

Sennelier Egg Tempera and Acrylic Gesso panels

Question asked 2017-03-08 11:44:47 ... Most recent comment 2020-10-20 20:13:11
Egg Tempera Grounds / Priming Rigid Supports

​i have read the descriptions for how to make real ET paint (fairly easy) and real ET panels with rabbit skin glue and whiting (very laborious).

I cannot believe that lazy people like me who buy ET in tubes still have to make a panel. Panels with true gesso on are availale from few retailers and are expensive. Sennelier make passing reference to use on canvas with acrylic gesso, but their information is very poor.

Are you able to offer advice on using these tubed ET paints with commercially available wood panels with acrylic gesso, please?


Absorbency characteristics of a lead oil ground?

Question asked 2020-10-17 06:36:52 ... Most recent comment 2020-10-20 03:33:35
Grounds / Priming

Hello all,

I am currently involved in a painting project consisting of 12 identically sized HDF panels (approximately 5" x 8") each of which have been prepared with slight textural differences (linen, cotton, or a collage of linen fabric all attached to the sized substrate with rabbit skin glue) or in a few cases, acrylic sculpting gel applied to the substrate over a few light coats of acrylic gesso. All these individaul treatments - each of which follow a preconceived design - preceded the two "final" coats of white lead primer (I used Old Holland "Cremser White" from a tin, which I understand is industrial lead carbonate ground with cold-pressed linseed oil. I thinned it to flowable consistency with five parts turpentine and one part stand oil). This primer was applied and cured for one year. (Not my plan to wait that long, it's just what happened)

Now I am beginning the painting process. To reiterate, the central idea for these panels is/was to paint in oils over a traditional white lead oil ground - with this variety of textural interventions - and see what kinds of effects occur. So, I'm entirely open to fortuitous visual accidents, but at the same time I do not want my experiments to result in lack of adhesion or longevity. 

Thus, my question/conundrum: the ground does not appear to be as absorbent as I might expect. Is this normal? This week I've done a very light, thinned imprimatura in yellow ochre over all twelve and let it dry three or four days. Then I transferred my design with charcoal and reinforced it in mars black (tube oil paint) heavily diluted with turpentine. I let these underdrawings dry two or three days. They look very good, but when I used a kneaded eraser to lightly remove the charcoal lines from my transfer I can see both yellow and black on my eraser. Not good, I think. Should I have waited longer for both of these underlayers to dry? They were certainly dry to the touch. Or did I make a mistake at the get go? Should I have thinned my lead primer with more turpentine and eliminated the stand oil?

I'd appreciate your thoughts or suggestions. Of course, if I need to, I can start over; recreate some of my textures, paint in oils over an acrylic gesso ground and chalk this one up to experience, however I am curious about the benefits of painting in oils over an oil based ground.

Thanks in advance for your insights.

Yours,

Ellen Trezevant

Technically sound way to do wipeout friendly ground and isolation layers

Question asked 2020-10-19 12:07:30 ... Most recent comment 2020-10-19 12:30:12
Grounds / Priming Oil Paint

I am getting very frustrated with my method but can not find the best way to fix things. I use hardboard primed with Gac100 and either Gamblin oil ground/Rublev alkyd/Wiliamsburg lead. Wait 3-4 weeks and apply a light tone of raw umber and Gamsol, wait 3 days. Start painting with unaltered tube paint, make a mistake and try to wipe it, the wipe takes off the tone and the white ground underneath is now stained. 

Ideally, I would like to have a very light tone or just white board and 2-3 painting layers on top, wiping as I go without damaging or staining what's underneath. I thought the tone was under bound but putting a richer tone was not recommended. I thought the ground was too absorbent but having a more closed off ground was not recommended either.

I'm sure I'm not the only artist trying to do this but I can't find a good example to follow. Maxwell Parrish supposedly used retouch varnish but everyone says that's a no go. Rockwell and Brad Kunkle use shellac and Richard Schmid says his lead oil ground allows him to wipe back to white but I am not able to replicate this with unaltered manufacturer grounds I tried. Please help.


Final Varnish new product help please!

Question asked 2020-10-12 16:35:05 ... Most recent comment 2020-10-17 20:50:30
Varnishes

​I used Old Holland Gloss Picture Varnish (made from ketone resin) on an oil painting as I was looking for a nonyellowing product.  It is too glossy.  Neither the supplier nor Old Holland can tell me if I can do a second layer with their Matte Picture Varnish without losing clarity.  Has anyone used these products?  

Mixing oils and alkyds

Question asked 2020-10-08 02:46:25 ... Most recent comment 2020-10-09 02:58:14
Alkyd Oil Paint

Kindly advise:  I work in oils, but rely heavily on alkyd paints to improve drying times.  I don’t mean alkyd mediums such as Liquin, but actual alkyd paints such as the W&N Griffin range.  According to W&N, it is acceptable to use alkyds for underpainting, and then work with regular oils over alkyds.  I take this a step further.  My underpainting is pure alkyd paint, and for the subsequent layers I mix alkyd and oil paints together.  I mix a bit of alkyd white with oil white, a bit of alkyd black with oil black.  These hybrid mixtures are then used to mix other colours which dry fairly quickly.  The upper layers of my paintings consist of pure oil paint, with some medium added to follow the fat-over-lean rule.  I should mention that I work on rigid supports, usually on a Gesso ground.  Can anyone foresee any issues with this technique?  Your advice would be appreciated!

Delamination of 1st or 2nd color layer while applying a couche

Question asked 2020-09-26 21:23:41 ... Most recent comment 2020-10-05 14:18:18

​Hello Everyone,

I find that when I need to apply a couch to paint into to merge my layers and match my value, sometimes my previous color layer starts wiping off, destroying hours and hours of previous work. This never used to happen when I was more reckless in my early years. But now I paint solvent free and use as little medium as possible. For context I paint on museum quality gesso board (acrylic ground). I use lead white and typically do my underpaintings with a mars color and white or old Holland raw umber. Sometimes I seal my drawing with acrylic matte medium, sometimes just a light layer of raw umber and lead white. What I can't seem to figure out is if my under layers are underbound or if the couche I'm applying is the cause of delamination. It was my belief that a couch would not only make each new layer fatter but INCREASE adhesion and not the opposite. I typically use oleogel or walnut gel as a medium. Does anyone know what could be causing this issue?

Artist

Question asked 2020-09-29 09:44:55 ... Most recent comment 2020-09-29 18:52:44
Health and Safety

​What are the health issues with being pregnate or having an infant in art schools or home studio? 

Golden Acrylic paint: pigment concentration

Question asked 2020-09-15 05:57:19 ... Most recent comment 2020-09-17 10:38:34
Acrylic Pigments

​Hi to the MITRA team,

I have questions about the pigment concentration (pigment load) of the Golden Paint line.

There are four viscosities in Golden paints (heavy body, soft, fluid and high flow acrylic) and I would like to know if there are differences in the pigment concentration between the Golden acrylic range.

I understand that the polymer binder used is the key to the consistency of the paint, but strictly speaking about the pigment concentration, what is the most loaded paint?

It is said in the description of the Golden paints that they contain no fillers or extenders, does it mean that the paint is fully pigmented as in some high quality oil paints?

If I want to extend acrylic paint while maintaining the most of the saturation, what should be the optimal dilution factor?

Thanks in advance,

Cyril

Use of eggwhite in oiling out mixture

Question asked 2020-08-29 09:19:42 ... Most recent comment 2020-08-30 00:24:38
Drying Oils

​Dear MITRA I have been reading about using a mixture of sun thickened linseed oil and egg white to oil out the painting surface at least initially (before the first layer; I'm not sure if my source recommends it between subsequent layers or not) and am wondering if this presents any problems as regards the stability of the paint film long term? 

Restoring color to a shellacked totem pole

Question asked 2020-08-13 13:55:17 ... Most recent comment 2020-08-28 08:28:30
Acrylic Alkyd Art Conservation Topics Dyes Grounds / Priming Industrial and Non-Traditional Products Oil Paint Other Paint Additives Paint Mediums Pigments Solvents and Thinners Varnishes

​I have a custom made totem pole that is over 20 years old.  It has been shellacked a few times in an effort to preserve the wood. Although this seemed to work, the colors have darkened and disappeared.  I am trying to restore the original colors and need advice as to what type of paint products to use. Would appreciate any advice. 

Russian Sauce vs Soft Pastels vs Watercolour

Question asked 2020-08-24 19:56:05 ... Most recent comment 2020-08-25 14:56:08
Pastel Watercolor Drawing Materials Ink

I’ve been curious about Russian sauce and its use in drawing. I see that some artists enjoy applying washes of this medium on their drawings. Is there any advantage of Russian Sauce when compared to washes made with powdered soft pastels or watercolour? And what’s the best brand of Russian Sauce? I only seem to find Yarka and no info about lightfastness? Thank you

ratio of Regalrez 1094 resin to solvent

Question asked 2020-08-21 21:34:31 ... Most recent comment 2020-08-22 20:21:45
Varnishes

​I have Regalrez 1094 in resin form, and i need to know the proper ratio of resin to solvent. I would like to limit the size of the resulting mixture to about 2 oz. per session. I do have Tinuvin 292 to add to the resultant mix.

Matting Agent

Question asked 2020-01-06 11:15:30 ... Most recent comment 2020-08-09 12:34:56
Paint Additives

​Hi MITRA,

Do you know specifically what substance(s) are added as matting agents to matte varnishes and mediums?   

Thanks, Koo

Golden fluid Tg

Question asked 2020-07-05 06:36:53 ... Most recent comment 2020-08-07 16:22:07
Art Conservation Topics Acrylic

Hello forum,

does anyone know what is the glass transition temperature of the Golden fluid acrylics?

I NEED HELP IDENTIFYING A "Dutch Oil Landscape Painted on Copper"

Question asked 2020-08-07 10:59:43 ... Most recent comment 2020-08-07 11:48:09

​Hello, I am hoping someone can give me some tips or adivce on the best way to identify the artist and name of a painting. My friend was given a painting through probate. The issue is that certificate on the back is missing (you can the square the patch on the back of the where the certifcate would be. The painting has no artist signature. 

All the info we have have is that it is a "Dutch oil landscape" and it is painted on copper.  I belive it is an orginal becuse it purchased 30 or so years ago from an auction house in New Orleans. However, the auction house has changed ownership 4-5 times since then and they do not have the records from 1995.

Please see the links below for pictures of the painting. Any help would be much apperciated!

https://ibb.co/2ZHD8xZ

https://ibb.co/0M4dHG3

https://ibb.co/Px072CJ

acrylic retarder

Question asked 2020-08-06 02:57:55 ... Most recent comment 2020-08-06 10:40:48
Paint Mediums Acrylic

324/5000

Hello Mitra, I have a bottle of propylene glycol and I am going to use it as a drying retardant.

I have read and tried different brands of retardants and each of them gives different ratios.

I assume that each brand uses different products and different dilutions.

-How much propylene glycol is safe to form a good paint film?

-Is there a more effective product than propylene glycol apart from using golden open gel medium?

Thanks!

Oil paint failure

Question asked 2020-08-01 14:52:48 ... Most recent comment 2020-08-02 16:32:00
Art Conservation Topics Grounds / Priming Oil Paint

Hi all,

I've just come back from Mallorca, Spain visiting my parents in law. I noticed one of the paintings they had in their house had quite substantial cracking (mostly in light areas.. zinc white?) and paint adhesion failure.

The painting was dated with the signature to 1944 and received a lot of indirect (or direct) sunlight and high temperatures.

I just thought it was interesting how badly the paint film was doing. I'm not sure if the canvas was primed correctly either?

Thanks,
Richard



PROBLEMS WITH ALKYDS (PAINT MAKING, MEDIUM MAKING)

Question asked 2020-07-15 05:15:01 ... Most recent comment 2020-07-17 20:16:38
Alkyd

699/5000

Hello Mitra, I have been experimenting with  AM (Kremer) alkyd resin not only to make paint but to make a medium and putty.

-Using the raw resin the paint becomes unusable in a matter of minutes.

Only when the resin is diluted in approximately 20% resin 80% normal linseed oil does the paint have desirable properties.

The same thing happens when I make a medium that becomes sticky in no time if I don't add oil.

My questions are:

1-Is it normal for this to happen?

2-When manufacturers name a line of paints as alkyd, is it possible that they only contain a very small fraction of resin?

I love the work that you are doing.

Thank you.

Acrylic gesso's opaque pigments

Question asked 2020-06-27 01:42:06 ... Most recent comment 2020-07-14 15:27:33
Acrylic Grounds / Priming

​It seems logical to suppose that the only opaque white used in the art market's acrylic gesso is titanium white, with no zinc white.  Is this a safe presumption?  I'm looking to reassure myself that there's nothing in these grounds for absorbed oils to react with.

Marc.

how to chose glass railing spigot?

Question asked 2020-07-13 06:38:25 ... Most recent comment 2020-07-13 14:30:36
Matting, Framing, and Glazing

Hi all,

I don't know if this question should be show in this cagegories if I am wrong, I am sorry.

My question is about the glazing and glass, about the glass railing spigot? As you known, there are many different kinds spigots, if build a new glass railing, chose the stainlesss steel or the brass one? which one is better? who can tell me? thanks very much

Jan

What Size for Casein Ground on Rigid Support

Question asked 2020-07-03 08:39:29 ... Most recent comment 2020-07-05 13:34:05
Sizes and Adhesives Grounds / Priming

​Hello,

New to this site...so I'm sorry if this has been asked before. Sometimes I use casein paint as a ground on rigid supports like hardboard to paint with oil colours on top. Also under it I tend to use rabbit skin glue as a size (or a transparent acrylic 'gesso' which I have found it to be a great sealer) Just wondering if the size layer is necessary...or if just few coats of skim milk might be enough to act as a size?

How are professional poster color paints made?

Question asked 2020-06-26 20:02:27 ... Most recent comment 2020-07-03 15:54:47
Paint Making Gouache

I read: https://pigment.tokyo/article/detail?id=28 

And contacted a few manufacturers, but they gave me very little info, other than that they have "extender pigment" and other additives. So not just gum arabic with pigment. 

I'm wondering if there is a poster color medium out there that I can just add a pigment dispersion to?  

I was recommended to come here from reddit, so first post! 

-Jeremy

Acrylic primer cleaning

Question asked 2020-06-23 16:50:42 ... Most recent comment 2020-06-26 17:33:09
Oil Paint Acrylic Grounds / Priming

​If acrylic is more vunerable to the solvents used to clean oil paint and remove varnish.  How should one guard against future damage on an oil painting applied over an acrylic primer?

Is it enough to cover the entire acrylic surface with oil paint?

What if an artist wishes to have gaps in the brush work. leaving blank white acrylic primer spaces?  Is this safe?  Should they reprime with a white oil paint first?

Marc

Oil paint directly on top of PVA size

Question asked 2020-06-24 16:35:57 ... Most recent comment 2020-06-25 22:24:23
Oil Paint

​A well know painter recently stated he uses Gamblin PVA size to seal his drawing on acid free 270 gsm smooth paper. When dry, he adheres the paper to a sealed rigid substrate. Then he paints directly over his drawing with oil paint. Is there any known problem with this method and does PVA seal the paper from the oils? Can oil paint adhere well to the PVA? Would it be better to seal the drawing with casein based fixative instead of PVA? 

Hands on drawing paper

Question asked 2020-06-24 15:42:37 ... Most recent comment 2020-06-25 18:43:39
Drawing Materials Handling and Transportation Pencil Art Conservation Topics Flexible Supports

​Hello dear people from Mitra!

I have a question about paper safety while drawing. 

I am really trying my best to put some paper beneath my arm(hand) while i am drawing so i dont put my bare hand on drawing paper.

But sometimes when i want to  put it aside, i touch it with my bare hands.  And sometimes my hands get a bit sweaty, but this lasts only few seconds...

The papers i use are thicker watercolor papers and are Acid Free, but i wanted to ask will these few direct contacts with paper and with barely sweaty hands cause a big problem? 

Thank you

Hansa yellow light (PY3) lightfastness in mixtures

Question asked 2020-06-23 01:28:13 ... Most recent comment 2020-06-25 06:52:32
Pigments

​Dear MITRA people. I have a large amount of Gamblin PY3 oil-based etching ink but have been reading recently that the lightfastness of this pigment is questionable. On further reading about it in the Just Paint newsletter from Golden in an article from 2018 about changes to their yellow range in acrylics, it seems that this poor rating is based on its behaviour as a tint when mixed with titanium white and it was suggested that there might be some sort of adverse synergy going on between them in acrylics. 

This article however also mentioned that it was performing well in oils (and strangely, watercolours). I do know lots of oil painters who feel it should be avoided, What is your opinion of the lightfastness of this pigment in oils (whether paint or printmaking ink) and would it be fair to imagine that if I use it in mixtures that don't include a white, it should be reasonably reliable? 

Preservation of Acrylic on Watercolor Paper

Question asked 2020-06-11 17:18:01 ... Most recent comment 2020-06-23 19:49:18
Acrylic Art Conservation Topics Varnishes

Should acrylic on watercolor paper be framed under glass? If so, why? The paint application was very watery, like watercolor paint. I used Golden Fluid acrylics. Or, does a varnish suffice? Thank you.

How Archival Are Acrylic Paintings?

Question asked 2020-06-19 20:20:42 ... Most recent comment 2020-06-23 19:46:47
Acrylic Art Conservation Topics

​I have read claims by amateur artists that because acrylic paints are "plastic" they will last forever and never crack or delaminate. I quite enjoy painting with acrylics and am curious what we actually know from experience or research, or can infer about the longevity of acrylic paintings. There are so many ways to use this versatile medium that I also wonder whether how you use it affects its archival properties. Thanks for your thoughts.

modern alternative to collagen for a flexible gesso?

Question asked 2020-06-19 16:28:48 ... Most recent comment 2020-06-21 20:44:47
Grounds / Priming Animal Glue

​Hello!

I am happy to have found this science-oriented forum (through koo schadler's site), and I have a few questions to ask.

I did silverpoint some years ago on traditional gesso (rabbit skin glue and whiting).  I am getting ready to do it again.

I observed then, that while traditional gesso is pretty hard, it is brittle and requires that rigid support.  I just asked natural pigments how "silverpoint on prepared paper" cited in museums catalogues of renaissance silverpoint drawings even worked, without flaking off the page.

Natural pigments replied that paper usually meant vellum, which was a little stiffer than what I was thinking of.  They also replied that these drawings were mounted and preserved from a very early year, and not subject to that much bending and flexing.

Anyway,
it's 2020.  I'm wondering if there are flexible, and archival, substitutes, that would make a more flexible gesso less likely to crack?


I am also already looking into alternatives to whiting, which is only a 3-4 on the mohs scale, and just barely hard enough to scratch annealed silver.  I'm thinking, 1200 grit aluminum oxide polishing rouge, 1200 grit silicon carbide (for goldpoint-- it's grey), or 400 mesh silica flour, all of which are much harder than ground whiting.  I don't see any reason they won't work! (but if there is a reason please tell me :) )  One is budget, but I live in hawaii now so the price difference between whiting and alumina is much diminished after shipping.  I miss just walking to a pottery store and paying $15 for a big bag of whiting...
Except crystal structure IF I was planning to use gold leaf, then you need a planar silicate that will lie flat so it is burnishable.  but that's what bole is for.  

commercial alkyd primers?

Question asked 2020-06-19 16:38:55 ... Most recent comment 2020-06-19 17:17:40
Alkyd

In preparing my own canvases, is there a commercial alkyd primer you would recommend?  (e.g., home depot, sherwin williams).

To add to the confusion, some commercial alkyd paints have added polyurethane, or even added silicone (considered the more premium choice).  Unsure how those would affect linseed and safflower oil layers of traditional paint on top.


Oil paint on "semi-primed" cotton/linen

Question asked 2020-06-19 10:01:06 ... Most recent comment 2020-06-19 16:15:24
Oil Paint Sizes and Adhesives

​Francis Bacon painted on the back of a primed surface. Are there any concerns with this approach given that one side is properly primed PVA,oil ground etc.

Many thanks

Pen for signing oil paintings?

Question asked 2020-06-16 15:10:24 ... Most recent comment 2020-06-19 00:12:07
Oil Paint Varnishes

​A woman I know wants to sign her oil painting using a pen/marker that is compatible. Obviously, acrylic-based markers would be bad! (Acrylic doesn't adhere well to oil paint film.) I’m wondering though, about enamel-based pens. Or Pebeo has an oil pen that uses a synthetic mineral oil as the base.

Byeond simple good adhesion, the other concern is the pen/marker holding up to varnishing and later removal of said varnish.

hardware store linseed oil

Question asked 2020-06-03 18:22:50 ... Most recent comment 2020-06-16 17:31:25
Drying Oils

​One of my students informed me that he is painting using boiled linseed oil from the hardware store. I advised against it. Did I give him the right advice and what is the problem if any with using generic non artist grade linseed oil to paint with?

Silverfish eating my egg tempera painting

Question asked 2020-06-14 15:46:22 ... Most recent comment 2020-06-15 23:35:25
Egg Tempera

​anyone experiencing e with silverfish eating tempera paint from the painting?

Thanks

Reducing Zinc in Whites by Mixing Different Types

Question asked 2020-06-07 10:10:11 ... Most recent comment 2020-06-10 02:20:20
Oil Paint

I am aware that it is possible that Zinc Oxide can cause delamination and cracking in oil paint layers.  Unless there is some new information I missed, apparently there is no known safe amount of Zinc Oxide in the paint that will stop this for sure. I have read that less Zinc content is logically better if you do want to continue to use Zinc Oxide containing oil paint. I would appreciate hearing the latest from any of the moderators here who might want to comment on the following. 

I have a large volume of Titanium White oil paint that has a Zinc Oxide content of 15% or less. I am not really wanting to throw it all away. I have decided to use that what only on rigid supports, but would also like to reduce the ratio of Zinc Oxide in it, if I can. Would it be worthwhile to mix existing Titanium / Zinc whites that have higher ratios of Zinc Oxide in them such as a known 15% maximum with Zinc free white paints and are there any lead free pigments such as PW5 / Lithopone or PW21 / Barium Sulfate that might be more apt to help reduce delamination and / or cracking? 

On the same topic of the possible problems with Zinc, would it be advisable to avoid using acrylic underpainting layers when using Zinc containing oil whites? How about using oil grounds vs acrylic dispersion grounds with the same whites? And lastly, does the thickness of the layer containing the Zinc Oxide have any impact on the potential for cracking or delamination?

Thanks in advance for your input.

What wood is suitable for painting?

Question asked 2020-06-08 15:11:13 ... Most recent comment 2020-06-09 10:19:27
Rigid Supports

​Hello Mitra,

I know the old masters used  solid poplar and oak wood panels that were dried heavily in order to avoid warping and having the acids rise to the surface.  Obviously they also sealed them in order to have extra layers of protection.

Now a days with ovens that dry the wood, and things like plywood and mdf like  wood,  im curious to know if we have to worry about the acids rising to the surface and about the warping? Technically plywood warps less and mdf if sealed doesnt absorb moisture and shouldnt warp.  I dont know about the acids in the mdf and if they are problem.

Are plywood and mdf panels suitable for painting? Should artists just stick to solid wood? Are MDF boards and plywoods even archival? 


 


Synthetic Papers for Painting Substrates

Question asked 2020-05-29 15:25:31 ... Most recent comment 2020-06-03 17:27:22
Flexible Supports Grounds / Priming Oil Paint Matting, Framing, and Glazing Rigid Supports Sizes and Adhesives

Hi all,

My surface of choice is an ACM panel (lightly sanded and with an acrylic clear gesso applied). However they can be a bit expensive for more experimental or practice works. Or when a painting goes wrong!

So I have been looking into synthetic papers and after looking at a selection of samples I tried a small sheet of PICOFILM from SIHL. It worked so well I ordered some larger sheets to do a painting on, which came out really well. It's basically white PET-G with a very matt primer which gives the the very slightly coarse feel of paper.

Here are the details of the surface from their technical sheets:

https://www.sihl.com/en/products/picofilm-p-125-m2/7831_picofilm-p-125-m2_picofilm.pdf


PICOFILM P-125 M2 matt

Synthetic matt paper. Ideal for waterproof and tear-resistant loop-locks, hang tags, weatherproof hiking maps, race numbers, menus, hard-wearing handbooks, booklets and brochures. 

PICOFILM P-125 M2 is a white polyester film coated both sides with a matt primer. It is weather-resistant, chemical-resistant, temperature-resistant and dimensionally stable. It can be cut, punched, perforated and drilled without issue. It’s also suitable for hot foil stamping and laser cutting. 

The high-quality coated film surfaces offer optimized feed properties and printing results. The slightly coarse surface, which is specially developed for laser printing, has an anti-static effect and prevents double-feeding. Suitable for monochrome and fullcolour laser printing, and for UV flexo and conventional offset pre-printing with oxidative drying inks. With fast ink drying, ideal ink adhesion and toner fusing. Can be stamped easily and lettered manually. 

Advantages
Waterproof
High tear resistance
Weather-resistant
Chemical-resistant
Temperature-resistant
Excellent ink adhesion and toner fusing

The surface is very matt, even more than a white polyester coil coated matt ACM panel. It has a slightly rough feeling like paper or ultra fine sandpaper. The primer can be easily scratched off with a fingernail, but otherwise is a perfectly level and even surface (more than can be achieved using acrylic paint)

I applied two coats of clear gesso and it didn't buckle or warp as even heavyweight paper does. When I tested water paints and oil paints on an untreated surface I saw some absorbtion but absolutely no warping or cockling.

The oil paints developed the familiar oil ring of an absorbent surface after some hours and the paints did dry quicker (but still took several days or longer to dry).

Adhering the paper to a board is a bit tricky because both the surfaces of paper and ACM panel are plastic I've found Golden Acrylic Gel and PVA glue do not seem to dry (even though there seems a bond). They still appear wet when pulled apart after several days.

I'm currently testing out some Pressure Sensitive Adhesives (spray, tape and pot based) but I am seeing some distortion of the thin paper (bubbling underneath) from the glues - possibly from the solvents, so going to try leaving them to dry more thoroughly before bonding. There are also thicker grades of PICOFILM available, but don't know how much that would help.

I tested out sticking the PICOFILM paper to a paper mountboard from Daler Rowney with PVA glue and the bond was so strong then when I tried to remove the PICOFILM it was pulling off layers of the mountboard until the PICOFILM inself ripped when I used great force.

So, my concerns are:

If the primer is mechanically stable enough to be used with oil paints without some additional gesso or primer.

Is the primer going to react negatively with the oil paint.

Can I adhere it to a rigid surface without visible bubbles from the glue appearing and getting it to form a suitable bond.

I like the surface and it works out very cheap compared to thick normal papers (which still need stretching), or canvas/linen.

I have been in touch with SIHL who produce the paper and they've not heard of anyone using it with oil paints before. They are keen to know my experiences with using it and have sent me more samples.

I wondered if you had any thoughts, or any experience with artwork on these new synthetic substrates?

Thank you for your help,
Richard

Nontraditional use of egg tempura

Question asked 2020-04-03 12:26:51 ... Most recent comment 2020-05-18 01:07:43
Egg Tempera

​I have a few questions. I'm a painter/printmaker and have enjoyed making very juicy, loose oil paintings and monotypes for a long time. I've always been captivated by the color quality of egg tempura. I bought a set of Sennelier egg tempura tubes and egg tempura medium. I'm thoroughly enjoying painting loose and relatively thick layers, which I realize is totally nontraditional for this medium. Do you have any advice how to best protect my finished pieces? What are the disadvanages to painting thick layers instead of multiple thin layers? What are the disadvantages of not applying any protective layer over the egg tempura paint? Basically I just want to keep experimenting in my own juciy, expressive way and be able to protect the paintings.

Methylcellulose/oil emulsion paint

Question asked 2020-05-10 08:49:02 ... Most recent comment 2020-05-10 13:45:55
Oil Paint Industrial and Non-Traditional Products

I've come across recipes that claim methylcellulose gel (made from powdered MC mixed with water and allowed to gel) can be used as an emulsifier, much like egg yolk, and added to oil paints to make them faster-drying and (up to a point) water-miscible. Is this as archivally-sound as using egg yolk? Are there any special precautions that need to be taken?​

Titanium dioxide permanence.

Question asked 2020-05-04 02:27:28 ... Most recent comment 2020-05-08 22:38:17
Pigments Oil Paint Art Conservation Topics

​Considering that titanium (oil paint) forms a weaker film than lead, and it's been in use for around 100 years, is anyone aware of any conservation issues arising from its use yet?

Also, I'm interested in mitigating the weakness of titanium with the addition of lead. Does anyone know if there have been any stress tests done with different proportions of lead mixed with titaniun?

Ron Francis

Acrylic Primer with Sand OK under oil paint?

Question asked 2020-05-01 04:18:49 ... Most recent comment 2020-05-01 19:43:03

​Dear MITRA people

I have some acrylic primed artist grade polyester canvas that I find objectionable to use because it has very little texture or tooth (unlike another brand I tried that was lovely to use). The surface is rather slick. I have tried experimenting with home made grounds made of acrylic primer plus marble dust or calcite as well as acrylic primer with pumice but the first 2 gave too little tooth and the last one (because we can't get ultra fine pumice in Australia) was far too coarse. I recently found some Liquitex brand "Natural Sand" acrylic gel, and put a thin coat of it over the original priming on the polyester canvas. It definitely gave a good degree of tooth. Is it relatively sound to paint over this in oils? I will be adhering the canvas to a board first as I always prefer a rigid support. 

Egg Tempera Cracking/Crazing

Question asked 2020-04-28 17:41:55 ... Most recent comment 2020-04-30 18:37:45
Egg Tempera

Background: I have a panel with many layers of egg tempera on it, and I put a "nourishing coat" over some areas. After it dried the surface developed a large number of tiny pits and cracks. My emulsion, which I used for the nourishing coat, is 1:1 egg yolk and white wine. The nourishing coat was ​straight emulsion, and I should have diluted it with more wine (1:2 egg yolk to wine). I assume that the yolk created too much surface tension and pulled at the paint layers, creating the pits and cracks.

Question: is there any way that I can fix this problem? I am many months into this painting and it would be devastating to lose it at this point.

My Current Actions: I tried painting a diluted nourishing coat over the affected areas to no avail. I then tried brushing straight wine over the affected areas, many, many layers, which seemed to work. I assume because I was breaking some of the surface tension of the rich emulsion (1:1 wine to yolk). Most of the pits and cracks closed up, but then I let it dry completely and they opened slightly again. The end result is better than what it was, but it still isn't where I want it to be.

Thanks!

Mixing a Drying Oil with an Alkyd Medium

Question asked 2020-03-30 09:54:04 ... Most recent comment 2020-04-17 20:57:01
Alkyd Drying Oils Oil Paint Paint Additives Paint Mediums

I have seen where some manufacturers do give the OK to mixing OMS with their Alkyd Mediums. What if one wished to add a Drying Oil such as Linseed or Walnut oil mixed with an Alkyd Medium to moderate the drying time? Of course, being sure to follow Fat over Lean rules by adding the same amount or slightly more drying oil in the mixture to each subsequent layer.

  • If it is OK to do so, is there a safe maximum amount of drying oil that could be added to most alkyd mediums?
  • For the moderators who also work for a specific brand of art materials, what would be a safe amount of drying oil to add to your various Alkyd mediums?
  • Would it be best to stick to a specific ratio mixture of the drying oil with a chosen Alkyd medium to be used throughout the painting, or should slightly more oil be added to the mixture for each new layer, not exceeding any recommended maximum drying oil to Alkyd ratio?
  • If the answer is no to mixing drying oils with Alkyd mediums, what is the reason for not doing so?

I am looking for a general guideline if that is possible to give a maximum ratio of oil to Alkyd medium that would generally be safe to use with most Alkyd mediums, even if it was a very low percentage. It doesn't take much Walnut oil for example to slow the drying rate quite a bit with some paints. I realize that all Alkyd mediums are not the same and that some makers might recommend not adding any drying oil to their Alkyd mediums, so it should not be done with those products. Additionally, a maximum recommended amount of medium for one brand may not work for another brand that doesn't give any ratio recommendations, which means an all-inclusive answer may be impossible to provide, but I was very interested in seeing what you folks had to say about this. 

Linen to panel adhesive

Question asked 2020-03-30 14:05:38 ... Most recent comment 2020-03-30 20:33:37
Oil Paint
A collector sent me a photo of a painting he purchased from me that had huge ripples and sagging. It was a commercial linen canvas on stretcher bars. I will fix it for him and intend to glue it on a hard panel; what is the best adhesive to use to adhere to a composite material panel?

How to make oil paint very matte

Question asked 2020-03-22 00:41:05 ... Most recent comment 2020-03-26 20:14:53
Oil Paint

​Greetings,

I'd like to have passages in an oil painting that resemble poster paints in their very matte sheen. 

Can you recommend some ways to make oil paint extra matte? 

I've had a little luck with additional OMS/ Turps, absorbing oil from cardboard, and the additon of cold wax, but wondered if there were other/ strong 'matting agents' for oil paint. I think Gamblin makes a Matte Oil paint (how?) I have yet to find in stores...


Thanks,

T

Source for lead primer

Question asked 2020-03-11 05:16:02 ... Most recent comment 2020-03-21 22:14:11
Grounds / Priming

​Can anyone tell me a source for lead primer made without marble dust?

resuming work on older oil paintings

Question asked 2020-03-11 01:57:35 ... Most recent comment 2020-03-17 20:16:10
Oil Paint

​Dear MITRA,

I have searched the MITRA forum and resources, and while I have read similar questions to mine, I am not locating an answer to my exact inquiry.

I am about to resume work on a large format oil on linen diptych after I had to set them aside for a few years. I recently received funding to complete the full project for an upcoming solo exhibition, so I look forward to completing these initial works. I want to use the soundest methods possible to finish these canvases, and would like to know if my approach sounds like the best route to take.

I am using oil paints made with walnut oil, and initially used a solvent-based alkyd medium cut 50/50 with OMS for my underpainting, then a walnut/alkyd medium with increasingly less OMS for subsequent fatter layers. I never adulterate more than 20% as I alter the fat-to-lean ratio. On large parts of each canvas, the underpainting and canvas tooth are still visible, while other areas are comprised of a second or third layer as I had developed them to near completion.

Here is my suggested approach to complete the works, along with my questions about each potential step:

1. Cleaning – I plan to give both of the canvases a gentle rub with OMS to get rid of any potential dirt or fingerprints, etc, before resuming painting.

2. Sanding? –

(a) do I need to gently abrade the areas where I got as far as a second or third layer to break the seal of the paint and insure best adhesion? Or only sand where any fatter third layers look glossy? I presume that I wouldn't need to sand the underpainting areas that still feature good canvas tooth.

(b) If sanding is recommended, since I don't want to alter my composition (so pentimenti isn't a concern), would I only need to break/scuff the surface, rather than sanding down to the underpainting? Would wet sanding with a little OMS or distilled water be advised for safety? (I know to wear an appropriate mask and dispose of the pigment dust responsibly, etc.)

(c) I also wondered if I'd only need to sand where the final highlight and darkest shadow layers are going, but that sounds potentially more complicated or confusing and would limit my method of execution.

3. Limiting layers – for best adhesion, in this case should I limit myself to a certain number of paint layers wherever possible? I typically use an indirect painting method to create a fairly naturalistic end result by employing glazes on top of a wet-in-wet or wet-on-dry base. As I recall, limiting yourself to three layers including the underpainting when possible is a good practice for longevity anyway…? The number of layers I would need to employ would also be affected by how much (if any) sanding you would recommend, because I will essentially have to redo anything I sand.

I welcome your input on the best way to proceed. While I know that resuming work on canvases whose layers are this closed off isn't necessarily the best case scenario, starting over does not appeal to me from the standpoints of both time and expense. I frequently see Old Master examples wherein the artist spent years completing the works or resumed painting after a few years, so I suppose there are worse studio practices. 

Thank you so much for your time and expertise!

Removing mold from pastel sticks

Question asked 2020-03-13 08:29:10 ... Most recent comment 2020-03-14 12:28:08
Pastel

How do I systematically remove/treat mold or mildew on my affected pastel sticks in a relatively safe manner in my studio  (in humid Louisiana and try to prevent its return? 

Mold/mildew on pastel sticks

Question asked 2020-03-11 22:03:19 ... Most recent comment 2020-03-11 23:52:49
Pastel

I recently found numerous white small tuffs of mildew or mold growing on my very dark pastels (dark brown/black/blue), with two pastel companies' brands being most affected. My studio is in the gulf South, an area of high humidity and I run the air conditioner when It is warm and I am at the studio (not all the time). I need to figure out why it seems that only the darks are getting this growth ....is it the possibly the preservative used, why mostly these two companies, why just the darkest darks, and most importantly, how do I systematically tackle the systematic cleaning of the pastels  in a relatively safe manner. I can send images, if that is possible.


number of pigments in an admixture?

Question asked 2020-03-11 03:33:04 ... Most recent comment 2020-03-11 17:19:29
Oil Paint Pigments

​Dear MITRA,

I've always favored a fairly limited oil palette, preferring to create my own admixtures rather than buy every tube of brown, green, or flesh tint. Recently I have expanded my palette to include some natural earth colors as I have begun to focus on using leaner *pigments* under fatter ones in addition to following the fat-over-lean rule regarding the amount of oil medium added.

Is there a limit to how many pigments are a preferable maximum in any given admixture? Does it complicate the chemistry too much to blend several pigments to get just the right color? Is there any rule about mixing natural pigments with synthetic ones?

Many thanks for your help!

Using Pigment Markers on Acrylic Gesso

Question asked 2020-03-11 10:04:42 ... Most recent comment 2020-03-11 16:43:00
Acrylic Art Conservation Topics Grounds / Priming Solvents and Thinners Varnishes

Hi all,

I would like to explore using W&N Pigment Markers which seem to use a good selection of commonly used ATSM I/II pigments but are available in a marker form. I already have a few of their water colour markers which I like, but there are many more colour choices in their Pigment Marker range.

However they are ethanol based and I understand that alcohol/ethanol would act as a solvent on acrylic gesso? I know they can be used on Yupo and other alcohol resistant plastics, but I am looking to add clear Gesso which contains silicia make a more toothy suface. A non-absorbant, more pastel ground like surface.

Considering that with the markers I would be making rubbing motions I'm not sure what I could put over the Gesso to protect it from the alcohol. Are there any varnishes that are not soluable in alcohol but will resist a rubbing motion?

The only thing I could think of was a layer of water based polyurethane (but I am concerned about yellowing).

Any ideas or suggestions?

Thanks,
Richard

Lead primers

Question asked 2020-03-11 05:12:39 ... Most recent comment 2020-03-11 05:07:00
Grounds / Priming

​Can anyone point me to a source for a lead primer made without marble dust (calcium carbonate), either a maker or a seller?

resuming work on older oil paintings

Question asked 2020-03-11 00:53:41 ... Most recent comment 2020-03-11 02:00:40

​Dear MITRA, 

I have looked through other posts and while similar questions have been asked, I do not see my exact question.

I am about to resume work on a large format oil on linen diptych after I had to set the works aside for a few years. I started them in 2013, and last worked on them in 2015. Now I have funding to complete the project for an upcoming solo show, and want to resume work using the soundest methods possible. I don't want to cPlease let me know if 

1. Cleaning -- with OMS then let dry


Glue emulsion

Question asked 2020-02-21 22:01:21 ... Most recent comment 2020-03-10 16:57:51
Egg Tempera Oil Paint

​I am interested in experimenting with glue emulsion and oil paints.  My understanding of what the emulsion paint is capable of doing may not necessarily be in line with what is sound painting practices.

 I have a recipe from Patrick Betadier's technique mixte I will probably follow to make the emulsion.  The ingredients are methil cellulose, linseed and stand oil, turps and dammar varnish and water.

My question is more in terms of using the emulsion within the oil layers and whether that's possible, as the emulsion paint would essentially be neutral in the system of fat/lean.

So the painting would be built following fat over lean in oil, however the emulsion + pigment paint would be introduced and sandwitched between layers of oils.  My interest would be more limited to painting final details, where I would apply a thin colored oil glaze and work into it with the emulsion paint.

I am wondering if glue emulsions are indeed fat/lean neutral and if now, what are their limitations.

Final Varnish on an Encaustic

Question asked 2016-11-10 19:00:28 ... Most recent comment 2020-03-09 13:33:15
Encaustic Varnishes
What archivally sound permanent or removable protective finishes if any have been used/recommended for encaustic works that provide a more durable finish on top of the wax surface to help protect it from pollutants and contact damage? Under the recommendation of Golden products I have been using their removable acrylic varnish for about a year now with excellent results but would like to look at other options.

Micronized Zinc Oxide

Question asked 2020-03-07 10:39:09 ... Most recent comment 2020-03-09 11:21:09
Art Conservation Topics Oil Paint Pigments Scientific Analysis Varnishes

​Hi all,

I've been reading about how micronized (or nano-particle sized) Zinc Oxide is used in Suncream to protect from UV light. As I understand it the very small size particles also make the zinc oxide more transparent.

Would this form of Zinc oxide used in a varnish (perhaps as a matting agent) help with UV protection? Would it break down being metal based?

Also, I wonder if this form of Zinc oxide added to oil paint would help contribute metal ions to the oil firms, but without the brittleness it can cause?

Thanks,
Richard


A bit of rust in a pen for ink

Question asked 2020-02-26 06:29:36 ... Most recent comment 2020-03-05 11:19:35
Ink Pen

​Hello dear people from Mitra.

Recently i began a ink drawing that i am really happy with, but last night i realised that my pen for ink had started to rust a bit...


The reason i didnt realise this before was because the pen was working great, and it was not clearly visible. I realised this when i had put it in destiled water and it was a bit yellowish, then i looked inside the pen and saw a little bits of rust on it...

I really care for my materials and especcialy my art, but i guess that this stuff happens.

THE THING I AM WORRIED ABOUT IS WILL THIS LITTLE BIT OF RUST IN PEN AFFECT THE INK ON MY DRAWING? WILL IT AFFECT THE ARTWORK? 

I hope that artwork will remain as it is, but i wanted to ask to be sure? 


Thank you 

Kind regards


Marko K

Custom Table Pads

Question asked 2020-02-27 03:51:47 ... Most recent comment 2020-02-27 19:44:23
Other Drawing Materials

What kind of tables you are using for drawing, do u have any requirment of of <a href="https://tablepadscustom.com/">table pads</a> ?​

Fixative or varnish for oil & wax based pencils on paper

Question asked 2020-02-07 08:24:30 ... Most recent comment 2020-02-27 19:41:16
Pencil Varnishes

​Hi! I'm trying to find a suitable fixative to protect my drawings made with oil- and wax-based colour pencil on 300gsm Arches hot pressed watercolour paper. I only need to protect against accidental smudging and UV protection is not my concern (I only use ASTM 6901 grade pencils).

I've tried a Schmincke universal fixative so far (I live in Germany so that was a natural choice) and it gives good smudge protection and almost no colour change. However it lists "polyvinyl resin" as its main binder which is ambiguous, and Schmincke have officially declined to disclose any further details on the type of resin they use. From what the industry uses, I assume it must be polyvinyl acetate which is known to slowly disintegrate, releasing acetic acid. Assuming that fixative indeed uses polyvinyl acetate, would you consider it archival enough to be used with paper and colour pencils?

My second question is: what's the best recommended smudge protection fixative/varnish for oil/wax-based coloured pencil works on paper? I did a fair amount of googling but resources related to coloured pencils protection are virtually nonexistent (also no vendor in Europe, to my best knowledge, market any varnishes/fixatives as specifically suitable for coloured pencils).

Thank you very much for any assistance you'd be able to provide with this topic!


Technical queries (isolation varnish + final varnish) in the Mixed Technique (ET + oil)

Question asked 2020-02-21 14:07:42 ... Most recent comment 2020-02-21 17:53:00
Varnishes Egg Tempera

Hello,

thanks a lot for all your comments and suggestions. 

I know that it is not recommended to varnish or coat an egg tempera painting. In my case I use ET for the underpainting because it allows me a very precise drawing and it dries really fast. The problems come when I add oil. The base is so terribly absorbent that I can't manipulate the first oil layer. Soon after I start with oil paint doesn't flow normally, which doesn't allow me to keep going.

I have done many tests and when I isolate ET with Paraloid B72 or an oil medium (1 part stand oil + 2 parts turpentine, for example) the brushability improves considerably. The base is still absorbent, but it allows me to work on it.

Is there a better alternative to an isolating varnish? I am concerned about the preservation of my paintings, but this issue just doesn't let me keep painting.It may be a silly question, but... would it be more reasonable to apply an isolating coat with an emulsion medium? I mean, mixing an oil medium with an ET medium. For example, the medium I am using to grind my ET colours with 1 part stand oil + 1 or 2 parts turpentine. Any other suggestion maybe?

Thanks again.

Max

isolating coat over egg tempera grisaille

Question asked 2020-02-18 15:25:41 ... Most recent comment 2020-02-19 09:00:07
Varnishes Egg Tempera

Hello,

I have serious doubts about what kind of isolating coat would be most appropriate for me.

I'm looking for a varnish to seal egg tempera that is also compatible with a final varnish, which will go over the last layer of oil.

As the isolating coat penetrates over the tempera, it becomes part of it. I would like to know, according to your criteria, which combination of varnishes I could use.

Here is the structure of my paintings:

Egg tempera underpainting in grey values. This layer is extremely matt, due to the fact that I thin the ET with a lot of water. Then I apply combined oil glazes and intensify the lights with white tempera grassa (highlights). Finally I finish the painting with oil paint.

I have tried Paraloid B72 (15%) by Kremer and it is completely transparent. The problem is the brushability. So I only manage to apply it in small areas. It is impossible to give a uniform layer to the whole painting and I prefer not to spray it.

I have tried Gamvar (Gamblin) as well. The brushability is great, kind of gelatinous. But even after drying it is still a bit yellowish or dark. And I am not sure if it is compatible with ET.

One last question. In the following link it says that if adding UV light stabilizers to the varnish it should be added to both layers (isolating coat and final varnish), what do you think?

https://www.naturalpigments.com/artist-materials/selecting-varnishes-for-your-painting/

Thanks a lot in advance and best regards.

Max


Using Gatorfoam board as a rigid support for watercolor paper

Question asked 2020-02-18 13:41:28 ... Most recent comment 2020-02-18 15:29:06
Rigid Supports Watercolor

​I have heard watercolor artists and seen utube videos by watercolor artists promoting adhering watercolor paper to gatorfoam board as a permanent, rigid support.  The watercolor painting is varnished when complete.  

I was looking at using the gatorfoam board in this way for a large (36" x 48") watercolor painting I plan to do.  While the artists mentioned seem to believe the gatorboard is acid free and archival, I'm concerned that it may not be.  It is light weight, strong and very rigid which make it appealing as a support but I'm concerned about the long-term effect on the watercolor paper and painting.  Please give me your opinion.  Thank you!

Low Cholesterol Eggs

Question asked 2020-02-14 14:23:04 ... Most recent comment 2020-02-14 14:17:00
Egg Tempera

I have a student working with "lower cholesterol" eggs, marketed as having "25% less saturated fat", to make egg tempera paint. She's having a hard time geting her tempering correct.  The obvious answer is that there isn't enough egg oil in the yolk for her to make a good paint film - yes?  Any other considerations regarding working with low cholesterol eggs?  Needless to say, I'll encourage her to switch brands.

Koo Schadler

question on spray lacquer

Question asked 2020-02-11 21:31:19 ... Most recent comment 2020-02-13 14:02:43
Industrial and Non-Traditional Products

​I do multi-media work on Ampersand's panels and use multiple coats of Golden's archival spray varnish as a protective coating. Recently, out of curiosity, I lightly sanded Golden's gloss varnish and top coated it with 2 coats of nitrocellulose lacquer. To  my surprize, nothing terrible happened, at least visually at this current moment in time. 

I understand that lacquers are a no-no do to their propensity to crack and amber with time. But, could they be used on top of an archival varnish solely for the purpose of aesthetic reasons? I have always been told that brittle products can't be used on softer ones, but I have been asking myself: so what if the nitrocellulose lacquer cracks and slightly ambers in 100 years? (A person I spoke to from a lacquer manufacturer told me that today's Nitrocellulose lacquers are not the same as the ones first developed), that they take a much longer time to crack and significantly yellow).  As long as Golden's archival varnish is the actual protective layer (used as the permanent layer), couldn't two thin coats of spray lacquer be removed by physically sanding it off? And since lacquers re-wet themselves, couldn't the picture just be recoated with new lacquer, or a new invention(hopefully after a 100 years) that isn't so plastic looking?

Grateful for any thoughts,

Kim

Oil Painting on unprepared hardboard (Masonite)

Question asked 2020-02-07 15:28:17 ... Most recent comment 2020-02-07 15:54:04
Oil Paint

​A customer of mine—I run an art store—came in saying he painted an oil painting 20 years ago "on Masonite" with no surface preparation. He says it looks the same, but is wondering if he can do anything to help its longevity. (Aside from cleaning and varnishing.) Any advice since the substrate was not sealed? What is he up against?

Painting on wood

Question asked 2020-02-06 10:57:55 ... Most recent comment 2020-02-06 15:54:19
Acrylic Grounds / Priming Oil Paint Rigid Supports Sizes and Adhesives Watercolor

​1. When painting with acrylic followed by oils on wood panel 

(specifically birch veneer) is it best to seal the wood first with acrylic primer such as kilz followed by gesso?

2. When stretching canvas over wood panel is it best to prime the wood panel first, then stretch followed by gesso?

3. If glueing canvas to panel, prime first? What glue is best to adhere canvas to panel? 

Painting on wood

Question asked 2020-02-06 10:50:39 ... Most recent comment 2020-02-06 10:41:00
Acrylic Drying Oils Gouache Flexible Supports Grounds / Priming

I have always painted with acrylic, often followed by oil on canvas. 

Am exploring painting on wood panels, specifically birch veneer.

Questions: 

1. Should I seal the wood first with primer (kilz) followed by 

gesso?

2. If I glue canvas to wood panel before painting what glue is

best and do I still prime the wood first followed by gesso on canvas?

3. What substance do you recommend for gluing paper onto

wood panel? 

Thank you so much for your help!

Fixitive before Egg Tempera?

Question asked 2020-01-30 11:53:47 ... Most recent comment 2020-01-31 09:19:03
Egg Tempera

​I am very new to egg tempera painting. I have completed a drawing in pencil on a gesso panel. I am wondering a couple things:

1. Is it necessary to india ink over the pencil?

2. If I dont do an india ink underdrawing on top of the pencil, will the pencil mix with the egg tempera paint and make it muddy?

3. If I spray a fixitive (like a krylon drawing fixative) over the drawing will it negatively affect the tempera? 

4. Has anyone found that using india ink over pencil helps to seal the pencil and prevent it from mixing with the tempera?

Substrate for marbling and oil

Question asked 2020-01-14 22:34:27 ... Most recent comment 2020-01-31 07:48:35
Grounds / Priming Gouache

​hi there, I'm trying to make large 6 x 8ft marbleized surfaces that I will then paint with oil on top. I'm having trouble finding canvas that is white enough and unprimed at that scale. My options as I understand them are,:

Apply alum to paper, marble the paper, adhere to canvas, apply matte medium , paint oil on top

Apply alum to 100% cotton bed sheet, marbleizing,  stretch on its own or over canvas, apply matte medium, oil paint on top

Or apply golden absorbent ground to primed surface, apply alum,  marbleize, apply matte medium, oil paint over

Or? Any other ideas? Will alum have any negative effects? Can paper be adhered to canvas and then painted over? Bed sheets with high thread count? What are the most durable options here? Thanks!!! 

Black oil - is it beneficial?

Question asked 2020-01-15 16:52:10 ... Most recent comment 2020-01-28 16:56:38
Oil Paint Drying Oils

​Greetings

I'd like to ask about black oil (leaded oil). I found somewhat contradicting informations about it.

Natural Pigments sells "Dark drying oil (Black oil)" and the description says:

Dark Drying Oil or black oil is a fast drying oil made by heating linseed oil with lead oxide (litharge) and used in historical oil painting. The lead (metal basis) content of our dark drying oil is about 3% by weight.

Use

Black oil can improve the handling and drying of oils and can be used in recipes to make megilp, Maroger and Roberson's mediums and traditional oil varnishes, such as copal.

I'm not interested in Maroger and Roberson mediums, or traditional oil varnishes, but the statement "Black oil can improve the handling and drying of oils" sounds intereseting to me. As far as I know certain lead compounds speed up drying of the paint film and/or increase its flexibility and durability. Thus, it would seem to be useful medium.

However in MITRA pdf article "Myths, FAQs, and Common Misconceptions", there is this statement in the last chapter about Maroger mediums on page no. 11: "Dr. MarionMecklenberg of the Smithsonian Institute’s Museum Conservation Institute,however, has shown that paint films containing even small amounts of leaded oilare substantially weaker than those containing only cold pressed linseed oil."

Of course I realize that the actual amount of black oil in medium/binder can have varying effect. But generally - how is it with black oil? Can it provide any advantages, e.g. better balanced through drying of paint film and increased durability, or not?

"Beading up" or reticulation of oil paint

Question asked 2020-01-24 10:19:42 ... Most recent comment 2020-01-24 19:38:24
Grounds / Priming Oil Paint Other

​Hello Everyone,

Im currenty grinding my own colors and starting to paint with them. But im running across a problem and thats the beading up of certain colors.  

After trying to find answers online , it seems that this occurs because  my surface has a  lower surface energy than the paint.  If this is correct it seems that I have two options, I either have to change the surface or change the paint.  

Would spraying alcohol on my surface work? Or thinly oiling out and letting it dry? What can I put on the surface that would make the paint stick better?  Can I add something to my paint?  

P.s. I cant sand the surface since i did an underpainting and i dont want to damage it. 

Best Regards,

Hector

Support for Large Scale Egg Tempera Painting

Question asked 2020-01-16 12:15:18 ... Most recent comment 2020-01-22 11:19:35
Rigid Supports

​Hello!

I reviewed prior questions and comments in the "rigid support" forum before posing my question. I've been using 1/8" hardboard, cradled approximately every 12" with kiln-dried douglas fir 1" x 2" stripping. This seems to work fine. I do apply 8 coats of traditional gesso front and back, finishing with one coat of alkyd paint on rear per Koo Schadler's instructions.

My main issue is weight. On a 4' x 8' panel this becomes very heavy. I need the help of a friend to move it at all.

Is there a lighter weight material that I could safely try? I wrote to Simon Liu but he says his panels are not safe for traditional gesso.

What about coroplast, or an archival foamcore type material?  I could still cradle it with wooden strips for rigidity and would be willing to glue a muslim layer on. Any ideas for lighter weight materials?

An advantage of my system is, of course, that it is dirt cheap but i would be willing to pay quite a bit more for a lighter weight solution.

Two other issues:

1. It is almost gospel that we are to use untempered (standard) hardboard, but I've heard from manufacturers that the amount of oil or resin in modern hardboard is miniscule and actually adds to the integrity of the board, as untempered does tend to chip more at the edges. Perhaps at this point it is just myth that the oil will migrate through to the gesso and affect the painting? For a long time I could not source untempered hardboard in California except by ordering 100 sheets shipped by freight. But now I can buy it locally but I'm wondering if tempered may actually be better?

2. The logic behind applying equal number of coats of gesso, front and back is to equalize the forces in order to prevent warpage. However, the hardboard that is available to me has a "screen back" so it absorbs more gesso. Plus the rear has cradling which also affects the amount of gesso, so is perhaps appling equal coats no longer necessary or, in fact, should I be quantifying the amount of gesso applied either by weight or volume to ensure that the amount is equal on front and rear?

That's it! Thanks so much. It is comfortaing and amazing to have this in-depth MITRA forum available to us artists.

Lora Arbrador

Loom sized linen

Question asked 2020-01-20 00:38:27 ... Most recent comment 2020-01-20 15:41:26

What is the standard size used in​ Unprimed linen and is it advisable to remove it with gentle washing before users sizing and priming?

Mark.

Soy oil for printing

Question asked 2020-01-08 11:20:39 ... Most recent comment 2020-01-17 17:45:49
Drying Oils

​Hi, my collegue from the Printing Departement on my academy, recently switched to soy-based printing inks. These are made watersoluble, so we need no mineral spirits for cleaning anymore.
His complaint, however, is that the inks dry very slowly, as in at least a week, or so. This does not work, at an art academy. So he asked me for advice, but I do not know of soy oil being used as oil for paints or inks. Is it even a drying oil?

Does anyone here know what to do? Is there a way to let these inks dry faster (cobalt dryer?) Or is it 'dead on arrival' and should we use a different inkt?

I hope you can help us with this, thanks in advance.

How to store egg tempera paintings

Question asked 2019-12-12 23:56:18 ... Most recent comment 2020-01-15 12:13:14
Egg Tempera

Hello,

I'm aware that the optimal way to store an egg tempera (or any painting) is to place it upright in a rack. None of the paint-bearing areas of the painting should be touching the slats of the rack. Two questions:

1. I would feel more comfortable covering it with some loose plastic or something in case of leaks. I understand that as long as the painitng is upright water will bead off of it. But still I would feel better if there was some sort of barrier.

2. Living in an apartment and not having a rack for paintings, plus some of my ET's are as big as 4' x *8 I'm trying to figure out how to safely store them. I used to wrap them in cloths such as sheeting and then wrap with plastic. I would like to be able to store them flat. 

Any ideas?

Thanks much, Lora Arbrador

Gamsol v/s Turpentine: Safety + Surface Quality

Question asked 2020-01-06 22:56:08 ... Most recent comment 2020-01-14 09:41:42

I was recently discussing ways to mitigate surface irregularities during the painting process, as opposed to varnishing, with a specialty paint merchant. They recommended reducing the amount solvent in my medium and using a less bodied oil like walnut for flow, which seems like good advice. However, they also recommended switching from Gamsol to double rectified Pine Turpentine, which I have questions about.

I currently use a 50/50 mix of Gamol and Linseed oil and my paintings aren't too many layers.

I know Turpentine and Gamsol have a different feel under the brush, but would turpentine actually help to create a more mat, uniform surface? 

The merchant disagreed with me about Gamol being a less toxic solvent, which I've always been told. If I'm understanding the MITRA Resources pdf on solvents (word in parenthesis my own)- "Aromatic hydrocarbons (like turpentine) tend to evaporate more slowly and are more toxic than aliphatic hydrocarbons (like Gamsol)". Can you confirm that Gamsol is indeed safer?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts!

Diluting retouch varnish

Question asked 2019-11-25 17:42:53 ... Most recent comment 2020-01-11 22:50:11
Varnishes

​Hello,

Can retouch varnish be diluted to make it less shiny, and if so, with what?

Thank you!

Beading of oil or varnish on a dried oil paint surface

Question asked 2020-01-06 18:38:12 ... Most recent comment 2020-01-07 17:34:24
Varnishes Oil Paint

 when trying to oil out dull areas, glaze or put a varnish over my paintings in some areas the medium, varnish or thinned paint just beads up. It is difficult to cover with anything except straight paint. I use Williamsburg and Winsdor and Newton paints lightly thinned with linseed oil on a lead grounded high quality linen canvas. I've been told to use toluene in the varnish or medium. 

Cooking oil as a medium

Question asked 2019-06-21 08:50:41 ... Most recent comment 2020-01-06 18:40:45
Oil Paint Paint Mediums

​On various art forums people often ask about using grocery store cooking/salad oils, such as walnut oil, as a painting medium. They are usually trying to save a bit of money. It seems like a false economy that could likely cause probelms down the road and negate hours of work put into the paitning process just to save a few dollars on materials.  I'm aware that there is an obvious problem with some grocery store oils containing added anti-oxidents to maintain freshness.  Are there other issues, related to the differences in how edible oils are processed as opposed artist grade oils, that can cause problems in the quaity of paint film formed?

Mold

Question asked 2020-01-06 11:00:15 ... Most recent comment 2020-01-06 18:22:26
Egg Tempera Environment

Hi MITRA,

I've had several people ask me about mold issues on egg tempera paintings.  I understand that the porous, high PVC surface of an unvarnished tempera is more prone to mold (since moisture more readily enters in).  My questions are:

- How detrimental is mold on top of a paint surfaces (both on other mediums generally, and egg tempera specifically)?  

- Aside from taking the work to a professional conservator to clean, what can a person do?  I've known people to wipe the surface with alcohol, which seems to work well in removing the mold; however I'm concerned it may compromise the paint film if applied to liberally (abrade with applicaiton, or sink in and lead to embrittlement).  What about using Phenol?

- A person recently wrote me with this question and wondered how consequential mold was for past painters, given that they did not have climate controlled spaces.  Do you know if mold was  historically a big problem? 

Koo Schadler

Gesso Ratios

Question asked 2019-12-27 09:21:36 ... Most recent comment 2019-12-28 13:03:39
Grounds / Priming

Hello All,

In making gesso, my experience is to first establish a ratio of glue to water, my preference being 1 pt. glue to 16 pts. water (1:16).  While I've always believed there is some variability in that ratio (my guesstimate, from 1:12 to 1:20), a past MITRA question clarified that, given the complexity of glue, the variability can be greater than that (i.e. one paint company recommends a 1:5 ratio) - it all depends on glue factors. 

Anyhow, the second relevant gesso ratio is glue water to chalk or gypsum (whiting).  The most common ratio I see (and use) is 1 pt. Glue Water: 1.5 pts. Whiting.  This generally yields a gesso with the consistency of light cream or whole milk, ideal for applying gesso.  Too thick a gesso is more apt to crack.  

The Mt. Athos monk with whom I've conversed in the past is asking another question, relative to the above.  His gesso recipe, like mine (1 glue: 16 water + 1 glue water: 1.5 whiting) is yielding a gesso with a heavy cream or pudding consistency.  He is asking which is more relevant: staying with consistent ratios (even if it yields a thick gesso), or shooting for a gesso consistency of light cream (even if that means adding less whiting).  My gesso never yields a pudding-like gesso, so I'm puzzled why he's getting that.  Regardless, I would say consistency is more important - applying pudding-like gesso is not good.  But then again, gesso is essentially a high PVC paint, and if one too dramatically alters a paint's PVC, isn't that problematic?

I realize all this is complicated by variabilities in ingredients and measuring, environmental factors, etc.; and there is not a simple answer.  Nonetheless, I welcome general thoughts on the above, as well as a response to the specific question of which is more important: staying with consistent gesso ratios, or adjusting a ratio (perhaps dramatically) to yield a thinner gesso consistency.  

Thanks, 

Koo Schadler

How to label the back side of an oil painting on canvas

Question asked 2019-12-11 23:35:33 ... Most recent comment 2019-12-16 00:40:31
Matting, Framing, and Glazing Oil Paint Flexible Supports

​Forgive me if this is answered elsewhere, but I'm looking for the best practices on labeling the back side of a painting on canvas on strainers. I'd like to include a professional description of the date, materials, and name/authentication of the work, etc. I've mostly only seen artists doing this in the past on panel by attaching a label, as in J. ALbers, but have heard adhering anything to the back of the piece will eventually disrupt the front tension- similar concerns about writing directly on the piece, and furthermore only labeling the stretchers seems to miss the mark. Perhaps on a dust cover, but this seems impractical on a larger piece... Any industry standards?

Many thanks,

T

Tempera grassa ground

Question asked 2019-11-03 17:58:26 ... Most recent comment 2019-12-10 11:09:23
Egg Tempera Grounds / Priming Oil Paint

​Dear MITRA administrator,

Which ground would you suggest for painting with egg-oil emulsion (tempera grassa)?

Ground should go on rigid support like wood panel. Emulsion ingradients are: linseed oil, egg and water in different ratios, nothing else.

Damir Pusic.

Watercolor surface identification

Question asked 2019-12-02 12:17:37 ... Most recent comment 2019-12-02 15:14:31
Watercolor

I have a watercolor piece by Albert Herter that I estimate to be from between 1894-1900 by the name of "Gift of Roses". I've been working on identifying it the past few days and have a few questions about watercolor surfaces from that period. When we looked at the back of the piece, I was suprised to see that it was on a kind of pressed board, and not paper as I thought. I did not remove it entirely from the frame to avoid damage, so it may be mounted, but the edges seem to be consistent, no paper glued, just painted directly onto this board.  I have pictures of the front and back for anyone that wants a look here https://imgur.com/gallery/RYdi1NK

I'm a painter myself and am pretty certain it's not a print or crayon enlargement, but the surface has me questioning that.  Any help would be greatly appreciated. 

rheology of painting for glazing

Question asked 2019-11-30 20:46:58 ... Most recent comment 2019-12-02 12:40:11
Oil Paint

​Hello Mitra,

I always see people watering down there paints when they are going to make a glaze.  Many books talk about avoiding this bc if one goes extremely past the CPVC this will create an unstable film.  Is there a way to guage the making of paint for a glazing technique?  Is there some sort of general rule or rule of thumb that one should take into account when mixing paint for a glazing technique? 


Best Regards,

Hector 



Repairing cracked masonite panel

Question asked 2019-11-27 21:52:02 ... Most recent comment 2019-11-30 13:12:39
Handling and Transportation

​A fellow artist and I collaborated on a piece together, in both acrylic and oil paint on a 36"x48" cradled Gessobord. I applied ArtResin to the piece which was curing perfectly in the storage area on the third floor of an art gallery. I went up to the painting on the third day and found a couple of deep cracks had appeared in the glossy ArtResin. Upon closer inspection I realized the cracks in the resin were a symptom of cracks in the masonite panel. Since it was in perfect condition two days prior, and it wasn't subject to wild fluctuations in temperature, I assume it fell and someone righted it, not realizing it has suffered. 

Now the other artist has been invited to ArtBasel and wants to take this piece. My question is; how can I repair the masonite so the end result is strong and also looks good enough should the piece sell?

I think I have figured out how to repair the resin by sanding it down and reapplying it, but any suggestions for that part are also appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

Studio safety of W & N Artisan thinner

Question asked 2019-11-25 17:41:40 ... Most recent comment 2019-11-28 14:46:31
Solvents and Thinners

​Hi,

recently read an article on this forum re water-miscible oils (2019-11-16) . This has rekindled my interest in using them again. I first started using W & N Artisan oils over 10 years ago, and off-and-on since. Problem is that if you use water as a thinner it evaporates almost instantaneously leaving a very short open-time. This was a big turn-off for me.

I have got their associated thinner (Artisan THINNER) which stays open for at least an hour and great stuff for altering an initial drawing/lay-in. (I only use it for the initial drawing). On specific questioning W & N advise to use a maximum dilution of 1:2 by volume ( 1x part oils : 2 x parts thinner). I usually use a bit less thinner than this. They stated that it was non-toxic also. (I realize that there can be a problem with this description in some cases) 

At the above ratio it does all the things I used to use turps for and, hopefully, a lot less toxic. Which is what I really want to know, ie., just how safe is this thinner?

I checked the MSDS for the product which states that: " This product has been certified by ACMI to carry the AP (Approved Product) seal, meaning this product bears no chronic or acute human health hazards". The Artisan literature also states exact same reference.

Specifically, under the heading 'Inhalation' it states no specific symptoms known. Also, not classified as a specific target organ toxicant after repeated exposure. Skin contact also had "No specific symptoms known".

The only caution was that it could cause irritation to eyes and mucous membranes; also that thermal decomposition.......may include harmful gases or vapors. However, is stable under normal ambient condions.

Initial boiling point >100 deg.C at 760mmHg.

In my home studio I have a portable fan that I could place in the windows, but the noise is irritating.  I also have open windows. However, in the colder weather I can only have them slightly open (there is a small cross-flow thru these windows from facing rooms) because my hands have an extreme reaction to the cold. If I opened the windows to any large degree I would have to wear gloves so thick that I could not handle a paint brush.

Can I safely use this Artisan thinner with minimal cross-ventilation (I only use about 2 - 3 mls (5 mls at the absolute max.) during any one session)?

Do you have any other information that could cause me to be more cautious?

Really appreciate your expert advice, as usual.

Many thanks in advance.


Repairing cracked masonite panel

Question asked 2019-11-27 21:51:13 ... Most recent comment 2019-11-27 21:38:00
Rigid Supports Handling and Transportation Art Conservation Topics Industrial and Non-Traditional Products Other Studio Tools and Tips

​A fellow artist and I collaborated on a piece together, in both acrylic and oil paint on a 36"x48" cradled Gessobord. I applied ArtResin to the piece which was curing perfectly in the storage area on the third floor of an art gallery. I went up to the painting on the third day and found a couple of deep cracks had appeared in the glossy ArtResin. Upon closer inspection I realized the cracks in the resin were a symptom of cracks in the masonite panel. Since it was in perfect condition two days prior, and it wasn't subject to wild fluctuations in temperature, I assume it fell and someone righted it, not realizing it has suffered. 

Now the other artist has been invited to ArtBasel and wants to take this piece. My question is; how can I repair the masonite so the end result is strong and also looks good enough should the piece sell?

I think I have figured out how to repair the resin by sanding it down and reapplying it, but any suggestions for that part are also appreciated.


Thanks in advance!

can linseed oil be used as a sizing/sealing agent

Question asked 2019-11-23 01:43:43 ... Most recent comment 2019-11-23 10:59:02
Sizes and Adhesives Rigid Supports

​Hi

A poster at the Wet Canvas forums recounted priming a panel with linseed oil. I recommended caution, never having heard of, or used, this technique. Others supported the practice, and said linseed oil would preserve the panel, and would dry to form a good sealant, suitable for painting. An internet search reveals no definitive argument one way or the other. I wonder is there a "last word" on the subject? Cheers!

Stapling canvas: sides or back

Question asked 2019-11-19 16:51:23 ... Most recent comment 2019-11-22 09:58:59
Flexible Supports

I seem to remember reading somewhere long ago (perhaps the old AMIEN forum) that stapling/tacking on the back was purely aesthetic and stapling on the side provided more stability/even tension and so was archivally preferable. Does anyone here have insight into this? Thanks.

Water-Miscible Oils, Revisited

Question asked 2019-11-16 13:22:49 ... Most recent comment 2019-11-19 18:39:44
Oil Paint

​Hello MITRA folks. I've inquired about water-miscible oils (as a option for underpainting) here before, and the response was that there was some concern about their long-term stability, being a relatively new product, because of some of the surfactent ingredients in some of the products on the market. Do you know if there are brands that do NOT incorporate these questionable ingredients? And if there are working practices that would mitigate any possible de-laminating effect down the road? On a related note, could using egg tempera (in the tube product form) be a reasonable substitute for washy underpainting techniques for an oil painting? I'm looking for a solvent-free option that is fluid, longer open time than acrylics, and one that can be left exposed in some areas (i.e. edges) of the finished oil painting. Thanks for any thoughts!

Mounting and framing works on paper

Question asked 2019-10-29 15:40:17 ... Most recent comment 2019-11-09 19:25:28
Matting, Framing, and Glazing Sizes and Adhesives

​Hello dear people from MITRA. 

I wanted to ask some questions about framing and mounting..

I don't know is this an issue in other countries and cities as well, but here in my country i have a serious problem with people who are framers, and with their method so to speak... 

They use mostly masking tapes (or painters tape) i think this is how you call it, mostly yellowish tape that can be ripped with hand easily.

They take the artwork on paper (watercolor, drawing etc.) and place it under  the passe- partout (mat). Then they use masking tape and put it on the 4 corners on the back of the artwork on paper so it will stick to the passe partout. Then they put glass on the front, and for the back they  use cardboard to press or hold the artwork and passepartout together . Close it, and that's it... 

So, i have seen that the right way to frame works on paper is to take conservation (archival tape) to mount the artwork on archival museum board (which they have never heard of) and then to put together passepartout and museum board so that passepartout will just lay over the artwork, Then glass on front, and cardboard on the back and to close the frame...

Since i cannot change their decades old way of framing i have found a store where i can at least buy the archival tapes. 

They will use this tape on the back corners of the artworks to hold it to passepartout. 

So can anyone please advise me which ones to buy for this?  (i will post links) 

https://www.crescat.hr/prozirne-konzervatorske-trakice-za-uramljivanje/     

(These ones are conservation tapes made of archival safe poliester which is put together with acid free paper with selfadhesive lining. 

and these ones  https://www.crescat.hr/konzervatorski-uglovi/    are a conservation corners (or photocorners) . They are made of 100 % acid free, archival, safe  polypropylene . It contains longlasting acrylic adhesive , 100 % water based


I think i would like to buy the archival tape (1st one) but if there is anyone who can check this and advise me on this, i would be more than grateful. 


Also if anyone thinks there is another solution to this, please say so.  Thank you all very much!


Kind regards


Marko Karadjinovic

yupo paper

Question asked 2019-11-03 15:49:52 ... Most recent comment 2019-11-05 16:42:40
Art Conservation Topics

​Can you paint on yupo paper with oil and will it absorb enough to not peel off over time.  Is it archival/

Gamvar for egg tempera or alternatives

Question asked 2019-10-22 11:46:42 ... Most recent comment 2019-10-31 04:26:45
Varnishes Egg Tempera

​I have a question about varnishes for egg tempera.  Until recently, I used boiled linseed oil, but it is a tremendously problematic varnish which changes the nature of painting (lead white becomes transparent, azurite becomes green etc.)  So I decided to seek something better.  Several substances came to my attention, one of them was GAMVAR.  I tested it and got very unpleasant surprise: wherever Gamvar came into contact with egg tempera paint, dreadful white spots appeared.  NOTE: those were not "blooming", I'd know the difference.  This was some kind of whitish residue that appeared on top of the painted layer, while Gamvar completely sunk into the paint.  Under-tempering is not a factor in this, I temper my paint quite well (egg-shell sheen), and apply nourishing layers often.  I also know that those whitish spots look exactly like when I had to clean gilded parts with mineral spirits, some of it got onto the paint and bleached it immediately.  

My friends who work in oil swear by Gamvar.  I decided to persist and varnish the painting I just finished with Gamvar, and even after 6 consecutive coats, there are lots of sinking as if it goes through the paint like through a sieve.  

Anybody had experience with this or has other varnishing options for egg tempera?  The properties I seek are:

1. Non yellowing
2. Something which would not cause blooming
3. Reasonably strong to protect the painting


High humidity for large canvas

Question asked 2019-10-23 09:46:39 ... Most recent comment 2019-10-24 04:27:21
Flexible Supports Storage Matting, Framing, and Glazing

​A student of mine just asked how she can protect a large cotton canvas from the really high levels of humidity in her new house.

The canvas was passed down to her and it belongs to the family. It is too large to mount on a panel. Because the walls are quite humid in the winter, she fears for the longevity of the painting.

I remember reading suggestions of gilding the back of the canvas of aluminium foil etc. Do you have any suggestion for this problem?


Thank you

Nelson

Phthalo Green mystery

Question asked 2019-10-02 12:09:29 ... Most recent comment 2019-10-19 14:54:34
Paint Making Paint Additives Oil Paint Scientific Analysis Pigments

Hello all,

I have a bit of a minor mystery that I'm hoping you can help me with.

I have been testing a lot of different paints from various brands when mixed with walnut oils to a more fluid texture and stored in the dark in a box in a wardrobe at room temperature.

This was to find the paints that stay open the longest without the use of clove oil, or other techniques.

As part of this I tested 9 different paints of either PB15 or PG7 (and in one case, a mix of both). From these tests I concluded that Phthalo pigments are indeed fast dryers as all of them except one totally dried in 2-8 days.

The one exception was a tube of Royal Talens Van Gogh Phthalo Green (PG7). This was still open for a few weeks when I had to stop the test and go on holiday. When I got back I thought I'd test all the colours to see if any were still open after all this time.

To my astonishment the paint was still open after 62 days! I then took the paint sample out of the dark and left it in a normal lit room for at least 3 weeks, after which it dried. The smell of the paint is the same as Linseed oil, the texture upon drying is firm (not soft) and the colour the same as other PG7 paints.

I tested this again with both pure paint and paint mixed with wallnut oil, again it stays open even for a few weeks exposed to the light.

I can only think that this paint has been exposed to some kind of anti-oxidant such as it used to preserve cooking oils, as I can't think of another reason why it stays open so long.

I would like a long drying PG7 paint, but I'm concerned about the resulting paint film integrity with using this paint.

I have emailed Royal Talens, but no response yet.

I was hoping you have some thoughts about what might be happening here?

Thanks,
Richard

Laser light damage?

Question asked 2019-10-06 15:31:17 ... Most recent comment 2019-10-08 15:52:01
Mural Painting Art Conservation Topics

​About four years ago I was in the Basilica of saint Francis of Assis and there were a number of what appeared to be friar guides using laser lights to direct their groups eyes around the murals high above them.  Could this be damaging to the pigments in the paintings? Hindsight is 2020, but instead of asking them directly I went to a guard and asked if they should be doing this.  "I understand but it's out of my control."

Were my concerns valid ones? I've since noticed it being done, if more briefly, on stained glass windows in the Chartres Cathedral as well.

Regalrez 1126

Question asked 2019-10-08 07:41:37 ... Most recent comment 2019-10-08 11:32:41

​just curious how to adjust the sheen of regalrez 1126?

Wheat and Rice Starch Adhesive Vs. Other Starches

Question asked 2019-10-07 02:45:01 ... Most recent comment 2019-10-07 21:42:04
Sizes and Adhesives

​Hi there! This might be a slightly esoteric question, but I was curious about the use of starch paste as an adhesive for use in paper artifact conservation.

Why are wheat and rice starches favoured over other types of starch, for example corn or potato starch?

Is it due to the ageing properties of the starch itself (I'm thinking for example of how simple wheat flour paste ages poorly due to the gluten content, though this presumably would not be the case with corn or potato, even in unpurified form)?

Or is it other qualities of the adhesive, such as reversability, cost, ease of application etc?

Thanks in advance!


Restoring unvarnished oil paintings

Question asked 2019-10-03 14:39:51 ... Most recent comment 2019-10-07 16:27:42
Art Conservation Topics

​Dear administrator,

I'm thinking whether to varnish or not oil paintings. 

Is it possible to clean old unvarnished oil painting in same methods as restaurator would do with varnished one?

Also, what would be expected result in comparison between the two?

Kind Regards,

Damir P.

Washing unused canvas

Question asked 2017-10-12 15:58:50 ... Most recent comment 2019-10-04 07:44:12
Flexible Supports

Is it safe to wash unused canvas in the washing machine? If not, can it be washed by hand? I came across a lot of 15 oz. cotton but it has some dirt in spots and deep creases that can't be ironed out.


tempera grassa

Question asked 2019-10-03 14:13:35 ... Most recent comment 2019-10-03 16:53:06
Egg Tempera

​Hi maybe you can answer this one. I've always assumed that you could safely paint oil on top of either acrylic, tempera or tempera grassa. But not in the opposite order. But today I met a seasoned painter, who argued that in the isolated case of tempera grassa, you could also paint on top of lean layers of oil paint without it causing any problems. This was because this oil-egg emulsion contained oil as a binder. What you think. I can't find any evidence online to substantiate this.

Metalpoint Grounds

Question asked 2019-10-01 15:03:12 ... Most recent comment 2019-10-01 20:25:47
Grounds / Priming Drawing Materials

Hi.  I'm doing more metalpoint ground experiments and have a few questions.

1. Does anyone know relative hardness (i.e. which is softest, which is hardest) of a cured film of the following binders: gum Arabic, egg yolk, casein, acrylic polymer, vinyl polymer, and oil?    I'm primarily working with water-based metalpoint grounds, but I made an oil ground and found that it works really well; it seems to abrade better than other surfaces, once it has fully cured.  So I'm wondering if an oil base is that much harder and resistant to a metal nib than the above water-based binders. 

2.  Gordon Hanley is a metalpoint artist who, apparently, (as seen in online reproductions of his work) achieves authentic blacks in his drawings (whereas most metalpoint artists get no more than deep grey).  He says he gets black by working with pure silver on a homemade, proprietary ground. Many metalpoint artists would like to know his secret, but he stays mum.

I made an oil based ground that consisted of 1 part Gamblin Brilliant White Oil Paint, 1 part silica, 1 part Liquin.  Not sure how durable such a combo is, but it did yield very dark marks - and, after sitting for a few months, I just noticed that one set of marks now appear genuinely black. (To my annoyance, I didn't note what metal nib made those mark).  The questions are: how durable is that combination of ingredients? And is there anything noteworthy in those ingredients that might account for deep grey metal marks turning black?

3.  I've played with adding different extenders (silica, bone ash, glass, barite, pumice, marble dust, chalk, historic pigments) to metalpoint grounds, to increase abrasion.  Silica gives the best results, which isn't surprising given its Moh's Hardness Scale rating of 7 (harder than any metal nib I use).  What is surprising is that Talc, with a MHS number of 1 (much softer than my metal nibs) also seems to minimally increase abrasion.  I've read up on the properties of talc but it's confusing for a non chemist to distinguish between natural versus milled state, etc. - I just don't understand it all. So my question is, does anyone know properties of talc (i.e. does it have an unusually rough morphology?) that might explain why it improves a metalpoint surface?  Is it accurate that all minerals, even after they've been milled, have an irregular morphology (versus, for example, some modern pigments that are quite smooth and round at the particle level)?

Thanks as always,  Koo Schadler

Underpainting and/or underdrawing for Encaustic

Question asked 2019-09-28 03:12:42 ... Most recent comment 2019-09-29 04:48:58
Encaustic Drawing Materials Egg Tempera Ink

​Hi All,

I am new to this forum and look forward to benefiting from the expertise gathered here.

I am currently working on a project that will involve 13 small panels (each one approximately the size of an A5 piece of paper) to be painted in encaustic - according to a preestablished design (each design being different). The panels themselves are 3 mm HDF panels coated with size and then several thin layers of traditional RSG and chalk whiting gesso. 

So I want to create an underpainting and/or an underdrawing to assist in the image creation before applying the encaustic paint. I'm thinking of using washes of india ink for my underdrawing as well as light washes of egg tempera to begin to establish color relationships. Are either one of these materials going to create an adhesion problem for the wax? I'm thinking not, but wanted to be sure. Of course, I do plan on fusing the painting by "burning it in", as this will allow the melted wax to fuse properly with the ground.

I did create a painting this way approximately 7 years ago. There was not then nor appears to be now any adhesion problem. But I thought I would check with the experts here as most current usage of encaustic appears to be at least fairly coarse if not abstract, so I do not easily find much information on creating recognizable or even detailed images using this technique.

Thanks in advance for your information.

Silverpoint and Egg Tempera

Question asked 2019-09-19 15:20:22 ... Most recent comment 2019-09-20 16:51:23
Animal Glue Egg Tempera Varnishes Drawing Materials

I have a fellow painter asking me about a piece she is creating in silverpoint and egg tempera.  As she rightly points out, the sulphur in egg yolk causes silver to oxidize (in fact, a bit of yolk is sometimes added to metalpoint grounds to speed up oxidation).  She may leave parts of the silverpoint visible in the final painting and doesn't want the silver to tarnish.  She is thinking of applying a layer of rabbit skin glue over the underdrawing, to seal it off, before painting in egg tempera on top.  I have a few questions about this:

1.  Because rabbit skin glue is so hygroscopic, would a very thin layer of platina shellac be a better option for sealing off the silverpoint uderdrawing before moving onto tempera?  

2.  I know there are many examples of egg tempera adhering well atop india ink underdrawings, so I understand ET can adhere to shellac - but if an entire panel is coated with a layer of shellac (as suggested above), is adherance of the tempera a bit more problematic?  If so, would a careful sanding of the shellac layer be sufficient to improve adhesion? 

3.  How porous are rabbit skin glue and shellac?  Would they entirely protect the silverpoint from oxidation (from either egg yolk or atmospheric sulphurs), or are they not sufficiently sealing?  Is a final varnish necessary to make sure that the parts of the silverpoint that remain visible don't tarnish?

4. When silverpoint underdrawings were used in the Renaissance, were they pretty much invariably covered with ink layers before egg tempera was applied?  Or are there Renaissance examples of egg tempera painted directly atop silverpoint?  I'm wondering, if egg tempera is applied directly onto silverpoint (no ink layers in between), do the tempera paint layers sufficieintly seal off the silver from oxidation, or does enough oxygen travel through the tempera to reach the underlying layers and cause the silver to oxidize if in direct contact with the tempera paint layers?  If so, would the resulting oxidation on the silverpoint compromise to any extent the adherance of the tempera to the silverpoint?

Thanks,

Koo Schadler

Stuck oil paint tube caps

Question asked 2019-09-18 02:42:44 ... Most recent comment 2019-09-18 23:04:19
Oil Paint

​HI,

this is probably one of the dumbest questions you have had, but here goes anyway: I don't always remember to clean the threads on the tubes, and just screw the caps back on after squeezing paint out. I usually get away with it, or having the caps just being a bit tight. But sometimes I may not use that colour for some weeks, or months, and the cap is well and truly stuck. (for some reason it doesn't affect all my tubes).

I saw a video on Youtube which showed someone upending the tube and placing the threaded part into just off boiling water. That  works, although sometimes has to be repeated once or twice more. I then squeeze out the paint that was in the threaded part of the tube and discard it.

I tried to scrape off just the hardened paint holding the cap to the threads, but caps wouldn't budge. Tried using a rag and some multigrips but just broke part of the caps (tubes still salvageable).

Apart from getting my act together and (1) carefully cleaning the threads (and inside the cap) after using the tube, have you got any other better ideas? (2) Is my Youtube hot water method likely to damage the paint in the body of the tube nearest the threads? It seems to look and handle OK afterwards, but just worried that the hot water might damage the paint in the top part of the tube which might cause problems later down the track.

Appreciate your feedback

Drying time for extra acrylic gesso primer to canvas

Question asked 2019-09-18 02:58:56 ... Most recent comment 2019-09-18 22:50:41
Grounds / Priming

​Hi,

How long should you wait between extra applications of this gesso before applying the next coat?

On the container it says to let dry between coats, but I use it to fill in the weave of the canvas to give a smoother surface to apply oil paint on. The canvases are already triple primed by the manufacturer but weave of canvas still obvious, which I dislike. When I apply extra gesso I use a bit of pressure to try and drive it into the weave. I can see/feel when the outer part is dry but can't really know when the deepest part is properly dry.

Does it really matter provided the outer part is dry? JustPaint.org state that you should wait 3 days after applying the final acrylic gesso layer before you apply oil paint. Should I wait the same time between coats when applying extra gesso, for reasons given above?

Thanks in advance

Pigment absorption on skin contact

Question asked 2019-09-15 18:49:51 ... Most recent comment 2019-09-16 16:27:53
Health and Safety Oil Paint Pigments

​Dear MITRA administrator,

Can pigment ground in linseed oil without solvent be absorbed in body when one touches wet paint with fingers?

I believe lead white can because M.Rossol writes ''Lead metals, lead oxide and lead nitrate are known to absorb through the skin.'' (Artist's H&S Guide page 157.). But what about others like TiO2, Iron oxides, Cobalt, Manganese, etc?

Kind Regards.

Lascaux Spray Varnish & Wax Medium

Question asked 2019-09-16 08:06:13 ... Most recent comment 2019-09-16 12:02:02
Varnishes

​I have a student who applied ten, thin layers of Lascaux spray varnish on an egg tempera painting; then, after it had sat for a few weeks, applied a layer of Gamblin wax medium on top.  The wax medium felt "sticky" as she applied it so she ended up having to rub it fairly vigorously.  When she lifted her rag, there were traces of pigment on it.  Ten layers of Lascaux, even thinnly applied, should be enough to fully seal the tempera.  It might seem like the solvent in the wax medium dissovled in part the Lascuax, but my understanding is that Lascaux's solvent is alcohol, whereas the wax medium's solvent is OMS.  Am I correct in that?  Any thoughts on what might be going on?

Thanks, Koo Schadler

Paint adhesion to support problem

Question asked 2019-09-12 14:17:56 ... Most recent comment 2019-09-15 01:08:29
Grounds / Priming Oil Paint Rigid Supports

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I have a support that has been stored in my closet for at least ten years. It is Belgian Linen mounted on Mahogany board with Rabbit Skin Glue. It appears to have vertical shiny lines which I would imagine to have something to do with the RSG. The surface does have a slick, slightly greasy feel. 

I began to paint on the panel with a wash of Warm Sepia Extra and Gamsol to do the line drawing as I have done for decades. The head and hair portion are two days old, plenty of time to dry to the touch. When I painted on it the next day the end of my Mahlstick touched a portion that I had done the previous day and took off some paint from the surface of the Warp of the Linen. The next day I took some paint without Gamsol and began to model the darks on the figure. This morning as the video shows I can lightly rub some of the paint away which has never happened before. 

Needless to say I am concerned. Before even attempting to continue I am writing to you, and am shortly on my way to the person that has been making my supports since 1986 so we may possibly see what the problem might be. 

Any insight would be greatly appreciated. I’d like to continue on with this support if possible. My paintings have very little paint on the surface, no medium, and usually about three or four passes.

Chemical Formula

Question asked 2019-09-12 20:51:48 ... Most recent comment 2019-09-12 21:37:10
Drying Oils Paint Mediums Solvents and Thinners

​Dear Mitra Conservators,

I would like to know the chemical formula of linseed oil, stand oil, distilled turpentine, spike oil, and dammar varnish but I have found it difficult to find this information.  Can someone provide this information for me or recommend a source ?

Best regards and thank you for the service your provide to artists,

Hector Hernandez







Varnishing Metalpoing

Question asked 2019-09-12 14:34:21 ... Most recent comment 2019-09-12 15:13:16
Varnishes Drawing Materials

I'm working on a mixed media metalpoint.  I'm using gold, copper, brass, bronze, silver and bismuth nibs to represent the hues of an oriole I'm depicting.  I do not want the base metals to tarnish; additionally, I'm framing the work without glazing.  For both those reasons I'll be varnishing the piece, with either a very thinned layer of platina shellac (the benefits & drawbacks of which we've gone over on the forum, so I won't belabor that issue) or B-72 (I know, a better choice, but I don't like how "plasticy" it feels/looks), then following either isolating layer with an application of wax medium.  Will this be sufficient to seal off the image and inhibit tarnishing?

Thanks,

Koo Schadler

Cutting Absorbency of Traditional Gesso

Question asked 2019-09-12 07:37:23 ... Most recent comment 2019-09-12 14:26:12
Grounds / Priming

When painting oil on top of a traditional chalk & glue ground, to cut the absorbency I generally recommend first applying a thin layer of shellac or rabbit skin glue on the gesso.  Any other recommendations?

Thanks,

Koo Schadler  

Incising into a Ground Layer?

Question asked 2019-09-05 22:14:30 ... Most recent comment 2019-09-09 16:40:33
Acrylic Grounds / Priming Oil Paint

​Hello MITRA folks. Can you suggest an acrylic product that could be used as a ground layer thick enough to draw lines into with a rubber tip and when dry (on panel) can be safely painted over with oil paint? (And how long would the 'open' time be?) Before the research about Zinc came out, I was happily doing this with pale Zinc blends, and then painting into the lines and overall with oil paint. A look I really loved, but lost of few to delamination, and now I understand why... Thank you for any suggestions!

Pumice powder mixed into oil paint

Question asked 2019-09-07 16:08:30 ... Most recent comment 2019-09-09 16:00:11
Oil Paint

​In my search for the best oil medium for thinning oil paint to the extreme without being up overly glossy, I came across a thread that suggested using pumice powder for a matte appearance. This sounds intriguing because my aim is to paint mountainous scenes by first pouring the paint and letting things happen as they do and then working into those poured layers. Some might say to use acyrlis for this type of approach but i'd rather start to explore other ways of getting an alcohol ink type look on the canvas.

Varnishing acrylic and oil paintings

Question asked 2019-09-04 13:45:24 ... Most recent comment 2019-09-05 22:59:56
Varnishes

I have a few questions about varnishing that I would like to clarify:

  1. Some manufacturers claim their acrylic​ mediums to be usable as varnishes as well. I assume that the water-based ones won't work on oil paintings, but can they really be used for acrylic paintings?
  2. Some acrylic varnishes are solvent-based (mineral spirits, etc), and it seems those are the ones compatible with oil paintings. However, are there any advantages to using them on acrylic paintings? Some claim to provide UV protection, but is this relevant and (generally) of higher degree than water-based mediums used as varnishes?

Paint integrity - Medium

Question asked 2019-08-23 13:38:02 ... Most recent comment 2019-08-30 05:45:15
Oil Paint Pigments

​I have a very limited palette. Michael Harding Cremnitz White, Robert Doaks Smalt Blue, Terra Rosa and Lead Tin Yellow GE, Old Holland Warm Sepia Extra and Mars Black. I do have Doaks Gen Ivory as an option. 

Two questions:

I was reading last night on your site that there is a problem with Smalt. I've been using it since 2004 with no problems fully realizing that is just a speck of time. Would it be a good idea to replace mine, if so any suggestions?

I had been using a tiny amount of Mineral Spirits in the past if need_1JG6973_F.jpg. If I need a bit more loose paint would Cold Pressed Linseed Oil be the safest thing to use?

The surface of my canvas has very little paint. I'm including a small work to see. I no longer use medium in my paintings since 2005. At that time I was using Blockx Amber with a little Cold Pressed Linseed Oil and Mineral Spirits. I started using that medium in 1993 again, the paintings look as when they were initially painted but I do realize that is not nearly a substantial amount of time to discern any problems.

Sinking in of umbers

Question asked 2019-08-28 02:11:23 ... Most recent comment 2019-08-28 19:12:52
Oil Paint

​Hi,

just read your document on FAQ's etc, in regard to sinking in of the umbers, apparently because of their clay content (PBr7 from natural iron oxide ore).

(1) I have just noted that W & N make a similar colour, synthetic iron oxide PR101 (transparent brown oxide) which has, apparently, micronised pigment particles which I doubt would contain any organic substances such as the problematic clay referred to above? If I use the latter should I then avoid the sinking in associated with PBr7? (all other things being equal);

(2) If I use an oil-based primed canvas such as lead white (instead of an acrylic gessoed one) would this stop the sinking in, even if I use PBr7? 

Many thanks in advance

Resource of Oil Painting Best Practices

Question asked 2019-08-23 17:53:09 ... Most recent comment 2019-08-27 17:46:50
Oil Paint Solvents and Thinners Studio Tools and Tips Paint Mediums

Can anyone recommend a book, article or website that would teach me the best practices for creating a structurally sound oil painting, especially in layers? I read so much conflicting information on fat over lean, and the use of mediums. I am experimenting with water mixable oils, but I figure that a resource on traditional oils would be helpful if I replace "solvent" with "water." Many thanks.​

Coroplast acid free versus regular

Question asked 2019-08-23 12:33:46 ... Most recent comment 2019-08-26 16:34:52
Matting, Framing, and Glazing Industrial and Non-Traditional Products Other Rigid Supports

I am considering using Coroplast as a support for large (48 x 48) drawings  on archival Tyvek. My main question is whether I need to use acid free or if standard white coroplast is neutral an inert. See more details below.

I have an exhibition coming up very soon that I need to prepare for. My original solution was to use acid free foamcore but its arriving with dented edges so I am exploring alternative more durable materials.

I will use acid free tape to adhere the drawings​ to what ever support I will use. There will not be a frame, but the work will be protected by a sheet of plexiglass that will be spaced away from the work. L screws will mount the work to the wall with custom spacers to separate glazing from the drawings.

In some research online I came across a discussion stating that there is no difference in acidity between the acid free coroplast and colored coroplast that is not acid free (white or clear is what I would prefer). It may be easier to find the regular coroplast locally in the large sheets that I need which is why I am asking if there is a significant difference. I may be able to line the support with an extra sheet of Tyvek as a barrier if that would be necessary.

thanks very much!

Overpainting eco-solvent inks

Question asked 2019-08-23 02:30:22 ... Most recent comment 2019-08-26 12:03:12
Ink Oil Paint Paint Mediums Industrial and Non-Traditional Products Dyes Grounds / Priming Solvents and Thinners Sizes and Adhesives Pigments

​I wish to overpaint in oils a canvas with an existing image in eco-solvent ink. Is there a bonding spray that would permit this? 

Egg tempera varnishing

Question asked 2019-08-25 06:40:40 ... Most recent comment 2019-08-26 11:59:10
Egg Tempera

​I am fairly new to your forum and I am not sure whether is fine to ask a question already placed some time ago.

I am currently at my final year of my Icon painting studies in Russia and I will soon be faced with this dilemma of varnishing. Here at our school they have taught us to varnish using Olifa,boiled linseed oil. This method works well in Russia due to their weather conditions but in my country Cyprus, Olifa tends not to dry and remains sticky. It also doesn't provide enough protection. Apart from that it ruins the warm and cold relationships upon which the icons are built on. Some people tried using Olifa mixed with boat varnish to make the final film stronger. Others just place Olifa for 5 hours remove it, wait for the icon to dry and varnish with an acrylic varnish. This provides some protection from the solvents in the varnish and ensures even spreading of the varnish. I have tried replacing Olifa with Poppy oil that doesn't change the colors and then place the varnish on top. This still is not ideal since this oil as well doesn't seem to dry in my country's  conditions.

I have read your suggestions about PVA ethanol or acetone based followed by varnishing. This is the first time I read about it and I have some questions.

1. Will it be fine to use this method on a freshly painted icon? Wont the acetone or ethanol react with the egg since they are organic solvents? People don't understand that an icon needs to cure before varnishing.

2. Will the isolation layer be even since no oil is present to saturate the ET layer?

3.Does this method provide sufficient protection? People tend to care for icons but not in a proper way which sometimes destroys them

4. Does this method has any effects on naturally occurring pigments such as cinnabar, lapis lazuli, carmine?

Thank you

Haralambos

More questions on 'painting into wet oil paint'

Question asked 2019-08-25 22:36:29 ... Most recent comment 2019-08-26 11:51:47
Oil Paint

​Hi all,

This question possibly should have have put thru the 'post user comment' function on a previous post of mine dated 2019.8.06, titled: Painting into wet oil paint., but I don't know if it would have been spotted and answered, so I have put it here. Appreciate your advice on what is the best way to go about this.

Anyway, after carefully re-reading the moderator comments I still have a little doubt concerning my latest portrait project and would appreciate your advice again:

About 2 weeks ago I did a very thin underpainting in traditional oils straight from the tube, onto an acrylic gesso primed canvas (only professional quality name-brand oils/canvas used. As the canvas was triple-primed by the manufacturer I did not add any more gesso). No solvents or mediums. When I touch it, it is very slightly tacky and rubbing a tissue on the painted area (burnt sienna PB7/PR101) produced a very slight stain on the paper. Both these effects were only very slight.

I have been painting for some years and in the past have used an OMS thinned wash for initial underpainting, which dries fairly quickly. I am trying to avoid using solvents now, just paste paint.

I have tried the 'fingernail indent' test but the paint is so thin that I couldn't make much of this test.

Should I wait until the painting is completely dry to the touch before applying a further layer? I have never been so exacting before, but now are producing paintings for others so want to avoid any issues down the track. 

Many thanks again


Lavender spike oil as a solvent/thinner

Question asked 2019-08-21 16:58:09 ... Most recent comment 2019-08-23 19:07:35
Solvents and Thinners

Hi,

I added this onto the tail end of another discussion but probably should have started a new question, so here goes:

I note that in this discussion it was said that.. using large amounts of an essential oil is detrimental. Is using Lavender spike oil: tube oil paint in 1:1 or even up to 2:1 (max.) OK?

I.E. what is the dilution limit you can use in an underpainting and still achieve adequate adhesion?

Recently reading an article from Jerry's artarama re this oil indicates that the vapours are non-toxic and it evaporates about the same speed as OMS, can be mixed with mediums, and a safe alternative to OMS. (no special ventilation requirements). My understanding of the MSDS also gives no concerns unless you swallow it or get it in your eyes. The only drawback seems to be the high price as compared to OMS.

Many thanks in advance

Sizing Handmade Papers

Question asked 2019-08-21 10:15:45 ... Most recent comment 2019-08-23 18:21:20
Gouache Ink Sizes and Adhesives Watercolor

​What would be my options for sizing an absorbent handmade paper (i.e. a Japanese paper) for a subsequent ink, watercolor and gouache painting? It would be framed under glass or plexi when finished, of course. Thanks for your thoughts, MITRA folks!

Paint integrity - Medium

Question asked 2019-08-23 13:30:57 ... Most recent comment 2019-08-23 13:00:00
Oil Paint Pigments

No gamsol but still fat over lean process

Question asked 2016-11-28 16:18:20 ... Most recent comment 2019-08-20 19:29:18
Drying Oils Environment Oil Paint Paint Mediums Solvents and Thinners
Has any one of you experience with Lavender spike oil or Zest-it products to replace gamsol in the beginning of the painting process? I would like to work with more environment and health friendly products. Normally I use gamsol for the transparant wash and mix gamsol and lineseed for Amber underpainting. Lineseedoil in my first layer of full paint and stand oil in second layer. Than when finished a varnish. So if I start with a spike oil (which maybe does not give a stable paint layer) from the beginning in the first 2 steps, I need varnish in my second paint layer which Is not preferable. So how do I get a wash and underpainting transparant but still working or adapting all the fat over lean steps?

Thinning oil paints with solvents

Question asked 2019-08-19 19:05:24 ... Most recent comment 2019-08-20 19:09:57
Oil Paint

​RE: how much can you thin down tube paints without encountering adhesion problems? I have frequently read that the maximum dilution of solvent: oil paint is somewhere between 1:1 to 2:1. Any more than this will leave the paint film underbound, i.e. not enough oil binder to stick the pigment to the canvas. But recently I read/heard somewhere that it doesn't matter anyway provided you paint over this immediately with paint layers with much less solvent as subsequent layers would contain enough binder to provide adequate adhesion. I have watched numerous YouTube videos of professional artists using really watery washes (the wash runs down the canvas) to either tone the canvas or lay-in a drawing. I have seen this so many times (an in art classes) that if it was such a detrimental practice to the longevity of the final painting surely they would have changed their practices by now. After all, if you are doing paid portrait commissions and a few years later they fail in some way then that would be disasterous for business. How do they get away with flouting the common sense 'rules', or doesn't it really matter provided you paint immediately into this watery wash with thicker paint?

Would love to hear some definitive statement on this.

Many thanks

Filling in the weave of a canvas

Question asked 2019-08-19 18:44:38 ... Most recent comment 2019-08-20 18:39:07
Grounds / Priming

​Hi,

with regards to using a canvas with a medium textured weave (or any but the finest weave for that matter) I have recently read that it is best to even out the surface with extra acrylic gesso so that the "ground equalizes  the surface of the support." .........."this would involve losing the grain or texture of the canvas, so that oil paint layers applied over the painting ground like down flat and evenly." (P295 Pip Seymour, The Artist's Handbook, 2003.) I have often wondered about that, but this is the first time I have seen it in print from a seemingly reputable source.

I would prefer to skip this extra gessoing if possible, but is it best practice to follow Seymour's advice? It does seem technically logical what he says.

Appreciate your expert input,

Many thanks

Ampersand gessobord panels

Question asked 2019-08-15 23:03:49 ... Most recent comment 2019-08-18 22:49:31
Rigid Supports

​Hi,

Over the years I have used a number of surfaces for painting with traditional oils, including stretching my own canvases, etc. I am over this now and just want to paint using commercially prepared surfaces. I dislike the 'give' when you are painting on stretched  canvas and will probably concentrate on rigid panels. The only quality commercially prepared panel I could find is Ampersand gessobord which, they claim, has 2 layers of 'seal' between the panel and acrylic gesso primer and support-induced discolouration will not occur. They state the only substance left in the panel during manufacture is natural lignin (glue). I have recently painted on a small sample panel and then tried to scrape the paint away from the gesso without any success. I then tried to dig into the panel to try and seperate the gesso but no go. The panel itself does not crumble and the whole thing appears sturdy, at least to my basic testing. Ampersand claim they are archival and will last over 200 years. JustPaint.org state that rigid supports are more archival than flexible ones (Canvas, linen). 

I have no association with Ampersand except as a customer. I have more recently begun a portrait in oils on a larger gessobord. I did an underpainting with thinned watercolour (according to JustPaint.org this is fine provided the layer is thin and you let it dry properly. They also say it can be re-worked by simply wetting it) which means I can avoid solvents altogether, hence my reason for using a gessoed panel. I don't want to use panels with canvas stuck on them as youy don't know if SID will occur and the textile can still move anyway due to temperature and humidity changes. Where I live it can get over 40 deg. Cel in summer at times.

I know that Ampersand make other panels, but I want one ready to paint on and with the Archival seal, hence Gessoboard. They only disadvantage is that the larger panels have to be in a cradle which is quite expensive. The smaller ones need to be framed, which has to be factored in, cost-wise. For less important works I would just go back to stretched canvases. I use cheap canvas panels for quick studies.

Am I on the right track? Are Ampersand gessobords really a quality archival surface? I really want to find a good quality pre-prepared gessoed panel and hope these Ampersand ones fit the bill.

Appreciate your comments,

John

Painting over a 10 year-old underpainting

Question asked 2019-08-15 02:38:56 ... Most recent comment 2019-08-16 16:50:35
Oil Paint

​Hi all,

I did an underpainting (self portrait) about 10 years ago. It was one initial thin layer either scrubed in tube paint or with a bit of OMS added. I think it possibly was the former as some areas have a slight sheen, but most of it is matte. I would have used the same process across the entire canvas, not with OMS in some areas and scrubed-in paste paint in others. I was reasonably accurate as far as drawing goes but no details. I didn't use OMS much then, as now.

For some reason I put this aside to dry and couldn't get the drive to re-start it due to a lengthy illness in the family, then eventually forgot about it. I am almost certain it was W & N acrylic gesso triple primed. It is a stretched canvas and there is no indication of paint/oil penetration to the rear of the canvas. It is life-size from top of a cap to below belt and I am reluctant to throw it away as it was part of my art journey at that time. The canvas probably needs tightening a bit.

I have read some of the discussions here about pentimenti; scraping, sanding and wiping with OMS and would appreciate your comments on my proposed method: 

(1) Clean the whole canvas with OMS on a lint-free cloth. Let this dry. (2) As there are  no raised areas/impasto, or indeed any surface imperfections, I would then sand it lightly to give a uniform matte surface. Taking care not to damage the acrylic gesso. Clean any particles off completely and (3) wipe it down again with OMS. Let this dry, then (4) apply a thin layer of titanium white. (5) Let this dry (fingernail indent test) then start painting in thin layers of paste paint straight from tube until I get to the desired finish.

Probably I should start a new painting but I want to re-use this existing canvas. If one day it 'fails' then that's fate I suppose. 

Many thanks in advance.

Painting over an existing portion of a painting

Question asked 2019-08-05 10:58:48 ... Most recent comment 2019-08-14 20:00:16
Oil Paint Grounds / Priming

​I have a painting that was completed in February. It is oil on a ground of Golden White Acrylic Gesso on a cotton support with wood stretchers. Paint straight from the tube, Old Holland. Occassionaly wash a brush out in Gamsol but blot on a rag to remove the liquid. I paint very thin, this particular portion may have one or two coats primariliy made of greys, some red in other areas. I believe it was Titanium White, Mars Black and Cad Red Purple. A tiny touch of Old Holland Cyan Blue in someof the Greys.IMG_0866.jpg The texture of the canvas is easily seen and felt. I would like to replace that portion with a Union 76 Ball. This gives you the idea of color I will be dealing with. I have ideas of how to do this, but I would prefer to ask you as I have never done this before and want to do it the best way for archival purposes. 

I appreciate any and all help and am happy to supply any additional information necessary.

Removing water stains from oil on linen painting in progress

Question asked 2019-07-17 01:47:35 ... Most recent comment 2019-08-14 19:52:34
Oil Paint Flexible Supports Solvents and Thinners Other

​Dear MITRA,

I am about to resume work on a large format oil on linen diptych after it had to be placed on the back burner for a few years.  At my previous studio, I had some mysterious leaks or perhaps a humidity condensation issue that periodically dripped a pale, thin brown liquid from various areas of the ceiling. After moving to a different space, I discovered that some of this liquid had apparently hit the floor in front of one of these large oils, and then splashed back up onto the lower area of the painting. Luckily the drops were so small that the linen was not damaged, but a series of small water stains/rings were left behind. I tried to gently clean them off with a touch of distilled water, but that wasn't strong enough. OMS worked better, but once the OMS evaporated, you could still see a fainter trace of the whitish-looking rings. Should I try artists' rectified turpentine, then wipe away the turps residue with OMS? If any micro-pores were opened up in the paint as a result of using the stronger solvent, it might increase adhesion anyway since the paintings have been waiting for so long for me to complete them. Please let me know how you think I should best proceed.

If it matters, I am using oils made with walnut oil, and initially used a solvent-based alkyd medium, then a walnut/alkyd. 

Thanks very much!

Rembrandt's paintings question

Question asked 2019-08-13 15:27:24 ... Most recent comment 2019-08-14 19:41:19
Art Conservation Topics Oil Paint Scientific Analysis Technical Art History

​The Rembrandt paintings I have seen in the National Gallery in London (and others online) have a strong dominant yellow-brown hue range. Is this just down to the pigments used and his palette preferences, or is some of this the result of yellowing varnish?

Using natural soil pigments on paper?

Question asked 2019-01-24 06:06:43 ... Most recent comment 2019-08-14 19:00:36
Paint Making Watercolor Pigments

​Dear MITRA Moderators, 

I want to create a three-layered paper piece based on the element of Earth. I'm doing a four-piece suite, one for each element, and am involving each element directly (for fire, I burned the edges of the paper), etc.

I'm using a 300 lb paper for the first layer, and would like to use natural pigments including clay soil. I'll adhere a second layer (140lb paper) to the first with a brayer, using a product recommended to me by the art supply representative (Daniel Smith Transparent Watercolor Ground). I'd like to use natural pigments here, including clay soil and a homemade walnut stain. For the final paper layer, I'll adhere a thinner paper (I think it's 90 lb) and use watercolor pencils. I plan to distress the first and second paper layers respectively to expose the pigment underneath.

Does this sound like a sound approach? Can you use regular clay from a yard or creek? Is homemade walnut stain ok to use, or would it be too acidic, etc? 

Many thanks! I'm really excited about this project!

Martin F. Weber "Cleaning Solution for Oil Paintings

Question asked 2019-08-12 08:50:58 ... Most recent comment 2019-08-13 19:30:00
Art Conservation Topics

Hello all.

I am looking for any information about this product.  It has been discontinued by Weber and there is very little information provided by the manufacturer.  Online searches for data about it and its intended use is also not popping up.  Does anyone have information they care to share?

Thanks!

Mike Townsend

Fix Charcoal Underdrawings

Question asked 2019-08-11 18:26:07 ... Most recent comment 2019-08-11 22:23:41
Oil Paint Drawing Materials

​Hi, 

I’m working with compressed charcoal #2B, #4B and #6B underdrawing on linen canvas and Williamsburg Lead Oil Ground. I would like to control where the charcoal mixes with the lead linseed oil underpainting.

I’ve read two articles on Just Paint hoping I might find a solution but in both cases they don’t recommend using MSA or a retouching varnish.

1) Why Oil Painting Over MSA or Archival Varnish Is Not Recommended

https://www.justpaint.org/why-oil-painting-over-msa-or-archival-varnish-is-not-recommended/

2) Oiling Out and the Cause of Dead Spots in Oil Paintings

https://www.justpaint.org/oiling-out-of-dead-colors-in-oil-paintings/

I’m considering two options: 

1) Use Williamsburg Alkyd Resin, cut with Turpentine or Gamsol 1:1 or 1:2 and spray a thin layer over the charcoal drawing before applying the lead oil paint.

2) I’ve tested this formula: linseed oil, damar resin (5-pound cut)  and turpentine (1:1:3), and after waiting 1-3 hours, I applied the lead oil paint. This test did not to work very well since the thin retouching varnish layer disolved when I applied the lead oil paint.

I would appreciate any feedback about the two options mentioned and an alternaitive approach.

Thanks so much,

Paul

Re: clarification on "Confusing concepts in oil painting...etc"

Question asked 2019-08-06 19:52:16 ... Most recent comment 2019-08-08 02:27:55
Oil Paint

​Hi,

fascinated by this discussion re abandoning the fat-over-lean and thick-over-thin that we have been taught. From the comments made about 'glazing' i.e. just use paint straight out of the tube ( = paste paint) and with a stiff brush apply it thinly, it would seem that you can paint each layer thinly, even the final one.

Appreciate your advice on what I wish to do in constructing a non-toxic painting (no solvents): (1) for the initial layer I do a block-in drawing with e.g. burnt sienna. This layer is quite thin and I 'tonk it out' (i.e. put absorbent paper towel on top and rub most of the paint off). I am left with a thin layer. This would approximate the idea of an initial layer using a solvent/oil wash. I think the oil in subsequent layers should be able to penetrate this and bind to the canvas.

(2) When doing indirect painting, for subsequent layers I will apply paste paint thinly (as per your advice), allowing each layer to go touch dry before applying the next, until I reach my final degree of finish. i.e. EACH LAYER is paste paint applied thinly. I plan not to use any added oil or medium because I dislike the slipperiness that this causes. From your original article these additions appear unnescessary anyway.

Appreciate your feedback





Painting into wet oil paint

Question asked 2019-08-06 20:33:10 ... Most recent comment 2019-08-08 02:14:39
Oil Paint

​Hi,

when doing indirect oil painting how long should you wait before you apply the next layer? (using paste paint straight from the tube, unaltered in any way). From my understanding of artists comments it would seem commonplace for them to e.g. start a painting in the morning; then have a lunch break, then return to the painting to add further layers in the afternoon. I have also heard that some artists will overpaint the following day(s) because the iniitial painting is still wet. Stating that this slow drying was one of the advantages of oil paint in that you could continue to work on the same painting day-after-day.

From one of the articles on this forum it discusses how oil paints dry through a process of oxidative polymerization i.e. oxygen permeates the oil paint and starts the long, slow process of cross-linking of the binder molecules until a solid eventuates. Subsequent layers slow the ingress of oxygen down into the underlying layers but don't stop it. This process is faster at the start, then slows down apparently. 

If I was to apply additional paint to a partially dried layer does this have any detrimental effect on the polymerization of underlying layers? For example, in the case stated above where I return to a partially dried painting the same day, or the following day(s), will I do permanent damage? Or will it have no negative effect on the painting as a whole? It seems such a common practice.

I realize that enviromental factors come into play in that in hotter weather the paint will dry faster than in mid-winter. But I have never heard this being a factor in relation to the above scenario.

Another reason for my question is that in our summer time it can get really hot, well into the 30 degrees ,or higher, and the paint will start to tack up a little bit even after just a couple of hours. Should I stop then and let it go touch-dry, or OK to keep painting?

Appreciate your advice

Pyrrole Red

Question asked 2019-08-06 10:12:52 ... Most recent comment 2019-08-06 19:06:25
Pigments

​I'm working with a new pigment, Pyrrole Red PR 254.  It resists wetting, so I added a bit of alcohol to disperse and convert it to a paste.  Usually once a pigment has successulfy dispersed in water, and it dries out, adding more water readily rewets it.  However when the Pyrrole paste dried out, adding more water didn't reconvert it to a paste; I had to add more alcohol.  I'm interested in this, as well as any other comments on Pyrrole Red, which is new to me.

Thanks, Koo Schadler

Confusing Concepts in Oil Painting: Fat over Lean... Thick Over Thin... Thick Over Lean... Whatever... Let's Get Rid of Them.

Question asked 2019-08-01 01:19:37 ... Most recent comment 2019-08-04 14:21:20
Oil Paint

Let's toss out the concepts of “fat over lean” and for that matter “thick over thin” (or the confused “thick over lean”) while we are at it, and let's consider the physical structure of the paint.

To help you to understand the properties of oil paint, it is helpful to understand the relation between the pigment and oil. One way to think about the relationship between pigment and binder is a brick wall. Every mason knows there is an ideal ratio of mortar to brick. Too much mortar and the wall is weak. Not enough mortar and the bricks fall apart.The same relationship exists between the pigments and binder in dried paint. We call this relationship or ratio the pigment volume concentration or PVC. Pigment volume concentration (PVC) is the volume of pigment compared to the volume of all solids. If paint has a PVC of 30, than 30% of the total binder/pigment is pigment and 70% is binder solids.

The point at which there is just enough binder to wet pigment particles is called the critical pigment volume concentration (CPVC). For almost all colors this is between 45% and 55% PVC. Films with lower concentrations of pigment have more gloss but as the PVC increases they become increasingly matte. Films with high percentages of pigment are more permeable to moisture and susceptible to solvents. This is because with more pigment, there is less binder to fill the voids between pigment particles. This porosity leaves the film open to the environment. Films with higher pigmentation have increasingly lower tensile strength.

Most paint in tubes contain enough binder to wet and envelope pigment particles and so are at about the critical pigment volume concentration for that color. The variation in the pigment volume of particular colors between brands are due to the type of oil used, the amount of oil (some paint makers may choose to make their colors softer or thicker) and the amount of additives.

So the best way to discuss paint is by understanding this relation between the pigment and oil which is expressed as the pigment volume concentration (PVC). Oil paint(straight out of the tube is in the form of a paste and is usually at its CPVC. Adding oil lowers the PVC of oil paint, while adding solvent potentially increases the PVC (high PVC). Hence the ideal paint is a paste paint and this is why the admonition to “apply thick paint thinly” or work with paste paint in thin layers, is the optimum way of using oil paint.

From this it is clear that paint consists of both liquid and solid components. In the case of oil paint, the liquid component is a drying vegetable oil. The oil undergoes chemical and physical processes that change it from a liquid to a solid, which process is called “oxidative polymerization”. Oil is the binder or glue that holds the pigment particles (solids) together and adhered to a substrate.

When it comes to adhesion oil is the glue. While many artists believe that mechanical adhesion is most important when it comes to adhesion of paint to a substrate, what is more important is “dispersive adhesion”, which does not rely on absorption into a substrate or surface texture (although the latter improves dispersive adhesion) but rather on surface energy and polarity. Hence, paste paint adheres better than paint that has been heavily diluted with solvent (high PVC) even if it is partially absorbed into the substrate, because it has less oil or binder to adhere to the surface of the substrate.

Requesting Explanation on posting: Confusing Concepts in Oil Painting....

Question asked 2019-08-03 11:22:33 ... Most recent comment 2019-08-03 19:18:53
Oil Paint

Thanks for that great explanation on PVC for oils! I have 4 follow up questions -  If we are to use the correct PVC for our oil paintings and adhere to the "paste paint adheres better" approach, then does this (1) eliminate the initial thinned out under painting stage or use of a light colored undertone for the canvas? (2) eliminate the oiling out between paint layers? (3) are we better off by eliminating any additional Alkyd mediums to help make the oil paints more fluid? (4) and lastly, how would our applications of a "glazing" layer for special effects, be adjusted to keep everything in a PVE balance?

Patrick

Amount of zinc in titanium white oil paints - some information

Question asked 2018-03-09 14:17:46 ... Most recent comment 2019-07-28 22:20:22
Pigments Scientific Analysis Oil Paint

​Hi all,

I've emailed several art manufacturers that I use here in the UK regarding the amount of zinc in their titanium white oil paint.

Here are the results which may prove useful to you all:

CompanyProportion of Zinc
Winsor & Newton - Artist Oils"There is not enough to cause a brittle film--less than 2%."
Royal Talens - Rembrandt"The percentage of zinc oxide for both products is between 5% and 10% … They both contain the same amount of Zinc. The Safflower oil makes sure it’s getting less yellow."
Schminke - Norma"we can say that our #11114 titanium white have a content of PW4 lower than 10%."
M Graham - Oil Color"I have been told that we use under 3% Zinc in our Titanium. We do have a zinc free oil 11-181 that I can recommend if there is a concern."
Jacksons - Artist and Professional Oil RangeWon't reply after 2 mails
Blockx"Paint made with Titanium Dioxide pigment is very hard and misses elasticity. So, we do add indeed a very little Zinc pigment. But the proportion is of course secret. And will defer from one manufacturer to another. " - Won't reply after 2 more chasing emails
M Harding"It's about 10% of the overall volume."
Williamsburg"We are happy to report that we do not use any zinc in our Titanium White oil paint." - 0%
SennelierWon't reply after 2 mails
Maimeri - ClassicoWe can declare that the proportion of Zinc in Classico Titanium White 018 is moreless 50%."


Polyester/cellulose mix paper

Question asked 2019-07-24 11:52:07 ... Most recent comment 2019-07-27 14:39:09
Drawing Materials Flexible Supports Industrial and Non-Traditional Products

I have recently found blank rolls of wallpaper (160+ gsm), sold as a home decoration solution. They're made from a mix of polyester and cellulose fibers, and I was wondering about the feasibility of using that paper as a drawing/painting surface. Given the better aging properties of synthetic fibers, would the added polyester content increase the longevity of such paper, compared to pure cellulose papers? ​

binder

Question asked 2019-07-26 14:34:28 ... Most recent comment 2019-07-26 22:27:01
Grounds / Priming

​Caparol ( a german product ) is very useful for grounds ( mixed witjh chalk and lithopone )Is it available in America, somewhere?

Indian ink pitt pen drawing painted over with gouache

Question asked 2019-07-24 15:39:31 ... Most recent comment 2019-07-24 18:59:01
Gouache Ink Pen

​Hello dear people from Mitra!

I have a question about mixing materials.

I have asked already about compatibily of indian ink and gouache, and i know it is compatible and mixable, since i had answers from good people from your forum and i saw many old master artworks that were made precisely with these two techniques.

What worries me is, that i have used Indian Ink pitt pen and i did full ink drawing, with deep crosshathing and deep darks, so i did a lot lines with it. 

This was done on thick watercolor paper.

And i really wasnt happy with the end result, but saw the potential in the work, so i reworked or painted over the whole drawing with artists quality gouache (using black and white only).

The works looks good now, but i am intersted is it ok that i did this?Will my work be ok?

And if there are no mistakes visible now, and the work is one week old, does that mean that everything will be ok in future?


Thank you


Marko Karadjinovic

1st MURAL Opportunity- Questions on how to get started

Question asked 2019-06-29 11:28:19 ... Most recent comment 2019-07-22 20:16:13
Acrylic Mural Painting Handling and Transportation Rigid Supports Paint Making Pigments Grounds / Priming

Hello, I was wondering if someone might be able to help me.

I actually have 2 mural opportunities, but right now I'm trying to focus more on one over the other because it seems more 'involved.'

One piece is to be mounted outdoors.  The other piece is to be placed over doors- that is to say, I believe the intention is that it be painted directly on them.  I do not know the door material or their dimension- nor the dimensions of the outdoor mural- but I do know the doors will have to function.  The mural-side of the door is at the interior of the building, the other side is to the exterior, like a garage door. It's a metal roll-up door.

Materials:

I need to figure out exactly what I need to spend in order to complete each project.

I currently have:

  • Red Oak Plywood- Six 36in*36.5in pc.'s & 15 1Ft. sq. pc.'s all 3/4in. Thick
  • 10pack mini rollers for smooth-semi smooth surfaces - what should I use rollers for vs. brushes? Do I clean to re-use them or are they a single-use type of product?
  • 76mm angled Poly-blend bristle brush, for smooth & semi-smooth surfaces
  • 10 kit HDX Nitrile Disposable Gloves- 'not for use w/ chemicals'
    • Will these work w/ Varathane, GOLDEN Isolation Coat, & Primer?
  • KILZ 2 Latex Primer/sealer/stainblocker Multisurface (Drywall, masonry, galvanized, & more*) Interior/Exterior Water-based- re-coat in 1hour
  • Varathane Brand Ultimate SPAR URETHANE?, Oil-based, clear gloss- Recommends 3 coats & min 4hours dry time(sanding only if drying for 12+ hours) ==> notes cancer & reproductive harm as well as the need for adequate ventilation, but also the harm go humidity
    • Can I use this product outside?- where should I let it dry?

It has been recommended that I get:

  • sand paper. 200 grit- I would be hand sanding to remove splinters - specif. @ he edges where the wood was cut, but I'm assuming I'd have to do the entire board for the primer to adhere - so I'm wondering if there's a correct way to do this...

I think I need:

  • Goggles
  • Respirator
  • Coveralls 
  • Knee Pads
  • Mixing & Storage Containers
  • 1gal. Heavy Body Acrylic Paint-,at least 6 colors- including neutrals? (white, black, brown)
  • 1 Gal. Isolation Coat
  • 1 Gal. Solvent- for the Varathane?, I don't know the exact details of this product, but when I looked up polyurethane, it req.'d a solvent to be used
  • Mounting Hardware
  • Probably additional Painters Tape & Brushes

All 'clothing items' are for the Varnish & finish products- everything appears to be highly toxic, don't know if there are safer alternatives.

All amts were 'guess-timated' before the addition of the 2nd mural piece and it's different setting.

Process:

I am still trying to come up with some sketches to determine the overall composition, but I am wondering:

  • How can I go about choosing colors?- The room is full of very 'non-modern?' colors, very little blues, purples, or even oranges and the colors are very muddy and dark.  I would like to choose a period-appropriate color scheme but still add some brightness to the colors I choose and some naturalistic purples and blues that go with the theme of the piece.  I want to make sure I have a large variety of colors, but not purchase unnecessary colors I could just take the time to measure out and mix.
    • Example- If I have a largely white background, fo I need to purchase white paint, or can I just use the Primer? Do I tint the Primer to make other neutrals or do i need to use paint
  • How can I go about estimating and pre-mixing any batches of specific colors to work with?
  • Is it possible to follow and early-1900s 'recipe' for specific colors and get a somewhat accurate result using paints purchased today?

I'm thinking the wood panels would be used for the outdoor piece that would be on the side of a house and would not move.

Some or all of these panels may also need to be shipped... I'm thinking some of the smaller panels could be used to flank the large doors.  The large panels may have to be shipped with some kind of mounting instructions.

I currently trying to read through various MITRA posts, but these are the more pointed inquiries I can think of for myself...


Thank You

Old Holland Zinc white

Question asked 2019-07-20 19:05:21 ... Most recent comment 2019-07-21 21:47:30
Oil Paint

​The Old Holland safety data sheet for their zinc white oil paint lists alongside 70-90% zinc oxide.   3-5% titanium dioxide.  Which strikes me as an interestingly odd thing to do.  Would there be any advantage to adding such a small amount of titanium white to an otherwise pure zinc white paint?

Marc

Need for sealing under oil grounds over acrylic primer on hardboard?

Question asked 2019-07-20 12:26:50 ... Most recent comment 2019-07-20 20:45:10
Grounds / Priming

​Dear Moderators Please excuse my "test" question posted prior to this one. I've been having a lot of trouble with the question form. This is the 3rd time I've tried to post this question. I have primed a number of unsealed hardboard panels with 3 coats of acrylic primer and plan to follow up with 2 coats of lead primer. Should I have sealed the panels first eg with a PVA or acrylic resin emulsion? Looking forward to your responses. Kind regards, Jenny

Test

Question asked 2019-07-20 12:21:08 ... Most recent comment 2019-07-20 12:20:00
Grounds / Priming

​test

Sealing Graphite under Oil Paints

Question asked 2019-07-19 12:59:16 ... Most recent comment 2019-07-19 16:21:14
Oil Paint Other Paint Mediums Pencil Drawing Materials Ink Pen Studio Tools and Tips

​Hello MITRA folks...I would like to seal a graphite or India Ink line drawing on canvas or board that has been 'gessoed' with acrylic dispersion fluid. The drawing would then be painted over with oil paints, but some of the drawing linework may remain exposed in the final painting. I would like to know what my options are for sealing the linework that would be 'durable' if left exposed in the final, varnished image, but also a good bond with the subsequent oil paint in some areas. I'm thinking acrylic matte medium, but maybe there are other options...? Thank you for your thoughts!

Shaping brushes after washing.

Question asked 2019-07-07 20:15:27 ... Most recent comment 2019-07-16 22:28:29
Oil Paint Paint Additives Studio Tools and Tips

​As stated, I want to be able to wash brushes with soap and water, shape them with the help of some product, and use them in the morning without having to rinse them in sovent.
Candidate products so far are saliva, gum arabic, egg white, and maybe milk. I'm leaning toward gum arabic.

My question is, will any of these unduly affect the paint film if it is not washed out of the brush before using?

Ron Francis.

Traditional Gesso

Question asked 2019-07-11 10:26:10 ... Most recent comment 2019-07-11 16:00:49
Grounds / Priming

When I first became a tempera painter, I experimented with many different recipies for traditional gesso (gleaned from various books – there was no on-line world back then!).  I got both good and bad results (some gessoes developed cracks).  Eventually, after much reading and experimenting to better understand the properties of traditional gesso, I arrived at what seemed a solid recipe based on ratios versus specific measurements; it's always yielded a good, reliable surface, and I've heard from many artists with whom I've shared the recipe that they too use it with success. 

 

I've found that a mix of 1 part glue to 16 parts water, then 1 part of this glue water combined with approx. 1.5 parts chalk or gypsum, yields a not too soft, not too hard ground.  However there is some variability in the water to glue ratio – more glue in the mix yields a harder ground, less glue a softer ground. So an artist has flexibility in the recipe depending on what sort of ground he or she wants to work on.   On the other hand, in my experience, if one strays too far outside certain parameters in the water to glue ratio, the resulting ground is either too hard (anything beyond about 1 part glue to 12 parts water = too much glue in the ground) and is prone to cracks; or too soft (anything less than about 1 part glue to 20 parts water = too little binder) and the ground becomes friable.  

 

Recently I read a gesso recipe from a paint tech, whose knowledge I trust and respect, which recommends a ratio of 1 part glue to 5 parts water.  I was surprised by this number; it seems way too much glue to me, and in fact I have a panel made from this recipe that dramatically cracked (see attached image). Gesso Panel cracks.jpg   However the tech feels confident that a 1 glue to 5 water ratio is reasonable for gesso, and also has panels made from this recipe that haven't cracked.  (FYI, I understand that glue is not the only reason gesso can crack – changes in temps, humidity, wood grain telegraphing through, dropping a panel on its edge, etc. also can cause cracks…)

 

I've always felt pretty confident of my understanding of true gesso – that too much glue in the mix is problematic, and anything beyond about 1:12 or maybe 1:10 tops is too much glue – but now I'm wondering if there is more flexibility in the ratios for true gesso than I realized.  Any thoughts? I want to make sure I'm understanding gesso correctly. 

 

Thanks,  Koo Schadler 

Which side of Dibond panel?

Question asked 2019-07-01 13:25:14 ... Most recent comment 2019-07-08 02:20:41
Rigid Supports Acrylic

​Hi,

I am using Dibond panels for my acrylic paintings. I usually sandpaper the polyester coating and then clean it with isopropyl alcohol before applying some acrylic gesso on top of it... Both the panel sides are covered with a poyester coating. One side is glossy, the other is mate. Can I use any of them? Or is one of them better for adhesion? Thank you.

Best regards,


Thomas Ehretsmann

Adhering canvas to plywood wood panels

Question asked 2019-07-01 20:14:53 ... Most recent comment 2019-07-01 22:12:24
Rigid Supports

​A previous post discussed using shellac to seal engineered wood panels.  https://www.artcons.udel.edu/mitra/forums/question?QID=379   (Note: I'm not yet using the pigmented shellac recommended in the post above but will for future projects)  Anyway,  I have been gluing pre-primed canvas to cradled plywood.  I use 2 coats of undiluted shellac (as the manufacturer recommends)  to seal all sides of the panel and cradle.   I then used PVA glue to adhere the canvas.  I was just wondering if there were any potential issues with this approach such as poor adhesion of the glue to the shellac or future delamination of the shellac under the canvas?  Should I be diluting the shellac to increase absorption and ensure good tooth for adhesion?  

1st MURAL Opportunity- Questions on how to get started

Question asked 2019-06-29 11:19:03 ... Most recent comment 2019-06-29 11:13:00
Mural Painting Paint Making Grounds / Priming Handling and Transportation Rigid Supports

Hello, this is Martha Rose.  I was wondering if someone might be able to help me.

I actually have 2 mural opportunities, but right now I'm trying to focus more on one over the other because it seems more 'involved.'

One piece is to be mounted outdoors.  The other piece is to be placed over doors- that is to say, I believe the intention is that it be painted directly on them.  I do not know the door material or their dimension- nor the dimensions of the outdoor mural- but I do know the doors will have to function.  The mural-side of the door is at the interior of the building, the other side is to the exterior, like a garage door. It's a metal roll-up door.

Materials:

I need to figure out exactly what I need to spend in order to complete each project.

I currently have:

  • Red Oak Plywood- Six 36in*36.5in pc.'s & 15 1Ft. sq. pc.'s all 3/4in. Thick
  • 10pack mini rollers for smooth-semi smooth surfaces - what should I use rollers for vs. brushes? Do I clean to re-use them or are they a single-use type of product?
  • 76mm angled Poly-blend bristle brush, for smooth & semi-smooth surfaces
  • 10 kit HDX Nitrile Disposable Gloves- 'not for use w/ chemicals'
    • Will these work w/ Varathane, GOLDEN Isolation Coat, & Primer?
  • KILZ 2 Latex Primer/sealer/stainblocker Multisurface (Drywall, masonry, galvanized, & more*) Interior/Exterior Water-based- re-coat in 1hour
  • Varathane Brand Ultimate SPAR URETHANE?, Oil-based, clear gloss- Recommends 3 coats & min 4hours dry time(sanding only if drying for 12+ hours) ==> notes cancer & reproductive harm as well as the need for adequate ventilation, but also the harm go humidity
    • Can I use this product outside?- where should I let it dry?

It has been recommended that I get:

  • sand paper. 200 grit- I would be hand sanding to remove splinters - specif. @ he edges where the wood was cut, but I'm assuming I'd have to do the entire board for the primer to adhere - so I'm wondering if there's a correct way to do this...

I think I need:

  • Goggles
  • Respirator
  • Coveralls 
  • Knee Pads
  • Mixing & Storage Containers
  • 1gal. Heavy Body Acrylic Paint-,at least 6 colors- including neutrals? (white, black, brown)
  • 1 Gal. Isolation Coat
  • 1 Gal. Solvent- for the Varathane?, I don't know the exact details of this product, but when I looked up polyurethane, it req.'d a solvent to be used
  • Mounting Hardware
  • Probably additional Painters Tape & Brushes

All 'clothing items' are for the Varnish & finish products- everything appears to be highly toxic, don't know if there are safer alternatives.

All amts were 'guess-timated' before the addition of the 2nd mural piece and it's different setting.

Process:

I am still trying to come up with some sketches to determine the overall composition, but I am wondering:

  • How can I go about choosing colors?- The room is full of very 'non-modern?' colors, very little blues, purples, or even oranges and the colors are very muddy and dark.  I would like to choose a period-appropriate color scheme but still add some brightness to the colors I choose and some naturalistic purples and blues that go with the theme of the piece.  I want to make sure I have a large variety of colors, but not purchase unnecessary colors I could just take the time to measure out and mix.
    • Example- If I have a largely white background, fo I need to purchase white paint, or can I just use the Primer? Do I tint the Primer to make other neutrals or do i need to use paint
  • How can I go about estimating and pre-mixing any batches of specific colors to work with?
  • Is it possible to follow and early-1900s 'recipe' for specific colors and get a somewhat accurate result using paints purchased today?

I'm thinking the wood panels would be used for the outdoor piece that would be on the side of a house and would not move.

Some or all of these panels may also need to be shipped... I'm thinking some of the smaller panels could be used to flank the large doors.  The large panels may have to be shipped with some kind of mounting instructions.

I currently trying to read through various MITRA posts, but these are the more pointed inquiries I can think of for myself...

Thank You,

Martha Rose

Sennilier Gloss Varnish Problem

Question asked 2019-06-25 17:30:16 ... Most recent comment 2019-06-26 12:01:33
Varnishes

​After applying the Sennelier gloss varnish on well-cured, heavy impasto oil paintings, the varnish clouds and flakes off with the slightest of abrasion. It appears flawed. Why is it not bonding better to the paint? What causes this and how can I prevent it from happening? Is this a defective varnish that can be removed? How would I remove it?

Candle Wax Protectant

Question asked 2019-06-22 15:39:13 ... Most recent comment 2019-06-24 08:40:03
Technical Art History Other Studio Tools and Tips Varnishes

​Hi All,

I use candle wax for make art and have been using resin as a sealant. However, it is super shiny and thick. Any suggestions on what I could use to prevent damage and something that is Uber heat heat resistant? Thanks so much and be well! 

Casein and casein/oil tempera techniques around 1900

Question asked 2019-06-23 06:28:50 ... Most recent comment 2019-06-23 23:01:14
Casein

​Hello,

I am currently examinating a wall painting form 1901, that was very probably painted using  casein as a binder. Apparently this medium became popular for the use to paint on the wall with artists who usually painted on canvas. Why did it become popular again and what does its popularity has to do with the industrial revolution? Are there manuals and recipes from arts schools from the end of the 19th century known, that are describing this technique for monumental wall painting in Europe and the US?

Thank you very much, your help is appreciated!

Cold Wax Medium

Question asked 2019-06-22 09:09:03 ... Most recent comment 2019-06-23 22:28:55
Varnishes

How long does it take for an application of cold wax medium atop a finished painting to fully cure, so that a second layer of medium can be appplied on top without affecting the first?  Or does the underlying medium stay indefinitely somewhat soluble when a new layer of medium (with some percentage of solvent in it's formulation) is added on top?  Are cold wax mediums that are soluble in mineral spirits (such as Renaissance wax) stronger than those soluble in OMS (Gamblin's cold wax medium); i.e. is the fact that whatever resin in the medium is soluble in a stronger solvent mean it contains a stronger resin?  Thanks, Koo Schadler

Percentage of resin in grinding medium

Question asked 2019-06-20 15:23:33 ... Most recent comment 2019-06-20 15:19:00
Drying Oils

​Dear Mitra,

Although I know that it can be confirmed or denied that the old masters used resins in their mediums I wish to use a bit in mine. 

Whats a healthy amount of Dammar Varnish to put into ones medium? 



Chloreseptic

Question asked 2019-06-17 12:26:52 ... Most recent comment 2019-06-18 18:19:41
Grounds / Priming Pigments

​The main ingredient in Chloreseptic (an oral analgesic) is phenol, which can act as a preservative or biocide, from what I understand.  I don't know what else the product contains. What do you think about using Chloreseptic in either pigment pastes or gesso to inhibit mold growth?

Thanks,  

Koo Schadler

Are certian oils more fat than others ?

Question asked 2019-06-17 16:23:08 ... Most recent comment 2019-06-18 18:02:55
Drying Oils

​Dear Mitra,

It seems that everyone describes fat over lean as simply placing more oily layers over less oily layers.  But are certain oils in and of themselves more fatty than other ones if equal amounts are set out? For a example if I set out an equal amount of a polymerized linseed oil and refined linseed oil is one fattier than the other?  Since one was polymerized does this change its fat/lean state? 


Thank you,

Hector Hernandez



Dyed Canvas Question

Question asked 2019-06-18 14:21:00 ... Most recent comment 2019-06-18 17:20:07
Acrylic

​Hi,

I recently dyed canvas using acrylic paint. This is a process that I use fairly often. The canvas came out of the dye bath having a funny odor, I am wondering if you know of a solution to get rid of the smell, without messing up the canvas? Vinegar?


Making inkjest prints "archival quality"??

Question asked 2019-06-17 10:08:40 ... Most recent comment 2019-06-18 06:03:58
Art Conservation Topics Dyes Environment Ink Photo-Documentation / Digital Printing Pigments Varnishes

​I have studied the materials from Golden Paint regarding using thier MSA varnishes over inkjet prints for UV protection  and it appears that they provide significant protection against fading for dye and pigment based injet prints.

Can injet prints treated with these UV protective varnishes be sold as "archival quality prints"?  

Dammar resin in a painting medium

Question asked 2019-06-13 08:45:15 ... Most recent comment 2019-06-13 22:54:16
Paint Mediums

​ Hi! Is there a minimum amount of Dammar resin that can be safe as an ingredient in oil painting mediums?   It is well-known that large amounts are not acceptable. From my own experience I can say that nothing compares with mastic/dammar painting mediums when I produce/create the painting: blending, flowing, drying rate, tixothropy, etc... But in terms of conservation and durability the story is totally different.  For his recipe (the famous 1:1:5), Ralph Mayer calls for a 5-pound cut Dammar Varnish.  Do you think that 1 part Dammar Varnish in this recipe is excessive, moderate, acceptable? Can be reduce the amount of dammar varnish in this recipe to get an acceptable painting medium, in order to prevent yellowing, varnishing problems, cracking, etc...? Or the answer is simple: NEVER use! Thank you !

Clove Oil for slowing drying rate of oil paints

Question asked 2017-04-25 14:20:23 ... Most recent comment 2019-06-11 02:53:53
Paint Additives Oil Paint Paint Mediums Scientific Analysis Art Conservation Topics

I have a query regarding the section in the MITRA documentation on Solvents about Clove Oil for Oil painting:

"Essential Oil of Cloves or Clove Oil has been used as a preservative in emulsions and as an additive to mediums to substantially slow down their drying rate. There are far better preservatives available today. The use of clove oil as a drying retarder is greatly discouraged as its addition tends to substantially weaken the dried paint film.

Other Essential Oils and Extracts are also periodically used in art making. Oil of rosemary sometimes served as a substitute for clove oil and as a component in the creation of complex oil-hard resin mediums. Like clove oil, artists should forgo the use of these materials as their dangers far outweigh and perceived benefits."

I and many other painters I know use Clove Oil to extend the drying time and I have never read anything negative about using it before.

Please can you tell me what evidence led to the conclusion that clove oil weakened dried paint film.

What were the numbers for the control, clove and rosemary in the studies that were done?

Adhering fabric to plywood

Question asked 2019-06-06 09:57:17 ... Most recent comment 2019-06-06 14:39:31
Rigid Supports

​I've recently started adhering pre-primed canvas to cradled plywood rather than painting directly on the plywood. I seal the wood with shellac on all sides and then adhere the fabric with PVA glue. However, I have some leftover plywood panels from beforehand that I had prepared diffferently or started to use. All of the panels were sized with GAC100 and then either A) primed with oil primer but not used or B) primed with acrylci primer and then underpainted in oils. My question is whether in either of these cases it would be possible to glue fabric over the exiting structure.  I suspect the scenario A (the top layer is oil primer) would have enough tooth to provide emchancial adhesion but I'm less confident of the B scenario (the top layer is oil paint over gesso).  

Mixing Water Media

Question asked 2019-06-02 12:04:16 ... Most recent comment 2019-06-03 19:27:51
Acrylic Casein Egg Tempera Gouache Watercolor

To what degree can watercolor, gouache, casein, glue tempera, egg tempera and acrylic - all water media - be intermixed, or at least used to tint one another?


Koo Schadler

Acrylic, Oil painting Air Quality Comparisons

Question asked 2019-05-31 09:00:12 ... Most recent comment 2019-06-03 10:29:27
Oil Paint Studio Tools and Tips

​I wonder if there have been any studies comparing the air quality, when using acrylic paints versus oil paints without solvents. My oil painting class is treatened because of lack of ventilation.

Varnishing with a regalrez based varnish too soon.

Question asked 2019-05-19 21:24:29 ... Most recent comment 2019-05-31 18:12:24
Oil Paint Varnishes

​The general advice is to wait 6 - 12 months before varnishing an oil painting.
Specifically regarding regalrez based varnishes, Gamblin suggests that a painting can be varnished with Gamvar as soon as it is touch dry, which contradicts advice from George O'Hanlon and Virgil Elliot.

What I would like to know is, what are the consequences of varnishing too early with a regalrez based varnish?

Varnish suitable for both oil and acrylic

Question asked 2019-05-29 18:42:31 ... Most recent comment 2019-05-30 23:27:53
Acrylic Varnishes Oil Paint

​I often see artist wanting to leave raw canvas showing in their paiintings.
Recommendations for this are to use a GAC product from Golden, or a clear acrylic polymer as a barrier.

So if someone were to have a surface of both acrylic and oil, what varnish/s would you recommend that could be removed from both without damaging the paint?

George O'Hanlon recommended an isolating coat before the final varnish, but I imagine the isolating coat would eventually need to be removed as well at some point.

Ron Francis

Large amounts of oil for oil paints

Question asked 2019-05-28 02:23:33 ... Most recent comment 2019-05-29 11:15:19
Art Conservation Topics Drying Oils Oil Paint Paint Mediums Scientific Analysis Rigid Supports

Hello all,

I've done a couple of experimental paintings lately with a large amount of walnut oil added to tubed oil paints and mixed until the paint has the consistency of cream/thin yoghurt.

I have seen no wrinkling with the walnut oil (I expect there would be wrinkling with stand oil or plain linseed oil)

I am sure that the paint films will be less archival than using a minimum of oil, but if painted on a rigid (Dibond) surface would you expect that they would still last for decades, or fail within a few years?

One of the reasons I'm not sure is that I'm read that extenders and filler pigments like PW5 can make a paint film weaker, yet they are used a lot in student grade paints.

Thanks,
Richard

Polishing an egg tempera painting

Question asked 2019-05-08 17:19:48 ... Most recent comment 2019-05-24 23:03:02
Egg Tempera

Hello! and thank you for this wonderful forum!

Many ET painters find themselves painting smaller and smaller works but I am the opposite. My paintings tend to get larger and larger. I just completed an 8'x4' ET and it "only" took 2 years! Ordinarily I would polish my painting with a soft cloth: silk, flannel or T-shirt material has been recommended and I have not found much difference between them. Due to the large size, and some physical limitations, I am experimenting with power tools. I've tried a "polishing bonnet" attached to my corded electric drill but am interested in purchasing a dedicated buffer. A Dual Action Random Orbital Polisher  (DA) seems to be the safest option, in terms of not harming the surface,  but I don't want to invest in it unless I feel it will be more effective or safer than my drill buffer or hand polishing. The "bonnets" I am using now are what came with the conversion kit- one is lamb's wool and the other an unknown synthetic. If I get the DA there seem to be endless options in polishing pads. Of course they are meant for automotive polishing. I love traditional methods/ materials but am not one to scoff at high tech improvements. Perhaps the old saw about ET developing a gentle egg shell gloss will be proven a myth once more effective polishers are employed and a higher gloss will be achieved (not that I necessariy want that.) Obviously if I see any paint on my bonnet I'll know the machine is too aggressive or the paint surface inadequately polymerized. So far I have tried it on the edges of my monster ET panel and no paint has come up, nor have I achieved any more shine than with elbow grease. Hoping you might have some experience with this. Perhaps conservators use electric buffers with a variety of pads? If not my path would be clear: buy the DA and try different pads on castaway paintings or trial paintings and see what the effect is. Thanks much for your great work!

Lora Arbrador

CPVC in Tempera

Question asked 2019-05-14 10:42:38 ... Most recent comment 2019-05-22 08:49:15
Egg Tempera

My experience has been that a well-tempered egg tempera paint (good handling properties, consistent shine, etc.) has a CPVC of about equal parts yolk to pigment.  I've always puzzled at the greater variability, at times, of pigment to binder ratios in oil versus in tempera, which has much less variability in that regard - almost all colors temper well at equal parts yolk and pigment, with just a few minor variations (some lean, thirsty earth colors, like burnt umber and sienna, need a wee bit more yolk; fatter viridian needs a tiny bit less).  One would think that whatever variabilities in pigment to binder ratio exist in oil would transfer to tempera - but they seemingly don't. 

And while I've heard the terms "fat" and "lean" used to describe a pigment's need for more or less binder, what acutally determines if a color is fat or lean (and, back to my original question, why does that need seem to vary from one medium to another)?


Thanks,

Koo Schadler

Egg Tempera as Metalpoint Ground

Question asked 2019-05-14 10:10:46 ... Most recent comment 2019-05-20 10:55:33
Grounds / Priming Egg Tempera Drawing Materials

​Hello MITRA,

I've been playing with egg tempera as a ground for metalpoint.  If layered thinnly and allowed to cure egg tempera is, like casein, a good ground (due to its PVC); yet I rarely see tempera mentioned as a metalpoint ground.  Any thoughts?

Also, is egg tempera as vulnerble to hydrolysis as oil paints?  

Thanks,

Koo Schadler

oil painting in the aeroplane

Question asked 2019-05-15 14:04:02 ... Most recent comment 2019-05-17 10:47:12
Handling and Transportation

​Dear Mitra,

i was comissioned an oil painting that I will have to take with me from Europe to South America. This means at least two changes of airplane and a 13 hr long flight in between. The painting will be 90x100 cm. As it will be newly made and flexible when we fly, i assume there will be no problems with rolling it, as far as done correctly. I wonder if there is a save way of bringing a painting in an aeroplane, a way of packing it where it can be sent safely it with the checked baggage. Advice and tips will be much apreciated. 

Thank you!

Camila


Using a marble stone as a palette

Question asked 2019-05-11 21:28:28 ... Most recent comment 2019-05-13 10:47:19
Oil Paint

Before using a marble stone as a studio palette ( 16 x 22 inches), I wanted to check with you for any special preparatory treatments that may be required for the marble surface prior to oil painting.

I believe the marble top is older (resale store bargain purchase)  and possibly one made from a combination of marble powder and stones.

Your suggestions and ideas are always helpful.

Patrick

WMO Oil paints and traditional oil paints

Question asked 2019-05-08 15:13:08 ... Most recent comment 2019-05-10 20:24:06
Oil Paint Solvents and Thinners

Hi all,

If I do a layer of a painting with WMO oil paints mixed with water as a solvent, and then I paint over the top with traditional oil paints (because of more pigment choices, etc..) will this cause an issue? Would the water remain trapped in the WMO paint layer, or will it evaporate through the traditional oil paint layer?

I have read that it takes a lot longer for all the water to actually evaporate out when using acrylics, so is the same the case for oil paints?

Are you aware of any issues with paintings done in a mix of WMO and normal oils in this manner?

Thank you,
Richard

Traditional drying oil - hard resin varnishes

Question asked 2019-05-05 15:19:41 ... Most recent comment 2019-05-09 19:13:48
Drying Oils Scientific Analysis Solvents and Thinners Varnishes Art Conservation Topics

Dear experts! I have several questions about traditional sandarac and copal drying oil-resin varnishes.

1. In various articles I encounter mentions of good preservation of such varnishes after hundreds of years, for example, in case of paintings by Carlo Crivelli or Orazio Gentileschi. Are those cases just coincidental exceptions or drying oil-hard resin varnishes age better than their cousins made with oil and colophony, larch balsam or mastic?

2. Is it absolutely necessary to heat sandarac or copal resins in oil to make a good varnish? Or maybe I could use an intermediate solvent to avoid extensive thermal treatment?

3. Could I use modern zirconium-calcium octoate drier additions instead of traditional lead linoleate? How much worse are such driers than lead-based ones in the long term?

4. How important is to use fresh Cypress or Juniper sap instead of dried and oxidised resin which is always sold in art supplies stores? In Da Vinci’s recipe use of fresh sap in spring is recommended.

5. Could I enhance ageing performance of such varnishes by adding Tinuvin 292 and 1130? Or maybe using other modern additives?

6. I’ve heard that new methods of old varnish removal gain popularity, such as laser ablation. Could I rely on such technologies for future conservation efforts of my paintings or I should care about varnish solubility and use Regalrez 1094 with Tinuvin 292 because they remain soluble despite their not so good appearance, scratch resistance and necessity to wait one year before varnishing?

Thank you.

imprimatura

Question asked 2019-05-07 12:28:08 ... Most recent comment 2019-05-09 12:38:12
Oil Paint

Hi, 

I'm having problems with underbound imprimatura since I upgraded to artist quality oils. I guess part of the "problem" is the higher pigmentation of my new oils. I can't seem to achieve a bound yet semi transparent layer of paint. I'm diluting burnt umber with mineral spirits. I've recently had the same problem with an opaque venetian red ground I layed out on another canvas. In that case I oiled out the entire canvas. I tried to do the same with the raw umber imprimatura, but in rubbing the oil I ended with a brown surface and my underlaying drawing completly lost.

Am I using to much solvent? How can I achieve a semi transparent imprimatura that is bound enough?

Thank you for your valuable advice!

Camila

Varnish or fixative for Prismacolor, and graphite

Question asked 2019-05-07 15:00:49 ... Most recent comment 2019-05-08 07:38:45
Pencil Varnishes Other Art Conservation Topics

I am doing large scale drawings/rubbings using prismacolor sticks in some and graphite in others. These are too large to frame -- some will never be covered (and will be rolled to ship and stored with glassine over top), others will be covered with a sheet of Plexi (offset from the surface)

I will break this into a two part question:

1) Prismacolor: I am concerned about lightfastness and wondered if there is a suitable spray or brushable varnish that can provide UV protection for the Prismacolor. I am only using the Level 1 and 2 lightfast colors. (If there is a better quality color pencil in stick form--please let me know. I have not been able to find much information)

2) Graphite: final fixative that will protect if the drawing is rolled or brushed against since there may not be any plexiglass?

Thanks very much.

rabbit skin glue

Question asked 2019-05-03 15:17:17 ... Most recent comment 2019-05-07 12:34:10
Animal Glue

​Hi, I just read somewhere that rabbit skin glue only smells when it has gone bad... Is this true? I had never heard it before, assumed the smell was normal. Now I worry that the glue I just sized some canvases with is bad.

Effects of ageing and conservation efforts on Renaissance egg tempera paintings

Question asked 2019-05-01 04:45:56 ... Most recent comment 2019-05-03 14:02:17
Art Conservation Topics Egg Tempera Scientific Analysis Oil Paint

Dear experts! I am an amateur painter interested in other’s works. When I look at portraits by Botticelli, I do not understand what do I see. My guess is that nowadays his paintings are very different from what was intended. So, I have several questions. For example, let’s consider his Portrait of a Young Man (Washington). 

1. What do I see at the edges of paint flakes divided by craquelure? I think that when the ground layer cracked, separate flakes slightly curved and their edges raised. Next, paint near edges of flakes was abraded during handling and cleaning of the painting, upper layers of paint were stripped. So at the edges near minuscule cracks I see lower paint layers. Is this correct?

2. How transitions between light and dark parts of the face were applied, particularly at the nose and cheek? I see darker spots of paint without clearly defined edges. They appear to be spatially oriented as if they are parts of longer brush strokes. What causes this interrupted appearance? Are they a result of paint abrasion? Or his panel was grounded with some texture and we see an effect similar to watercolour granulation on rough paper?

3. Opening the image in GIMP and using a CIELch colour picker reveals complex variations of hues, particularly at skin areas. How such variability was achieved? In my understanding of egg tempera technique, a painter mixes pigments in raw state, grinds them on a stone with binder and puts resulting paints in dishes. Without mixing on a palette since tempera dries fast. I have several guesses, but what is correct? Perhaps, many pigment mixtures were composed in raw state? Or he composed just a few pigment mixtures and applied them in several very thin layers of varying density? Or he used tempera grassa which dries slower and mixed it on a palette like oil paints? Or the painting was heavily overpainted during many conservation efforts and we see a result of using slightly different pigment mixtures by restorers? This is certainly the case near some major cracks and scratches, but to what extent other areas are overpainted? 

4. Is there a darker layer of paint under light areas of the skin? Or lighter parts were painted straight on a white ground with some sketch made with dark coloured lines? I guess I see darker underlayer in a lower left corner of his neck near the fur collar.

5. What happened with some hairs of the left eyebrow (model’s right eyebrow)? I see crisp lines of dark coloured paint but a couple of lines are very dim. Were they abraded? Or they are parts of preliminary drawing covered by subsequent paint layers?

6. The overall skin color is very yellow, about 1/3 more yellow than a real skin color of a Caucasian man could potentially be - I am judging by CIELab colour coordinates and limits given in an article by A. Chardon «Skin colour typology and suntanning pathways». I wonder is this a result of binder or varnish yellowing? Or an artistic choice to make it look more saturated?

7. The color of his fancy hat is puzzling. Too orange for an ordinary cinnabar. I guess its color is an effect of particle size - somewhere I’ve heard that very finely ground cinnabar turns almost to carrot-orange. Or is it a result of fine glaze applied atop of cinnabar? Or another pigment was used too, like realgar or orpiment? 

I would be grateful if you’ll share your opinions and point me towards research papers to read. Thank you.

Safety

Question asked 2019-04-26 20:41:17 ... Most recent comment 2019-05-02 10:21:09
Egg Tempera Health and Safety

Hello everyone. I have a question concerning  health issues as I am going to begin doing egg tempera.  Seeing that we handle pigments I think it is preferable to wear a protection mask so as not to breathe or inhale the toxicity of the pigment. Could you give me some advice on that I can anticipate? Thank you.

Minor warping of Baltic Birch plywood with traditional RSG gesso.

Question asked 2019-05-01 09:37:26 ... Most recent comment 2019-05-01 12:33:35
Animal Glue Egg Tempera Rigid Supports Grounds / Priming

Another panel question!

 I recently purchased a 5'x5' sheet of ¾" Baltic birch plywood and cut into 30"x30" pieces for use as panels.

For two of these pieces:

I applied a coat of RSG size, muslin adhered with RSG, and 8 layers of traditional gesso on BOTH SIDES of the panel. Save my application of cloth to both sides of the panel, my method generally followed instructions for gessoing detailed in Daniel V Thompson and Koo Schadler books. About 3 days of drying and the panels have warped a small amount in one direction. If I set a rigid rule from edge to edge of the panel, I can see about 1.5-2mm space between the center of the panel and the rule. Hanging the panel on the wall, the warp is barely noticeable, but I wonder, is this evidence of even greater instability of my panels in the near future? Or, if I'm willing to accept the current warp, could I paint them (with egg tempera), shellac the back, with any confidence?

I've had extremely bad luck workign on plywood and also custom made panels in terms of warping at the gesso stage at this scale of 30"+

Still learning a lot from this forum, thank you,

eli

Adhering Paper to Aluminum Sheet

Question asked 2019-04-23 13:27:58 ... Most recent comment 2019-04-27 19:46:22
Rigid Supports

​I would like to adhere a 30 x 44" sheet of  paper to a 1/4" sheet of aluminum 31" x 45" so that I can achieve a 1/2" aluminum border around the paper that will have  a machine-routed, 'mirror-finished' polished edge, similar to a glass beveled edge. I was told by Talas Conservation Materials that Bevo 371 drymount film would be the best canidate for a hot press, given its low temperature adherance rating at 150 degrees farenheit, and therefore not warping the sheet metal in the heat press. I am not certain how to prepare the main body of aluminum underneath the paper ...questioning if the metal will oxidize the paper sometime down the road or if it will remain relatively stable in typical gallery/museum envirnoments? I have found nothing negative attibutable to oxidation of aluminum as a rigid mounting surface that might affect the paper. So I am actually seeking best advice on mounting the paper to raw aluminum sheet given the use of the Bevo 371 film by itself. The aluminum is typically what I would purchase from an industrial supplier of  1/4" sheet aluminum. Can you help?

--Doug

Using only oil as medium

Question asked 2018-01-31 18:43:27 ... Most recent comment 2019-04-25 08:30:27
Oil Paint

Is the practice of using only oil - without any solvent - sound? Presuming I don't use an excessive amount of oil (meaning, one that would create a layer of its own, separate from the paint), would the produced paintings be technically sound, from a conservation standpoint?

Assuming that this is the case, is there any sound way to speed up the drying time without toxic chemicals (siccatives etc.)?

alkyd oil ground

Question asked 2019-04-23 04:32:22 ... Most recent comment 2019-04-24 17:05:26
Alkyd Animal Glue Flexible Supports Grounds / Priming Oil Paint

​Dear MITRA team,

I've read through a lot of the existing threads but I do still have some question on the sizing/priming of flexible supports. 

Regarding rabbit skin glue, I understand that most artists have decided against it's use by now. But I would still like to know if conservationists unanimously advice against the use of RSG on flexible supports (like they have done with, for instance, the use of Zinc Oxide) or if it is more a matter of preference and which risks one might be willing to take with the material. I'm also not so clear on how do disadvantages of using RSG compare those of using PVA glue or acrylic size. I do understand the problems with cracking, but I'm still interested in using RSG for stiffness. I have to say, another reasons for me considering it is somewhat romantic. I like the idea of using a material that has been used and regarded as the best option for centuries. I'm aware of the faultiness of this logic though. So, please help! 

My second question would be is it would be ok to use an alkyd based ground (I'm thinking titanium white, marble dust or similar, alkyd binder and maybe some oil) on top of the RSG or PVA, and under oil painting. I would do this mainly for time convenience (drying time). I wonder if succesive coats of oil would adhere well to the alkyd ground, that results quite glossy. 

Finally, I would like to know how many coats of glue and how many of ground you would recomend for best results on flexible support. 

Thank you so much for your great work! 

Camila

Tradition Gesso to Fiberglass

Question asked 2019-04-21 15:07:33 ... Most recent comment 2019-04-22 23:13:52
Animal Glue Rigid Supports Sizes and Adhesives Art Conservation Topics Egg Tempera

​One more panel and traditional gesso question:
I was recently given a sample of honeycomb aluminum faced with fiberglass. I applied 4 coats of traditional gesso and after a week of dry time did a cross-hatch adhesion test. The adhesion seemed good. Anyone have experience with these materials? I don't know how fiberglass registers wil best practices but it seems like a potential solution for egg tempera paintings at a larger scale. Thanks in advance! - eli

Adhering Muslin or Linen to ACM for use with Traditional Gesso and Egg Tempera

Question asked 2019-04-21 12:03:40 ... Most recent comment 2019-04-22 17:46:37
Animal Glue Acrylic Art Conservation Topics Egg Tempera Grounds / Priming Rigid Supports Sizes and Adhesives

I'm looking for more panel advice, in this case to adhere Muslin or Linen to Aluminum Coposite Material. In my case Honeycomb aluminum for use with traditional gesso and egg tempera. I've heard BEVA works well but I hope to use at a scale of 30"x30" to 50"x50" and I don't have a heat press. Any thoughts? Or PVA could work: I've used Gamblin PVA to size linen in the past but that seems too watery for adhereing cloth to the ACM. Is there a good PVA Gel or glue? Finally, I've used Acrylic gel medium to glue paper to wood panels, could Acrylic gel adhere cloth to ACM? Thank you! - Eli

A Composite Surface Made from Joined Pieces of Linen

Question asked 2019-04-19 16:42:13 ... Most recent comment 2019-04-21 00:47:28
Flexible Supports

​Hello, 

I am researching ways to sew together individual pieces of linen (like a patchwork quilt) to be stretched over a rectangular stretcher. Eventually, I would like to do this at a very large scale, but for the moment I am just making studies. I am currently working with Claessens oil primed linen #13, which I have on hand. I wrote to Claessens to inquire about the weight of the thread they use in weaving this particular product, and they said it was nm 40. I have ordered a linen thread that is two-ply and advertised as 40 (though I wonder if there might be a difference because I am purchasing it in the US and we don't use metric?). My thinking is that matching the thread weight/strength as best I can will help keep the seams from slowly destroying the linen squares under tension over time. A friend suggested that using a sewing machine will help keep the seams even, and thus will spread the tension more evenly across the matrix than a hand-stitched textile surface would.  

I wonder if anyone on this forum has suggestions for me (aside from the obvious "don't do this," lol!) Do you think linen is a good choice? The person I corresponded with from Claessens suggested that a synthetic fiber might be best. Linen has historical resonance that I appreciate, and it is strong, but I'd be willing to work with polyester if that seems more adapted to my purpose. I work in oil paint and use a simple gamsol/linseed oil medium. Do you think the Claessens pre-primed oil primed linen is a reasonable choice here, or do any of you think I would be better off with a different sort of priming under my paint layer? (Ideally I would like to paint on it and then cut it up and sew it together, not sew it and prime the resulting matrix as one surface). It seemed to me that a commercially made product would be likely to be more consistent than something I primed myself. If there is anyone out there who knows about large-scale textile display (quilts and rugs and the like) are there technologies I should consider for supporting this textile painting-quilt hybrid from the back? Any references you could give me would be much appreciated! 

Thank you!

Krista Schoening

Painter

Using newsprint in mixed media work.

Question asked 2019-04-17 02:52:27 ... Most recent comment 2019-04-21 00:38:57
Other

I make mixed media work with a lot of paper elements, mostly drawing papers which I paint watercolor. However, I also use newsprint which I glue onto areas of acrylic paint and rub some of it away, and then paint that in watercolor. It bothers me knowing that newsprint yellows over time, and although changes to my work and the watercolor paint I later paint this paper has not had any color shift, ​I would like to chose a better alternative. I need a paper that is thin, short fibered, that can absorbed water-based paint. Nothing caught my attention at the art supply store, except for layout bond.

Generally I seal these areas using a product called Polycrylic.

Using heat to remove dents in stretched canvases

Question asked 2019-04-19 18:28:43 ... Most recent comment 2019-04-19 19:38:09
Drying Oils Flexible Supports Oil Paint

​Regarding an oil painting on stretched canvas, I have heard a suggestion that one can use an iron on a low heat on the reverse side to flatten dents or folds.
Elsewhere, it was said that heat will damage oil paint.
I'm pretty sure that I have read that applying heat is an acceptible technique from a qualified source, but can't remember where.

Csn you please give you views on this.
(Assume that the paint layer is thin, flat and smooth.)

Canvas Stretching and Desirable Tension of Canvas

Question asked 2019-04-19 15:48:06 ... Most recent comment 2019-04-19 19:32:31
Oil Paint

How much tension should be placed on the canvas when stretched over wood bars and is it necessary to secure the stretcher bars together prior to stretching the canvas?

 

My reason for asking is prompted by my method of stretching the canvas. I use a Fredrix style 22 cotton canvas that is unprimed at 7 oz. and primed at 11.5 oz. , plus an additional four coats of quality Gesso is applied to the stretched canvas.

Tightness of the canvas allows for a "hollow" sound when thumbing the face side and there is some slight tension pull shown at most staples.

Will the canvas tension impact the oils after several years?

Is it advisable to secure the corners of the stretching bars or let the canvas maintain a good corner square? I have personally seen both methods used and am concerned if there is an advantage over one method.

Patrick McGuire

Regarding Best Ratio for using Zinc White/Titanium White Combination

Question asked 2019-04-16 15:06:51 ... Most recent comment 2019-04-19 15:48:58
Oil Paint

Several authors have recommended using a combination of Zinc White and Titanium White for use in landscape paintings especially for imagery of clouds; ratios of varying amounts including one part Titanium to 3 parts Zinc White. Book sources ranged from 1974 up to the present and written by established painters.

I have personally used one product that offers a premade mixture of the two whites. However, I would greatly like to learn of using various ratios of Zinc White combined with Titanium White to achieve sky and tinting effects in landscape paintings along with the potential risk of Zinc White having a possible long term change.

Your ideas and suggestions are appreciated.

 

Patrick McGuire

Tucson, AZ

Adhering Copper to Panel for Oil Paint

Question asked 2019-04-17 11:10:17 ... Most recent comment 2019-04-17 11:55:14
Grounds / Priming Sizes and Adhesives Rigid Supports Oil Paint

​I would like to adhere 3 ml - 5ml copper sheets to a panel surface to paint. What is the best practice for adhering copper this thick to panel? Is a different thickness recommended? Also, what is the best practice for preparing the copper to receive oil paint?  

Layering different water-based media

Question asked 2019-04-16 19:06:16 ... Most recent comment 2019-04-17 11:46:13
Acrylic Gouache Ink Watercolor

From a conservation point of view, would it be a problem to layer acrylics, gouache, watercolors, inks, etc. over each other? For example, would a layer sandwich of:

  1. Watercolor
  2. Acrylic
  3. Gouache
  4. Acrylic

(or some other combination) be a problem? I'd imagine that, once dry, the acrylic layers would keep everything below set.

ACM - RSG gesso - will it stick?

Question asked 2019-04-16 22:45:10 ... Most recent comment 2019-04-17 10:14:17
Animal Glue Egg Tempera Grounds / Priming Sizes and Adhesives Rigid Supports

Does traditional RSG gesso adhere well to anything besides wood? I'm struggling to find a good solution for egg tempera painting at somewhat larger than traditional scales, about 30" square. I've had very mixed results in terms of warping panels when applying traditional gesso to high grade plywood of various thicknesses (both cradled and not) at a scale of about 30" square. I adhere a layer of cotton muslin to the face of plywood panels, also with RSG, to avoid checking, and also gesso both sides of the panels. My new fantasy is that if there really are adhesion issues with RSG gesso to materials like aluminum, fiberglass, etc what if linen or other fabric was glued to one of these materials?  The fabric could enjoy an industrial bond or a BEVA bond to the ACM or whatever kind of stable support and then the traditional gesso could enjoy a bond to the openness of the fabric… thoughts? (I've found one fine art manufacturer who suggests the surface of their ACM panels will take hide glue just fine, even without the interlayer of fabric, but they don't sell panels at a scale large enough for my purposes.) Thank you for thinking about this with me!​

Sealing Wood Panels with Shellac for egg tempera painting (Will RSG adhere to shellac?)

Question asked 2019-03-15 13:06:25 ... Most recent comment 2019-04-17 02:58:48
Egg Tempera Rigid Supports Grounds / Priming

I have two questions regarding my particular case of preparing cradled plywood panels for egg tempera painting

1. Will traditional RSG and/or RSG gesso adhere to a panel that has been sprayed or brushed with Shellac?

2. Is it reasonable to seal a plywood panel with Shellac to keep moisture out and then use that panel with traditional RSG and/or gesso? From my research and experience it is common to simply size wooden panels with RSG first, and then continue to apply RSG gesso. However given the hygroscopic nature of both the wood and RSG, wouldn't sealing with Shellac first at least help reduce movement and other problems caused by moisture? The panel manufacturers I have been talking to in New York certainly encourage sealing panels with Shellac but the majority of their customers are working with acrylic and oils, not traditional gesso and egg tempera. What do you think?

Thank you, I love this forum btw!

Eli

Eli Bornowsky

Acrylic Isolation Coat

Question asked 2019-01-29 18:43:38 ... Most recent comment 2019-04-17 02:43:56
Acrylic

The only recommendation I have ever found for what to use as an isolation coat is a mixture of water and Golden soft gel gloss. Are there other products that make a good isolation coat, with or without mixing with water? I am interested in a brushed, not sprayed, application.

Flashe paint preservation in the jar

Question asked 2019-04-14 09:08:29 ... Most recent comment 2019-04-16 18:53:12
Other

​I have many colors of Lefranc & Bourgeois Flashe vinyl paint, and am not using them quickly. I've noticed that they tend to harden in the jar, though I'm careful to keep the jar threads and lids clean and screwed on tight. I don't want to add water and potentially create mold, and am wondering if anyone knows a good vehicle to thin this paint and keep it usable longer.

Question regarding a Final Oiling Out and Temperature Effects on oil

Question asked 2019-04-16 11:07:04 ... Most recent comment 2019-04-16 14:23:04
Oil Paint

An observation was made on two types of finished oil paintings: stretched canvas and canvas panel on paper hardboard, that reveal some type of impact heat may have on the thin layer of walnut oil rubbed over the final painting before varnishing.

After the first week of drying time, a nice oily shine appeared on the canvas. At the end of the third week under much higher temperatures (85 to 100 degrees F ), the surface now showed a visible dry and flat appearance as if no walnut oil was applied.

Each painting used a quality canvas, received four (4) additional coats of gesso and quality oil paints were used.

Did heat change the appearance of the walnut oil and it remains on the surface, but not in a shinny wet appearance?

Did the heat evaporate the walnut oil product?

Did the higher temperatures allow for the oil to be absorbed into the painting, requiring additional coats of walnut oil prior to the application of varnish?

Your thought would be most appreciated!

Patrick McGuire

Tucson, AZ

Oil Paint over Acrylic Molding Paste

Question asked 2019-04-13 17:03:52 ... Most recent comment 2019-04-15 11:04:41
Oil Paint Paint Mediums

​Hello,

I want to start exploring impasto techniques and more sculptural techniques with oil paint, and I'm trying to learn the best ways to do that without my painting falling apart. I like to paint on wooden panels so I was wondering if I could use a product like Golden's molding paste to build up a texture, and then paint over it? What steps would I need to take to do this properly? My current plan would be to size the panel with GAC 100 x2 layers, then 2 layers of acrylic gesso, then the molding paste on top. Does the type of molding paste I choose matter?

I also bought an impasto medium from W&N to try out, but thick oil paint layers can take a while to dry which is why I wanted to explore other options. I don't want a case where my paint never dries properly.

Intermixing Acrylic Paint

Question asked 2019-04-12 15:27:11 ... Most recent comment 2019-04-13 07:22:00

​What are the risks of intermixing brands of acrylic paint; for example, a jar of Liquitex white tinted with a color from Golden or Dick Blick?


Thanks,


Koo Schadler

Dibond Vs Plywood panel

Question asked 2019-04-10 10:18:39 ... Most recent comment 2019-04-10 11:54:08
Acrylic Art Conservation Topics Rigid Supports

​Hi,

I usually paint small and use either dibond or plywood panels. I am about to start a larger piece (in acrylics): 60x100cm and I wonder which support should be better. Dibond is lighter but isn't it more fragile and ready to bend? Heavy outdoor plywood is obviously very heavy but looks stronger to me. What do you think? Thank you.

Best regards,

Thomas Ehretsmann (France)

imprimatura

Question asked 2019-04-08 15:36:08 ... Most recent comment 2019-04-08 18:24:48

​I am writing about imprimatura and have 2 questions.

Can an imprimatura tone a ground ANDan underdrawing or should it read ground OR underdrawing?

I know that an imprimatura can be a translucent glaze of paint, can it also be a colored size or colored varnish?

Gilding on Paper

Question asked 2019-04-03 15:16:04 ... Most recent comment 2019-04-04 12:54:12
Gilding

​What is the best practice for gilding on paper? 

Waterbased varnish for oil

Question asked 2019-04-01 15:34:25 ... Most recent comment 2019-04-01 23:01:09
Acrylic Drying Oils Varnishes Oil Paint

​Hi,

I have recently come across a waterbased varnish (Acrylic resin 80%; stabilisers - according to the manufacturer's website) that is recommended as a product for varnishing oil or acrylic paintings. I have never seen a waterbased acrylic dispersion varnish recommended for use on oil paintings before.

I am curious as to your viewpoints on this. Specifically regarding adhesion and ease of removal.

Many thanks.

Spray applying Gamvar matte varnish

Question asked 2019-03-25 22:39:44 ... Most recent comment 2019-03-31 21:14:25
Varnishes Oil Paint

​Hello all,

I have been experimenting with Gamvar matte varnish to even out the alternatly dull and shiny areas in my oil paintings, which have large flields of flat color over a smooth surface. The brushstrokes from the varnish application are showing up when the varnish dries and it's distracting to the work. I understand that matte Gamvar is the trickiest to apply and am experimenting with different techniques. In the meantime, I asked a Gamlin product specialist on the phone about spray-applying the matte Gamvar, which they said required a proper respirator and ventilation, but is a common practice for conservators. Has anyone attempted this and can you offer tips before I give it a try? Would this require an air compressor, or can I use a Preval sprayer? Finally, is there a company or conservator anyone can reccomend in NYC that I might be able to hire to do this for me? I reached out to some prominent NYC art materials and finishing companies but so far am coming up dry. Thank you in advance!

-Aliza

Metalpoint Fixative

Question asked 2019-03-29 11:52:21 ... Most recent comment 2019-03-31 19:41:30
Drawing Materials Varnishes

I want to explore the idea of applying fixative or varnish to a metalpoint drawing.  My reasons are:

1.  I combine metalpoint with fairly developed egg tempera painting on panel (see attached as an example: metalpoint lettering & egg tempera rabbit on Golden black gesso); the work, to me, appears too "removed" from the viewer when framed under glass - so I'm looking for a way to frame without glass that will nevertheless give some protection to the surface; i.e. a light spray coating of B-72, followed by a wax medium.

2. In my metalpoint experiments (described in an earlier MITRA post) some metals and grounds, when exposed to a lot of sulfur, faded or completely vanished.  I understand the lesson: trying too rapidly to speed up tarnishing can be detrimental to a drawing. However, it also points to the potential vulnerability of metalpoint lines; the insecurity of their attachment to a support.  I realize there are many centuries-old metalpoint drawings in good shape, so I don't mean to say it's not a durable medium; only that it also has the potential to not hold up well. Additionally, I've heard two artists comment that drawings on "Plike" paper tend to "fade" or lose their metalmarks, but many metalpoint artists love working on Plike.  Would a fixative be a good idea for those people who opt for the convenience of a pre-made, less-than-ideal metalpoint paper?  

I understand that a fixative (depending on how sealing or heavily applied) may slow or completely stop the tarnishing effect, but what if an artist doesn't mind or actually wants to deter tarnishing?   Would a light coating of fixative still allow for tarnishing?  

In short, if fixatives are suitable for other forms of drawing, are they suitable for metalpoint as well?  

Tho' I'm interested in subjective preferences, I primarily want to hear the objective, technical pros and cons.

Thanks,

Koo  

Exposed White or Clear Gesso

Question asked 2019-03-29 17:49:06 ... Most recent comment 2019-03-30 17:58:20
Varnishes Oil Paint Grounds / Priming

​​Is there any technical reason why it would NOT be a good idea to leave parts of a white acrylic dispersion (gesso) or clear matte acrylic dispersion (matte medium) ground exposed in the final painting, which would ultimately be varnished? This would be oil painting. I'm also wondering if a varnish, i.e. Galkyd, would look different over the oil paint areas vs the exposed gesso areas. Thank you for any thoughts.

Polyester Canvas

Question asked 2019-03-24 17:53:34 ... Most recent comment 2019-03-25 16:40:35
Flexible Supports Oil Paint Art Conservation Topics

​Apart from possible aesthetic considerations, a polyester canvas would seem a more ideal flexible support than linen or cotton, at least in longevity.  Less reactive to humidity, embrittlement and bacterial attack, it would appear almost perfect.  

Except, what about heat?  What damage would occur should some future person try to iron it down to another support?   Would the polyester reach a temperature likely to cause damage in a way that say, linen wouldn't be in a similar procedure?  When using a polyester canvas should we make sure that we find some form of pre heat shrunk material?  Is this even available, or is it something already standard in polyester artist canvases?

Checking wood

Question asked 2019-03-25 11:33:22 ... Most recent comment 2019-03-25 13:31:03
Acrylic

​Hello! I've an acryllic painting on a piece of  1 inch standard plywood (smooth on top) that is beginning to check. The wood was sanded, then a primer was put on top, and then the acryllic paint was applied. The painting was begun in December 2018. Is there a way to prevent or stop the checking with the painting already done?

Tacks or staples?

Question asked 2019-03-24 17:21:16 ... Most recent comment 2019-03-24 19:53:39
Flexible Supports

​Are either considered to be more ideal in stretching canvas?

I've used both and find the tacks to be a little more adjustable.  That is to say I can more easily remove and reposition them.  Though one wonders about the impact shock from hitting them in.  On the other hand the staples also seem to go in with quite a "bang".   Not much of a concern with a yet to be primed surface, but what about restretching old paintings?  Could old paint be loosened from the canvas?

Making paint "long"

Question asked 2019-03-24 14:35:27 ... Most recent comment 2019-03-24 19:07:43
Oil Paint Paint Making Mural Painting

​Hello Mitra,

I am going to make some large format paintings for certain commissions.  Since the paintings are extremely large i find tube paints inadequate because they are too "short".  Although i know tube paints are grounded to perfection they dont leave "long " and flowing brushstrokes that will allow me to work faster and in the style i want.  

Since these paintings are going to be alla prima, I want a fast flowing paint that its vehicle is adequate for what i want and also not going to self destruct because of poor formula for the vehicle.  

Is there a wax and linseed oil formula that can be recommeded?  I say wax because i heard that  wax would give me a "long" paint.  

If wax isnt adequated what does Mitra recommend? 

Thank you,

Hector 





glair

Question asked 2019-03-21 13:40:15 ... Most recent comment 2019-03-21 18:35:14

I am working on some definitions; the definiton I am working on right now is glair.

My first step is reference books and then I go to primary sources whenever possible. My resources, older reference books, state that glair is used for bookbinding, gilding, and painting watercolors on parchment. I talked with one bookbinder and he gave me his recipe for preparing glair and said it was used most for tooling and gilding simultaneously. He said that he used a “bone folder” (non-metal) for folding vinegar and skim milk into frothy egg whites that had set. However when I tried to verify with other book binders no one had heard of it. Is my first source reliable? Is the term bone folder in common use?

I also contacted artists working on parchment. Only one had heard of glair and she didn’t know if it was still in use. She later said that one of her colleagues uses glair with dry pigments when painting and gilding on parchment but she didn’t know if he made his own glair or bought the commercial variety. Does anyone know the pros and cons of handmade glair vs. commercial glair?

Thank you in advance for your help.

Susan

Vandlized Painting

Question asked 2019-03-20 15:19:08 ... Most recent comment 2019-03-20 17:25:32
Art Conservation Topics

​I have a painting when my apartment whas broken into they spray painted a Texas longhorn emblem on it, I believe the painting is acrylic can the spray paint be removed and not destory the painting?

Whiting for Gesso

Question asked 2019-03-19 15:28:02 ... Most recent comment 2019-03-20 12:09:16
Chalk Egg Tempera Grounds / Priming

Over the years ​I've tried various chalks (calcium carbonate) and gypsum (calcium sulphate) to make gesso. I've come to prefer a fine marble dust, for hard to define reasons: it's a bright white, has the right "feel" of hardness to me, and admittedly I probably like the idea of working with ground marble.

Within the two general categories of chalk and gypsum there are many different products available, differentiated by source, type of grinding, processing, natural coloration, etc.  Is it correct to say that these properties don't affect the quality of the gesso, rather they merely reflect individual artist preference (such as my own mentioned above)? Are these differences actually perceptible (aside from the obvious visual one of coloration)?  

Finally, is there any reason to make a egg tempera ground (final layer, not initial) using a medium or coarse grind chalk or gypsum, or would that increase porosity/absorbency too much?


Thanks,


Koo Schadler

Damir Pusic

Question asked 2019-03-18 10:00:33 ... Most recent comment 2019-03-19 09:21:21
Varnishes Studio Tools and Tips Health and Safety

​Hello MITRA,

How long it takes for turpentine to evaporate from a freshly applied layer of dammar varnish over an oil painting with dimensions 80X60 cm?

I plan to invest in local exhaust ventilation (LEV), so it would filtrate varnish vapor. In this process I would varnish painting inside a LEV hood. I don't konw how long to keep it inside.

Kind regards,

Damir P.

Cradling large, rigid, synthetic supports

Question asked 2019-03-12 15:01:32 ... Most recent comment 2019-03-15 15:43:16
Rigid Supports Oil Paint Industrial and Non-Traditional Products Alkyd

I'm considering using either PMMA or a composite panel for an oil painting (using alkyd medium). I expect the size to be around 100 by 70 cm, possibly a bit smaller. In order to keep the weight of the panels manageable, I don't plan on using PMMA thicker than 4 mm (the composite panel will be 3 mm). I understand that this should be cradled somehow on the back? Or would a solid frame with back supports suffice?

On that note, is there a general rule for how large a panel can be, given its thickness, before it needs some sort of cradling?

Oil paint becoming transparent over time.

Question asked 2019-03-14 00:55:45 ... Most recent comment 2019-03-15 01:24:15
Drying Oils Oil Paint Pigments Technical Art History

​I'm wondering if the mechanism for oil paint becoming more transparent over time is well understood?

More specifically, if I paint a layer of paint over another layer, will they both become more transparent at the same rate, or will the top layer become transparent more quickly?

I know some pigments will fade more quickly than others, but for simplicity, let's make the pigments in both layers identical.

Alizarin Orange lightfastness confusion

Question asked 2019-03-13 19:43:15 ... Most recent comment 2019-03-13 22:21:37
Pigments Oil Paint

​Hi! I love Williamsburg Oils’ color they call Alizarin Orange but I’m confused about why its lightfastness rating is Fair, when the pigments it consists of are rated as Excellent by Gottsegen. It consists of PR 177 Anthraquinone and PY 83 Diarylide Yellow HR-70. Bound in alkali refined linseed. Both PR 177 and PY 83 are rated as having “excellent” lightfastness in oil by Mark David Gottsegen in his book. Who is correct?

I typically use this color by itself in thin glazes but sometimes in tints with titanium white or mixed with other transparent warms like quinacridones.

Preserving kraft paper, construction paper, and other non-archival papers

Question asked 2019-03-10 10:16:02 ... Most recent comment 2019-03-10 21:18:12
Chalk Flexible Supports Pastel

I have tested some kraft paper (the brown one used for packing) and construction paper and concluded that the surface works really well for drawing, even better than some art papers. I tested them and it appears both have good pH, but I know that they will probably still deteriorate with time.

I read in the Flexible Supports advice that paper can be attached to a rigid support to preserve it for longer, and wanted to make sure  whether this applies to all papers, including ones not strictly intended for artist use?

My plan of securing them would be: attach the paper to an HDF or hardboard cut to a slightly bigger size using a heavy acrylic gel (or acrylic gel medium) spread on the board surface, remembering to press the paper so that there are no air bubbles/creases formed. I know that the paper will likely still discolor, but I don't mind that. Considering the durability of acrylic, I would expect the drawing to last indefinitely in the right conditions, since even though the paper would become brittle, the strength of the acrylic medium would hold it together. Can anyone knowledgeable about this subject comment? Should I be worried about pigment discoloration, if I plan to use lightfast pigments like charcoal, sanguine and white pastel?

archival adhesive wood and paper

Question asked 2019-03-08 12:53:00 ... Most recent comment 2019-03-08 14:46:10
Animal Glue Art Conservation Topics

I am looking for an archival glue for adhering wood to paper that dries fast. I am using small pieces of wood to make an armature for paper for a diorama. I had been using an archival hot glue but it seems too brittle and will not hold the individual pieces to the wooden box they are going in to.  

Safflower oil on rigid panels

Question asked 2019-03-05 19:00:19 ... Most recent comment 2019-03-06 15:54:53
Paint Additives

​ I'm trying to evaluate the degree of risk associated with inluding one frequently used colour bound in safflower oil (a white paint for example) in a palette where the rest of the colours are bound in linseed oil and the paintings are on rigid panels.  


Your document on mediums states that paints bound in safflower oil yield a "slightly weaker film" than those bound in linseed oil.   I can see how this would be an issue when painting on stretched fabric where the paint needs to withstand flexing but is this less of an issue when painting on a rigid surface?    


Secondly, colours are rarely used without being mixed with other colours. If only one of the paints on the palette contains safflower oil does that also reduce risk?  


Sealing Panel Edges

Question asked 2019-02-25 12:14:22 ... Most recent comment 2019-02-25 21:50:34
Rigid Supports

​My Mt. Athos friend has another question. 

The icon workshop seals all sides of their wood panels with Lascaux Varnish (which I believe is B-72); 3 layers on front, 2 on back and sides.  They do this as the last step.  Is there a preference as to when sides and back get sealed (i.e. when the panel is first made, or when the painting is finished)?  And does B-72 protect against  humidity as well as an oil based paint?  

Thanks,

Koo

oil based spray paint

Question asked 2019-02-22 13:02:50 ... Most recent comment 2019-02-22 17:38:38
Oil Paint

​Hi There, I'm a painter and am looking to incorporate spray paint into my paintings. I usually paint in acrylic first then oil and would like to be able to paint with an oil based spray paint in the upper layers of the canvas. Do you know what the longevity or archival nature of using a oil based spray paint or enamel might be? what changes or adhesion issues might i run into using a product like rustoleum? is it a big no-no? should I try using high quality oil paints via an airbrush instead? Thanks!

Seeking a way for painting to be fun again: ok to mix walnut alkyd with stand oil and OMS?

Question asked 2019-02-20 02:18:13 ... Most recent comment 2019-02-22 03:42:35
Oil Paint Paint Mediums Alkyd Drying Oils

Dear MITRA moderators,

Due to my painting style, I need a medium that will enable me to blend my initial wet-in-wet oil layers the next day. Like many, back in the day I used the old painting medium mix of 1/3 each dammar varnish, linseed or stand oil, and artist's rectified turpentine. Needless to say, once I learned of the longevity pitfalls with dammar varnish, it has been in my rear view mirror. I also switched from turps to odorless mineral spirits. I do miss the "buttery feel" of how the paint moved when I used the old 1/3's mix.


I started using walnut oil several years ago when I was told that it yellowed less than linseed products. When I learned that alkyd oil mediums are recommended for the greatest longevity, I tried one, but it dried way too fast for my technique, getting quite gummy both in the brush and on the panel before the end of my painting session. I then tried the walnut alkyd, which I greatly prefer over the other alkyd medium brand due to the slower drying time, but it also gets too gummy and isn't reliably blendable the next day. (I do mix a touch of OMS with the walnut alkyd, which works better than the straight product for me.)


Additionally, with both the walnut oil medium and the walnut alkyd medium, I find each layer to be a weak paint film when dry to the touch or even "bone dry". I have read similar comments about walnut oil's weak paint film on other MITRA posts, though the manufacturer has assured me that it will get stronger with age. However, my periodically slightly vigorous application or removal technique when painting indirectly with subsequent layers has meant that sometimes I inadvertently bite into the previous layer, so I'm also looking to strengthen my painting medium. 


Chemically, I know that walnut oil and stand oil should be compatible, but would it overly complicate the structure to put a few drops of stand oil in with my walnut alkyd medium – or at least the last couple of fatter paint layers? Are the benefits of alkyd oil painting mediums so great that it would outweigh any such complication, or would it be better to return to a slower-drying oil medium mixture – but without the dammar varnish? 


I want to make painting fun again like it used to be! For me, this means paint that flows and moves, doesn't dry too quickly, and makes a strong paint film so that I don't have to worry about removing the previous layer when cleaning up the edge of a newly applied stroke. It also means that I can rest easy knowing that I have done my best to create works with the greatest chance for longevity.


I appreciate any information or advice you can impart. Thanks very much!

Inner Glow panels

Question asked 2019-02-20 11:53:31 ... Most recent comment 2019-02-21 13:38:18
Rigid Supports

​Has anyone used Inner Glow panels?  Does the wood check or split or has it been properly seasoned?  thanks so much.

Mounting canvas and paper to wood panels

Question asked 2019-02-11 15:39:36 ... Most recent comment 2019-02-16 11:41:10
Sizes and Adhesives Grounds / Priming Rigid Supports Flexible Supports

​Hello dear people from MITRA.

I wanted to ask some questions regarding mounting on wood panels.

1. Do you think that 9mm birch plywood is ok to use as a base for mounting  canvases, papers?  If not, what kind of wood do you think is better to use as a base for mounting?  

2. Before mounting a canvas/paper to wood, do you think that wood should be sized with something? And if you do, with what kind of sizer? 

3.When mounting a linen canvas/paper what kind of glue should i use? I have heard people using Golden Soft Gel as a glue for mounting canvases/papers , or some kind of PVA glue...? 

4. Do you think that this practice of mounting canvas/paper on wood panel is archival? 

Thank you


Marko Karadjinovic

archival affixitive?

Question asked 2019-02-13 12:53:41 ... Most recent comment 2019-02-13 15:27:43
Pastel

​If there an archival way to affix pastels?

titanium-lead white paint mix

Question asked 2019-01-30 12:33:30 ... Most recent comment 2019-02-11 15:25:44
Oil Paint Pigments

​As I reach the end of my titanium white supply, I am revisiting the decision to again mix a 50-50 lead-titanium white for painting.

Titanium white gives a greater opacity over time, but my understanding is that it creates a "softer" paint film.

Lead carbonate white has less opacity, but creates a stronger, harder paint film.

I mix them to hedge my bets with some of the good properties of both.


As I now paint almost exclusively on 10 mm, honey combed, aluminum panels, which will not bend , expand, or stretch like stretched linen, how important is it to have a "strong" paint film?

As I am now using a 25-75 walnut alkyd-OMS medium, is there enough strength and flexibility provided by the alkyd to eliminate the lead carbonate?


I tryi to keep things simple and the paintings "permanent" and when there is an opportunity to do so, I question my methods and materials.


Thanks for your help,


Richard


PS   Not sure that I can do anything more to provide permanence in my paintings.   Painting on panels is a biggie.

limestone and plant glue

Question asked 2019-02-10 05:29:14 ... Most recent comment 2019-02-10 15:12:52
Grounds / Priming

​I am looking into using a gesso consisting of French marble dust, limestone powder, titanium dioxide pigment and plant-based binders (Methyl Cellulose).  Or one with just the limestone and methyl cellulose. (I am unsure of the ratios because the powders come premixed)

I have a few questions:

Are there any conserns to consider about any of the ingredients, soaking up, cracking, archival etc.?

Does anyone have experience using a type of alternative gesso like these?

The gesso will be used as a ground and primer for streched linen canvases, applying 2-3 coasts. 

Reason for this type of ground: looking for a nontoxic enviro friendly option. An alternatve to acrylic, PVA or rabbit hide options.  

thank you in advance for your time

Another Mt. Athos Icon Question

Question asked 2019-02-06 17:36:32 ... Most recent comment 2019-02-10 11:14:43
Art Conservation Topics Egg Tempera

Hello Mitra,

Among the questions the Mt. Athos iconographer sent me, what follows is the most vexing.  It is also very complicated.  His email explanation was very long, so I have extracted the main points below.  

The Problem

The workshop has a large icon production, each monk using same materials and procedure.  About 3 years ago some icons appeared "faded" (not sure if icons are literally losing pigment particles or pigments losing their color).  See images, attached.  On left, icon in good shape; right, icon with diminished color.   He says they appear worse in person.

Mt. Athos Icons, 1.pngMt. Athos Icons, 2.pngMt. Athos Icons,3.png

- The color change takes place within 3-6 months after completion. 

- Does not occur on all icons

- Occurs on both unvarnished and varnished icons.   

- Occurs mostly on large icons.

Materials & Methods of Workshop

- Use Cedar Wood Panels

- Traditional Gesso with 100-300 bloom strength glue

- Use pigments that are, in his words, "dried out, old, cheap"

- Use premade (by the monks) mixes of 6 to 8 pigments for flesh and other areas

- 1 part egg to 1 part vinegar medium

- Hard, tap water to thin paint

- Would often thin tempered paint with water considerably

- Finished with Lauscaux Acrylic Varnish

- Very humid environment

Changes

In an effort to solve the problem, they made the following changes:

- Replaced all pigments with new colors from good companies

- Simplified premixes of color to just 2 pigments (i.e. flesh = Iron Oxide Yellow from Schminck, Eisen Oxide Orange from Kremer)

- No vinegar in medium

- Replaced tap with distilled water

- Not thinning tempered paint with water anymore

Once they made the above changes, the problem decreased 80% but is not entirely gone.  

My Comments

I have a few comments on their practices:

- Use a 450 bloom strength, 100% collagen glue in gesso.

- If working with pigment pastes, be attentive to the potential for mold (i.e. if pastes are partly drying out & sitting for a while)

- Pigment age isn't an issue (they don't become "old") unless they are (a) in a hydrated/semi-moist state (can cause mold), or (b) a fugitive color, which can be affected by UV light (work with ASTM Rated III colors).

- A "cheap" pigment isn't necessarily bad, many earth colors are very inexpensive.  However important to buy from a reputable supplier of artists pigments that can give specifics (origin, lightfast rating, toxicity, etc). 

- Complex premixes of color are fine.  However greater complexity  in a system = greater chance of problems, harder to diagnose source of problem.  Nonetheless, doesn't mean a complex system can't be successful. 

- Mineral pigments are most stable.  

- Vinegar can act as a preservative but it's acidity may affect some colors.  Better to nix vinegar and just start with fresh egg (as they are now doing).

- Once paints tempered properly (correct ratio of yolk to pigment) can thin tempered paint with more water to affect working properties.   In fact, would be unnecessarily very limiting to work only with paint of all the same density.  

However, if you significantly thin tempered paint with water, at some point the binder (egg yolk) is so dispersed, that it becomes necessary to add a drop or more yolk medium to paint. There isn't a precise formula for when more yolk is needed in very water-thinned paint, more of a feeling; i.e. when paint feels like watercolor instead of a bodied, egg-based paint, add bit more yolk to the paint. 

Explanation for Changed Colors

While I think the icon workshop could (or already has) improve some of their practices, none seem to explain the change in appearance of the icons.  I don't even understand what's happening to the color!  Given that some varnished icons faded as well, I don't think they could be literally losing pigment (as a varnish wouldn't permit that); it seems more likely pigments are losing color.

The two things that strike me as potentially problematic are (a) the high humidity in their region, and (b) the cedar panels.  I was struck by the response to an earlier question I posed which mentioned VOCs emitting from cedar can affect metallic colors - might the VOCs be turning some pigments transparent?  If so, why some icons but not all - different wood & atmospheric conditions? 

So I'm puzzled by his dilemma and welcome any ideas.  I also welcome response to my comments to the workshop to improve their practices.  

Thanks,

Koo Schadler

Cedar Wood

Question asked 2019-02-02 13:17:56 ... Most recent comment 2019-02-06 17:37:35
Rigid Supports

My Mt. Athos correspondent says the monks work on cedar panels. I suspect they work on cedar because the wood is insect and rot resistent, but are there consequences to the resins in such a wood?  Cedar takes staining very readily; does this mean it's especially porous and thus more vulnerable to absorbing RH?  Any more thoughts on the pros and cons of cedar as a painting support, specifically cedar coated with traditional gesso?


Thanks,

Koo Schadler

laropal

Question asked 2019-02-06 08:55:15 ... Most recent comment 2019-02-06 14:48:52
Paint Mediums Solvents and Thinners Oil Paint

​One of my colleagues used to use Laropal K80 for making his own painting medium. This product, however, is replaced by Laropal A81 for some time. But using this new A81, the ratio laropal/white spirit seems off, it turns into a tough sticky substance. Does anybody here, know what the ratio should be, or how to avoid the gunk?


Thanks

Rabbit Skin Glue

Question asked 2019-02-02 12:27:08 ... Most recent comment 2019-02-03 07:57:52
Animal Glue Grounds / Priming

Hello,

I recently received an email from a monk living on Mt. Athos; he works in the Iconograpy department.  He has many question, including trying to address a recurring problem with their icons.  I'm in the process of editing his query to a manageable size.  Here is the first of several questions from him that I'd like to pose to MITRA:

Is the most important thing in a gesso glue that it is genuine collagen and good quality, or that it has a high bloom strength?  We are currently using Lucas brand, bloom 100-110 and 180-200.  I understand that the recommendation for gesso is 450 bloom. So can RSG be good quality but also a lower bloom? 

Thanks for helping me to help the Mt. Athos monks.

Koo Schadler

Dipropylene glycol as an oil paint medium

Question asked 2019-01-30 22:50:10 ... Most recent comment 2019-01-30 23:22:22
Oil Paint

​Maimeri makes a product called Eco Oil Medium. Looking up the SDS, it is 100% Dipropylene glycol (DPG), readily available from hobby cosmetic suppliers. It seems to have a good safety profile.  It sounds like it would replace the use of a drying oil as a medium, with lower viscosity (described by one user as watery). I might find the Eco Medium preferable if it doesn't cause yellowing or longer drying times, as oil mediums can.  Is anything known about adding dipropylene glycol to oil paint?  Should it be considered experimental?

Alkyds and varnish

Question asked 2019-01-28 06:48:52 ... Most recent comment 2019-01-29 17:03:16

I read in another post that "Alkyds dry quick to the touch, compared to oils, because of the long polyester polymeric chain component to them." ... but   

"After this first drying step, they dry much like traditional oil paints, which is by auto-oxidation and cross-linking.  So, they dry to the touch faster, and can get ‘stiffer’ faster, compared to oil paints, because of the polymer component, but they eventually dry in a similar fashion to oil paints."

 The key advantage of alkyds then seems to be that they quickly provide a touch dry layer that can be painted over. However, am I correct in assuming that paintings done using alkyd paints and mediums still come under the recommneded 6 to 12 month drying time before varnsihing. 

Old acrylic painting on canvas

Question asked 2019-01-24 08:10:00 ... Most recent comment 2019-01-25 07:31:19
Grounds / Priming

​can I use oil primer over an old acrylic painting to then paint a new work in oils

How to frame a painting on panel without using screws?

Question asked 2018-11-07 14:46:31 ... Most recent comment 2019-01-25 00:30:05
Acrylic Rigid Supports Art Conservation Topics

​Hi,

I am working on a painting (acrylic) on heavy plywood (about 2cm thick). It is 48x48cm. I would like to frame it when it's finished. But I am worried about using screws. Is there a way to frame that painting without making holes in the back? Also, the whole picture should remain visible so I can't press its edges on the front against the frame... 

Thanks a lot for your help.

Best wishes.

Thomas

Relative Humidity specifics

Question asked 2018-08-12 05:50:43 ... Most recent comment 2019-01-24 04:44:57
Environment Flexible Supports Storage Rigid Supports Oil Paint

​Dear MITRA moderators and community,

First of all, thank you so much for your time and expertise. I really appreciate this valuable resource that you are providing.


My question is about relative humidity, and its potential impact on artwork, particularly on oil paintings. I have read your very informative pdf about artwork storage and whatever else I could find here or elsewhere about the issue, but did not see specific information as to what specifically constitutes "wide swings" or fast changes in RH.  Would this be something really quite drastic, such as leaping from 35% to 85% in 30 minutes, or does the phrase refer to more numerically subtle conditions, such as 55% to 65% within 24 hours?


Since late May or early June, I've been experiencing humidity issues in my rented studio space that I definitely did not have last summer. I have a combined thermometer/hygrometer there as well as in my home studio. At the start of this, I was experiencing high humidity levels in the rented space of 70-75%, and even discovered some brown drips down one of my interior walls!  

My landlord has been very responsive, and after fixing an air duct leak that had caused the brown condensation drips, he purchased a small dehumidifier for me to use. I know to avoid "wide swings" or fast changes in humidity, so hopefully I stepped it down slowly enough at first. While I was initially pleased that the dehumidifier unit has manual settings and three fan speeds to facilitate a slow change, unfortunately it just can't maintain a steady humidity -- I am usually still getting 10 or more percentage point swing each day. The daily temperature has remainded constant -- 70-72F.

The supportive landlord is now making several changes and improvements to the property, including sealing my two exterior brick walls from the outside, as well as underneath my concrete floor from the basement, which will all hopefully contribute to a more managed interior climate.  In the meantime, is a daily swing of 10% considered a "wide, fast spread"?  My target is to get it down to 50% RH, but after a spike, I am setting it for 60 then 55 in an attempt to walk it slowly back down again.

I wonder if bringing the oil paintings back to my admittedly overcrowded home studio would be a better temporary storage solution until the landlord gets this under better control. I do have client and curator studio visits in the rental space, so moving the oils isn't the ideal solution for other reasons, but the longevity of my work is of greater importance to me. The paintings that are hung on the two exterior brick walls (unavoidable since it's not a cavernous space) have blueboard backings. The only deformations I have found are on some studies done on small, flat panels that have no cradling. (I have already spoken with the Ampersand representative on how to handle that issue.) I have both oils on stretched linen and oils on cradled Gessobord panel in the space, both finished and framed, as well as in progress. I also have works on paper (framed and unframed) and framed photography in the space.

I appreciate any further specifics you can provide on what exactly a "wide, fast" humidity spread would be in 70-72F, and whether it would be better to safely pack up the paintings and bring them home for now.


Thanks again!

Polyethylene foam as a frame-padding material for wood panels?

Question asked 2019-01-17 15:25:23 ... Most recent comment 2019-01-19 18:37:32
Matting, Framing, and Glazing Rigid Supports Oil Paint Art Conservation Topics

​I've been trying to come up with a better way to frame oil paintings on (solid, uncradled) wood panels. My current thought is: 

1. Construct the frame to allow for the appropriate amount of room for expansion within the rabbet. Fill the voids on the sides of the panel with a polyethylene foam (e.g. EthaFoam, Volara, Cellu-Cushion). 

2. Cut a large piece of polyethylene foam to fit behind the panel, filling the rabbet flush to the back of the frame.

3. Screw a piece of 1/8" plywood to the back of the frame to hold everything in place. 

Basically the panel would be surrounded, sides and back, with foam that would hold it firmly in place and keep it centered in the frame, while also not restraining the panel, so that it can move in response to changes in humidity. 

Is this a sound approach? Is a polyethylene foam material like EthaFoam a good material for this application? 

Thanks!

-Ben

Water gilding over oil gilding

Question asked 2019-01-18 19:13:47 ... Most recent comment 2019-01-18 19:35:41
Gilding

​I applied an oil gilding, which is now perfectly dry.

I've changed my mind, as I feel that some areas should be burnished to a high gloss. Can I apply red bole over this and water gold it on top of the matt gold of the oil gilding?


Thank you 

ABS PLASTIC-Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene as Painting Panel

Question asked 2019-01-10 14:14:15 ... Most recent comment 2019-01-17 14:02:10
Industrial and Non-Traditional Products

​After reviewing MITRA's rigid supports, I could not find any mention of ABS. A very accomplished and highly regarded oil painter (portraits/figurative) has recently begun using ABS for painting panels. The panel is lightly sanded and painted on directly with the oils. The painting surface is very smooth but has tooth after light sanding. How is ABS as a painting panel, if the thickness is similar to ACM thickness? Question- 1. ok to paint on directly with oils or casein or acrylic paint as one professional artist does? 2. ok if primer is used 1st? which primers? 3. ok to adhere canvas to? Here is a link that describes ABS very well. https://3dinsider.com/what-is-abs/ I had no idea that ABS is what Legos are made of!  "ABS is exceptionally resistant to chemical degradation, either by alkaline or acidic agents."

Golden Black Gesso and Egg Tempera

Question asked 2019-01-13 17:20:53 ... Most recent comment 2019-01-17 12:16:32
Grounds / Priming Egg Tempera

​I just completed a metalpoint drawing on Golden Black Gesso.  I applied egg tempera (fairly densely painted, in multiple layers) on a portion of the drawing.  It's been my experience that egg tempera behaves best and ahderes longest on grounds with a lot of porosity, so that mechancial adhesion can take place; and for this reason I don't generally work on synthetic polymer grounds unless they have a lot of added solids and extra absorbency.  The egg tempera behaved pretty well a top the black gesso (a bit more sensitive to lifting, but not too much), so I'm wondering about the composition of the ground. Is Golden's black gesso high in solids, and/or considered more absorbent than regular acrylic gesso?  Has Golden (or anyone else) done testing of egg tempera on black gesso, to see how well it adheres in the long term?


Thanks,


Koo Schadler 

Humidity in Studios in Apartments

Question asked 2019-01-11 07:48:39 ... Most recent comment 2019-01-13 20:17:27
Storage Environment Studio Tools and Tips Scientific Analysis

​Hello!

I have been thinking of asking this question for a long time, and have been reading about average and recommended humidity levels, but since my studio is in my apartment where i live, and we have radiators in every apartment in the building i find it very difficult to set humidity that is recommended...

During the spring, summer and even some parts of autumn the humidity is usualy about 40-55 % . I have read that these are actually solid, ok humidity levels.

But during the cold autumn days and during the whole winter, the city starts turning on the heating and the radiators begin working. 

Temperature is usually set in whole building, so in every apartment is pretty much the same temperature, around 25°C . 

Then the humidity levels drop  up to 12-22 % . 

I was really worried when i saw that the humidity drops up to 12%. 

I wanted to ask, do you think that low humidity like this represents a big danger to paintings( oil, acrylic, egg tempera) and watercolors, gouache paintings, also drawings....?  

If it does, how can i fix this problem..? 

Or are these strict rules meant for very old artworks that need extra museum care..? 

I try to do best for my artworks, and to take care of them as much as i can, but whenever i start worrying that much, i cant help but to think how many old artworks survived in old houses, old studios, in some military storages during wars, and back  in ancient times when i believe artists didn't knew much, or maybe anything about humidity levels...? 

Your answers are much appreciated!

Thank you!

Marko Karadjinovic

Stone or Mineral paper as painting surface

Question asked 2019-01-09 15:08:44 ... Most recent comment 2019-01-12 15:22:36
Industrial and Non-Traditional Products

​The papers in question are made of calcium carbonate with a binder that makes it into a beautiful vellum smooth absorbent surface. I have used this paper with casein paint and casein as underpainting with subsequent alkyd/oil paint layers. I first adhere the unprimed mineral paper to sanded ACM panel using acrylic gel medium or lineco. Since paper is just calcium carbonate with a binder, wonder about the longevity of this paper? papers by Mitz or Yasutomo companies. Acid free. Mineral paper also handles well for acryl gouache.

Fresco Colors

Question asked 2019-01-10 08:22:53 ... Most recent comment 2019-01-12 08:22:33
Pigments Mural Painting

​Does anyone know of a website or book that offers a complete list of pigments suitable for fresco?  The lists I find online are oriented towards historic fresco colors, or mention just a few modern colors.  I'm looking for a more comprehensive list.   


Thanks,


Koo Schadler

Any issues with using pure Lamp Black (PBk6) with oils?

Question asked 2019-01-10 16:20:52 ... Most recent comment 2019-01-11 04:25:07
Art Conservation Topics Oil Paint Pigments Scientific Analysis

​Hi all,

I was wondering if you had come across any issues with using Lamp Black (PBK6) in an allla-prima situation (no underpainting), when not mixed with other pigments or thinned with solvents? 

I paint on ACM panels over a toothy clear gesso (silicia) which is much less absorbant than white gessos. I don't use zinc in my paints or in a primer/gesso.

I use walnut oil to thin out my paint and I normally use Mars Black (PBk11) for my darkest blacks. I would like to try using Lamp Black instead as it should be a bit darker and have a longer drying time which I prefer.

However I have read that it doesn't form very strong paint films and I am concerned that it would form a weak paint film when used on its own and may lead to cracking in the future?

Has any studies found issues with Lamp Black in oil paintings when used in pure black areas?

Thank you,
Richard

Mixing Acrylic Mediums

Question asked 2019-01-07 08:10:21 ... Most recent comment 2019-01-10 19:16:59
Acrylic Paint Mediums Paint Additives

​Hello and happy new year to all!

I have question about Acrylic mediums.

I am painting with Liquitex Heavy Body and W&N Professional Acrylic colors. 

I did a painting using Liquitex Gloss Medium/Varnish (Which people from Liquitex told me that it is best to use it as a medium) . 

At the end, i wasnt happy with the results and i basically took other medium, LeFranc & Burgeois Acrylic Fluid Matte Medium (Since i liked the results more with it) and repainted the whole painting to something completely different.

In this process i wanted so badly to make something that i will be happy with, that i didn't pay attention to what was on my pallette. So i accindetally mixed small amounts of previus medium (Liquitex Gloss medium/varnish) that was in some of acrylics, with this LeFranc Fluid Matte Medium. 

I have heard that if i did something wrond it would be shown in few hours with acrylics? 

I think that this is the painting that i will be happy with, so before i continue, i wanted to ask what do you think? 

Did i make a big mistake in accidentally mixing small amounts of Liquitex Gloss Medium/Varnish with LeFranc Burgeois Fluid Matte Medium, because colors that were on pallette had small ammounts of both mediums in them...? 

And is it a bad practice to switch from one medium to another on a single acrylic painting...? 

Your answers would mean a lot!

Kind regards.


Marko Karadjinovic

Plywood support with traditional gesso

Question asked 2018-12-27 21:19:28 ... Most recent comment 2019-01-10 18:22:41
Rigid Supports Grounds / Priming

​I am currently working on birch plywood cradled panels that I have first sized on both sides with 2 coats of GAC 100, then applied thin layers of traditional glue gesso for painting in casein and oil. In a couple of the paintings I have seen a few areas of short parallel cracks coming through, and am considering adding a layer of thin fabric to the preparation process. Before I get in too deep with preparing a bunch of these panels, I'll appreciate some advice on 1.) the best material or materials to seal front and back of panel, and is the GAC 100 OK for this; 2.) best adhesive(s) for attaching fabric (I've used acrylic gloss medium for this in the past, but have had hide glue suggested to me as better).

OR -is there a way to avoid the fabric step altogether, and simply prepare the wood surface well enough to accept the gesso? It seems like I've read various opinions on this and am now pretty confused! Thank you for your help.

Regalrez 1094 varnsihes

Question asked 2019-01-09 11:54:24 ... Most recent comment 2019-01-09 16:43:11

​There seems to be a growing belief among painters and art teachers as to the 'miraculous' qualities of varnsihes based on Regalrez 1094. The most common belief seems to be that the full strength commercial varnsih can be safely applied when a painting is touch dry. Contrary to that, one vendror recommends the fingernail test which, in my testing takes anywhere from 2 to 4 minths to give the green light, depending on the number of layers of paint (overall thickness).  Another vendor recommends sticking to the tried and true 6 to 12 months.  To complicate this there is also some advice to thin a Regalrez varnsih with a solvent and use it as a retouch varnsih on touch dry paint.  Can you comment on this? Is a Regalrez varnsih differnt enough that the rues for varnsihing change? What are the risks of varnsihing too soon with a Regalrez varnsih?


Spots on Oil Painting

Question asked 2018-11-28 12:33:33 ... Most recent comment 2018-12-31 16:02:26
Oil Paint Solvents and Thinners

​Anyone know what these spots could be that are showing up on my oil painitng? I normally stain the canvas, but this time I opted to paint right on the white gesso. I did just clean my paint brushes, so worried maybe they werent all the way dry? I am using Geneva Oil paints and I used some Neo Megilp to cover the sky area. I can blend these out but then they show back up the next day. Any advice on how to remedy this is much appreciated! One picture is a close up of the problem area, the other is the whole painting, thought I find these mostly on the left side I have spoted a few in the lighter areas to the right. Screen Shot 2018-11-28 at 12.30.41 PM.png

Screen Shot 2018-11-28 at 12.30.56 PM.png

Canvas not adhering to panel

Question asked 2018-12-26 17:34:07 ... Most recent comment 2018-12-26 19:42:57
Oil Paint

​Attached are 2 photos. The first is my painting showing buckling. At first, it wasn't this bad. The canvas is Raphael zinc free on a professional art panel from NY Central art supply. The bucking started almost immediately after I finished the painting. The second is the product I used to fix the edges. Ultimately, it didn't work. The buckling has gotten worse even beyond the parts I fixed. Why could this have happened and how can I fix it so the integrity of the painting is restored? C9765112-BB82-43E4-BBF3-DEE492953D7F.jpeg B187BCB1-8686-4F96-BA7D-A0A049E40062.jpeg

Paper stuck to Acrylic Paint Film

Question asked 2018-12-25 16:26:08 ... Most recent comment 2018-12-25 18:31:20

​My cousin did a pair of acrylic paintings for my mother for Christmas, and wrapped the canvases with wrapping paper, with no intermediary layer (yeah, I know... yikes). Unsurprisingly, the paper stuck to the paint, particularly near the edges. I know acrylic films have a glass transition temperature that is pretty close to room temperature, and therefor there's always a chance that wrapping material will stick, even if the paint is well-cured. 

I've sent my cousin a link to where she can purchase glassine paper, but in the meantime, I'd like to take a shot at salvaging these paintings, if it's possible. This isn't the sort of thing that my mother or cousin would hire a professional to do--if they get ruined, then so be it. My cousin says she will repaint them, if necessary. 

So, conservators: if you were going to try to remove paper that is stuck to the surface of an (unvarnished, and also unsealed) acrylic painting, how would you go about doing it? Swab with some sort of solvent? Water? Something else?

Thanks! And Happy Holidays!  :)

Ralph Mayer's book...

Question asked 2016-11-07 22:12:01 ... Most recent comment 2018-12-21 21:51:34
Technical Art History Art Conservation Topics
I am wondering about the reliability of the information in Ralph Mayer's book the Painters Handbook? If not reliable and even if it is I would appreciate any and all recommendations.

Removing excess graphite with a kneadable eraser.

Question asked 2018-12-12 08:24:59 ... Most recent comment 2018-12-16 18:20:22
Drawing Materials Oil Paint Pencil

​I have seen people suggest using a kneadable eraser to lighten their drawings before painting over the top in oil paint, in a similar way to dusting off excess charcoal.
I would be concerned that the eraser could leave some residue.
Can I have your thoughts on this?

Ron Francis

Transportation

Question asked 2018-12-16 08:21:42 ... Most recent comment 2018-12-16 12:55:46
Acrylic Alkyd Art Conservation Topics Handling and Transportation Paint Mediums Oil Paint Pigments Scientific Analysis Storage

​How important is a climate controlled vehicle for transporting oil and acrylic paintings? 

How can I Flatten out a wavy / buckled drawing paper?

Question asked 2018-12-15 16:34:01 ... Most recent comment 2018-12-15 20:28:42
Drawing Materials

​Hi all,

I have large 30 X 22 inch sheets of new Canford Cardstock 300 gsm acid + lignen free paper that has areas of waviness / buckling throughout the paper.  These papers are new and have no drawings on them.  I am looking for a solution to flatten the paper back out if this is possible?  There are no creases, just curvy waves.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.  

Thanks.

Metalpoint Experiments

Question asked 2018-11-01 12:15:10 ... Most recent comment 2018-12-11 15:18:44
Drawing Materials

Hello All

I'm doing some metalpoint experiments and would welcome ideas and feedback.  

Test Panel 1

To test the value of marks made by 6 different metals on 18 different grounds (2 of which are paper: Plike and TerraStone).  Metal hardness will vary (pewter, gold, silver, copper, brass, nickel). 

The goal is to see (a) which grounds produce the darkest marks, and (b) how the marks age (I've heard from various metalpoint artists that marks tarnish/age differently depending on ground).

Test Panel 2

Apply different metal points to a single ground to show variety of metal marks possible.   Metals to include: lead, lead-tin, pewter, zinc, pure silver, sterling silver, argentium silver, gold (22K, 18K, 14K), aluminum, copper, yellow brass, red brass, bronze, nickel, platinum, bismuth.  (I have all but zinc, bronze, bismuth - still working on those...).   For applicable metals I'll try both dead soft and half hard.

Any ideas for other metals to try?

Test Panel 3

Test methods to speed up tarnishing using liver of sulpher, onions/garlic.

Any other tarnishing tricks?

Test Panel 4

Add abrasive fillers to ground to see how fillers affect mark making. I'll use either generic house paint or student grade acrylic becasue I'm presuming I can add 10-20% fillers to them and they'll still bind well - yes?

Among the materials I'm considering are....

    Titanium white

    Zinc white 

    large micron size pigments (lapis, natural earths, etc..)

    marble dust

    gypsum

    silica

    ground glass

    bone ash

    talc

I realize some of theses substance (talc, gypsum) might be too soft  to affect marks, but I'd like to see.  Are there other wild and crazy substances I should try, just for the heck of it?  

All comments are welcome.  Thanks, 

Koo

    

Gouache and Watercolor on Drawing paper?

Question asked 2018-12-08 05:32:27 ... Most recent comment 2018-12-08 14:50:33
Flexible Supports Gouache Drawing Materials Pencil Watercolor

​Hello!

As well as a lot of artists know, there are those moments of inspiration when we grab something that we have and express what needs to be expressed, not really thinking about technique, compatibillity of materials and so on...

Basically we do what me must, and worry afterwords. :) 

One of those moments for me was recently, when i did graphite drawing on Fabriano Unica Paper (which is 250 gr paper made of 50 % cotton and ideal for printmaking, graphite,charcoal) and painted over that with Gouache. 

Is it a problem to use water media over graphite and on paper that is not best suited for it, but rather for dry techniques, but it is 250 gr paper and is Acid Free ofcourse? 


Thank you!

Marko Karadjinovic

Oil seepage to surface of white oil paint

Question asked 2018-11-19 19:27:52 ... Most recent comment 2018-12-08 13:39:54
Oil Paint Other

​I am finding that after a period of about 1 year or more, surfaces where I have applied very thick areas of white oil paint have brown oil spots, as if the oil in the paint is seeping to the top. This may be due to the low quality of paint I’m using: Winton - or perhaps the kind of white: Titanium. In these cases I have not mixed any mediums into the paint. What is the cause, and can it be repaired? Can I simply paint over the surface with a higher quality white, and will that last?

Framing fresh egg tempera paintings behind glass

Question asked 2018-12-03 16:43:49 ... Most recent comment 2018-12-03 16:30:00
Egg Tempera

​Hello

Can you advise if I am able to frame egg tempera paintings done on gesso panels behind glass within 2-3 weeks of finishing?  Ideally, I would like the works to cure for a few months before framing but due to time constraints, I may have to frame earlier.  I have read the post on glazing ET works previously mentioned on this forum, so am aware of the need for separators etc - but wanted to check whether there would be any unacceptable issues with efflorescence/mould if framing is done this early - & whether the egg is particularly fragile at this stage.  Many thanks.  Zarina

Gilding Oil Paintings

Question asked 2018-12-01 15:09:46 ... Most recent comment 2018-12-01 21:24:38
Oil Paint Gilding

​Hello,

I want to try using gold/silver leaf with oil painting (the composite kind, not the real kind), and I was wondering how I should do it? I've used it with acrylic before and just gilded over top of the paint, but my understanding is that you shouldn't gild over oil paint because it takes an extremely long time to try. 

Would it be best to guild the panel first after priming, and then seal it (with what?) and then paint over it?

I was going to try this approach:

1. Size panel with GAC 100

2. Prime panel with acrylic gesso or oil ground and let dry for a few weeks if oil, for 1 week if acrylic

3. Draw out composition with watercolour pencil and then gild the panel where I want the gilding with Speedballs liquid size

4. Seal it with speedballs liquid sealer

5. Let dry for a day

6. Begin painting

Gouache techniques

Question asked 2018-11-23 13:28:45 ... Most recent comment 2018-11-26 16:12:11
Gouache Watercolor Ink Pencil Varnishes Matting, Framing, and Glazing

​Hello!

I would like to ask multiple questions, since it is about mixing gouache with other techniques.

1. Since many say that gouache is basically opaque watercolor (with more gum arabic binder?), is there any proper way to use it with watercolor? For example, is it ok to paint first layers with watercolor and then to finish the painting with gouache? When switching from watercolor to gouache on the same painting, is there any right way to do it, or i just simply paint with gouache over watercolor? 

And is it possible to switch process, to glaze with watercolor over opaque gouache? 


2. When doing underpainting with Ink, and then painting over that with gouache, which type of Ink is best suited for mixing ink wash technique with gouache technique? And how much can Ink be diluted with destiled water? 

examples of this technique: 

https://www.proantic.com/en/display.php?mode=obj&id=324587


https://theartstack.com/artist/mihaly-zichy/angel-s-secret-21-65-x


3. When doing a drawing with black chalk or graphite, and then doing wash with brown or black ink, and then painting with gouache on top of that, is there a right procedure to do it, or i just simply switch from one technique to another as mentioned above?  And, what type of fixative is best suited for preserving a chalk or graphite drawing beneath ink, and gouache? 

examples of this techniqe: 

http://www.getty.edu/art/collection/objects/493/giuseppe-cades-tullia-about-to-ride-over-the-body-of-her-father-in-her-chariot-italian-about-1770-1775/


http://www.getty.edu/art/collection/objects/112/hendrick-van-steenwijck-the-younger-the-crypt-of-a-church-with-two-men-sleeping-flemish-possibly-1625/


4. When switching the process and doing watercolor underpainting, gouache painting, and then adding chalk, graphite in the final stage of painting, is there some sort of varnish or fixative that is best suited, so that graphite/chalk would not be smeared over the painting? 

example of this technique (Graphite (Chalk?) was used in shadows and lines, in the final stage of the painting )): 


http://www.getty.edu/art/collection/objects/263497/georgius-jacobus-johannes-van-os-bouquet-of-flowers-in-a-vase-dutch-about-1802-1850s/


5. Can gouache be mixed with acrylic painting?

6. How should gouache, or mixed media (ink,gouache,graphite) be framed?   


Thank you in advance!

Kind regards.


Marko Karadjinovic

Sound and Toxin Free Oil Painting

Question asked 2018-11-25 09:24:23 ... Most recent comment 2018-11-26 12:39:49
Oil Paint Alkyd Grounds / Priming Health and Safety Rigid Supports Sizes and Adhesives Art Conservation Topics

 

I am re-reading my post of February 19, 2018, https://www.artcons.udel.edu/mitra/forums/question?QID=408, and all the responses below it. As you know, I am hoping to work without toxins throughout my processes. I am seeking to know: can I create a stable painting without them? After laying out my specific questions for you to consider, I will describe my proposed modified approach, based on the answers you have given thus far.

Specific Questions:

Although lead white would add strength to the canvas, will the combination of my various processes create a more than adequate archival stability for my paintings over the centuries?

Specifically,

Can the rigid support (cradled panel) and the alkyd nature of my titanium white compensate for lead white usage in the ground and throughout my painting?

Can a traditional wet imprimatura compensate for the greater absorption of Golden Acrylic Gesso Ground? (I hope so - it seems to do a perfect job of it – performing for the artist during the process just as well as chalk gesso does – with perfect absorption level for the richer glaze layer and excellent surface flow for the subsequent lean paint).

Proposed Process:

  1.  Size a 16 oz. tightly woven raw canvas one side on the topside while fabric is flat on table. I prefer Gamblin PVA, for reasons already stated in a previous reply.  Snap the fabric when wet to work out any wrinkles. Let dry a day.
  2. Evenly stretch canvas over a birch cradled panel, with the weft direction being vertical for maximum long-term support. Use non-rusting strong thumbtacks for easy potential conservation adjustments if ever required.
  3. Rewet the stretched canvas after stretching with PVA if there are still any wrinkles to facilitate the pullout of the fabric. Let sit a day.
  4. Hand rub and sand five coats of Golden Acrylic Gesso Ground, slightly diluted for smooth application.
  5. Allow to cure over several days.
  6. With Gamblin Solvent Free Fluid, dilute Gamblin FastMatte Alkyd Safflower Oil Foundation paint (mostly Burnt Sienna) no more than 25%. Rub on a high paint spread imprimatura-priming glaze with a cloth.
  7. Into the wet glaze, drop an undiluted foundational layer (grisaille) using Gamblin FastMatte Titanium White and Burnt Sienna and Ultramarine Blue (mixed to the same colour as Burnt Umber). Let dry several days.
  8. With virtually undiluted Gamblin FastMatte paints, add another foundational layer (Velatura). Let dry several days.
  9. Add several layers, several days apart, each starting with a glaze or scumble of the same paints diluted with no more than 25% Gamblin Solvent Free Fluid, with high paint spread. Then modify the glaze with additions of slightly diluted paint, or in white areas, undiluted paint.      

Palette: 

Gamblin FastMatte Alkyd Safflower Oil Paints:

  • Titanium White
  • Burnt Sienna (in foundations)
  • Quinacridone Red
  • Hansa Yellow (in foundations)
  • Ultramarine Blue
  • Phthalo Blue
  • Red Transparent Earth (in glazing applications) 

Rembrandt Oil Paints

  • Transparent Yellow (in glazing applications)

I am looking forward to your answers. Thanks so much for all you do and for your clarifications here.

Kathy Marlene Bailey

how much of which varnish?

Question asked 2018-11-22 11:12:23 ... Most recent comment 2018-11-23 15:21:54
Varnishes

​Hi,
I have to varnish a big oil painting (200x370 cm), and I do not have a lot of experience with varnishing oilpaintings, to be honest. So I have some questions that I hope you guys can help me with.

-It will take quite some time to get the whole surface varnished, right? What varnish would give me enough time to work? (I'll ask two students to help me).
At the same time, the work is hanging in a canteen, so fumes should be not overwhelming for too long :-/.

-And how much varnish do I need for such a surface? The paint itself is rather smooth, but I doubt if 1 liter would be enough.

-And third, and last: we have to do this with the work standing, so not laying flat. How do I avoid dripping?

Thanks in advance,

Matthijs



What solvent removes old damar?

Question asked 2018-11-21 16:26:35 ... Most recent comment 2018-11-21 16:54:54
Varnishes

​New to Mitra.  So I am not sure how to use the search option.

How do I remove old damar varnish?  I tried using Turpentine, but it isn't removing the damar.  

sealing of charcoal on bristol

Question asked 2018-11-12 21:44:45 ... Most recent comment 2018-11-20 15:24:48
Drawing Materials

I would like to protect large charcoal drawings well enough to frame without glass (in a recessed frame). Not ideal, but the glass is an expensive and unwanted barrier. Perhaps Lascaux fix, multiple coats, then another acrylic sealer on top? Wax on top? Other artists must have solved this problem for large scale drawings?​ I have read everything under the category to date.

Difference between various odorless/low odor mineral spirits

Question asked 2018-11-14 09:05:36 ... Most recent comment 2018-11-14 08:31:00
Solvents and Thinners Oil Paint

Greetings​

I'd like to ask about possible differencies between various odorless/low odor solvents. I use Winsor&Newton Sansodor for cleaning brushes, sometimes to make mediums or dilute paint. I have some amount left but soon I will have to buy more. The price for 1 liter can in the shop from which I usually buy the stuff is cca. 32 Euro. That is not really cheap. Recently, I looked at Kremer pigmente and also asked them about their alternative and I was told, that it is Shellsol T. 1 l can is for 5,36 Euro. That is striking difference. So I've been wondering what is the difference between them - or between odorless solvents in general. I looked into MSDS sheets of four odorless solvents:

W&N Sansodor (http://www.winsornewton.com/assets/HealthandSafetyDataSheets/OIL%20COLOUR/Solvents/2011/Sansodor/04412869.pdf)

distillates (petroleum), hydrotreated light, CAS-No.: 64742-80-9, EC No.: 927-632-8

Schmincke Diluent N (https://www.schmincke.de/fileadmin/sicherheitsdatenblaetter/2015/en/50026000EN.pdf)

Substance 1: hydrocarbons, C4-, butadien-free: 50 - 100 %, CAS: 93685-81-5, REACH: 01-2119490725-xxx

Substance 2: hydrocarbons, C10-C12, isoalkanes, <2% aromatics: 10 - 25 %, CAS: 64741-65-7, REACH: 01-2119471991-xxxx

Gamblin Gamsol (https://www.gamblincolors.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/SDS-Gamsol.pdf)

Naphtha (petroleum), hydrotreated heavy CAS: 64742-48-9

Kremer Shellsol T (https://www.kremer-pigmente.com/media/pdf/70460_SDS.pdf)

Hydrocarbons, C11-C12, Isoalkanes, < 2 %, 100 %, CAS-Nr not stated, EINECS-Nr: 918-167-1

If I consider just the term "odorless/low odor solvents", all these things should perform the same. But then I don't understand the difference in price. I guess, that various CAS numbers mean, that the composition is somewhat different in each case. Shellsol T is six times cheaper than Sansodor and Diluent N, but I suppose that doesn't mean that it is inferior product (and also I suppose Kremer wouldn't offer some sort of cheap "trash"). 

Can you explain meaning of those terms like hydrtretaed heavy, hydrotreated light, C11 (I saw msds of various solvents containing a range of these, like C11-C12, C9-C14, etc.)? How does it affect the nature and performance of solvent? Also, do you have any experience with Shellsol T in particular? What should I expect from it? If it performs that same as e.g. Sansodor there is no reason for me to go for Sansodor, which is six times more expensive.


Regards

 

Amber Varnish and Medium

Question asked 2018-11-11 16:22:57 ... Most recent comment 2018-11-11 16:20:00
Varnishes

​Wondering about the use of amber mediums and varnish in oil painting. Benefits, drawbacks? It is very expensive and Blockx is the only company that makes it at present.

Slippery nature of walnut oil

Question asked 2018-11-09 13:03:06 ... Most recent comment 2018-11-09 13:00:00
Drying Oils Paint Additives Scientific Analysis

​Hello,

Could someone tell me about why walnut oil has a slippery feel compared to other drying oils? Someone mentioned it's probably because of a higher glycerin content in walnut oil?

I have read someone else say that it's not recommended to all glycerin to oil paints though as it will interfere with the drying process?

Any thoughts on this?

Thanks,
Richard

Oil paint adhesion to acrylic primer

Question asked 2018-11-09 11:32:04 ... Most recent comment 2018-11-09 10:50:00
Grounds / Priming

Hello,

  I'm trying to better understand my options for priming panels for oil painting and the pros and cons of each system. I was hoping someone could enlighten me with regards to acrylic primer. 

1. As I understand there are three mechanisms that enable adhesion of a new layer in a painting:   a) chemical bonding, b) absorption (wetting of the existing surface by the applied layer), and c) mechanical bonding (interlocking with rough/textured areas). Is this accurate?   

2. When applying the first layer of oil paint over an acrylic primer I assume that there will be no chemical bonding ? 

3. Acrylic grounds have calcium carbonate added to promote mechanical bonding. Is this intended to be the primary adhesion mechanism between the first layer of oil paint and the acrylic primer?

4. I've noticed that some brands of acrylic primer tend to be less absorbant than others - as evidenced by less sinking in of the first layer of piant. Also, "non-absorbant" acrylic primer has appeared on the market. It begs the question, what role does absorption play in the bonding of oil paint to acrylic primer?  Can too much absorption rob the oil paint of binder? Can too little absorption limit adhesion? 

Thanks in advance and I just want to say that this website and forum is a greatly appreciated resource! 

Bitumen/Asphaltum/Gilsonite Nbk6 pigment in oil paint

Question asked 2018-11-09 00:41:06 ... Most recent comment 2018-11-09 00:35:00
Oil Paint

​I asked about Bitumen/Asphaltum/Gilsonite at a painting techniques FB group. But, some warned that it is prone to cracking and fading in glazes. Although several manufacturers have paints named "asphaltum or bitumen" in their lineup ,they are NOT the traditional Nbk6 pigment but are various blends. One paint I bought was too reddish. The pigment alone is available from Natural Pigments and Kama pigments as gilsonite. The only oil paint I can find with solely Nbk6 bitumen is Maimeri Artisti. I would like to use this neutral transparent brown for glazing. But what about the fear of fading, cracking or some say darkening?

Magnesium Sterate

Question asked 2018-11-05 16:28:29 ... Most recent comment 2018-11-05 16:23:00
Paint Additives Oil Paint Scientific Analysis

​Hello all,

I was just reading an article from the UK art supplier (and manufacturer) about their own professional oil paint range:

https://www.jacksonsart.com/blog/2018/11/02/the-differences-between-grades-of-oil-paint/#comment-298531

In the article they show an example of the proportion or ingredients used and I was suprised to discover that instead of using Aluminium Sterate they use Magnesium Sterate. I have not heard of this before.. would I be correct in thinking it would work similarly to Aluminium Sterate but have a drying action?

https://www.jacksonsart.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Provsbasicoil.jpg

I find their paints well pigmented, and good value for money, but too stiff and fast drying in some pigments for my personal tastes.


how to protect color of plants pressed on paper from UV ?

Question asked 2018-11-04 14:51:07 ... Most recent comment 2018-11-04 14:32:00
Art Conservation Topics Solvents and Thinners Pigments

I am currently working on a project in which I crush fruits and vegetables on Hahnemuhle cotton paper using a cylindrical engraving press. As the plants are emptied of 95% of their water in one pressure the color remains on the paper, it does not yellow for the moment, so I keep my print in the dark.

I would like to protect the color of crushed plants from sunlight, UV ... would you have an idea of ​​invisible lacquer, or colorless and matte varnish that I can pass on the plants without damaging or altering the paper?

I also thought of sticking a very fine paper, type rice paper 20 grams, on my print using rice glue or vegetable glue, to protect the plants (so they do not flake) and also protect them from light. When I do this the rice paper becomes almost invisible, I think that if on this paper I apply a layer of varnish to protect the colors from UV it would work, but what do you think?

I don't know what to use, do you have any idea ?

I have to find a solution to show the piece in February at an exhibition and I would like the colors of the fruits to be preserved  during the exhibition.

Thank you for your help

Robert Vickery

Question asked 2018-11-01 15:40:25 ... Most recent comment 2018-11-01 15:29:00
Varnishes Acrylic Art Conservation Topics

​I have a question about those paintings from artist Robert Vickery , that were done with acrylics. I have read that he used Liquitex colors, but what i am really interested is does anyone know with what type of varnish did he varnish those acrylic paintings, how those paintings look today? And are conservators able to remove this varnish and to clean the paintings without harming the acrylic beneath? 

Thank you!


Marko Karadjinovic

PW7 Zinc Sulphide

Question asked 2018-10-31 23:25:40 ... Most recent comment 2018-10-31 23:23:00
Oil Paint Pigments

​Hi,

Are there likely to be similar issues with PW7 in oil as there is with PW4?


Many thanks.

oil paint stick recipe

Question asked 2018-10-31 19:47:55 ... Most recent comment 2018-10-31 19:47:00

thanks​

Affixed labels with fish glue

Question asked 2018-10-31 17:09:20 ... Most recent comment 2018-10-31 17:07:00
Sizes and Adhesives

​While getting ready for an upcoming show, I glued labels to the canvas backs of six of my works with fish glue. I like this glue because it is really tacky, dries fast and is reversible. To my utter horror I noticed that there is now a visible elevation the size of the label on the front of each picture. The paintings are oil on store prepped canvas. I did not add another layer of gesso before painting. Can I safely soak off the label on the back and perhaps dampen the unaffected area, or should I leave it alone and hope they don't get rejected. Any advise would be very much appreciated.

Final Varnish over Retouch Varnish?

Question asked 2018-10-29 12:12:45 ... Most recent comment 2018-10-29 11:59:00
Varnishes Oil Paint

Couple of years ago i have heard about this practice that is ok to put a coat of Retouch Varnish over a painting after a month/two months and then after a year-year and a half to put a final varnish on top of that.  

I heard that is especially ok to put retouch varnish  if the one needs to have a exhibtion, or has done commission and doesn't have year-two years time to let the painting dry.

Year ago i have contacted few companies and asked about this, and got the answer that is totally ok to put retouch varnish after a month/two months and after a year-year and a half to put final varnish on top of that, and that i don't have to remove the retouch varnish before applying the final one.

Also i have read that some conservators/restorators disagree, and that they think that the retouch varnish should be avoided, and that is best to put just a final varnish on a painting. If one needs to put a retouch varnish, then when he wants to put the final one should actually remove the retouch varnish before that??

What are your thoughts about this and what do you think is the best way to varnish a painting, and how to protect it if one doesn't have enough time to let it stay unvarnished for a year-two years?

Thank you in advance!

All the best!


Marko Karadjinovic  

Oil painting mediums

Question asked 2018-10-29 11:22:31 ... Most recent comment 2018-10-29 10:39:00
Paint Mediums Oil Paint Solvents and Thinners

​Hello! I have a few questions regarding oil mediums.

1. I have done some of my paintings with oil medium that has Venetian turpentine in it. The formulation of this medium is one part of stand oil, one part of Venetian turpentine (Schmincke Natural balsam/larch turpentine) and two parts of turpentine ( Lefranc & Bourgeois rectified turpentine) . I have read that Venetian Turp/Balsam is not that recommended, but at the time i didnt know, so i did some very important paintings with this medium. What are your thoughts about this medium? I was very carefull about layers ( fat over lean) Do you think that these paintings will be ok, even if i did them with this medium? 


2. I was also using Winsor and Newton Liquin Original medium.

What are your thoughts about this medium, do you think this is good archival medium to use?

And is it really true that you dont have to be that careful about "fat over lean" rule with W&N Liquin original? I always try to be careful about layers even with this medium. 

I wanted to ask is there some substance that can be added to Liquin as a thinner, some solvent, because i paint in several layers? Or i should just use less Liquin medium in first layer and then add medium as i build up the painting? 

Also i have combined two Liquin mediums on one painting. 

I used Liquin original for first layers and then used Liquin Fine Detail for finishing layer. I have contacted W&N about this and they have told me that is totally ok to combine those two mediums, i just have to keep in mind "fat over lean" rule when i am combining them? What are your thought about this? 


3. In museums there are some paintings that stood the test of time, and these artists did scumbling techniques, and glazes, and it really seems that they sometimes didnt care that much about "fat over lean" rule, and still it looks great. Do you think that we should maybe try to some extent to apply these rules, but not to be very precise and that concerned about it?  


4. And i wanted to ask what types of oil mediums were least changed through time, and prooved to conservators/restorators as most stable? 

I have heard that these were the ones which were more basic (stand oil + turpentine, or white spirit, or something like that). 

What are your  advices about medium choice and what is the best way to  paint in layers? 

Thank you for time and efforts!

All the best!


Marko Karadjinovic 

Gilding 19th century in Portugal

Question asked 2018-10-29 10:05:58 ... Most recent comment 2018-10-29 09:38:00
Gilding

​I'm reading a 19th century Portuguese treatise on gilding. The master gilder that wrote it was called Francisco Liberato Telles de Castro da Silva. He was in charge of the restoration of the gilded woodcarvings of the church of Madredeus, in Lisbon.


He advocates a recipe for the red bole that puzzles me:

1kg Armenian red bole + between 120-150g of graphite powder + between 120-130g of sanguine hematite. This mix should be ground in pure water (and allowed to dry afterwards? The original text isn't clear on this), then mixed with a spoonful of olive oil and ground again. Just before use, this mix should be ground with a weak solution of rabbit skin glue and another spoonful of olive oil.


I have two questions:

If the original mix is allowed to dry before adding the olive oil (as the text strongly suggests) then a spoonful wouldn't be enough to wet the bole - so perhaps he didn't mean to fully dry but just to allow some of the water to evaporate, so the oil could be added to the thickened paste.

Could this very small amount of olive oil be there just as a plasticizer? Wouldn't the fact that olive oil is non-siccative create problems with the drying of the mordant and also with the burnishing? On the other hand, I know that the most beautiful burnishing is achieved when the bole is just before fully dry (a few hours after, not a few weeks after)... maybe the small amount of olive oil replaces that necessary small amount of humidity, allowing top level burnishing to be done after all the water in the bole evaporated?


Many thanks!

Nelson

Acrylic Varnish info

Question asked 2018-10-24 09:18:36 ... Most recent comment 2018-10-24 11:18:36
Varnishes Acrylic

​Hello! I am new at the forum, i am very glad to be here. I am painting mostly with oils, egg tempera, but i also do paintings with acrylic.  I have a question about varnishing acrylic painting. Recently i bought Royal Talens Amsterdam Acrylic Satin Varnish and tested on one piece, and it looks really good. This is removable varnish, based on white spirit. I contacted Royal Talens also, and they told me that i dont need isolation coat because this is removable varnish based on white spirit, and it can be removed with the same solvent. My question is what do you think about these types of varnishes, and do you think it is a good practice to varnish acrylic paintings with them? The composition of this varnish is : Acrylic resin, white spirit, turpentine oil, matting agent (silica). Thank you

Varnishing the Edges

Question asked 2018-10-19 22:27:58 ... Most recent comment 2018-10-23 10:52:51
Varnishes Oil Paint

​Hello,

I was wondering if the edges of a painting should be varnished as well, or just the front of it? I paint the edges too so I figure I should varnish it but I wanted to seek professional opinions here. 

Adhesive properties of sun thickened oil

Question asked 2018-10-18 17:09:14 ... Most recent comment 2018-10-22 17:37:04
Oil Paint Paint Mediums Drying Oils

​Ralph Mayer speculates that, because sun thickened oil is partly oxidised, it's adhesive proberties may be compromised to some extent.
Do you know if this has been tested at all?

Egg Tempera Glazing Medium

Question asked 2018-10-14 09:15:37 ... Most recent comment 2018-10-19 14:55:07
Egg Tempera

I have a painter friend who wants to isolate every layer of tempera she applies because she vigorously works each new layer yet doesn't want to affect underlying ones.  She wants to work in a similar vein to the English painter Nina Murdoch, whose working method is described as egg tempera alternating with varnish layers.  My friend wrote Murdoch to ask what she uses as a varnish but did not get a reply. I've read catalogs that describe Murdoch's work - 

https://issuu.com/marlboroughfineart/docs/1561_mfa_nina_murdoch_artwork_issuu

https://issuu.com/marlboroughfineart/docs/murdoch_aw2_issuu

One image shows a very high gloss, saturated surface – so I am puzzled what Murdoch could be using to achieve her working method and high gloss, but which keeps her work in the realm of "Egg Tempera".  (Of course I realize that artists' descriptions of their work, catalog captions, even museum labels are not always complete or completely accurate). 

The catalog also mentions Murdoch's favored glazing medium recently went out of production; coincidentally my friend noted Sennelier's egg tempera glazing medium has been discontinued – could that be Murdoch's secret formula?  We don't know. I couldn't find Sennelier's glazing medium ingredients but their binding medium is made from egg, oil and gum Arabic.  I would rather such a medium not be described as "Egg Tempera"; I think it would be more clarifying to call it Tempera Grassa or egg/oil emulsion - but I realize I have no say in the matter. :-)

I've wondered how the tubed egg temperas (which are in fact tempera grassas) by Zecchi, Sennelier, Rowney, etc are made - they can't use a yolk in its entirety as the paint would putrefy.  Do you know how they do it?

Back to Murdoch's work, and my friend who's trying to understand it; she also prefers the more saturated, rich look of varnished tempera.   I have told her that, while alternating multiple layers of ET and some sort of water insoluble isolator is potentially quite problematic, I believe there are reasonably durable ways to isolate a final tempera layer and then varnish it.   

 

Any thoughts on the above are welcome.


Koo Schadler 

prints and oils

Question asked 2018-10-18 08:46:32 ... Most recent comment 2018-10-18 14:34:44
Oil Paint

​Hi,

I got this question from a student of mine. He wants to paint with oils on top of a inkjet print. My concern is that those inks might bleed into the oilpaint. Does anyone have experience with this?

Alkyd and Glitter

Question asked 2018-10-09 00:44:21 ... Most recent comment 2018-10-18 11:08:46
Oil Paint Alkyd Industrial and Non-Traditional Products

​I want to try adding glitter to some paintings of mine, but I'm wondering how I can do it properly with oil paint?

I found that using Galkyd Lite by Gambin produces the least yellow tinted colour shift, and holds the glitter in perfectly so none flakes off. However I don't know if this could later be an issue due to either the alkyd yellowing (will it yellow?), or the fact that a layer of alkyd is sitting on top of a layer of oil paint. 

What issues could I face here, and are there any tests I could conduct to see if it will last? I plan to sell the work so I want it to be high quality. 

egon schiele

Question asked 2018-10-10 06:29:40 ... Most recent comment 2018-10-17 14:26:25
Animal Glue Art Conservation Topics Gouache Sizes and Adhesives Scientific Analysis Technical Art History Watercolor

​hi there, egon schiele used watercolour and gouache on different similie japanese papers / fake vellums & brown wrapping paper. did he size this wrapping paper to hold the paint or was the paper made in 1910 heavily sized to avoid seepage? either way is there a paper out there today that is similar to the paper he used? it is hard to find tinted papers for this medium. i have tried sizing my own papers with rabbit skin glue & gelatine, using coloured washses, kraft legion stonehenge paper and strathmore tan for mixed media (none have the same affect as schiele - his colours stand on the paper - not absorbent). apparently he use strathmore japan paper produced by mohawk fine papers. i have contacted both companies and both have directed me here. i have also contacted dr. jane kallir, the world's leading egon schiele scholar. i have also tried wetcanvas. does anyone know if his works have been under conservation. can anyone help? thanks

Saponified Wax?

Question asked 2018-09-27 15:20:04 ... Most recent comment 2018-10-17 13:47:58
Encaustic

I am working on reconstructing a Fayum mummy portrait, and a few sources I've read have mentioned methods that might have been used to make the wax easier to paint with. There's a small section in "Ancient Egyptian Materials and Technology" about "punic wax" that suggests beeswax was possibly saponified to make it water soluble. Do you know if that theory is plausible or have you tried painting with punic wax?

Priming Wood/Canvas Panels

Question asked 2018-10-16 12:41:07 ... Most recent comment 2018-10-16 19:59:38
Oil Paint Rigid Supports Flexible Supports Art Conservation Topics

​I was wondering if there's any benfit to using a layer of alkyd resin like Galkyd to help seal a painting? Will it help reduce moisture absorbtion? 

I would apply it as the last step before painting, so my process would be: size wood panel using gac 100 x2 layers, adhere fabric to the panel with beva film, size fabric using gac 100 x 2, gesso or oil ground layer x2, and then 1 layer Galkyd and Gamsol 1:1 ratio to cover that.  I would be coating the entire panel front and back, including edges. 

Is this overkill or is this a good way to do it? I just want to get a smooth and as warp resistant panel as possible. I'm using the cotton canvas overlay so that if the panel is ever damage the painting can be taken off, instead of having it painted right onto the wood.  

Isolating Egg Tempera

Question asked 2018-10-13 16:00:03 ... Most recent comment 2018-10-16 07:53:35
Egg Tempera

Several years ago, when testing isolators for egg tempera, someone (a materials expert) recommended Golden's GAC 500 and Acrylic Gel Medium as isolators.  Being water-based, I was skeptical they could be applied without disturbing a relatively new egg tempera painting, but in fact they went on fine and worked well.  I haven't used them since but suggest them to students as possible isolators (preferably with more testing). 

Recently another materials expert told me that using GAC 500 as an isolator could prove problematic as it would create a completely unbreathable layer that would stop the egg tempera from properly oxidizing/curing, and could cause potential bloom or mold problems.  Your thoughts?

 

Koo

Pastel substrate-Dibond, Alumalite

Question asked 2018-10-11 13:53:09 ... Most recent comment 2018-10-12 21:35:50
Rigid Supports

Good afternoon,

I am a pastel artist who is searching for a lightweight aluminum substrate to mount pastel paper that can be used in the studio or in the plein air environment. The papers that I am considering to bind to the substrate is Sennelier LaCarte (This surface is created with finely ground (pH neutral) natural cork applied to a 170 lb. (pH neutral) board similar to cardstock) as well as UART paper product (sandpaper material mounted on 4ply or 8ply Conservation Board).

There seems to be many aluminum products available yet looking at your document "Rigid Supports" I have a few questions regarding your selections. The doc states to use a product that has a plastic core yet most are available from 2-5 mm in thickness. A product by the trade name Alumalite has a fluted plastic core and available in 3/8" and 1/4" thickness. Since I paint out of doors the thicker gauge material seems optimal to avoid bending corners and edges of the surface in the outdoor environment. Is the fluted core acceptable? What is the minimum thickness appropriate to avoid warping? A local distributor stated that Dibond and Alumalite are pre-painted with a white aluminum finish yet your document states to avoid anything that does not have a polyester coil coating. The coating that you are referring to is it a high quality pre-painted finish onto the metal prior to fabrication-heat cured/cooled and rewound for shipment? If both substrates are acceptable do you recommend cleaning the panel with 99% isopropyl alcohol prior to applying an adhesive or what cleaning product is preferred? Also what adhesive(s) are considered appropriate to bond the aforementioned pastel surfaces to the aluminum substrate (BEVA 371 adhesive film/other)?

Thank you,

Maria

Tackifier / plasticiser for carnauba wax based encaustic medium

Question asked 2018-07-25 19:53:57 ... Most recent comment 2018-10-11 21:34:43
Paint Making Paint Mediums Encaustic

​I experimented with 100% carnauba wax and pigment on a hide glue gesso ground. As you probably know it was hard and glossy, but brittle, and it was easy to chip off. I am reluctant to add dammar because it may yellow. I considered Canada balsam, but after looking into it seemed that it might have the same problems as dammar. Could a hydrogenated rosin help, or microcrystalline wax? II found an article from the food industry that found polysorbate 60 was an effective plasticiser for carnauba, but I think that would make it susceptible to moisture. I  understand my responsibility to do my own tests, but any suggestions on what I might test? 

Lead Point

Question asked 2018-10-05 17:44:20 ... Most recent comment 2018-10-10 19:08:05
Drawing Materials Health and Safety

​I just received a lead point and lead-tin point from Zecchi's.  How readily is lead transfered to the skin via either the stylus itself or from marks made on paper (i.e. resting a hand on a drawing)?  Any  other lead point consdierations I should keep in mind?


Thanks,


Koo Schadler

Oil paint on Alumacomp surface

Question asked 2018-10-05 14:31:30 ... Most recent comment 2018-10-08 15:17:07
Oil Paint Art Conservation Topics

​Jerry's artarama makes an aluminum metal surface on which they claim you can paint directly onto. My question is can really I use oil paint directly on this surface (without any gesso) and will it last or will it chip off over time?

Collage Adhesive for Oil Painting

Question asked 2018-10-05 00:08:06 ... Most recent comment 2018-10-07 01:58:47

I have an Ampersand Gessobord which has an additional 2 coats of acrylic gesso and a thin layer of oil colour using Liquin. I would like to adhere a small oil painted sheet on Daler-Rowney Oil Painting. Is this possible? What should I use as an adhesive?​

Regalrez 1126 as a final varnish

Question asked 2018-10-05 08:52:09 ... Most recent comment 2018-10-05 21:20:18
Varnishes Oil Paint Art Conservation Topics

​Is there any particular reason why Regalrez 1094 is prefered as a varnish over Regalrez 1126? I gave up on using 1094 as a varnish a number of years back--I just don't like how it handles, or how it's really finnicky and tends to form an uneven sheen (and its high solubility means that you can't really apply multiple coats to even out the sheen), and I don't like how it tends to get tacky when you touch it, or when it gets too warm in my studio. Its glass transition temperature is so low that it can be above Tg at room temperature, on a warm day! That may not be a problem in the carefully-controlled climate of a museum, but for a painting that's going to be hanging in someone's house, and that may need to be shipped in the mail (how hot is it going to be in the back of that UPS truck?), it's a problem. 

So I went back to using dammar, because while its aging properties are inferior to those of Regalrez, it makes an aesthetically pleasing varnish that is easy to use with predictable results, and its Tg is high enough that it's not going to get tacky and turn into a dust magnet just because you don't have the AC turned on. 

But doing some reading on varnishes, apparently Regalrez 1126 is a possible alternative? It has a higher molecular weight and a higher glass transition temperature than Regalrez 1094, but is otherwise chemically identical. Is there a reason why 1094 is (seemingly) preferred variant for varnishes?


-Ben 






Mystery Pigments

Question asked 2018-10-05 10:18:03 ... Most recent comment 2018-10-05 17:45:16

 Over the years I've had several people give me boxes of old pigments they no longer want. 


1.  One box dates from1970s, NYC.  It includes labeled jars of lead white and Naples yellow (the latter genuine, I presume).  There are also many unlabeled jars of beautiful, turquoise colored pigments in various shades, akin to rich versions of dioptasio or malachite – but I'm doubtful malachite or dioptasio were commonly sold in NYC art stores in the 70s.  I'm thinking they are more likely some other copper color (and should be handled with caution).  Any thoughts?

 

2. Another box contains pigments bought at a tiny Italian color shop in Perugia – wrapped in wax paper with scratchy handwriting to identify them, not always legible.  A bright yellow pigment is "Cromo", so I presume it's genuine chrome yellow and should be handled with caution?  Another color is bright green, the writing something like "vinyulto" (very hard to read) – any guesses?  An orangey red that looks like vermillion is labeled "scarlatto"– any idea what exact pigment the term scarlet refers to?

 

3.  Finally, one box contains about a gallon of a fluffy black pigment, some sort of carbon I presume, maybe lamp?  One of my least favorite colors.  I could drop it off at a hazardous waste disposal day but we rarely have those where I live.  Is it okay to just throw away or scatter carbon black in the woods?

 

Thanks.  And I'm not taking anymore boxes of old pigments!


Koo Schadler

 

 

The best type of aluminum

Question asked 2018-09-12 15:06:18 ... Most recent comment 2018-10-03 19:56:08
Oil Paint Rigid Supports

Hello!

Various types of aluminum sheets are available. Which material is best suited as a foundation for oil painting?

  • Al99,5
  • AlCuMg1
  • AlCuMg2
  • AlMg1 (can be anodized)
  • AlMg2Mn0,8
  • AlMg3 (can be anodized)
  • AlMg4,5Mn0,7
  • AlMg5
  • AlMgSi1
  • AlZn4,5Mg1
  • AlZnMgCu0,5
  • AlZnMgCu1,5

I'm thinking about painting directly on a sandblasted surface (the first layer with titanium white (linseed)).

Protection of back of paper/canvas

Question asked 2018-09-30 12:36:58 ... Most recent comment 2018-10-03 19:17:28
Watercolor Flexible Supports Matting, Framing, and Glazing

​Would it make sense to apply this plastic/aluminium backing (homemade version of Marvelseal) to thick watercolour paper before framing it, to prevent potential future contamination?

Is this also helpful with canvases?

The article only seems to talk about boards:


https://www.naturalpigments.com/artist-materials/moisture-barriers-artwork-supports/

Why does fabric need to be sized but cotton rag paper doesn't?

Question asked 2018-10-03 09:19:22 ... Most recent comment 2018-10-03 18:48:52

​I am a printmaker who uses oil-based ink on cotton rag paper and sometimes on mulberry for both relief work and monotypes. I've sometimes used oil paints, after allowing some of the oil to be absorbed by paper towels. I'm wondering why I don't have to seal my printing papers (Rives BFK etc.) but on canvas, you would need to use gesso.

Preparing An Ideal Rigid Support

Question asked 2018-09-30 19:16:31 ... Most recent comment 2018-10-01 07:49:02
Rigid Supports Flexible Supports Oil Paint Grounds / Priming Sizes and Adhesives

Hello,

I'm trying to find the best way to prepare my supports so that I can have the longest lasting paintings possible. This is my current process, I use commercially made birch plywood panels that are cradled with basswood. These are the ones I use https://www.currys.com/catalogpc.htm?Category=WOOD_PAINTING_PANELS

This is my current process

1.    Sand the panel to make it smoother using fine or extra fine grit paper (usually 220). Wipe off dust or vacuum the panel to get rid of any debris. (I use a dry cloth because I don't know if it's okay to get it damp)

2.    Apply 1 coat GAC 100 to the front and sides, and let it dry enough that I can turn it over without it sticking to anything (usually 20-30 minutes roughly)

3.    Coat the back and inside edges of the panel, then let it dry with the back facing up for 2-3+ hours (I use a smooth but semi-firm nylon brush to apply the GAC 100, it helps minimize brush strokes)

4.    Repeat the process above to coat the front and the back again, but this time let it dry for 3+ days

5.    After 3+ days I apply acrylic gesso with a very soft camel hair brush or a soft nylon brush. If the gesso is thick I use a stiffer brush or water it down. I apply 2 coats but if I water it down I add more to compensate, usually only 3, sometimes 4. I wait the around 4+ hours between new coats depending on how cool to the touch it feels.

6.    I let the gesso dry for 72+ hours before painting because I've seen that recommended by a few companies/artists including Golden. Then I start painting

I do want to add a few steps to help my paintings be more archival. First I want to start mounting cotton canvas to the panels using BEVA film, before the gesso step. I would then use GAC 100 x 2 coats to help block oil penetration to the canvas. After that I would continue with the gesso step, but this time add a third layer. The third layer would be clear so I can draw my design on the second layer with pencil first and then seal it, to avoid having any graphite transfer through to the paint. Finally I would finish by using a 50/50 mixture of Galkyd Lite and Gamsol to thin out a colour I want to use for the ground layer, and then paint it over the gesso and wipe away the excess to leave an even tint. I was told this is a good way to increase adhesion for future oil paint layers, especially if you do heavy impasto which I want to explore more.

I'm using those specific wood panels because they are the only ones I can access easily where I live in Canada, and I'm using 10oz cotton duck canvas because I can't afford linen (yet). I'm an art/design student, I don't have a big budget. 

One thing I saw mentioned in another thread here was that GAC 100 is really bad as a moisture barrier, so I was wondering how much this matters with the panels I use since they are 3 ply and cradled? Do I need to do the priming method listed here instead? http://www.justpaint.org/preparing-panels-for-a-life-outdoors/ - if so, how would that change my current method? Also how much ventilation would I need because I don't have anywhere to work with a ventilation system. I do all my work in my room and avoid anything with fumes, or do it right by the open windows.

I havent painted much all year cause I've been fixated on solving the issue of "what support is best?" and I know that's a subjective topic so I'm hoping someone with proper expertise here can help me out. Thank you for taking the time to read this

Clove oil vapour test - FYI

Question asked 2018-09-26 16:05:07 ... Most recent comment 2018-09-27 03:34:00
Drying Oils Oil Paint Paint Additives Scientific Analysis Technical Art History Pigments

FYI in case it proves useful for reference

I have just completed my first proper test of clove oil for extending oil paint drying time. Although I have used it for a few years I've never tested it out properly with different pigments.

For this test I mixed several of my core paints I use (cheap, low chroma, high opacity) with walnut oil until they took on a slippery quality. I then applied each mix to two separate sheets of PET-G with a W&N clear acrylic gesso ground.

Each sheet was stored in an A4 sided clear plastic folder and sealed (so probably not air tight, but not open to freely moving air). They were stored side by side in a dark (but not totally light free) house temperature environment. Each night I would open both boxes and test if the paint had dried by drawing down a vertical line with the use of a rubber shaper tool.

One sheet was left as it is, while the other had a cotton wool pad placed inside and two drops of clove oil were added to it each night. So no clove oil was added to the paint itself and the paints on each sheet came from the same mix. I then recorded once a day over a period of 14 days for each sample when they had touch dried.

The results were surprising.. and interesting. I didn't expect to see much variation in drying times in the same pigment between brands. If anything I expected that the stiffer brands which had more walnut oil added might take longer to dry.

Instead I found the complete opposite! The stiffer paints seemed to not have their drying time extended very much at all by the clove. I am not sure if this is due to the the presence of driers, or waxs/aluminium stearate in the paint to add body. Or maybe it's for another reason as yet unknown?

I though I would share the results as they might prove useful to others. Next I want to examine the difference with clove oil present in the actual paint, as well as not replenishing the clove oil drops each day.

Photo of the folders used and test surfaces:

clove_oil_test1.jpg

Final results, stopped after 14 days.

Clove_oil_test_results1.PNG

Durable paint films

Question asked 2018-09-24 11:15:46 ... Most recent comment 2018-09-26 16:01:43
Oil Paint Paint Additives Scientific Analysis Technical Art History

I have read many times where people have made statements about the durability of paint films. Statements such as linseed oil produces the most durable oil paint film, or that slower drying paints tend to form softer weaker films, or that additives like clove oil, resins or other additives can make a less durable paint film.

My question, is what does that actually mean in practice? Are differences in durability in a paint film measurable by a microscope, or other chemical or other scanning tests? Are differences only apparent in bending tests, or do they relate to delamination in real world paintings.

Does a 'less durable' paint film mean it is more likely to delaminate, or that it will withstand less stress and strain? Will a painting done in linseed oil on dibond last longer before cracking than the same painting if done in say safflower oil? Or is there no appreciable difference?

I realise these are impossible questions, but I hope you can feel my frustrations about the lack of answers regarding what a 'less durable' paint film actually means..

Musty Smell on Canvas

Question asked 2018-09-24 14:11:27 ... Most recent comment 2018-09-25 12:22:03
Acrylic

​Is there anything I can do to get the odour out.  It is acrylic on a gallery canvas? It has some yellow spots on the back of the canvas

I have tried putting it in the sun outside and a vinegar wash but does not get rid of it.  Thank you for any help you can give

Alternative Oil Based Ground Canvas Primers

Question asked 2018-09-19 16:13:43 ... Most recent comment 2018-09-22 06:45:05

Hi MITRA Team,

 

I am inquiring on information that would support the use of  White Oil Base Primer paints (sold through paint stores/major home improvement stores ) as an alternative to Gesso and/or for adding as a top layer to the existing Gesso foundation.  

 

I recently re- read some articles and books written by artists and several mentioned that they used a White Cover Stain Oil Based Primer sold through hardware /paint stores for sealing canvases. Some applied the Oil Primer as the top layer over Gesso  and others stayed with an oil base for all layers. One or two articles actually mentioned the name of Zin_ _ _ r Oil based primer for indoor/outdoor applications.

 

Has anyone tested and/or heard about using traditional oil based primers that are normally available for household/commercial paint stores on artist canvas and/or panels?

 

Is there any reason NOT to use oil based primers that are available through paint/hardware stores?  

 

Looking forward to your reply.

 

Patrick McGuire

Sealing the back of canvases

Question asked 2017-03-15 06:53:44 ... Most recent comment 2018-09-22 06:07:50
Flexible Supports Grounds / Priming

​I've come across conflicting information on this.

Some old manuals advise us to seal the canvases also from the back to protect them from humidity. Japan size and tin foil were highly recommended to do so.

On the other hand, I've read that canvases sealed from behind perform worse than canvases where the linen fibers were left to breathe. 

What is your opinion on this topic?

Cheers. Nelson

Contaminants in rags/paper towels.

Question asked 2018-09-10 17:31:10 ... Most recent comment 2018-09-10 22:43:07
Oil Paint Environment Studio Tools and Tips

​I am wondering what harmful residues or contaminants  might be introduced into the paint film during cleaning of palette, wiping off brushes during painting, etc. that may be present in general paper towels/ blue automotive shop towels and if it is worth the investment to use a higher quality rag. There is a product called sontera ec wipes, which market the product as containing no binders, etc. is there a conservator recommended product for general painting rag use? Wouldn’t even old t shirts etc have laundry detergent residues on them? 

Metalpoint Questions

Question asked 2018-09-06 13:09:37 ... Most recent comment 2018-09-10 12:30:12
Drawing Materials

Hello,

I have some metalpoint questions.

1.  I have a metalpoint friend who no longer uses his favorite grounds - Golden's Pastel Ground and Sandable Hard Gesso - because he is concerned with the warning labels (i.e. can cause cancer).  I presume the warning is due to silica content in both grounds - is that correct?  Any other reason? 

2.  I presume it's sufficient to wear a good dust mask to address the issue?  Even with a mask my friend doesn't like creating dust because he figures it ends up somewhere.  Is there any harm to these sanding dusts if wiped up with a damp rag and put in the garbage?

3.  My friend also had problems with "fading" in metalpoint drawings. He understands they don't literally fade but rather the metal isn't adhering well long-term; he feels he probably over-sands his ground, doesn't leave enough tooth for the metal to be deposited within. 

My question is, how does a metalpoint line actually "adhere" to the ground?  Is it merely that metal deposits get "lodged" within the interstices of an irregular surface; or is there another sort of adhesion (such as electrostatic adhesion)?

4. I want enough tooth in a ground to maximize the potential for dark lines, and to create a good bond between metal and ground.  On the other hand I want a smooth surface so my nib doesn't skip or leave dark flecks when drawn across areas with more texture. Any thoughts on how best to achieve these contradictory aims?

5. Another conundrum of metalpoint drawing: the more one works a surface with a metal nib, the more smoothed the surface becomes, ergo the less abrasive it is and the less metal is deposited. 

One way I address the problem (i.e. the surface is smoothed by the act of drawing itself) is this: Once my drawing is more or less developed, I'll occasionally apply a very thin, transparent layer of whatever ground I'm using over the entire image.  This whisper thin "scumble" of ground slightly obscures the drawing, yet it's still visible; the fresh ground reinstates "tooth" so I can go back in and deepen my darks and build up the drawing again, but richer and more multi layered. 

Do you see any problem in putting a very thin layer of ground on top of a metalpoint drawing, and then continuing to work on it (and potentially repeating that process several times in a drawings?) FYI, I use different grounds - gouache, casein, acrylic polymer gesso, traditional gesso - although the same ground throughout a single drawing.

I have more metalpoint questions – but that's enough for now!  

Koo Schadler 

 

  

black patina on Rodin bronzes

Question asked 2018-09-06 22:05:09 ... Most recent comment 2018-09-07 21:56:42

An exhibition of some 25 bronzes by Rodin is opening tomorrow, Sept. 7, 2018 at the Jundt Art Museum at Gonzaga University in Spokane, WA. I will be writing up a review for a regional arts magazine called Art Chowder. Two of the pieces are owned by the Jundt and they have a typical, and very pleasing, aged bronze patina. The majority in the show come from the Iris and B. Gerald Cantor Collection​ and they all have a black patina. Some conservators came to "polish" (I was told) the 22 pieces from the Cantor Collection. The museum's preparator had asked the conservators about this matter and they really didn't have an answer about the nature of or reason for this black patina. It really is black and very shiny, and to my eye competes with the sculptures' form. Is anyone on MITRA familiar with this? I'd like to address it in the article (will cite source) because i'm sure visitors will wonder.

Thanks very much!

Oil paint storage

Question asked 2018-09-05 08:55:44 ... Most recent comment 2018-09-05 16:34:23
Handling and Transportation Paint Making Storage Studio Tools and Tips

​Dear MITRA moderator,


I start make my oil paint out of pigments and linseed oil, nothing else, and I don't know how to store large amounts like 200 to 500 ml.

One year until now I used plastic syringes for small amounts and had no problems.

My first question is: What do you think of keeping this paints in plastic syringes? Would paint react with plastic envelope?


My next question is more general:

What do you suggest as best way to store linseed oil and pigment paint?

Empty aluminium tubes are not economical for me and glass jars load with oxygen during use. Do you know if empty aluminium tubes can be used more than once, I mean can I open them again after use and fill?


Kind regards,

Damir.

medium/oiling out/varnish

Question asked 2018-08-27 22:34:54 ... Most recent comment 2018-08-31 22:34:26
Varnishes Oil Paint

​This is a great resource! thank you for the support.

A long winded question:

I have looked at the reasons for the issues of sinking in.

I have looked over the technical docs. around vasrnishes and I have corrected my process to (hopefully) avoid the following problems in the future.

However I have a few older paintings that I need to "correct'" as the Gamvar varnish I have applied has been beading, uneven, spotty and dripping.

I want to try and carefully remove it or somehow even it out.

Here is the lowdown

I use a generous amount of chromatic black. My mixture is a combo of Aliz Crimson, Prussian Blue and Raw Umber.

Because of the dose of Raw umber, and the fact that I was using too much thinner, I consistantly had areas that "sunk in."

As a result I was correcting this issue by oiling out using WN Artists' Painting Medium as I painted to bring back the details and rejuvinate the work. Occassionally, I would apply this over the entire work when I was finished to create the most even appearance. Sometimes this worked well.

However, after letting the paintings dry for 6 months I tried to apply, (2 coats thus far), of Gamvar as a varnish and it failed to sink into the work and beaded and ofter dripped as mentioned.

My question: Is the non adherence and innefectiveness of the varnish a result of oiling out with the WN medium? Can I remove this with OMS or mineral spirits? and what is your opinion about the WN medium? 

Also looking for expert help in and around the Hudson Valley if I do have to remove the varnish...

Primer soaking up oil paint

Question asked 2018-08-23 15:31:48 ... Most recent comment 2018-08-31 12:46:41
Oil Paint Sizes and Adhesives

​I have a piece of dibond that was sanded and had 2 layers of Bullseye 1-2-3 primer on it and then an old acrylic underpainting for a painting I never started.

I primed the dibond again with 3 coats of Bullseye 1-2-3 primer over the old acrylic painting and lightly sanded the last layer with very fine grit sandpaper. I then painted a undiluted acryic underpainting with fluid consistency.

After a few days I painted with oil paint thinned with pure walnut oil and found that around 4-6 hours later parts of the paint were dry and non-shiny as though the oil has been sucked down into the primer/acrylic underpainting.

In this case I am guessing that the (in total) 5 layers of bulleye 1-2-3 primer resulted in a too absorbant surface, but I expected the acrylic paint to seal the primer to some extent. But it seemed to have no effect judging by the speed the oil paint was sucked into the primer.

Is this perhaps due to the acrylic resin used in the paint or a property common to all acrylic paints due to their open surface nature? (in contrast to the closed nature of oil paints).. Are all acrylic paints absorbant to oil?

Thanks,
Richard

Non-Toxic Solvent Product

Question asked 2018-08-29 23:00:19 ... Most recent comment 2018-08-30 10:41:23
Oil Paint Paint Mediums Solvents and Thinners

​Hello MITRA folks.

I just came across this product, and wondered if anyone here has had any experience (especially using it as a toning or underpainting medium) with this product, Natral Earth Paint "Eco Solve?" https://www.naturalearthpaint.com/products/eco-solve

Thanks for any thoughts!

Oil Paint Seep to Rear of Canvas- Conservation

Question asked 2018-08-29 01:34:03 ... Most recent comment 2018-08-29 12:26:43
Oil Paint Art Conservation Topics Drying Oils

​I have a blot of oil paint about the size of a nickel that penetrated my Liquitex Matte Medium prime/size layers into the back side of the canvas (36x36 inches). It came from an early layer that was lean and thin, dilluted with odorless mineral spirits. This painting has been entirely dried and hardened for about 5 months. Given that the oxidation process of oil paint is no friend to cotton duck canvas (18-24 oz mine) what would you do to help the long term integrity of the painting?

I had considered applying acrylic gesso to the oil blot, or even the entire backside of the canvas, applying layers thinned slightly with water to soak deep and contain any oil leakage. I have researched (to no avail) the conservation of Francis Bacon oil paintings on raw, unprimed and unsized canvas which I sought as a precedent. 

Thank you for your help!

Mistakenly mixed oils and acrylics, can I save my painting?

Question asked 2018-08-21 13:53:58 ... Most recent comment 2018-08-27 17:42:31
Oil Paint Acrylic

Hello and thank you in advance for your time.

A few days ago, I painted a portrait on a 6"x6" gessoed wood panel using oil paints, or at least that's what I thought. When my paint tubes break, as they sometimes do, I put the leftover paint into small, clear jars. Unfortunately, a jar of acrylic ochre somehow snuck into my drawer of oil paints. I didn't notice anything fishy until the next day, when I returned to my palette and discovered that all of my paints were understandably wet with the exception of the hardened acrylic color.

This painting has a light acrylic underpainting which I applied many months ago. The rest was completed a few days ago in one sitting. The use of this color is not isolated- it is incorporated into the whole portrait. However, although it was mixed into most of the piece, it is not neccessarily the majority color. I relied more heavily on reds, whites, and yellows when creating the skin tones. Removing the paint would mean destroying the work completely, which I am not prepared to do.

I am wondering two things: 

1) What will happen to my painting if I leave it as is?

2) What options are available to me to attempt to rectify the situation? Would varnish or resin help hold it together?

Thank you for your time.

"Non-Absorbant Gesso"

Question asked 2018-08-22 01:20:45 ... Most recent comment 2018-08-23 11:56:38
Grounds / Priming Oil Paint

​I'm not sure if it's kosher to ask for thoughts on specific products here, but thought I'd risk it, as I can find no reviews anywhere for the new "Michael Harding Non-Absorbent Acrylic Primer" that came out in late 2017. It is advertised to "not suck out the oil from oil paint, thus preventing sinking in." But doesn't an acrylic gesso actually need to have some absorbancy to bond with oil paint? I'd LOVE to find an acrylic gesso that I could scrub a solvent-free Imprimatura into without it's absorbency preventing a really light layer of paint, but this seems too good to be true... Thoughts would be much appreciated.

Pigments in modern time.

Question asked 2018-08-16 06:00:30 ... Most recent comment 2018-08-18 11:31:46
Oil Paint Paint Additives Paint Making Industrial and Non-Traditional Products Pigments Scientific Analysis Technical Art History

​Hi,

I recently came across a very insightfull book by Max Doerner.

In the book he mentions that the strength and archival longevity of ancient paintings can also be attributed to the fact that the pigments were ground much more course,providuing a greater adhesion of the pigments to the oils resulting in a very durable paint film in contrast to what we have in modern times,that modern colormen risk creating very weak oil paints by grinding the pigments too finely in their persuit of color brilliance andsmooth paint consistency.Though it can be rectified somewhat by adding finely ground pumice stone or marble dust to give the paint film some grit.

On the surface this makes sense to me in many ways but would like to hear your opinion on this matter.

Thank you.

Maxfield Parrish Painting Needs Conservation

Question asked 2018-08-17 10:58:06 ... Most recent comment 2018-08-17 12:30:59

Hi,

I have a friend who owns a Maxfield Parrish painting (of a farmer accompanying his oxen at sundown on a wintery day.  She believes it was on the cover of Collier’s Magazine Jan. 1906; her in-laws bought it at Vose Gallery, Boston in the 1960s).  It isn't in great shape - has smoke damage (they hung it over a fireplace) and a few small areas missing paint. She is looking to get it conserved.  

I recommended she check out the American Institute of Conservation (AIC) website to find a conservator. I've had good luck with AIC in the past.  However I'm wondering, since it's a work by a well known painter, if a greater level of scrutiny is warranted.  

When a painting by a "famous" artist needs attention, is there any interest in or means by which it could/should be brought to the attention of historians or conservators; or are there just too many paintings by well known painters in private collections to warrant such attention?  Just curious.


Thanks,


Koo Schadler

 

Alkyd and 1-shot enamel

Question asked 2018-08-09 12:34:51 ... Most recent comment 2018-08-16 11:39:39
Alkyd

​Hi, Is 1-shot lettering enamel alkyd based? Would artist's alkyd paint be compatible with this enamel?

While I'm here, does anyone have experience with the medium Smith's Cream? It has been recommended to me to use with  lettering enamel. 

I'm trying to decide what type of paint to use on a traditional landscape painting to be installed outdoors. ( I just can't manipulate acrylic and I'm afraid that the artist's alkyd paint is very much like acrylic to handle. ) So, I got a few considerations. The other artists may be protecting their work with uv protection  and graffiti protection. Apparently, the 1-shot won't need this extra coating.

Thank you!

Collaging inkjet print to acrylic painting...

Question asked 2018-08-05 11:25:11 ... Most recent comment 2018-08-15 11:00:30
Acrylic Varnishes Art Conservation Topics

​I work for an artist who paints acrylic on canvas. He would like to collage an inkjet print to the acylic-primed canvas (using Lascaux 303 to adhere). There may be a minor amount of additional paint application around the edges of the print after it has been applied to the canvas, but otherwise, the surface of the print will remain untouched. I usually finish off his paintings with a coat of Golden Soft Gel Medium and then two coats of Golden Polymer Gloss Varnish. So, my question is... (from a conservation point of view) would it be alright to cover the inkjet print with the soft gel and varnish as well, or is there another product I should be using to protect the print separately?

Uv protection over oil, outdoors

Question asked 2018-08-09 12:10:08 ... Most recent comment 2018-08-15 09:51:36
Environment Varnishes Oil Paint

​Is it reasonable to think that a painting done with artist's oils ( on an mdo properly primed board) will withstand the weather and sun exposure with several, 5, coats of uv protection, archival spray varnish? Is there another better product? The project I am working on will be installed outdoors 6 months of the year, hopefully to last several years. Thanks so much! 

How to frame silverpoint

Question asked 2018-08-09 12:46:10 ... Most recent comment 2018-08-11 17:56:02
Drawing Materials

​Is it recommended to frame silverpoint/metalpoint drawings under glass? Will it affect the oxidation process? How long will the oxidation process go on for?

Thanks!

Studio safety

Question asked 2018-05-10 15:00:04 ... Most recent comment 2018-08-08 00:00:01
Health and Safety

​This may be redundant, I didn’t see too much on it here though.  My question is about waste management. I’m an oil painter, so paint including lead white, and mineral spirits are my concerns. I have not painted for about two years because I am a hypochondriac, and my current studio space is a basement apartment. I am trying to get over it, and have been trying to find some clarity. I live in Utah, and I actually contacted my state office of solid and hazardous waste, and explained what I was doing, the waste I was generating and an estimate at the quantity. They  indicated to me that even though I was engaged in activities for profit, my residential status and volume would allow disposal into the municipal waste stream. I also contacted my local transfer station, and they will accept up to 5 gallons of waste at a time for 8$, which is very reasonable. My problem is safe storage. In a day, I might generate 3 or 4 paper towels with a few milliliters worth of paint, and some mineral spirits stained areas. For final brush cleaning I will use two small bowls of water and wipe the waste out on a paper towel so as not to have it go down the drain.  I am storing these materials for a week or two in a justrite oily waste can until I take it to the transfer station, how safe is this given my living environment? Does solvent evaporate out of those cans? Am I trapping volatile compounds and releasing them every time I open it? The can says empty every night which makes no sense. I am not opposed to “solvent free” however large quantities of drying or vegetable oil on rags still present a combustion risk. And varnishing procedures are not accomplished without use of solvent. So I can’t entirely get away from solvent. I am also curious what artists were doing with waste throughout history. There were thousands of artists working in Paris in th 19th century. Where did all their painting rags go? Anyway I apologize for my neurosis I just want to keep working, but my anxiety makes me think that I’m storing waste that will explode into flames at any moment.                                                                                 

Water-Miscible Underpainting

Question asked 2018-08-01 14:14:07 ... Most recent comment 2018-08-05 16:37:43
Oil Paint

​Hello MITRA folks. I can't find the reference within the forums here, but I seem to recall that someone expressed some hesitation about using water-miscible oil paints for an underpainting for further regular oil layers (for a solvent-free approach to oils). Something about "they haven't been around that long to demonstrate their long-term archivalness." That was also said about acrylics used for the same purpose, and apparently they are now proven to be reliable. Would someone comment more on the use of water-miscible oil paints for an imprimatura and/or underpainting for regular oils? Thank you so much!

Oleoresinous varnishes polymerized with oil

Question asked 2018-07-31 10:49:22 ... Most recent comment 2018-08-04 19:41:08
Varnishes

​this is a reply offering clarification as to the type of coating I wish to apply to wood turnings. From my readings it is said that oil varnishes are better then Spirit varnishes. I wish to prepare And apply a permanent coating that seals, vrmains flexible and is a high gloss.  

Varnishes

Question asked 2018-07-30 23:24:07 ... Most recent comment 2018-07-30 23:04:00

​Brian, 

The response you gave me is a starting point for me. 

For years I had mixed Carnauba wax (highest grade, light amber) with beeswax (bleached) in proportions of 3 parts carnauba was to 1 part beeswax. The wax is supper hard. Should one drop a stick it shatters like broken glass. After polishing the hardwoods turned up to grit 600 the wood apeares like mable. All sanding is performed on the lathe in motion. I would press the hard wax stick against the wood and then buff it with a soft  cotton cloth. This application yielded a high gloss surface. But the finish doesn’t hold up over a short time of handling. The wax would dull. I am seeking to produce a mirror finish (high gloss) on the exterior of the turning that is more durable to handling with bare skin.hands.

The link you gave me about violin finishes is a good start. I will experiment with some of the formulas presented. I did not have any recipes. Given the time and expense I did want to proceed without any glue as what should be the ingediants and amounts. 

Any finish has to be flexible that is why I mentioned kiln dried wood verses air dried woods. 

You mentioned that the furniture restoration conservators may have their own formulas. If you can offer a link to them that would also be something I would investigate. 

Any finish I apply should seal the wood from moisture changes and offer a hard durable gloss that hold up. 

Thank you for responding to my initial inquiry. Everyone’s time is limited and I don’t want to waste any bodies time. Thank you.

Storing oil paintings with corrugated cardboard sheets between painted surfaces

Question asked 2018-07-28 02:17:17 ... Most recent comment 2018-07-30 16:01:38
Storage Oil Paint Art Conservation Topics

​Greetings,

I recently moved studios and used pieces of corrugated cardboard (made for mirror boxes) in between the faces of the paintings- the surfaces of the paintings (oil on canvas, dry paint) to protect the textures from rubbing and scratching each other. After the move, I left these sheets in between the paintings for storage for similar reasons, but then remembered the acidic negatives of cardboard and wanted to know if this practice should be avoided. Is storing paintings in contact with cardboard going to be problematic related to the acidity?

Similarly, is there a best practice for storing a large amount of paintings fairly tightly packed in the studio while protecting the surfaces? 

I am aware that not having light on the painting will be a long term issue, but perhaps plastic wrapping is preferable. In the past I have just gone dry face to dry face, but my surfaces have gotten more delicate and need more protection...

Thanks so much for any insight! I´ll research resource archive here in case this is discussed elsewhere.

T

Need information - priming of linen canvas

Question asked 2018-07-26 00:24:06 ... Most recent comment 2018-07-27 23:51:58
Grounds / Priming Industrial and Non-Traditional Products

​Hello everyone,

I have a question regarded priming of linen canvas. I have streched over 100 canvases and glued them with rabbit skin glue, and want to know that what would be the best primer over the glue which is reliable and trustworthy. I know that old masters used oil primer, but I have got so much different information that I am really confused. Someone told me that I can just buy regular acrylic paint which we use in homes for interior and make three coats of it on canvas, while others says that I should use oil primer. Some people go for the gesso version.

What about the glue, next time, should I use GAC400/200/100 insted of rabbit skin glue?

I have seen 19th centuries paintings on galleries, and the are almost vanished. The oil is cracking and the conditions are very bad. I saw a Picasso in gallery, and that was almost finito. This means that paintings which are made on acrylic background are not reliable.  

 

Wood turner and cabinetmaker

Question asked 2018-07-25 14:10:49 ... Most recent comment 2018-07-27 15:11:12
Varnishes Drying Oils Other Solvents and Thinners Flexible Supports

​I work only with air dried woods that I have harvested for their unique figured grain characteristic. These woods will always move with changes in humidity., unlike kiln dried lumber whose moisture content has been reduced to 6%. I am no pleased with modern commercial synthetic varnishes that have a plastic look. I have read much on the subject of classical oil and alcohol varnishes utilizing tree resin. I don’t want to move forward without some advise from  persons with experience in making such varnishes. Given that each resin has different acid resin constituents and percentages developing a receipt by trial and error could be a life long expensive process. I have purchased a wide assortment of gums and resin based upon my readings but I am not applying this custom finish to canvas.  

Encaustic over Watercolor?

Question asked 2018-07-20 22:22:27 ... Most recent comment 2018-07-26 21:52:17
Acrylic Encaustic Matting, Framing, and Glazing Varnishes Watercolor

​Hello MITRA folks! Recently, I've come across several professional artists who are using encaustic over their watercolors on paper, sometimes layered with mixed media in the wax. I know encaustic has been around a long time, but I'm wondering if the encaustic (as an alternative to glass) a) is good UV protection b) will yellow or darken over time c) has long-term archival problems including dust, fragility, poliution, temperature sensitivity, physical damage, etc. and d) has an odor that lingers? On a related subject, I know that some artists use acrylic mediums and varnishes as an alternative to glass over watercolors, but I seem to recall that Mark Golden is somewhat cautious of this use of their products, stating that acrylic varnishes will change the appearance, texture and surface of a watercolor on paper, and that this approach is not as protective as archival framing under glass. But...varnishing a watercolor would essentially turn it into an acrylic painting, and a conventional acrylic painting which has been varnished with acrylic varnishes would also have this same vulnerability, wouldn't it? Or maybe not because the paint film would be thicker with acrylic paint? I'd really appreciate some light on all of these questions, if you are able. Oh, and it goes without saying that this would be on a rigid support. Thank you!

Collaging into oil paint

Question asked 2018-07-22 07:46:28 ... Most recent comment 2018-07-24 10:20:26
Oil Paint Art Conservation Topics Paint Mediums Sizes and Adhesives

​I work in mixed media and sometimes add collage elements after I have already used oil paint.  Since conventional adhesives cannot be used on top of oil, I use the oil paint itself as the adhesive. Sometimes I mix in impasto. The materials I am collaging are lightweight, typically fabric or ribbon.  If I am using a natural fiber, I seal it first to prevent erosion from contact with the oil. Can anyone tell me if this is a good method, or recommend any alternatives?  I am concerned about collaged elements falling off over time.  Thank you. 

Oils over Acrylic Underpainting

Question asked 2018-01-17 13:01:48 ... Most recent comment 2018-07-24 04:09:35
Acrylic Oil Paint Other Watercolor

​Would anyone hazard a method for a "durable" approach to using oils over an acrylic underpainting, which also possibly has collage elements? I am particularly concerned about oil delamination, drying time between acrylic layer and subsequent oil layers, best thinning medium for the acrylic layers, and the ideal substrate. Any thoughts or links to articles would be greatly appreciated. I know there are contemporary well-known artists who use this approach and have not read anything about their paintings falling apart. I am also wondering if watercolor could be used as the initial layers instead of acrylics, and any caveats about that approach. Basically, I'm looking for a quick way to get a painting started without the traditional use of solvents for this underpainting or initial rough-in layer. Thanks!

Sealing Gold leaf

Question asked 2018-07-20 20:56:25 ... Most recent comment 2018-07-23 17:59:42
Gilding

​Hello, I am working on a oil gilding project. I am gilding with 23k best surface goldleaf on top of a wooden, linen lined, gessoed board. I have used shellac for my first surface layer and for size application, I have used Lafranc Charbonoble 12 hr size. What is your best recommendation to seal the goldleaf after application is complete.

Venentian turpentine and stand oil

Question asked 2018-07-23 05:15:12 ... Most recent comment 2018-07-23 17:45:13
Grounds / Priming Oil Paint Paint Mediums Other Studio Tools and Tips

​Hi,

I am curious to know about the strenght and flexibilty of venice turp and stand oil considering is thick viscous body and how well it ages and if it might actually help the paint film be a bit stronger if either of these are used as mediums with additions of normal turp and oil and if they may actually increase the strength of oil grounds(I make my oil grounds by hand with chalk,pigment,oil and a bit of alkyd etc.)

Thank you!

Permanent cotton fabric sealer (ground,gesso,size) for permanent adherence to magic smooth epoxy.

Question asked 2018-06-30 12:22:47 ... Most recent comment 2018-07-13 20:52:20

​Hello,

Before I start doing multiple tests maybe someone can steer me in the right direction or even better allready have the solution to theis problem. 

I need to seal fabric to close the holes in the weaving allowing me to spread magic smooth epoxy on top without it going through.  I need a permanent adherence between the fabric, the sealer and the epoxy. The sealer has to be flexible and permanent. 

Thanks for your time.

Best,

Tao

refractive index of Oil paint samples by manufacturer, does it exist?

Question asked 2018-06-28 22:45:16 ... Most recent comment 2018-07-01 14:59:35
Oil Paint Paint Making Pigments Scientific Analysis

​If it is not available, I would like to make a database of the refractive index of Oil Paint samples, along with their partical sizes per a given unit of paint, for each currently available, and respected oil paint manufacturar.

Is this information which has already been collected? If it is, I would really appreciate information on how to access to the data.

I am not sure how to catagorize this question.

Archivality of polymer-covered acidic paper

Question asked 2018-06-17 12:13:24 ... Most recent comment 2018-06-29 06:56:07
Sizes and Adhesives Other Industrial and Non-Traditional Products Art Conservation Topics

Would building up layers of texture or mass using things like toilet paper or tissue papers or newspapers covered in acrylic medium or PVA glue be a bad idea from a conservation perspective? The only thing that I managed to find online is that polymer-encasing won't stop paper degradation itself, but I'm wondering if such degradation would be detrimental to the entirety of a work (presuming we only use the paper for structural purposes and don't care if it gets brittle or yellows itself).

Would it be better to soak the paper and shred it before mixing with a polymer and plaster to make a cellulose clay-like substance?

I tried searching for information about conservation issues with papier mache related to acidity, but couldn't find anything.

How do I seal acidic adhesive?

Question asked 2018-06-16 16:42:49 ... Most recent comment 2018-06-19 09:08:41

​I am creating a slate-veneer panel for oil painters using flexible slate veneer and aluminum composite material. Here are three photos: 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1k1Q9hXYUjTgjybDCTfTHfX-XmYQik_XK

The back of the slate veneer almost certainly has acidic adhesive to adhere a thin felt backing. (It's building material.) ​So, is it necessary to seal the back of the veneer with something like GAC 100 before adhering it to the substrate, or does adhering it seal it enough? I used Golden Soft Gel to adhere the slate to the ACM, and it worked very well. On the sample in the photos, I sealed the back of the veneer with two coats of GAC-100 before adhering it, but I'd like to skip that step, if the panel would still be satisfactory. 

Thanks, Amanda Teicher, Seattle

Panel Bracing

Question asked 2018-06-09 04:33:36 ... Most recent comment 2018-06-18 12:16:26

​Hello,

Recommended practice is to not glue cross braces to the back of a (let us say, 1/4 inch tempered hardboard, or 1/2 to 3/4 inch Medex (minimum formaldehyde MDF panels).  Considering medium large, 36 by 48 inch panels, or similar.

I assume/ have read that the reason is to minimize or eliminate the bracing  "marks" appearing in the painting over time, and the potential warpage these wood strips may undergo.

How can the cross bracing perform its intended function of keeping the panel from "cupping" or "bowing", when it is only attached to perimeter bracing?

Has the website ever considered a "visual database" of contemprary "best practice" supports?  For example, every internet search for building a wood panel for painting recommends glueing cross braces to the back of the panel, which is, probably, bad.  But not doing so  may lead to "warping, bowing, cupping"; also bad.

Pictures would be helpful.  Thank you for considering questions that are more implicit than explicit, and many thanks for your time and effort considering these issues.

Archival qualities of oil based ink on paper for printmaking

Question asked 2018-06-12 19:08:44 ... Most recent comment 2018-06-13 10:25:49
Drying Oils

​Dear Mitra people

As a painter I’m very aware of the need to correctly size supports prior to painting in oils on them. I’m now getting back into printmaking and am puzzled as to how the paper copes with oil-based inks such as are used for lino printing. etching etc. I know there are water based inks available. However, I much prefer the oil based ones (and have already bought some). I’m wondering if the papers used for such prints (even the best quality printmaking papers) are doomed to eventual degradation due to the oil in the inks, which can, for example, in a link print, be used in considerable quantity. I do note the survival of many such prints over the centuries, such as Rembrandt’s etchings etc. I’d be very interested to hear your thoughts on this question. 

Best White for Imprimatura

Question asked 2018-06-03 13:37:10 ... Most recent comment 2018-06-09 10:05:58
Alkyd Grounds / Priming Oil Paint Pigments

​Hello MITRA folks! Can you recommend the best white oil paint (used thinly) for both a straight white Imprimatura and a pale colored Imprimatura? Thin, of course, and non-Zinc. I'm also wondering if a product like Gamblin Ground could be used? Whatever I use needs to be non-yellowing if some areas are left exposed, and also needs to take varnish the same as further layers of oil paint. Hope that's clear. I used to do this with a Zinc-based paint, but apparently that is NOT a viable option anymore. Thanks for your thoughts.

Wyeth and Ink Underdrawings

Question asked 2018-06-07 09:52:48 ... Most recent comment 2018-06-08 06:51:38
Egg Tempera Ink

​Does anyone (Dr. Joyce Stoner?) know if Andrew Wyeth always began his egg temperas with an India ink underdrawing, or did he do so only for certain paintings, or for just part of his career (i.e. early on)?  

Thanks,

Koo Schadler

Lamp black - issues?

Question asked 2018-06-07 03:37:52 ... Most recent comment 2018-06-08 02:47:39
Pigments Oil Paint

Hi all,

I prefer to use Iron Oxide Black (PBk11) for my darkest values as I read that unmixed Lamp Black (PBk6) can have cracking issues due to the very small pigment size and oil absorbing nature. I use it pure for the darkest values and then mixed in with other pigments for the darker colours in my painting.

However I do find Iron Oxide Black dries a bit quick. Would mixing it with Lamp Black be acceptable from an archival point of view so I get a bit more open time? Would the Iron Oxide help the paint film withthe larger particles and less oil rich nature?

I work on rigid panels on a toothy surface with paints made more fluid with walnut oil (no solvents). With this extra oil and lack of movement do you think I would experience any issues with using pure Lamp Black areas? Or would it be safer to use a mix with Iron Oxide Black or Iron Oxide on it's own?

Thank you,
Richard

Plywood panels

Question asked 2018-01-26 12:11:23 ... Most recent comment 2018-06-05 10:36:46
Rigid Supports

Hi, I've sometimes used cradled birch plywood panels for smaller works (from 4"x5" up to 11"x14") over the past 5 years. I size the panels on all surfaces with an acrylic medium (GAC100) and prime the face with 4 coats of acrylic gesso. The brand of panel I use seems to be of good quality. There is no raising of fibers when I size them. However, I've seen some instances of people on painting forums implying that plywood panels will "definitely" crack over time - no exceptions - and shouldn't be used.  How accurate is that assertion in your estimation?   The article at: http://www.justpaint.org/understanding-wood-supports-for-art-a-brief-history/ says " Completely sealing and priming the plywood with several layers of gesso is essential to eliminate future cracking ... "  This implies that, with proper preparation, plywood panels are a viable long term support. Am I correct in that assumption?   

How can I have slate veneer tested?

Question asked 2018-06-03 15:08:39 ... Most recent comment 2018-06-03 22:19:20
Rigid Supports Industrial and Non-Traditional Products

I have just received a sample of slate veneer, which I believe has the potential to be a terrific surface for oil paintings, especially if some of the slate is left visible in the finished painting. This slate veneer is thin and flexible. You can cut it with scissors, but it's real stone. The sample I have has a thin cotton felt backing. I asked the supplier if he knew if the adhesive used on the back were pH neutral. He didn't know. (Slate veneer is usually used in woodworking.) I'd like to know if there's a way to have this sample tested, so I'll be sure it's OK to adhere to a substrate of aluminum composite material (using either BEVA 371 Film or one of Golden's acrylic mediums). 

If you're curious to look at the slate veneer, I made a 1-minute YouTube video called "This is Slate Veneer." Here's the link: https://youtu.be/X2NjyON3QOs

By the way, if I do create an ACM panel with slate veneer, I would seal the surface of the slate with a gloss or semi-gloss acrylic medium (whichever Golden recommends) before painting on it. 

Thanks for your help.

Amanda Teicher

Will copper corrode even if sealed with Incralac?

Question asked 2018-05-30 22:18:37 ... Most recent comment 2018-06-03 14:39:31
Grounds / Priming Rigid Supports

Hello,

Would you mind sharing your knowledge about copper as a surface for an oil painting? 

I make artist’s panels for myself and other Seattle artists with aluminum composite material as a substrate. They feature various surfaces. 

I’ve been researching copper, and I've just learned that, even if it's sealed properly with Incralac, the copper will only stay shiny for about 5 years, according to a technical expert at Talas. I called to ask about Incralac, and he told me that copper isn’t expected to stay shiny indefinitely, that it’s incredibly prone to corrosion. Because of that conversation, I’ve chosen to stop research and development on copper-veneer panels. I am now reluctant to develop a copper-veneer panel without more assurance from experts that there is a way to preserve its shine that would satisfy artists, conservators, and collectors.

What do you think? 

Thanks so much for your time and expertise. 

Amanda T.

Seattle

Spit Polish - amylase powder

Question asked 2018-05-13 01:14:12 ... Most recent comment 2018-05-31 23:16:13
Art Conservation Topics Oil Paint Solvents and Thinners

I was curious if using amylase powder - available in large amounts, as people use it to convert starch to sugar - can be used to create a more effective cleaning solution for a large area, rather than having to drink water and spit all over an oilpainting's surface?

Amylase powder it's suposedly the key enzyme in spit that cleans things, so I figured why not create a large batch for a giant surface, rather than having to worry about what I eat or stay hydrated?  "cause sometimes I just want to eat garlic y'know?

Standing desk

Question asked 2018-05-28 15:34:50 ... Most recent comment 2018-05-31 14:44:22
Studio Tools and Tips

​Hi,

First of all, please forgive my poor English! I work sitting in front of a desk. I use acrylic paints on rigid supports. My pieces are not put horizontally on the desk but slightly leaning. I have just seen a photo of Alex Colville's standing desk and am wondering whether some of you work in a standing position with a table easel. If yes, do you know where to buy one? Or if I need to build it myself, would you have some advice about what it should be like?

Thanks!

Delamination

Question asked 2018-05-17 10:04:50 ... Most recent comment 2018-05-30 19:11:01
Egg Tempera

Hi Brian,

 

In a reply to a recent post you said, "…works painted over earlier compositions are much more likely to develop delamination issues over time." This raised questions for me.

 

1.  Why is this so? Is it because newly formed oil paint films don't crosslink with dried paint underneath?  How much less absorbent is a dried oil paint film versus acrylic gesso ground?  And were you referring to oil paint only, or other mediums?

 

2.  Would you say the same is true for egg tempera; that delamination is more likely to occur in works painted over earlier compositions?

 

3. The case is often made that dispersive adhesion is primary; however in my experience with egg tempera mechanical adhesion seems equally important.  When I've continued painting on aged egg temperas (from a few weeks to over a year old; i.e. partially or fully polymerized surfaces) the paint is more difficult to work with; much more prone to lifting if I do things like sponge on watery paint, or lightly sand or polish as I develop layers.  This seems to indicate less than ideal adhesion between old and new egg tempera paint layers; and that they "are much more likely to develop delamination issues over time".  And yet I've also been told (by well-informed people) that it's fine to paint atop old, polymerized egg tempera with fresh tempera (as long as the surface is clean).   Your thoughts?  

 

4.  To address the less than ideal working properties of fresh tempera paint applied to a polymerized surface, I do three things to the surface: 1. Wipe off dust, 2. Do a gentle sanding with a 1500-grit sanding pad, to open the surface, 3. Apply a very thin nourishing layer of egg yolk medium (1 part yolk to maybe 8 parts water).  I'm actually not quite sure why I do #3, except that it seems to help the paint grip and behave better – but I also wonder if the nourishing layer is more detrimental (i.e. contributes toward fatty acid migration, or even delamination) than helpful.  Again, your thoughts?

Thanks as always!

 

Koo 

Eastlake

Question asked 2018-05-10 01:26:17 ... Most recent comment 2018-05-30 01:33:10
Technical Art History

​Just curious, in regards to the writings of eastlake what are some of the technical inaccuracies promoted by him? What would be the benefit of reading his work? I know he talks a lot about the Flemish painters, do you know of any other resource that would give solid information not only on the practices of certain painters from the northern renaissance (like van eyck) but also materials? Thanks!


Regards,

Justas

Sizing/priming the reverse of the canvas

Question asked 2018-05-28 20:42:04 ... Most recent comment 2018-05-29 07:23:25
Flexible Supports Grounds / Priming Oil Paint

​Hi! I guess this is a topic already answered, but I coudn't find it.
I've read both that the reverse of the canvas shouldn't be sized/primed and also that the current thread between conservators said that should be sized (and then mounted in a more rigid support). Well, should the back of the canvas, the raw linen, be sized and primed or not?

Digital Printing on Acetate

Question asked 2018-04-11 04:16:42 ... Most recent comment 2018-05-26 06:46:23
Photo-Documentation / Digital Printing Industrial and Non-Traditional Products

​I am looking to print on acetate/transparencies - are these compatible to overlay over lithographs to make fine art collages/assemblages?  I am unsure whether commerical transparencies are archival/acid free.  Grafix are the only company which appear to state their acetates are acid-free/printer friendly for fine art use but I am limited by their sizes.  I am using an inkjet printer.  Are these methods archival once framed behind UV glass? (Based in UK) Are there other alternatives for using transparent overlays which can be digitally printed on?

Sticky/stringy paint without levelling

Question asked 2018-05-22 13:06:13 ... Most recent comment 2018-05-23 18:28:54
Oil Paint Drying Oils

What kind of mediums or additives​ can I add to my oil paint to give it a sticky/stringy quality that won't also cause the paint to level? The use of bodied oils provides the stickyness and stringiness, but levels too much. 

Arches Oil paper mounting, repainting old paintings

Question asked 2018-05-12 18:04:33 ... Most recent comment 2018-05-14 21:49:51
Oil Paint

​I have been doing small studies from life on Arches Oil Paper that have had 3 coats of acrylic gesso applied.  I realize the oil paper does not need the acrylic ground applied, but I prefer the surface prepared in this way. 

I would like to mount or otherwise prepare a 6"x8" oil study as a gift to a family member.  What would be the best method?  I don't expect the painting to last for centuries, but hope to get at least a few good years of enjoyment out of the painting.  I work in sizes up to about 9"x12" on Arches Oil paper with the acrylic ground, so if you can address any issues going up to this size as well, just in case any future studies might be given as a gift, that would be appreciated. For my more serious work that I hope lasts a long time, I paint on tempered hardboard prepared with acrylic ground, but cost and storage space prevent me from always working on hardboard, especially when most of the studies are for my personal learning experience.  

The other option would be for me to paint studies on hardboard and repaint over unsuccessful paintings.  Would this be a sound practice assuming the paintings have not been varnished?  Any advice on this practice?

Thank you to all who contribute their time to this forum, it is very much appreciated.

Thanks in advance. Barbara

Unprimed linen canvas 8x8 warp and weft

Question asked 2018-04-27 11:19:02 ... Most recent comment 2018-05-13 13:35:10
Flexible Supports

​Looking for plain weave umprimed linen canvas 8x8 warp and weft, who makes or carries a linen canvas like this? 

Linen used in the 19th century

Question asked 2018-04-21 13:35:10 ... Most recent comment 2018-05-10 09:48:28
Rigid Supports Flexible Supports Scientific Analysis

​I like many am interested in the materials used by my favorite past masters. As conservators, are there any current manufacturers that would supply a linen texture that is close to what an artist like John Singer Sargent might use? Does that knowledge enter the realm of conservation needs? If anyone is also familiar with trends in support texture for artists who painted thickly like sargent, sorolla, zorn, etc. that would be excellent as well. 

Bitumen

Question asked 2018-05-02 18:56:34 ... Most recent comment 2018-05-03 03:46:51
Pigments Oil Paint Art Conservation Topics

​Cassel Earth, NB8, bituminous earth.

A pigment I have long been contemplating on using although I have only used imitations of this pigment(premixes to replicate it),I have read a few things on this pigment and know that it is not stable at all and that there have been quite a few paintings from history that have suffered from its usage but also that it was used successfully in some.However there are paint manufacturers who produce this pigment.Should this be avoided or is there a way to safely handle this pigment?

R.

Sleeping in the Studio w/ Drying Oil Paintings.

Question asked 2018-05-01 00:00:05 ... Most recent comment 2018-05-02 19:25:23
Oil Paint Health and Safety

Dear Mitra :

I was having a discussion with an artist who often sleeps in her studio. It's a small space, without good ventilation, so she paints solvent-free. She works on two or three paintings at a time and hangs them on the walls to dry. She's fairly sure that sleeping in the studio is fine. I wonder about that ( many of us have had to "work where we live" at some point in our lives ).  The only information I could find about solvent-free linseed-oil paint and aldehydes, etc., dealt with house paint. 

    Is sleeping in the studio - or for that matter, hanging wet paintings in the bedroom - really a safe practice, even if you don't use solvent?

Cochineal

Question asked 2018-04-27 11:24:04 ... Most recent comment 2018-05-01 23:22:26
Art Conservation Topics Oil Paint Casein Paint Making Pigments Technical Art History

​I would like to find out what is the best way to prepare cochineal to last as much as possible, (is there anything that can be done to improve its lighfastnest) 

Acrylic isolation coat and varnish query

Question asked 2018-04-27 04:01:23 ... Most recent comment 2018-05-01 02:14:36
Acrylic Varnishes

Hi all,

I have an acrylic painting on a smooth panel. I would like to try to retain the brush strokes and smoothness when I apply an isolation coat and varnish. For the varnish I can always use a spray, but for the isolation coat I'm a bit stuck without having access and experience of an airbrush.

Is there any product that applies an acrylic resin in a spray form that would serve as an isolation coat? Would a non-removable varnish work if I then used a removable varnish for the 'varnish' layer?

Any suggestions would be gratefully received! :)

Richard

(Imitation) goldleaf and acrylic medium

Question asked 2018-04-30 18:27:15 ... Most recent comment 2018-04-30 21:01:41
Acrylic Gilding

Is it sound to use acrylic medium instead of the regular gilding paste to attach imitation goldleaf to a rigid, gessoed support? Is it fine to put acrylic on top of said gilding? Would there be any archival problems with such a solution?​

Rigid Supports

Question asked 2018-04-24 11:23:00 ... Most recent comment 2018-04-24 22:30:12
Rigid Supports Sizes and Adhesives

​I have decided to make custom 48" x 72" single-layer wood panels.  I plan to use a 1/4" plywood or MDF panel over a 2" plywood cradle with cross struts every 24" with corner bracing.  Is there an archival preference for plywood or MDF?  Could you would recommend a wood variety or brand of MFD?  Are plywood cradle struts better than a solid wood cradle, such as poplar?  I will apply two (2) coats of Acrylic Gel Medium.  I will then apply 1/4" to 1/2" of textured modeling paste before I apply acrylic paints.  Are there any issues I should consider with very thick modeling paste, such a reinforcement? thanks

Synthetic sable brushes

Question asked 2018-04-04 00:24:09 ... Most recent comment 2018-04-23 19:18:45
Oil Paint Studio Tools and Tips

Dear MITRA,

I love sable oil painting brushes but am looking for a animal-friendly alternative. Can anyone reccomend a high quality synthetic sable brush that handles similarly to the real thing?

Thanks!

Manganese Oxide Blue (YlnMn)

Question asked 2018-04-16 19:33:46 ... Most recent comment 2018-04-21 19:20:53
Oil Paint Acrylic Watercolor Pigments

​Hi, I was wondering if any of the Moderators have had a chance to try this relatively new colour and if so, what they thought of its usefulness on the artists palette (current exhorbitant cost aside)?

Protecting Back of Wood-Based Panels

Question asked 2018-04-11 20:05:35 ... Most recent comment 2018-04-17 13:39:30
Acrylic Alkyd Egg Tempera Environment Rigid Supports

Hi, 

Either pigmented shellac or a solvent-based, alkyd house paint (from the hardware store) were recommended to me as good barrier coatings to apply to the back of wood-based panels to protect them from humidity.   A few questions: 

- Would acrylic paint work as well as alkyd house paint to seal out moisture?  Would it make a difference whether it was an artist grade acrylic paint versus acrylic housepaint?

- Is a solvent-based, alkyd paint recommended because it seals from moisture more thoroughly than acrylic paint?  Or does the alkyd not necessarily seal better, it's just more durable?

Thanks,

Koo

Mounting finished painting on linen onto panel

Question asked 2018-04-17 00:23:13 ... Most recent comment 2018-04-17 10:00:31
Animal Glue Flexible Supports Rigid Supports

​Hello,

Is it possible to safely mount a finished painting on linen (Rabbit skin glue, Lead oil ground) onto a rigid support in order to avoid potential problems caused by the hydroscopic properties of the glue? If so, how can this be done?

Thank you!

Turpenoid

Question asked 2018-04-14 06:56:30 ... Most recent comment 2018-04-16 16:40:35

​Can you please explain precisely what "Turpenoid" is, and how it should and shouldn't be used in painting?  


Thanks,


Koo

Double Layer Canvas vs Hardboard Support

Question asked 2018-04-16 00:08:08 ... Most recent comment 2018-04-16 14:06:45
Rigid Supports Flexible Supports

I would like some advice on how to make an archival painting on a 48" x 48" x 2" two-layer hardboard or canvas support.  I plan to cut a symbol thru the top layer and fill the void back 1" to a back layer. 

In the 2" framed canvas, I plan to polyurethane glue 1" thick Expanded Polystyrene Sheet (EPS) foam to the back of the canvas.  I would then cut the symbol thru the canvas and EPS.  I plan to polyurethane glue & SSTL staple a tempered hardboard backer to the back of the EPS.  Looking at the front of the canvas, you would see the canvas with cut-out symbol and hardboard backer. 

In the hardboard support, the look would be the same, but the procedure would be the opposite.  I would polyurethane/staple a ¾" cradled hardboard surrounded by 2" plywood frame.  I would then polyurethane glue the 1" EPS foam and inset into the 1" cavity between the hardboard flush to the top edge of the 2" frame.  I would then cut out the symbol and polyurethane/staple the hardboard top to the 2" frame and over the EPS.  I would then wire-cut the EPS foam following the edge of the symbol down to the back hardboard and remove the EPS.  Looking at the front of the hardboard support, you would see the hardboard with cut-out symbol and hardboard backer. 

I would prefer the canvas support, primarily for weight which would be about 32 lbs. over the hardboard support which could be about 50 lbs.  I would follow the best practices for sealing/priming all surfaces prior to applying acrylic paints.  They both present archival issues and need further development and testing.  I have seen canvas cut thru without back support and know that this will be future archival nightmare.

Thank you for your advice.

Alla Prima question

Question asked 2018-04-15 14:35:32 ... Most recent comment 2018-04-16 13:56:49
Oil Paint

​I have a  question regarding Alla Prima work in oil painting.

Alla Prima is painting all at once, in one session.  However, if I take a break and come back and the paint on the panel is still wet (meaning comes off my finger like it is fresh, not tacky), can I paint into it or will this cause problems?  I am using M. Graham walnut oil paints which seem to be slow drying, unless I am using a lot of burnt umber (for example).  I am going to be working on a portrait that I expect will take 2-3 days working on and off during the day.  Is this okay, or do I need to wait for layers to dry before adding more paint to a section that has previously been painted?  I am not planning on glazing per se. I am using a limited palette of ivory black, titanium white, yellow ochre and cadmium red light.  My exerpience using these colors during life painting alla prima sessions is that the paint does take several days to be touch dry. I recently started mixing my M. Graham titanium/zinc white 50% with Wiliamsburg pure titanium white to cut the amount of zinc, and also to add a bit of linseed to the mix.  I haven't worked a lot with this mix yet and not sure how fast it will dry, but plan on using this mix in the portrait.

Thanks.

The "fat over lean" principle in alkyd painting

Question asked 2018-04-04 13:13:45 ... Most recent comment 2018-04-16 13:21:37
Alkyd Drying Oils Paint Mediums Oil Paint

When painting in oils, it is necessary to avoid putting layers of "lean" (faster-drying) paint over "fat" (slower-drying) paint.​ However, I'm not quite sure how this relates to using alkyd mediums with regular oil paints. The problem is that alkyds dry faster than oils, even though the mediums themselves contain drying oils as well. Therefore, it would seem that layers containing more medium (drying faster) should be painted before the layers containing less medium (drying slower), which is the opposite of using regular linseed or walnut oil in traditional oil painting. Is this correct? Or does it not matter, so long as the previous layer is touch dry (since the solvents in the medium would "bite into" the previous layer)? Also, I remember reading that if alkyd mediums are used, they should be used throughout, in all layers. Is that so?

Masking tape archivability issues

Question asked 2018-04-11 12:22:55 ... Most recent comment 2018-04-11 15:48:01
Art Conservation Topics Industrial and Non-Traditional Products Other Sizes and Adhesives

When working on various supports (paper, board, etc.), it's often convenient to use masking tape in order to produce sharp edges or just keep the work in place. However, I'm not sur​e whether this could have a negative effect on the supports. Most producers of masking tapes don't say anything about their content, and there's no concrete information I could find on the subject online.

If I use tape during painting/drawing and remove it afterwards, what are the chances that enough substances could migrate from it onto the support to cause issues in the future? For example, would enough of acidic adhesives migrate onto the surface of paper to cause it to degrade or accelerate its degradation in the future?

Archival Polyester Films

Question asked 2018-03-27 11:24:41 ... Most recent comment 2018-04-11 13:10:45

​Are there any archival quality/acid free polyester (acetate) films suitable for use with inkjet printers?  Images printed on these will then be used as overlays over lithographs on acid free paper.  Is this assemblage process compatible - would it be best to fix the lithograph with a protective spray?  Grafix claim their acetate printable sheets are acid free - but they only produce A4 sheets for craft purposes.  There seems to be mixed data on the archival properties of acetate as it is not a common method for fine art use.

Linen stretching and sizing best practices?

Question asked 2018-04-09 21:48:39 ... Most recent comment 2018-04-10 21:06:21
Grounds / Priming Oil Paint Flexible Supports

I would like to start using linen and prime my own canvas. I have a frame commercially made, with pre-stretched duck cotton canvas covered with acrylic ground and I would like to reuse the stretcher. What would be recommended as best practice? to stretch and size the linen over the commercial frame, or take off and toss the cotton canvas and just stretch and size the linen with rabbit skin glue following a traditional method?

so my question is, streching linen over an existing cotton canvas would help or hinder the longevity?

After thirteen years, I want to finish an oil painting.

Question asked 2018-04-06 14:42:52 ... Most recent comment 2018-04-09 12:57:28
Oil Paint Alkyd Paint Making

Good Morning.

In 2005 I painted an oil painting on a wood panel, work that I did not finish. Now in 2018I would like to finish that paint (unfinished).

I have read on the internet that it is not advisable to paint an old painting (in this case of the year 2005), for a subject of adhesion of the layers.

 

From the point of view of good practices and good conservation, is there No problem painting that panel(unfinished) after 13 years?

In the case that there is no problem in painting it, before painting it, I have to add some product so that there is good adhesion between layers (medium, oil, varnish, etc.)?. What should I do before painting?.

 

This painting is on linen support stuck to wood, board. The support was primed with Gesso acrylic. I painted it years ago with white alkyd titanium Winsor & Newton Griffin brand, The only alkyd color that was used was titanium white, the other colors that were used were oil colors (Winsor Newton Artist). The Also use medium for oil made with turpentine, linseed oil, and shiny varnish.

 

In relation to the above, and with the rule rule fat over lean:

Is it possible, advisable (from the point of view of good

conservation) to paint a panel using the lower layer Quick Drying

Titanium White Alkyd resin Winsor & Newton Griffin, and in the upper layer use oil paint Lead white (PW1 basic lead carbonate)?.  (I started painting with titanium white alkyd, and after thirteen years, I want to finish the painting with lead white oil paint).

 

I await your recommendations urgently.

Thanks.

 

Regards.

Cristian A. (artist).

 

Half Oil Ground

Question asked 2018-04-08 09:02:58 ... Most recent comment 2018-04-08 11:53:58
Grounds / Priming

​When I was in college in the 1980's I did course on materials and were taught a recipe to make a primer called a half oil ground. It followed the same recipe as a tradirional gesso ground; rabbit skin glue, calcium carbonate, titanium white only we added half the volume with boiled linseed oil and a egg yolk to help emulsify the mixture. 

Is this a safe recipe to use? I remember enjoying painting on it.

Thanks Steven Lewis

Rubbing or Grain Alcohol as a solvent

Question asked 2018-04-04 00:01:56 ... Most recent comment 2018-04-04 16:58:31
Health and Safety Oil Paint Solvents and Thinners

​Dear MITRA,

After scraping down my glass palette I have been using rubbing alcohol on a paper towel to clean it. Are there any chemical interactions here that would be unsafe to breath or any residue on the palette that would cause painting problems? It seems to be working great but I want to make sure I'm not doing anything unsafe. I try to minimize my Gamsol use as much as possible because I'm concerned about the potential health problems it can cause.

I also occassionally use baby wipes to clean off my pallette, which work shockingly well, but they have a fiberous texture that I've found creates more dust (which ends up in my paintings) than regular paper towls. 

Could rubbing alcohol or other types of alcohol be used as a solvent to clean brushes (like one does with a jar of Gamsol) or as a paint thinner in oil paintings themselves? I had been using Spike Lavendar as a medium for a while with happy results, but learned from MITRA that it's actually not proven to be any safer than Gamsol. 

Any insight into the use of alcohols in oil painting and cleanup would be much appreciated!

Thank you!

Lessening Dust Exposure to Drying Paint

Question asked 2018-02-02 16:51:49 ... Most recent comment 2018-04-04 00:16:14
Oil Paint Studio Tools and Tips

​I don't think this question has been discussed here? Can anyone suggest a good studio practice to lessen exposure to dust on drying oil paintings? (Not newly-varnished paintings, but during the painting of multiple layers of oil paint.) I've seen cloth draped over paintings in movies, but not sure if that was just for theatrical effect...and how would one keep the cloth from sticking to wet paint anyway...?

Industrial Canvases Sizing and Priming-How they do that?

Question asked 2018-03-31 21:27:03 ... Most recent comment 2018-04-01 21:09:24
Flexible Supports Acrylic Animal Glue Art Conservation Topics Grounds / Priming

​Hello everyone, great forum :)
I'm a student painter and nerd for art craft and science. As first question I wanted to ask about industrial canvases: what are the best according to your experience and what kind of materials have been used to be made? Do you trust some brands more than others? What kind of industrial pre primed canvas is the best in terms of durability?

I'm curious about this because I've been told that some of the best industrial canvases are still seized with some sort of rabbit skin glue prior the white priming, is that true?

Gum-oil emulsion medium

Question asked 2018-03-29 19:56:43 ... Most recent comment 2018-03-30 00:09:18

​Dear Mitra staff

I have been experimenting with egg-oil emulsion mediums to add to oil paint (not as paint vehicles as such) and recently saw a reference to “gum tempera emulsion” (medium or vehicle) in Ralph Mayer’s Artist’s Handbook p.278. I was excited by this as I’d rather use a “vegan” emulsion medium if at all possible. The recipe is as follows: 5 parts gum (Arabic) solution; 1 part Stand oil; I part Damar varnish and 3/4 part glycerine. I’ve tried this on clay bird and it seems to be working OK. However I recently read a comment by one of your staff to the effect that gum Arabic is not a natural emulsifier. Does this mean this recipe is actually not really sound and that I should stick with egg oil emulsion mediums? I just want to reiterate that I’ll be using the mixture as a medium with commercial oil paints. I’m not trying to make my own paints. Kind regards, Jenny

Coldpressed linseed verses alkali refined linseed

Question asked 2017-11-28 01:27:08 ... Most recent comment 2018-03-29 23:16:57
Oil Paint Drying Oils Paint Mediums

​Someone just stated in the "Painting Best Practices" facebook group that coldpressed linseed oil is mechanically superior to alkali refined linseed.
Is there any truth to this?

I'm not taking about yellowing, but film strength, flexibility and adhesiveness. (Maybe longevity too.)
Have there been any studies about this?

Casein as very diluted underpainting for oil painting?

Question asked 2018-03-15 13:20:14 ... Most recent comment 2018-03-28 21:50:55
Casein Oil Paint

​I now know that it's not advisable to dilute oil paints with odorless mineral spirits or other solvents for a washy underpainting, as there may be problems with binding (among other issues). Some folks advocate just painting from the tube without solvents, and scrubbing the paints around, but I enjoy the fluidity of a more liquid underpainting.

I've become interested in casein as an underpainting, and recently purchased and watched James Gurney's "Casein Painting in the Wild" video available from his wonderful blog, http://gurneyjourney.blogspot.com.  I noticed that with his casein plein air paintings, he starts out with a very watered down wash of casein mixed with water and then builds up with more opaque layers of casein. I'm wondering whether this very watery casein underpainting in itself (without the layers of opaque casein), painted on an panel primed with acrylic "gesso" would have sufficient binding power (both to the acrylic gesso and to subsequent layers of oil paint). 

Paper Repair

Question asked 2018-03-26 09:43:45 ... Most recent comment 2018-03-27 11:28:58
Flexible Supports Drawing Materials

I have a large drawing which has a crease in it.  It is a charcoal drawing on Stonehenge.  The crease is in an area of white, which has no charcoal.  I'm looking for advice on how to repair or minimize the crease, without damaging the drawing.​

Egg Tempera Conference in Munich

Question asked 2018-03-21 11:11:08 ... Most recent comment 2018-03-26 07:50:58
Egg Tempera

​Hello Moderators,

Last week there was an Egg Tempera Conference in Munich ("Tempera Painting Betwen 1800 and 1950").  Did any of you attend and, if so, can you report on any interesting findings or revelations?

Thanks,

Koo Schadler

Cadmiums in oil paintings, conservation.

Question asked 2018-03-21 17:28:03 ... Most recent comment 2018-03-22 12:19:39

Dear:

It is easy to find information on the internet about scientific research carried out on works by painters known as Van Gogh and Matisse. Cadmium yellow oil paint is undergoing chemical changes, turning the yellow paint into a pale compound, even changing the consistency of the paint in a salt. This seems to be concerns on the part of museums that see their capital degrade in a short time.

In the Just Paint article "Will Cadmium Always Be On The Palette? You mention it already:

"The difference between indoor and outdoor performance is thought to be due to the combination of environmental factors encountered outside; moisture, ultraviolet radiation and air. These cause bleaching induced by oxidation of the cadmium sulfide to cadmium sulfate. That is why the water permeable acrylic vehicle is prone to this effect, while cadmium pigments used in waterproof binders, such as rigid plastics, are not. "

Without delving into more details as each person can on the internet find expanded information on this matter and the reasons for my query, I raise my concerns.

1) What difference can there be between the pigments and the oil paints used in those art works and those that are commercialized today? PY 35 Cadmium Zinc Sulphide; and PY35: 1 with Barium according to the source. http://www.artiscreation.com.

In addition, I have not found any clarification on whether this unexpected effect of cadmium yellow, is also affecting the PY37, PO20, PR108.

2) Most artists are concerned about the permanence of their works, looking for materials and processes that allow their work to endure. From choosing the substrate, its preparation, the pigments resistant to light, etc. Why then, when mention is made of cadmium yellow, it is practically considered the best option because it is Highly lightfast, ... without taking into account that in a relatively short time it will be chemically transformed into something else.

3) Regarding the paint manufacturers that include it in their color charts (all), no information or warning about this problem is found and they always assign it the best permanence. Yes, best lightfast, but possibly chemically unstable, reacting with the atmosphere to become a salt.

In oil paint, the oil will not completely isolate the pigment from atmospheric factors, it will be less exposed than other paints, but even so light, air and environmental humidity will affect.

For some time I have adopted the Py74 as my yellow, and PY65 as its dark version. 

I take this place to turn my concern, for being a serious space and with professional people who care and occupy in these issues of art materials.

Congratulations for the work you do.

Best regards.

PD. My native language is Spanish.

 

oxidation of metalpoints

Question asked 2017-05-14 17:00:13 ... Most recent comment 2018-03-22 10:59:01
Drawing Materials Grounds / Priming Egg Tempera

I sometime expose my metal point drawings to sulphur (by placing them under a "tent" alongside an open jar of liver of sulphur) to speed up the oxidation and darkening of the drawing.  Does exposure to sulphur cause any detrimental affects to the materials of a metalpoint drawing (to either a paper or wood-based panel support; or to an acrylic or traditional gesso ground)?  Are there other recommended ways to speed up oxidation?  I had a cohort once tell me he sips whiskey while drawing and blows on his images - any truth to his claim that this speeds oxidation?  

By the way, which is correct: metalpoint?

Koo Schadler

cracked painting

Question asked 2018-03-18 12:52:13 ... Most recent comment 2018-03-19 10:16:26
Oil Paint

​I just had the horrible news that a painting I did 12 years ago has started to crack. This is what I can tell you about my process with this painting. I stretched unprimed linen then used some PVA size (tho maybe not enough because you can see white seeping though on the back) and oil primed it using oil ground. I then did an open grisaille using raw umber and burnt sienna and mineral spirits. I then glazed about 4 passes on the painting. I have always felt I obeyed the fat over lean rule, but sometimes in the heat of paintings one can skew up. Though I'm sure I didn't add mineral sprits after the grisaille and I'm sure I used medium, to some degree, each time . I don't know which medium I used. It could have been liquin or a linseed oil, stand oil, mineral spirits mix. I'm wondering if maybe the culprit could be the W/N Paynes Grey I used as it is so slow to dry. At that time I may have been using zinc , I'm not sure when I learned about the evils of zinc. Although from where the cracks are it doesn't seem like I would have used zinc white, I'm also not sure what I used for a varnish, tho I don't think that would be the cause. Any ideas? I'm have nightmares over my paintings now.IMG_2132.JPG

Can you mix casein emulsion with tubed watercolors?

Question asked 2018-03-10 13:41:23 ... Most recent comment 2018-03-12 22:17:18
Casein

Per the Richeson site, to make your own casein paints with your favorite pigments: "Mix Shiva Casein Emulsion with powdered pigments: Spray some water on your palette and scoop out the pigment with a palette knife. Mix thoroughly into a paste and add a few drops of Shiva Casein Emulsion. Mix again, and you're ready to paint."  http://www.richesonart.com/products/paints/richesoncasein/richcaseinfaq.html

I'm wondering if, instead of mixing the casein emulsion with powdered pigments (which I don't have on hand), I can mix it with the array of tubed watercolors in my favorite pigments.  These tubed watercolors obviously contain other things besides pure pigment, such as gum arabic and glycol.

Safe Layering with Oils

Question asked 2018-03-12 15:54:28 ... Most recent comment 2018-03-12 22:00:39
Alkyd Oil Paint Paint Mediums

​Hello MITRA folks. My question is about the use of oil painting mediums that speed drying time, i.e. alkyd mediums. Does proceeding with each next layer when the previous layer is just "touch dry" (and all layers are relatively thin) mean that, essentially, the painting layers will all be drying at the same time, similar to an Alla Prima approach, and there will little likelihood of crazing, cracking or wrinkling in the topmost layer later on? I see oil painters who use Galkyd and similar mediums in many, many layers in relatively quick succession, and always wonder about drying and curing hazards... Thank you for your thoughts.

Oil Paint Safety

Question asked 2018-03-09 14:49:12 ... Most recent comment 2018-03-12 06:04:24
Oil Paint

Hi, I work in an istitution that provides art education. They wish to ban oil paints because they believe it to be toxic.

Is there some facts or arguments I can provide them to dispell their belief?

Thank You

Steven Lewis

House acrylic paint interaction with artist acrylic ground/paint

Question asked 2018-02-08 16:53:46 ... Most recent comment 2018-03-09 09:54:24
Acrylic Oil Paint Industrial and Non-Traditional Products
While preparing MDF boards, I used two coats of acrylic enamel paint on the back and around the edges to provide some moisture protection. However, a small amount accidentally ended up on the very edges on the front side of the boards. Assuming I cover the front with three layers of acrylic dispersion ground, should I expect future failures of paint? I know house and commercial paints are generally not formulated with archival qualities in mind, but I was wondering if having them in the bottom-most layers would affect subsequent layers of artist-quality acrylics and oils?

New peptide free linseed oil

Question asked 2018-03-06 23:26:04 ... Most recent comment 2018-03-08 20:37:26
Oil Paint

​I'd like to hear the opinions of the experts on this linseed oil developed by the University of Saskatchewan.  It sounds great, but I'm not sure if the peptides are necessary for long term for stability of paint films. The news release is here:

 https://news.usask.ca/media-release-pages/2017/u-of-s-basic-research-leads-to-non-yellowing-flax-based-oil-for-artists-paints.php

Do I need a Lead Based Ground to Build a Strong Painting?

Question asked 2018-02-19 20:26:42 ... Most recent comment 2018-03-06 11:33:28
Oil Paint Grounds / Priming

​I am interested in building an archivally sound painting. I have been told that a lead based ground will strengthen the oil paint all the way through the paint surface, and therefore is the most archivally sound way to build a painting. I would prefer to build it in other ways and am wondering if I can be effective in matching the performance of lead. Here are my methods: A rigid, cradled panel support behind an evenly stretched 16 oz tightly woven canvas, or a high grade linen, Gamblin PVA sizing, front and back of the fabric, Golden Acrylic Gesso, five coats (slightly diluted), underpaintings in undiluted Gamblin FastMatte Alkyd Safflower oil paints, a series glazes of Gamblin FastMatte paints, diuted to glaze consistance with Gamblin Solvent Free Fluid and applied with high paint spread.

how do you fix charcoal on top of oil paint?

Question asked 2018-02-23 08:50:27 ... Most recent comment 2018-03-04 14:27:38

I've been trying to fix charcoal to the surface of my paintings, ie drawing on top of dry oil paint. The paintings are sometimes on linen and sometimes on hardboard/plywood, not large, about 30-40 cm. I want the charcoal to adhere permanently and remain on top, not be painted over. I know this is not seen as good practice but artists have done it and I wondered how it has been fixed. Obviously a charcoal line has a quality like nothing else and I want to retain that. 

I've been using Schminke Universal-Fixitiv 50-401, which apparently contains Benzotriazol-Derivat, dimethyl ether, polyvinyl resin, n-butyl acetate, UV-absorber, alcohols.  It seems to stick the charcoal, anyway for a while, but after 10 days or so, when I wipe the surface very gently some charcoal comes off, which it hadn't at the start. Schminke say their fixative isn't meant to fix charcoal permanently as a top layer, just to paint over.

I don't varnish my work because it may need to hang before it is totally dry and also I often return to a picture to rework something. I wondered whether the best way of keeping the charcoal fixed might be to wipe stand oil, or perhaps poppy-seed or some other oil, lightly  over the charcoal after fixing it first with the Schminke fixative? Would it in effect incorporate the charcoal into the oil paint?  I have tried it on one picture and it didn't smear but I wondered about permanence?



Creating a Stable Fabric Substrate

Question asked 2018-02-19 20:09:44 ... Most recent comment 2018-02-25 14:35:54
Rigid Supports

I am trying to build an archivally sound canvas substrate. How much chance is there of a 16 oz tightly woven canvas fabric slackening over time if tautly and very evenly stretched on a cradled panel with the strong fibre being placed in a vertical direction? Does the fact that it is a rigid support lessen the chances? If the fabric is tacked, and therefore quite adjustable, can this perform as well as a keyed stretcher for adjustments in the instance where it might need any adjustment? Over such a panel, is use of linen necessary to prevent destabilizing the substrate by slackening, or is it overkill?

Oil Paint Not Bonding?

Question asked 2018-02-16 16:04:02 ... Most recent comment 2018-02-19 18:39:00
Oil Paint Grounds / Priming Alkyd

I have an oil painting in progress that has a quite-dry, scrubbed-on Imprimatura layer of M. Graham Rapid Dry Titanium -- an alkyd oil paint which *does* have a small percentage of Zinc in it, according to the company, and which I used as an oil-based 'ground' alternative to something like a solvent-based ground because an acrylic-primed canvas is so dang absorbant and 'draggy' -- that was then painted over with a very thin raw umber layer with a small amount of alkyd medium. It's been a month now, the raw umber appears quite dry, but a fingernail can scratch off the paint on the high points of the canvas weave. I'm wondering if this is just happening within the normal curing and bonding time between layers of oil paint, or if the Rapid Dry used as a Ground was not a good idea, or there's some other red-flag reason not to proceed with this approach? Any thoughts would be much appreciated!

Resource: Historical textiles

Question asked 2018-02-16 16:14:36 ... Most recent comment 2018-02-17 05:06:45

​This may not be news to our conservation experts, but this researcher found me via Utrecht's social media presence when I posted about herringbone canvas. I think this is fascinating! https://handwovencanvas.blogspot.pt/

Best support currently available for painters

Question asked 2018-02-13 11:34:04 ... Most recent comment 2018-02-13 21:07:21
Industrial and Non-Traditional Products

​I know this is probably a too vague question... From what I've studied so far, it seems that ACM panels are an almost perfect surface to paint on (after being properly prepared for that).

Then a friend questioned my belief and told me that copper was actually superior to ACM panels, at least for oil painting. I have some doubts yet I couldn't fail to notice that the paintings on copper  that I've seen are much better preserved than the ones on other traditional supports.

What is the very best support for oil paints currently available?


Thank you!

Oil painting not drying

Question asked 2018-01-31 10:35:37 ... Most recent comment 2018-02-11 19:01:19
Drying Oils Oil Paint

​Hello all,

I hope you can help advise me on a problem I have. I painted a portrait 6 weeks ago using tubed paints (mostly W&N Artist Oils and Rembrandt) mixed with walnut oil and clove oil - no solvents used. It is painted in one thin fluid (but opaque) layer on a rigid support with two layers of acrylic primer with a strong tooth.

I have done many of these kind of paintings with no issue as the extended drying time is very useful. However on this painting once it was done I stored it in a cardboard box with ventiliation with 4 open areas covered with dust meshes (the kind you see on PC computers cases over the fans) to let out the evaporating vapours of the clove oil and to let in fresh oxygen.

I had no problem with the previous painting I painted and stored in this manner. However on this portrait I find that some sections are still not dry after 6 weeks (now outside the box in warm air for 2 weeks). It's not the whole paint film, it's almost like just the surface of the paint, and it's a thin (but opaque) paint layer I use anyway. Not all of the painting is affected, but the parts that are don't seem to be affected.

I can only thing I could think of as to what has happened is that the vapours of clove oil stayed in the box too long from this and the previous painting and degraded the polymers enough that the paint now will not oxidise.

I was thinking about my options, and I have come up with these so far:

1. Continue to store in a well ventilated and warm environment and see if it oxidises (not sure it ever will).

2. Try a spray siccative like Krylon Quick Dry Spray (and hope the paint does start to cross-link).

3. Wipe off what damaged paint I can and repaint.

4. Try to apply a thin layer of walnut / linseed oil to the affected areas (staying within each hue/value area as best I can) to try to add a drying oil onto that section and bond with the pigments remaining.

5. Nothing can be done. Redo the painting on another panel.


Does anyone here have any suggestions on how best to proceed?

Thank you!
Richard

Adhesive for Latex

Question asked 2018-02-08 09:22:35 ... Most recent comment 2018-02-08 11:52:24
Industrial and Non-Traditional Products Storage Sizes and Adhesives

​An artist recently contacted me to ask for a recommendation for a type of adhesive. They are using latex to create cast forms (think Eva Hesse) and would like to adhere panels of latex together. They are unconcerned with the inherant vice of the latex itself, but they are concerened about the compatability of the adhesive with the latex, its flexibility, comparative aging and of course its efficacy. Does anyone have any experience in this area and could they also recommend some basic and easy to implement storage ideas for when the work is not on display? Many thanks in advance.

Cotton v linen

Question asked 2018-02-05 22:36:01 ... Most recent comment 2018-02-07 17:05:54
Art Conservation Topics Flexible Supports

​When AMIEN was active, there was a consensus that cotton was fairly equal to linen as far as longevity is concerned.
It makes sense to me that linen would be stronger because of the longer thread length.
Is there any evidence from older paintings that there is a significant difference in longevity?

Acceptable types of papers for painting

Question asked 2018-02-06 19:21:16 ... Most recent comment 2018-02-07 12:28:41
Acrylic

​I am planning a number of works that involve painting in acrylic on papers prepared with acrylic gesso with 2 coats on each side.  These papers will be mounted to a sealed plywood panel when finished. My question is with the mounting and sealing, will 100% rag papers perform drastically differently than acid free alpha cellulose papers? Or can I treat acid free alpha cellulose papers as I might treat an extremely thin piece of tempered hardboard?

vinyl as binder

Question asked 2018-02-01 08:27:20 ... Most recent comment 2018-02-06 10:36:50
Paint Making Acrylic Other

​Hi,

At the moment I am testing Chroma Color from a Spanish factory called La Pajarita. It seems Artists like Dali have made use of their paint. I am trying to find out if it would be suitable for our Shop in School, of my Art Academy.

The one thing I am concerned about is that it is made with vinyl in stead of acrylic. I was under the impression that acrylics are superior to vinyls. As far as I know the plastcisers in acrylics are internal and often in pva's external, am I right?

According to them, however, when they were considering transition from vinyl to acrylic as a binder, their vinyl tested better then most of the acrylics from their competitors. And that is why they stayed with vinyl.

My knowledge is too limited, here. So I hope you people can help me out.


Thanks


Frixion pens for underpainting?

Question asked 2018-02-05 11:11:56 ... Most recent comment 2018-02-06 02:30:19

​Hi all,

I was wondering whether anyone had any thoughts on using Frixion pens for underpainting? The idea being that even under transparant paint the drawing can be made transparent with the application of heat..

I know that the ink they use becomes transparent at 65C and then stays that way until the temperature is lowered to -15C. 

I don't know if subjecting oil & acrylic paint on top of the ink to temperatures that high for enough time to activate the fading process in the ink would cause damage to the paint films?

Has anyone done any tests or studies on this, or seen artists using them for underdrawing?

Thank you,
Richard

Mounting Linen onto ACM

Question asked 2018-02-02 21:55:38 ... Most recent comment 2018-02-03 12:27:44
Rigid Supports Sizes and Adhesives

Hello. I had a very large linen stretched, because I like the tooth ofl linen. However, having never done anything this large, I did what I could but after sizing (1 coat GAC 400 and one coat GAC 100), the linen is VERY loose.

Two options: Re-stretch, or mount on Birch ACM.

I would prefer to mount on ACM, but I want to double check what the right process is here.

Is BEVA the approppriate adhesive to use? Does it matter what variety I use? Is there a better adhesive?

Are there any considerations when choosing an ACM? I would probably use Omni-bond, not sure if that brand is one you recognize or if BEVA on it's own will give me adequate adhesion.

Would it be wiser or easier to simply use a birch panel?​

Any help is very appreciated. I did search, but couldn't find an answer. 

Longevity of vinyl paints

Question asked 2018-01-25 14:02:29 ... Most recent comment 2018-02-03 11:27:02
Other
I have read that vinyl-based paints suffer some degradation when subjected to variable and harsh atmospheric conditions, and that they perform overall worse than acrylic-based paints. However, I couldn't find any information about works that are only meant to be kept inside. Would there be any significant difference? As an additional question, would applying a layer of acrylic medium over the vinyl paint add some protection?

Cleaning of oil brushes: non-drying oils and other questions

Question asked 2018-02-02 15:09:04 ... Most recent comment 2018-02-02 16:58:22
Oil Paint Industrial and Non-Traditional Products
I have read that non-drying oils (baby oil, sunflower oil, other cooking oils) can be used for brush cleaning at the end of a painting session, so long as they are then cleaned with soap to remove the non-drying residue. However, from my experience it's usually not possible to remove absolutely all of the substance that was on a brush. I would like to know if the usage of non-drying oils as a cheap (and healthier) alternative to solvents is advisable? Wouldn't it be better to use linseed oil and soap, or just soap?
I also remember another suggestion, which was to keep the brush tips submerged in oil (walnut or linseed) in a tray instead of washing them with soap and letting them dry. Would that be advisable?

Solvent toxicity in oil painting

Question asked 2018-01-30 17:25:17 ... Most recent comment 2018-01-31 17:31:55
Health and Safety Oil Paint Solvents and Thinners

​It's fairly easy to find information regarding Chronic Solvent-induced Encephalopathy/Chronic Painter's Syndrome. CSE is a nervous system disorder that is characterized by cognitive impairment and other psychological changes following long-term exposure to organic solvents, even below threshold levels.

A question that comes to my mind is: how much at risk are artists? All CSE studies I've read involved industrial painters/cleaners who inhaled a lot of xylene, toluene, mineral spirits, and other substances as a part of their daily work routine. However, most oil painters nowadays would likely be exposed to at least one kind of organic solvent on a daily basis as well. I was wondering if there is any information regarding the following products:

  • Odorless Mineral Spirits (the regular mineral spirits are already known to most likely cause CSE)
  • Turpentine
  • Oil of spike lavender
  • Naphtha

and other solvents likely to be found in the studio, with regards to the neurological damage they can cause? How much turpentine/OMS/etc. can I inhale on a daily basis without risking health damage? Is there any substance on the list which is safe given chronic exposure? (I read that oil of spike lavender is supposedly safe, but retain some scepticism, given its solvent strength)

Fat over lean and solvents

Question asked 2018-01-27 21:42:19 ... Most recent comment 2018-01-29 20:48:11
Drying Oils Solvents and Thinners Oil Paint

​Referring to your article about paint mediums and additives.
Link https://www.artcons.udel.edu/mitra/Documents/MITRA_Mediums_and_Additives.pdf

[quote]"Consider painting without using solvents. If you are using solvents, use smaller and smaller additions of solvent as you continue to paint subsequent layers to follow the “fat over lean” rule of thumb."[/quote]
I define the fattness of a paint film as the oil to pigment ratio, as does George O'Hanlon I believe. (PVC, Pigment Volume Concentration.)
In this respect, adding solvent to oil paint won't make it any leaner as the paint film with end up with the same PVC as it had originally before the solvent was added.
Granted, it does allow one to paint more thinly and therefore dry more quickly, but I can easily demonstrate that one can spread neat paint very thinnly and solvent added paint thickly.
So with this in mind, I question the premise that adding less and less solvent is adhering to the fat over lean rule.
I mention this because the text above is being quoted as proof that adding solvent makes paint leaner.
Is there any other rational that would give the argument more credibility?

storage of oil painting in dark for 8 years

Question asked 2018-01-28 15:16:11 ... Most recent comment 2018-01-29 10:18:29
Oil Paint

​After an oil  painting was stored in climate controlled facility for 8 years, yellow patches appeared in areas of the painting. The medium was alkyd based like Winsor Newton Oleopasto. The painting was stored in styrofoam and corrugated cardboard. Was there off gassing of the storage materials causing some yellow passages? Or, the effects of total darkness? Is there a way to correct without removing varnish and paint layers?

Polymerized oil as a final varnish

Question asked 2018-01-27 16:25:15 ... Most recent comment 2018-01-27 22:42:29
Varnishes

​Hello Mitra,

I would like to first say thank you everyone from Mitra  for their continual help.  

I recently heard of teachers at an academy, that I will not name, telling their students that they could place a final varnish of a polymerized oil like a stand oil.   They are told that this is actually what many of the old masters did and that other varnishes are not necessary.  Is a polymerized oil, like a stand oil, suitable for this?  During your experiences have you ran across any masters that did this? 


Best Regards,

Hector



Pinholes in Gesso, Golden's Flow Aid

Question asked 2018-01-26 08:31:50 ... Most recent comment 2018-01-26 09:08:55
Acrylic Animal Glue Grounds / Priming

Hi,

I have a friend who applies traditional gesso using a spray gun.  In recent batches she's been getting an especially large number of pinholes.  I've suggested various things that, in my experience, address pinholes (such as: letting the gesso sit overnight, once it's made, to let bubbles dissipate, then rewarming and applying it; not having too great a temperature differential between the gesso and support; applying the gesso very thinly; not waiting long between layers) but she is still having problems.  I don't use a spray gun and get no pinholes in my gesso, so I'm not sure what further to suggest.  

I'm wondering if adding a small amount of Golden's Flow Aid might help, but I'm not sure how acrylic polymers (albeit a very minimal amount) work within traditional gesso.  When I first began making gesso (25 years ago) I read about adding sugar (1 tea. sugar to 2 cups gesso) to help with pinholes, and I tried doing that a couple of times - it seemed to work fine but was so many years ago I can't really remember.  What about that idea?

Any other suggestions for how to address pinholes?

Thanks,

Koo Schadler

Lead-White production

Question asked 2018-01-11 19:49:01 ... Most recent comment 2018-01-23 01:13:28
Paint Making

​Brian and George, I was totally blown away by your fast, and thourough response. Thank you so much.

I limited my questions to two per visit like I have to at my family physician, but I actually have one more, also about Lead-White.

After repeated levigating, and grinding the Lead-Carbonate flakes, (in a ball mill with ceramic media), I start doing the rinses, usually about ten.  Residual Lead-Acetate is found to be present in at least the first four rinses when tested for with Sulfuric Acid.

I precipitate the Lead-Acetate out with Sulfuric Acid, or Sodium Bicarbonate, to end up with Lead-Sulfate and Acetic Acid, or Lead-Carbonate and Sodium Sulfate (environmentally safe concrete sealer).

The Lead-Sulfate is re-combined later with the Lead-Carbonate through a last grinding, followed by distilled water rinses. I read somewhere that this makes a better (oil) paint then if either one was used alone. 

I would very much appreciate your opinion on this.  BTW I will now also return the pigment from the foam to it`s respective Carbonate.

Thanks, Niq

linen on hardboard

Question asked 2018-01-17 11:40:07 ... Most recent comment 2018-01-17 20:00:28
Rigid Supports Sizes and Adhesives

Would a pva glue with a ph of 4 be suitable to mount primed linen to hardboard?​

longevity of oil mediums over acrylic

Question asked 2018-01-10 18:07:22 ... Most recent comment 2018-01-11 15:57:50
Varnishes Art Conservation Topics

​I would like to know if I need to prepare an acrylic painted surface for oil crayons to make it stable over time, and the best medium to seal the final surface.

  Also, is clear gesso the best medium to use over acrylic to prepare the surface for cold wax, what do I need to add to a low ratio of paint to wax? Do I understand correctly that using less than 2/3 paint to 1/3 wax is inadvisable without adding other mediums? I have found recipes online but no consensus.

Thank you


Combined oil mediums

Question asked 2018-01-11 10:46:55 ... Most recent comment 2018-01-11 12:51:04
Paint Mediums Oil Paint Solvents and Thinners

​I glaze using oil paint. I need to know if I have used Gamblin solvent free gel or fluid can I then use walnut alkyd oil on the same painting? I prefer walnut oil, but am not always allowed to use it if the venue is nut free. 

Lead-White acetate

Question asked 2018-01-11 00:13:39 ... Most recent comment 2018-01-11 10:42:19
Paint Making

​Does a "good" lead white need to have some lead-acetate left in it, or should it all be removed by repeated  and thourough washing ? Alvah H. Sabin in "White Lead its use in paint" 1920, questions this and proposes that up to as much as 5% acetate of lead should be left in, or added, to make a better paint. I am aware that he is talking about house paint, but has this merrit ?

In " Mannel des jeunes Artistes et amateurs en peinture" 1831 , M.P.L. Bouvier writes that to use lead-white for watercolour we must take a twig from white wood, peel the bark off, then whip up the lead-white pigment while in water, and only use the froth/foam. After testing the foam/froth from five different batches of lead-white paint I produced, I found no traces of lead acetate while the supernatant had the usual acetate content. Is the foam/froth a different make up then ?


Gilding With Oil Painting

Question asked 2017-12-16 03:20:42 ... Most recent comment 2018-01-09 14:27:42
Gilding

​Three questions:

1. I would like to add portions of burnished gold leaf to my oil paintings. I have oil gilded on canvas before and though the results were fine I much prefer the look of burnished gold. Which support would be best suited for this? Gessoed ACM? Gessoed Panel?  

2. I have read you cannot burnish oil gilding but have never seen the reason why. Why can't you burnish oil gilding?

3. I would also like to gild a ram skull. Archivailibity is less inmportant in this case but I would still be pleased to do it in an archival manner. Which mordant should I use and should I prepare the bone in any particular way?

sealing hardboard with shellac

Question asked 2018-01-03 18:14:30 ... Most recent comment 2018-01-04 15:57:49
Rigid Supports Grounds / Priming

​I plan to seal some panels of 1/4" premium, tempered hardboard (Alpena hardboard from DPI, not the big box store variety) in preparation for mounting 140 lb, wc paper to it with acrylic dispersion medium.  

The liquid shellac comes usually in a 3 lb cut (3 lbs shellac per gallon denatured alcohol).

How far should I dilute it with denatured alsohol?  50-50 ? 33-66? other?


Thanks for your help.

Richard

PS  I'm going back to shellac as a sealant rather than acrylic dispersion medium in order to minimize water and the warping of the 10 x 20", uncradled panels. 

Sun Bleaching Oils

Question asked 2018-01-02 23:10:06 ... Most recent comment 2018-01-03 20:41:30
Drying Oils Paint Mediums

​Hello Mitra,

I wish to bleach my linseed oils by letting the sun hit them.  I was curious to know if i could do this to an already polymerized oil like Stand Oil?  If not, I take it a cold press linseed oil is the best to use for starting.

My goal is to have a viscous clear oil which if need be I can then make it more fluid with a clear cold press oil.

 I know traditionally artist would wash their cold press oil and then thicken it and bleach it through exposure of the sun.  Should I do this? Is my Stand Oil a lost cause then? 




surfactants

Question asked 2018-01-02 07:41:09 ... Most recent comment 2018-01-02 10:03:21
Oil Paint Acrylic

​Do all paints have surfactants in them?

Gluing primed polyester canvas to board

Question asked 2017-12-31 09:23:24 ... Most recent comment 2018-01-01 06:35:36
Flexible Supports

​Happy New Year dear Mitra people

I have been struggling to find a way to glue primed polyester canvas to Masonite (Hardboard) panels. My problem is that the canvas is fairly lightweight and very prone to deformation/ wrinkles. My attempts to glue it to panel so far havent been very successful. I keep getting little air pockets under the polyester canvas, despite using a roller to push the fabric down and weighting it with heavy books etc. I’ve tried PVA, acrylic matte medium gel, solvent based contact adhesive and acrylic based contact adhesive. So far, the  best results have been with the solvent based contact adhesive—but the fumes are dreadful. (I am aware of the measures I must take to avoid hazardous exposure to them by the way) and I’m not too sure about it’s soundness from a conservation POV. I thought it might help to stretch the canvas on a stretcher, then stiffen it with rabbit skin glue, then remove it and glue it to a panel. Unfortunately it’s almost as difficult to stretch as it is to glue down. So I’ve given up on that idea. My next plan is to use rabbit skin glue to glue it to the panel. I am aware of all the problems associated with rabbit skin glue but still feel (or should I say hope) it will work better than anything else for my purposes. It also has the advantage of being reversible. My questions are : what ratio of RSG to water would you recommend? My old Painters Handbook (like all art technique books) contradicts itself. On one page it recommends the same ratio as normal RSG size (1 part rsg to 10 parts water). But then tucked away on another page, the suggested ratio for RSG as an adhesive is given as 3 parts to 10 parts water. I seem to remember that Ralph Mayer recommended a recipe that was similarly stronger for RSG as an adhesive as opposed to as a size, But I can’t find that reference currently despite looking for it in my old book.

"vehicle" used in making oil and acrylic paint

Question asked 2017-12-31 00:11:06 ... Most recent comment 2017-12-31 01:18:22
Oil Paint Acrylic

​What are the ingredients in making the "vehicle" for oil and acrylic paints? What are the chemicals in making acrylic and oil paints? I understand that the colors are made from differing chemicals and this is a complex question.

Books

Question asked 2017-12-30 20:46:36 ... Most recent comment 2017-12-30 20:59:18
Technical Art History

Hello Mitra Conservators,

Could you so kindly list technical/technique books that you would highly recommend?  

For example the N.G. Technical Buletins, and Sir Charles Eastlakes book come to mind, but im sure there are others and maybe even better ones that Mitra could recommend.

I recently heard of one by Mary Merrifield titled, "Medieval and Renaissance Treatises on the Arts of Painting,"  but im not sure if this is something Mitra Conservators would put on their list.  

Thanks you and Take care

Inhaling paint fumes

Question asked 2017-12-28 21:01:06 ... Most recent comment 2017-12-30 11:07:45
Oil Paint Acrylic

Are paint fumes bad for your health? If so how and why?​

Old mold stains on unfinished canvas. Safe to resume painting?

Question asked 2017-12-27 16:15:15 ... Most recent comment 2017-12-29 21:22:07
Oil Paint

​Hello Everyone, I am seeking advice about old dried mold stains on stretched gesso-primed canvas.

A few points:

  • The canvas is one I began 20 years ago and has been in storage since. When I retrieved it recently from storage, there were mold patches on both front and back of the canvas. (the front is gesso priming on cotton duck. The back is not primed; just raw cotton)
  • The mold is not extensive, only in the corners near the edge.
  • The moldy patches are on both the front and back side.
  • The mold is not heavy, it just appears as a light stain behind the image.
  • The mold appears to have dried years ago. It does not appear to be advancing, but the stains remain.
  • This painting is an underpainting, a single color of very thin paint (washes with oil paint & turpentine)
  • There's no heavy layer of paint on this canvas yet, just the thin wash drawingwhich is quite transparent. The mold stain appears behind the transparent underpainting. I could easily finish the painting which will cover the mold.

Questions:

  1. If the mold is fully dried, is it safe to go ahead and paint on this canvas, as is?
  2. Or should I try to remove the stains before I resume painting on this canvas?
  3. If I do finish this painting, will there be subsequent damage from the mold being 'trapped' beneath new paint?

Thanks in advance to anyone to offer me some guidance with this.

Cheers.

Merry Christmas and Thank you!

Question asked 2017-12-24 04:45:25 ... Most recent comment 2017-12-24 16:28:57

Just want to say Merry Christmas and a great big thank you for everyone's help here. It's really reassuring for artists to have your help and advice (especially when it's out of your own time)!

Thank you!!​

oil and acrylic paints

Question asked 2017-12-20 17:05:50 ... Most recent comment 2017-12-20 17:48:37
Oil Paint Acrylic

​I would like to know what is in them when we buy them. The medium(s) that turn them from a pile of chemicals to a liquid paint in a tube or jar etc.

Moisture or greasy film on duralar with Acylic ink painting

Question asked 2017-12-17 17:47:56 ... Most recent comment 2017-12-19 16:25:05
Ink

​Will Indoor air exposure reduce a Moisture buildup and greasy film on the exposed duralar surface of an Acylic ink painting? Moisture and film develped on a painting within a frame when the duralar moved towards and pressed against the glass inside the frame. Is there something safe to use to remove the film.

Kremer Primal AC35 was used on the ink area.

Acrylic Painting on Metal ( from the “ground” or “ primer” up)

Question asked 2017-12-15 19:44:40 ... Most recent comment 2017-12-18 22:39:48
Acrylic Grounds / Priming Other Paint Mediums

​I am making some “ Calder like” Mobiles but instead of just spray painting them I’m interested in painting them using Acrylic paint.  Has anyone had experience with this and if so what is your experience/ pitfalls etc.? As well, I would like to know what kind of Primer or Ground that I would have to apply as a first protective coat ...I.e. once the metal is cleaned can I just spray on an off the shelf rust free Primer paint  or is there a material that I could use that would work better...e.g. gesso, medium etc?

Thx. Hy

Can I use soapstone dust to make gesso?

Question asked 2017-12-15 23:09:45 ... Most recent comment 2017-12-18 10:25:41
Oil Paint Grounds / Priming

​Hello,

I've been working on a soapstone carving and have produced a ton of dust in the process. I was wondering if I can use it in place of marble dust to make gesso? Would it be a stable ground for oil painting?

Durability of Watercolors vs Oils

Question asked 2017-12-14 21:23:38 ... Most recent comment 2017-12-17 12:28:47
Gouache Matting, Framing, and Glazing Oil Paint Watercolor

​Hello MITRA folks ~ From a conservator's standpoint, can you tell me if there is justification for the wide-spread perception that watercolors are "fragile" and a "poor long-term investment" relative to an oil painting? I've always reasoned that an oil painting is *far* more prone to damage and degradation in both the short and the long term compared to a well-framed watercolor (modern lightfast paints, acid-free materials and UV glazing), since there is, at best, only a thin varnish to protect the oil's surface. Thanks for your thoughts.

Modern secco technique

Question asked 2017-12-14 10:47:16 ... Most recent comment 2017-12-16 19:04:32
Paint Mediums

​Has there been any modern improvement upon casein secco painting media after buon fresco (lime plaster) wall painting. Specifically, are there synthetic media (acrylics or alkyds etc.) that work well with lime? I was curious to know if anyone may have tried Zecchis "secco" paint that indeed contains an acrylic binder, however I am not sure what else may be in it. and i am not sure that it was intended for lime plaster buon fresco.

Cardboard as a surface for acrylic

Question asked 2017-07-09 17:43:58 ... Most recent comment 2017-12-15 20:04:20
Acrylic Rigid Supports Sizes and Adhesives

​I want to try using thick, solid cardboard as a surface for acrylic painting, but I can't get any information about its archival properties (lignin, acidity) from the manufacturer. I found a recipe on an acrylic paint manufacturer's website that calls for coating the entire sheet with a couple of layers of gloss acrylic medium-varnish so as to make a layer onto which one can paint. Supposedly, if any problems arise in the future (from what I know, it's inevitable with cellulose), a conservator will simply be able to dissolve the cardboard and reline the acrylic painting.

I would like to ask how viable this idea is.

Also, I thought about whether it would be more likely to work if I:

  1. saturated the cardboard with something (gelatin/methylcellulose/PVA/wall paint primer?), then
  2. gave it three layers of gloss medium (first diluted 1:1), then
  3. put on two layers of acrylic ground

and then painted on it? I'm not sure if three layers of medium plus two layers of ground wouldn't be too excessive.

Graphite into Oil Paint

Question asked 2017-11-30 13:09:30 ... Most recent comment 2017-12-10 10:30:58
Oil Paint Pencil Drawing Materials

​From a durable standpoint, can you tell me if drawing lines into wet oil paint with a graphite pencil is a sound practice? (On both stretched canvas and on panel.) Ultimately, the finished paintings would be varnished. I've Googled this question and come up with nothing...thank you!

Pigment Oil Ratio

Question asked 2017-06-15 16:48:30 ... Most recent comment 2017-12-09 22:02:38
Oil Paint Paint Additives Paint Making

​GReetings, 

When making oil paint or modifiying oil paint with additives, how do you determine the ratio of pigment to oil, say titanium white with marble powder to linseed oil? 

There is a point when the paint becomes very thick and will even roll off of the mixing plate glass, and this is obviously too much pigment to oil. Are oil absorbtion rates needed, if so are these online?


Thank You

Stapled Corners of Stretcher Bars

Question asked 2017-12-08 18:53:25 ... Most recent comment 2017-12-08 22:05:00
Flexible Supports Studio Tools and Tips

​I recently had occassion to remove several less-than-satisfactory paintings from their stretcher bars (in preparation for attaching new canvas) and discovered that these brand-name, pre-stretched canvases had been stapled on the corners of the bars on the front side. Am I understanding that this practice of stapling the corners of stretcher bars totally defeats the function of "wedges" for adjusting loose canvases? Thanks for your thoughts.

Scanning electron microscope image of sunken in oil paint

Question asked 2017-12-08 05:34:33 ... Most recent comment 2017-12-08 16:32:06
Oil Paint

​Can anyone please point me towards a scanning electron microscope image of the surface of a sunken in oil paint swatch, and preferably an image of a glossy swatch for comparison, that I could use for a teaching slide? Thank you.

Gamblin PVA Size

Question asked 2017-12-05 22:08:25 ... Most recent comment 2017-12-06 12:45:58
Sizes and Adhesives

In 2015 I contacted Gamblin asking for directions on a substitute product to RSG for sizing canvas.  The recommendation I received were instructions, developed by Robert Gamblin and Ross Merrill, former head of Conservation at the National Gallery, in point form.  After a few steps on how to glue canvas to a wood panel, Step 6:  Apply Gamblin PVA size to protect the surface of the canvas with one penetrating coat.

I decided to purchase the PVA Size and after a few tests, and problems with the ground being too absorbent, I decided to apply 3 coats instead of 1, sanding and scraping before applying the last coat.

On a Facebook forum I was informed that Gamblin PVA size had been tested by Sarah Sands (article dated 2013, Preparing a Canvas for Oil Painting | Just Paint,)  She tested the PVA size along with other products, and her findings showed that Gamblin PVA Size performed poorly, both in terms of flexibility and strikethrough.

I am a bit puzzled by this:  Gamblin is providing me with instructions with big names undersigning them, plus "National Gallery" and the "Canadian Conservation Institute" are mentioned on the labels and online.   But then you have Sarah Sands, doing an honest test, showing that the Gamblin PVA size should not even have the name 'size' on it.  I am no expert, but I can read a chart.

My question is, what is going on here? 

Tips for working with catagory II and III lightfast-rated pigments

Question asked 2017-12-05 14:05:54 ... Most recent comment 2017-12-05 23:03:50
Pigments Oil Paint

​Hello all,

I have long wondered about certain pigments still used in quality artist paints that are rated as less than excellent in terms of lightfastness: in what situations will they tend to fail, and how might we best use them to achieve lasting results? Some of the pigments I have in mind are PR112 (Napthol red), PY3 (Arylide Yellow),   or even  NR9 (Madder Lake). It's my understanding that pigments such as these are much more prone to fade in tints, but I'm wondering if there are any applications that are considered truly lightfast, such as in glazed top coats etc..

This question is primarily about these pigments in oil paints but i'd welcome any insights regardless of medium.

Thank you very much in advance for any advice you can offer, and thank you all for the work that you do!

Bob

Acylic "Gesso" drying time

Question asked 2017-11-19 11:56:20 ... Most recent comment 2017-12-02 17:17:43
Acrylic Grounds / Priming Oil Paint Rigid Supports Flexible Supports

​In the Resource section (Grounds & Primers) MITRA states that, "Even though acrylic grounds/paints appear to dry within 24 hours, moisture continues to evaporate from these materials over an approximate 30-day period." Does this mean that supports (both canvas and panel) primed with Acrylic "Gesso" should not actually be painted on (this would be for oils) until *after* this 30-day period has passed...?

Mediums

Question asked 2017-01-03 15:41:54 ... Most recent comment 2017-11-30 09:04:46
Paint Additives Paint Mediums
I don't know what to make of the claims of a medium made of copal resin that is modified with heat  and mimics the charactoristics of the older fossil forms of copal or so says its makers. It is relatively new and is a gel. Is this possible? I have read about the more desired effects of the older (fossill ) forms of this resin and would like to know about the virtues and shortcomings of copal in general.

Oil Paint on Shellac

Question asked 2017-11-23 19:22:07 ... Most recent comment 2017-11-26 21:00:27
Oil Paint Rigid Supports Grounds / Priming Acrylic

​Greetings MITRA folks. Can you tell me if oil painting directly on a shellaced panel is an accepted and durable practice? I know of at least one company which sell panels that have been "sanded and shellaced on both both sides and edges with a wax-free shellac," and they are advertised as a "ready-to-use painting support." I know of both acrylic and oil painters who use these particular panels, but I do not know if they are adding an oil or acrylic ground over the shellaced surface before proceeding with oils. Knowing only of shellac from a furniture sort of standpoint, I would have thought that shellac as a surface for oil paints *directly* would be too slippery and would have poor long-term adhesion. Would you kindly set me straight on this subject? Thank you! 

calcium carbonate

Question asked 2017-11-22 14:19:04 ... Most recent comment 2017-11-26 19:14:00
Chalk Paint Mediums

​Hello Mitra,

I wish to mix calcium carbonate to my paints to give them more body and also to maintain them a bit more transparent. Is their a specific calcium carbonate that I should purchase for what i want to do? Or is it all the same?  Chalk? Marble dust? etc?

Can I mix it directly to paint from tubes ,or should I start from scratch with powder pigment?  

Thank you ,

Hector



Walnut Alkyd Medium

Question asked 2017-03-13 10:36:30 ... Most recent comment 2017-11-26 13:20:53
Alkyd

I looked at previous posts but still find the advice I've seen on using alkyd mediums a bit confusing and contradictory. On one hand I've read that it is best to use alkyd mediums only in lower layers because you want faster drying layers under slower drying layers. This makes sense to me. However, I've also seen recommendations from manufacturers to increase the amounts of alkyd medium in subsequent layers to maintain fat over lean (more flexible over less flexible?) but that seems to contradict the slow over fast drying concept. Ultimately, I would like to use M. Graham solvent free  walnut akyd medium in the underpainting/blocking in and then straight oils in subsequent layers. Would I need to worry about a) adhesion between the first and second layers or b) violating fat over lean/ more flexible over less flexible? 

oil paint medium

Question asked 2017-11-18 16:16:32 ... Most recent comment 2017-11-25 08:49:15
Paint Additives Paint Mediums

​I usse oil glazes over a monochromatic egg tempera underpainting.tand Oil (1part Sstand Oil and 6 parts english turpentine) is not satisfactory. Normally my woerk requires 3- to 40 very, very thin oil glazes. Can you recommend a workable reciepe? Alklyd and other such "synthetic materials" are not satisfactory for me.

Painting thin long lines in oil

Question asked 2017-11-11 11:19:05 ... Most recent comment 2017-11-20 22:07:03
Oil Paint Varnishes

What did the old masters use to paint whisker thin long lines with oils? I have seen work by several Dutch masters but also the French Academics like Jerome and company who were able to manipulate paint and produce incredible details in a miniature scale, as if they were using a micron pen loaded with paint. I am trying to keep it simple, and I don't want to get into resins or magic media. I have found so far the best combo is to paint over a couch of linseed oil with paint + stand oil. The best brush so far is the size 0 spectre by W&N, but I am sure that are better brushes out there that work best for this purpose.  I know from trying that a lot of the success is in the manipulation of the paint and having a steady hand.  Correcting the shape of the paint with another paint, working in layers. Smaller brushes may produce better results + practice.  I am able and have produced similar details in my still lifes but the scale is not the same. It gets to a point where the detail is so small that I am not able to do in oils.  But if it is a resin, which one would you use.  My friend uses Amber from Donald Fels and Venice turps by Kremer pigments. Thank you.

Oleo resin mediums

Question asked 2017-11-19 11:16:06 ... Most recent comment 2017-11-20 13:57:41
Paint Mediums

​ I was trained in a 15th century glazing technique that tries to mimick the process of the Van Eyck brothers. Sir Charles Eastlake alongside with the technical bulletins from the National Gallery mentíon the usage of resins in their mediums. The National Gallery bulletin particularly mentions pine resin, not just for the Van Eyck brothers but also for later flemish painters like Rubens and Van Dyck. Do you happen to know specifically what pine resin is? I currently use dammar but i'm not sure what pine resin actually is.

Linen vs cotton for large scale

Question asked 2017-10-25 10:54:17 ... Most recent comment 2017-11-18 12:35:57
Flexible Supports Oil Paint

​I've read that cotton canvas shouldn't be stretched at larger sizes for oil because it's too flexible, but that a heavier cotton can make up for what it lacks in strength. How does 15oz cotton compare to linen at sizes 8ft and above?

Thanks!

Ampersand Museum Clayboard for Scratchboard

Question asked 2017-11-16 13:20:58 ... Most recent comment 2017-11-16 15:45:16
Rigid Supports

Is it true that the hardboard used for the museum grade clayboard used for scratchboard is acid-free? Do I need to worry about outgassing? When I painted an "X" across the back to help prevent warpage, the Golden Titanium White acrylic paint immediately turned yellowish in hue. Why? As a precaution, should I coat the sides and back with GAC 100+500 (since it's chily in the house)?​

Sealing the back of Hardbord with GAC

Question asked 2017-11-15 19:19:37 ... Most recent comment 2017-11-16 12:26:50
Acrylic Rigid Supports Oil Paint

​This question is directed mainly at Sarah Sands (though anyone can feel free to weigh in): 

Are there any particular concerns with using GAC 200 to seal the back and sides of unbraced Hardbord panels? I've tested a lot of different finishes for this purpose, and consistently find that GAC 200 performs better than just about anything else in this role. My criteria are two-fold: I'm looking for a coating that will provide some moisture resistance, and also one that will act as a sort of consolidant to strengthen the Hardbord (particularly the edges, which when damaged are prone to fraying). 

Strengthening the Hardbord is probably the most important concern for me; in general, I don't find Hardbord to be all that reactive to humidity changes, but it can be vulnerable to physical damage, especially when dropped. With a couple of coats of GAC 200 on the back and sides, it seems much more durable. The cured GAC makes the edges very hard and, well, solid. I can drop a panel from eye level onto a hard floor--on a corner!--and it suffers no visible damage. An unsealed panel dropped in the same manner invariably ends up with a dented corner that imediately starts to fray. 

The fact that the GAC dries relatively quickly is also a plus. I've gotten similar results with oil-based polyurethanes, but they require at least four coats to build to a film on Hardbord (which is very absorbent), and so drying time becomes an issue. Being able to seal the back of a panel in a day (rather than several) is helpful. I've also tried GAC 100, but it dries to a somewhat tacky surface, and does not harden the edges of the panel to the same degree that GAC 200 does. I know that GAC 200 is supposed to be more brittle, but it held up well to my impact tests. 

So I guess the question is whether or not this is an acceptable use for GAC 200. Also, will it remain stable as a surface coating on the back and sides of a Hardbord panel, or should I top-coat it with something else?

Some questions about working on copper

Question asked 2017-11-08 11:25:44 ... Most recent comment 2017-11-08 15:11:26
Oil Paint Rigid Supports Grounds / Priming

​I've searched here on the topic, and also read the "rigid supports" document in Resources (which is a wonderful reference), but I have a few additional questions about working on copper. 

1. I'm using relatively thick copper (14-gauge etching plates) and working fairly small (maybe 11x14" or so, down to 5x7"). Is it necessary to brace supports of this size, or would it be sufficient to put a lightweight (floating) backing board behind the plate in the frame--perhaps Gatorfoam, or a layer or two of museum board? 

2. My process to prepare the surface of the plate: degrease with denatured alcohol, thoroughly abrade the surface with sandpaper or steel wool (with the aim of completely stripping the surface to expose fresh metal), vacuum off any copper dust, then degrease again, making sure that all dust and residue gets removed. Then allow to dry, and prime. Does that sound about right?

3. How about where the copper is not covered by primer/paint? Like the back and sides? Can I just let that oxidize, or should I seal it with something? Renaissance Wax, maybe? 

4. I assume any oil-based primer will work? How about an alkyd primer, like Winsor & Newton's Oil Primer? I have a few small test sheets on which I tested some straight lead carbonate in linseed oil (RGH), a lead painting primer that contains some titanium white and driers (Rublev), and the Winsor & Newton primer. All three dried very quickly (the W&N primer was touch dry in a matter of hours). I'm guessing that the copper is a drying catalyst? The Rublev primer turned very green upon drying; I don't think that it was a matter of surface prep, because the RGH lead primer is right next to it on the same sheet of copper, and it didn't change color at all. The Winsor & Newton primer took on a slight green tint, but it's barely noticeable. Is this sort of thing common? Something to worry about? I don't think I'd use the Rublev primer, since the color change in that case was considerable. 

5. I skipped the oft-recommended garlic step, just on the basis that I have been able to find a consistent or empirically supported reason for its use. Some sources say that it helps to "etch" the metal (though it is unclear how, since garlic is not acidic). Some sources say that it might serve as a wetting agent (which makes more sense, except for the fact that copper doesn't seem to need a wetting agent--it takes oil paint really well, with no beading). Some sources say that it helps the paint bind to the surface chemically, rather than just mechanically, but I don't think that's correct. Don't oil films exchange ions with copper? In any event, the idea of putting an aqueous paste between the metal and primer seems like a bad one to me, but perhaps there is a purpose for this step that I haven't considered?

Thanks!


-Ben



Isolating varnish

Question asked 2017-11-06 14:54:53 ... Most recent comment 2017-11-07 20:05:12
Drying Oils Varnishes Oil Paint

​Could you please talk a little about the practice of using isolating varnishes between layers of paint?
Personally I don't do it, but some advocate it so it would be good to have some authoritive documentation to refer to.

Watercolors without Glass?

Question asked 2017-11-02 15:35:27 ... Most recent comment 2017-11-03 18:10:01
Art Conservation Topics Gouache Matting, Framing, and Glazing Studio Tools and Tips Varnishes Watercolor

​Hello MITRA folks...Would you speak to the issues from a conservator's point of view (especially concerning long-term cleaning, repair and UV protection) for the growing trend to varnish, wax and resin-coat finished watercolors as ways to avoid the cost and biases against "works under glass?" Your perspectives are much appreciated.

New digital technology uses in conservation of art.

Question asked 2017-10-28 15:55:13 ... Most recent comment 2017-10-30 10:11:35
Art Conservation Topics Other Scientific Analysis

Hello, im a MA student currently working on some research projects. I would like to ask you for some advice (if this is not the place just tell me).

One of the research im beggining with is about 'new digital technology uses in conservation of art' (3D scanning, ink-jet transfer reintegration, 3D reproductions, etc) . I was looking in to related bibliography or other information but there is not much of it, so I would be gradefull if you suggest some information or examples of new digital technology used in conservation, or if you know any book or institution (i.e. factum-arte) regarding this topic.

Thank you.

The colours in "Girl with a Pearl Earring"

Question asked 2017-09-27 15:45:45 ... Most recent comment 2017-10-28 16:40:30
Photo-Documentation / Digital Printing Pigments Technical Art History

An interesting question for you!

​I would like to do a reproduction of one of my favourite paintings, Vermeer's 'Girl with a Pearl Earring'.

I have found the excellent close up scanned image that the Mauritshuis have in their collection:
https://www.mauritshuis.nl/en/discover/mauritshuis/masterpieces-from-the-mauritshuis/girl-with-a-pearl-earring-670/

I can see that there is a lot more detail in the darks than I've seen in other images. However I understood that the blue of the turban was made with natural Ultramarine and Lead White, yet the blue in the turban looks a little blue green to me, rather than blue red.

Other images I've seen have the painting with more of a blue-red cast on the turban and on other parts of the painting: 
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/Johannes_Vermeer_%281632-1675%29_-_The_Girl_With_The_Pearl_Earring_%281665%29.jpg

I was wondering if any of you knew if the colours in the real painting are more accurately shown in the mauritshuis scan, or in the second link from wikimedia.

Thank you!
Richard

Need for flexible paint layers on rigid supports?

Question asked 2017-10-24 16:52:44 ... Most recent comment 2017-10-25 15:51:53
Drying Oils

​I have always worked under the stricture that linseed oil based paints and mediums, with at least some lead white in the paint layer, produced the the toughest, most flexible paint layer possible.

However, considering that I work on rigid panel, not on stretched linen when this advice was likely first made... 

Q #1  Would it be adviseable to switch to safflower or walnut based oils and mediums instead, considering that they yellow less, or at least more slowly?

Q #2  How important is a flexible paint layer on a rigid support?


For people who are concerned with the slower drying rate of safflower and walnut, I have found that the slower drying rate can be mitigated by placing the painting into an enclosure with incandescent bulbs, which will bring the temperature up to F 90-100.

Q #3   Do you see any problems with placing the wet paintings in a warmer environment for more rapid drying?   


No added driers are needed. 


Thanks for your thoughts.  

Oil or acrylic dispersion primers for best adhesion on rigid supports?

Question asked 2017-10-24 17:05:07 ... Most recent comment 2017-10-25 14:46:59
Grounds / Priming Rigid Supports

​Q #1   Are there any advantages to oil primers over acrylic dispersion ones for creating the best adhesion to the paint layer on a rigid support?

The oil primer, I suspect, would create both a mechanical  and chemical adhesion to the paint layer, whereas the acrylic dispersion primer would create only a mechanical one...or is the mechanical adhesion great enough that it would easily suffice on a rigid panel?


Q #2  If using oil primers on rigid panels, would the primer need to cure for several months to a year before using?

Information in your "Resource" section suggested that the dried primer merely needed to resist the fingernail before using.


Thanks for your thoughts.

Several inquiries into Painting on Paper, and Oil Paper

Question asked 2017-10-14 15:13:18 ... Most recent comment 2017-10-25 13:33:58
Oil Paint

​Is Arches Oil Paper an acceptable support for an oil painting with a long life? Alternatively, do we know what makes this oil ready, in a way that is different enough from what you usually call paper, which is not oil ready due to the rot attack of oil to the paper fiber? (Perhaps this paper is a synthetic polymer?) I am aware of some other common problems associated with painting on non rigid supports, but am interested in using marouflage techniques to adhere to panels for greater stability. Is adhesion of paint on paper-in general- for impasto technique problematic?

If oil was the medium usually used for hand touching photos, do these have acidic oil rotting issues?


Sorry for the host of inquiry, I am a curious person:) Thanks for any ingith into the oil paper etc.

How useful are early 20th C books on art materials?

Question asked 2017-10-23 13:29:21 ... Most recent comment 2017-10-24 00:17:23
Technical Art History

​I have studied art materials off and on since 1990 and own copies of several of A. P. Laurie's books and those of D.V. Thompson, Ralph Mayer, Cennino Cennini, etc.   I am still interested in the historical development of art materials and practices over the centuries but do not take them seriously as sound, modern studio art practices.   No search for the elusive "secret mediums" of the old master here.

Q #1   Except as a study of the history of art conservation/art materials, how useful are these books to the art student wishing to use the most permanent materials and practices?  


So many of the materials discussed are either discontinued, replaced with more permanent ones, changed in chemical composition but with the same name, etc,  or altogether unavailable, that it seems as if it would only serve to confuse the new artist.   I know that it did years ago when I first started studying them and my mind often swam with conflicting advice.  


Q #2   With more recent research and knowledge of art conservation and materials, how far back can we depend on books on art materials and practices?   20 years, 40 years, more?


Q #3   Ralph Mayer died ca 1980, so how reliable are updates to his books?


Its a shame that we do not have more authors who are well versed in chemistry to help with the technical aspects like A.P.Laurie but The Artist's Assistant , by Leslie Carlyle, Archetype Publications, 2001, while not a painting methods book, has a lot of useful, modern  information on many older practices and art materials.


Thanks for your thoughts.



Henry Ossawa Tanner Painting Techniques

Question asked 2017-10-05 20:11:57 ... Most recent comment 2017-10-19 11:47:31
Oil Paint Other Paint Additives Paint Making Scientific Analysis Studio Tools and Tips Technical Art History

I am in the copyist program at The Met, copying The Flight into Egypt by Tanner, link below:

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/16947 

In searching for more information about Tanner's techniques, I came across this 2011 presentation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWxErF_nzd4

My questions are specifically about the content from 33:20-34:46. 

I'm trying to figure out two key techniques. First- the dragged paint technique. Brian Baade mentioned this briefly in the presentation for the Near East Scene-Mosque in Tangier painting. In trying to achieve the same effect, I can't seem to get my paint to break. I buy my pigments, not make my own. Do commercial pigments come with too much oil? Is there some way of getting a dryer paint? Second- the impasto texture of the paint in The Good Shepherd. Brian Baade mentions that he doesn't know what method was used to apply paint, but I thought I'd ask about what tools/techniques were found to produce the most similar result.

Thanks,

Karri

Charcoal and oil how to "fix"

Question asked 2017-10-16 16:16:57 ... Most recent comment 2017-10-17 13:11:47
Varnishes Oil Paint

​I want to do a painting (on canvas or on acrylic-gessoed paper) in charcoal and oil but I'm unsure how to "fix" it or varnish it.  I love charcoal and usually just use it for the sketch underneath the oil and then paint over it but what happens if I do a painting that has a combination of areas with only charcoal on it, some areas that are paint only, some areas that are paint and charcoal together, and some areas with charcoal over the paint? The oil would be very thinly applied. Would I use a spray varnish at the end to "fix" it because a brushed-on varnish would lift the charcoal? If on paper, should I frame it with a good space between the glass and artwork? If y'all think that charcoal and acrylic paint would be better for this type of art, what would I use in that case to seal it? Thank you for this helpful site. 

Lapis Lazuli extraction - Fra Angelino natural ultramarine recipe

Question asked 2017-10-13 10:35:14 ... Most recent comment 2017-10-13 12:06:29
Pigments

Do you have an exact recipe for extracting Fra Angelico blue from lapis lazuli? A student of mine needs the recipe for his conservation degree, but his professor also wants more scientific quantities. Cennino cennini's recipe for natural ultramarine is too vague for their MA classroom. Ex: how strong should the lye solution be and it's ideal ph? How much ashes to water? How much lazuli to resin, wax and oil? Etc. Thanks

Painting Light to Dark

Question asked 2017-10-11 21:18:05 ... Most recent comment 2017-10-12 21:52:33
Grounds / Priming Oil Paint Studio Tools and Tips

​🍁 Fall Greetings, MITRA folks ~ Can you tell me if there is any technical reason to NOT paint light-to-dark in thin layers of oil with an alkyd walnut medium over a thin Titanium White (no Zinc) first layer on the acrylic gessoed surface? 'Durable' is my concern. Any thoughts would be much appreciated. 🍂

Andrew Wyeth's Ground

Question asked 2017-10-10 15:33:41 ... Most recent comment 2017-10-12 11:55:38
Egg Tempera

​My understanding was that Andrew Wyeth used a traditional chalk and glue gesso, learned from his brother-in-law Peter Hurd, under his egg temperas paintings.  I presumed this from various articles I've read; also from a Mr. McNeil (I think his name was), an older gent (he was in his 90s when I met him 20 years ago) who used to run a company called Permacolors and told me he made traditional chalk and glue gesso panels for "Andy".   However someone else recently told that Wyeth worked on caesin gesso. Can Dr. Joyce Stoner (or anyone who knows) corroborate what ground Wyeth worked on?  

Thanks,  Koo Schadler

Dispersants & Egg Tempera

Question asked 2017-10-10 12:35:23 ... Most recent comment 2017-10-11 17:51:41
Egg Tempera

​​Many years ago I bought a product called Disponil from, I think, Kremer Pigment in NYC - it worked great at combining hard to wet pigments with water.  I haven't been able to find Disponil again.  I now use Golden Paint's Universal Dispersant.  Am I safe in presuming that the Golden's product is compatible with egg tempera (for pigments that resist wetting)?  Any other comments on dispersants and egg tempera?  

use of 4F pumice to create tooth in acrylic primers

Question asked 2017-10-10 11:04:40 ... Most recent comment 2017-10-10 18:26:00
Acrylic

​I've heard that  a little 4F pumice, added to  acrylic primer, creates a smooth oil painting surface on rigid panels but with a little more tooth to grab onto the paint.   Acrylic primer alone seems a little slick for me, but I do not necessarily need great absorbancy.  

Any problems?

Would this surface be too abrasive for bristle or sable brushes?

Would the pumice increase absobancy? 

Thanks for your thoughts.

pros and cons of using sized, cotton wc paper for oils

Question asked 2017-10-10 11:46:05 ... Most recent comment 2017-10-10 16:39:02
Flexible Supports

​Do you see any delamination or other problems with oil paintings made  directly on PVA sized, 140 lb, cotton wc paper, rather than on an acrylic primed paper?


I've been using sized, 140 lb,  cotton wc paper for oil studies and small paintings for for 18 years without problem.   The paper has a texture that I enjoy and I size them on one side with 2 coats pH neutral PVA size, (75% water-25% PVA glue), as suggested by Robert Gamblin.   The size is allowed to dry in between coats. 

I do not apply an oil or acrylic primer as it tends to smooth the very texture that I like and I can collect hundreds of small plein air studies and sketches on paper, for reference, without the massive weight and volume that mounting on hardboard or dibond would entail.   The paper is stiffer than the same on unstretched linen so that studies can be more easily be handled.

On occaision, I mount them on panel for sale.   Again, no problem in the years that I have had paintings on paper mounted on panel, but I thought that I would check with you anyway.    

I realize that the primer would likely be more absorbent and may create a better mechanical bond with the paint layer, but I've seen so many plein air studies of 18th - 19th C masters painted and/or mounted on a lot worse supports and often without sizing.

Ok to use acrylic primer under lead oil primer?

Question asked 2017-10-08 04:40:02 ... Most recent comment 2017-10-10 15:50:19
Grounds / Priming

​Dear Moderator

I am trying to find a way of working that produces the best possible combination of characteristics for my way of working I currently have a thin linen which I want to adhere to panel once I do a decent painting on it Because it's fairly thin it's not taking the acrylic size well despite using a good acrylic matte medium in two coats which I've previously tested and used without problems With this linen however I'm getting strikethrough of oil paint on tests I've made Consequently I thought I'd try sizing it with the same medium then applying a couple of layers of good quality acrylic primer to prevent this strikethrough and then a final coat or two of my preferred lead oil primer Does this seem a reasonably sound given that ultimately it will be adhered to a panel? PS sorry most of my punctuation keys are refusing to work! 



Does sanding the size reduce its functionality?

Question asked 2017-10-06 19:28:03 ... Most recent comment 2017-10-06 22:12:49
Sizes and Adhesives

Dear Moderator. I am trying to find a way to get a smoother surface for portrait painting in oils as I'm regularly encountering lumps and bumps in my lead oil primed linen. I've tried gently abrading the raw linen, pre sizing,  with a pumice stone, which did help, but now find the acrylic size I've applied is quite rough to the touch. I'm using Liquitex matte medium diluted 1:1 with water and plan to apply 2 coats. I know about the need for a size to penetrate the fabric rather than act as a distinct layer. I'm not trying to achaieve a glassy surface just a smooth one. By the way, I intend to glue the painting to a panel once it's finished. I'm concerned that using sandpaper or pumice stone on the size will actually remove the size to the point hat it no longer performs its function of sealing the canvas. Is this a legitimate concern and if so what can I do about it?  

Mounting copper supports

Question asked 2017-10-06 11:18:16 ... Most recent comment 2017-10-06 13:00:52
Rigid Supports

​Hello, 

I found a great source for copper supports and am familiar with how to prepare them.  I was curious though, as metal supports become a bit more pliable at larger sizes, what sort of glue would be recommended for mounting them?  I wouldnt want one to get accidentally dented from the front or back once framed and finished

If mounting to wood, should I glue 100% of the surface to take into account the woods hygroscopy?  Or would it be better to 'hang' the mounting from the top, as one would when framing a drawing? I imagine it would be an easier process to mount to ACM panel.

Varnishing over ink on oils

Question asked 2017-10-06 11:37:19 ... Most recent comment 2017-10-06 12:17:19
Varnishes Ink Oil Paint

I have an oil painting that was signed in ink.  the written text was done with a micron colorfast brush pen/marker (recommended by one of the conservators here).  

It is now time to varnish that painting, just got it back, though completed in 2014.  I usually use regalrez (gamvar) to varnish these days- though I am slightly concerned that brushing over the ink portion will cause it to run/bleed?  I would like to make sure to varnish over the signature to protect it as well.

My current plan is to put a light aerosol spray varnish over the part in ink, perhaps two lightly sprayed coats, and let it cure for a couple of days before brushing varnish over the entire picture.  How does that sound to the mods here?  

Backing larger canvases

Question asked 2017-10-01 21:45:08 ... Most recent comment 2017-10-05 19:49:39
Flexible Supports
My paintings tend to be larger (7',8',9') and can be quite fragile. To help protect them, I have typically stretched the unprimed canvas over a cradled wood panel. My first question is whether or not this is actually beneficial, or whether the panel is unnecessary? The canvas rests over the wooden panel but is not glued down.

Recently I've been considering going back to stretcher bars (probably aluminum) and inserting a lightweight foam into the stretchers attached only to the cross bars, so the perimeter could still be stretched if necessary. My second question is whether or not this is a more permanent solution?

I do not have access to gator board, because I can't  find single sheets and the shipping is outrageously pricey. I do have access to foam core and 1/2" and 1" sturdy construction insulation foam (which seems more rigid and doesn't have a paper veneer).  My third question is whether foam core or the construction foam is worth using/and or dangerous in terms of off gassing etc. to the back of the canvas? 

My fourth question would be if you all have any better solution/suggestions I hadn't considered.

Thanks!

mounting oil studies on paper onto dibond

Question asked 2017-09-27 14:12:45 ... Most recent comment 2017-09-28 16:50:52
Rigid Supports

I would like to mount some 10" x 20", oil studies on pH neutral PVA sized, 140 lb wc paper, onto 4 mm dibond using acrylic dispersion medium.   I suspect that this is not optimal, but wish to frame the studies.

Will a water based "adhesive", such as acrylic dipersion medium, take hold of a roughened, non absorbent, dibond surface?

Am I headed for trouble?

Have done the same on gatorfoam, in  smaller sizes, without problem in the past.   The wc paper is stiffer than linen and doesn't seem to buckle or bubble in these small sizes, unlike linen.

Read the pertinent posts and information in the resources section, but it did not specifically address finished oil studies, on paper, being mounted onto dibond, hence the above question.   

As dibond is not absorbant, coating both sides of the panel should not be necessary, correct?

Thanks for your help.

Stable Instability. Pouring Oils..

Question asked 2017-09-13 05:33:23 ... Most recent comment 2017-09-26 23:14:56
Alkyd Drying Oils Grounds / Priming Industrial and Non-Traditional Products Paint Mediums Oil Paint Solvents and Thinners Rigid Supports Scientific Analysis Varnishes

Hello MITRA,

I might win the prize for bringing the most problematic query to the forum. The reason being that my methods of using oil paint are unorthodox, and I don't have the most scientific of minds. But please don't be too hasty to judge my methods. I have spent years of time and money getting to the point I have, and I am approaching you now seeking a little reassurance/guidance, but also knowing that you may not be able to give it.

Where to begin. Essentially, I dilute oil paint to the extent of being able to pour apply it (alarm bells ringing already, I know). I mix oil paint in different concentrations, with a combination of solvent and medium, that when poured onto a flat laid rigid support (these days a primed Aluminium Composite board), they interact and react against each other in desirable and unpredictable ways as they meet and combine- natural forms, even fractal patterns, appear within the very dilute paint. detail.jpg Once this layer is dry, after a few weeks, I paint glazes on top in a more controlled manner. 

What I seek in pouring oils, is a contradiction really: Stable instability.

I know the basics...that if you just dilute oil paint with solvent it can't bind properly and will chalk off.. so I've alwyas been careful to add oil/alkyd medium of some kind. I also know the fat over lean rule. But when I am throwing it all on together in one liquid layer- I can't really apply it that rule in the same way... 

The first year I was making paintings like this I used just solutions made of Turpentine and Linseed Oil, but I encountered drying and yellowing problems which I since have understood… I then adapted my method and started using drying mediums instead of linseed oil.

The main successful recipe I have used is:

- Liquin mixed with Zest it solvent, and Oil paint.

I think and hope I am using enough of each, for the paint to be just strong enough to cure and not peel off. It has has made many successful dry and even paintings over the last 3 years. It gives a very thin, flat surface, almost like watercolour, once dry. It has had and almost enamel surface which succesffully took glaze on top. But I do find that it has sunk in significantly since I changed primer to Thixtropic alkyd primer (which i thought would be better on Aluminium panels) but I have read that some primers make sinking in worse.  I used to use an oil primer, which I think I will return to. 

Q: Does it matter if a painting surface is sunk in... if I don't mind the look of it being uneven? Is the worry that any varnish will bond with the paint and not be able to be removed? – does this even matter? Can I use a few thin coats of spray retouching varnish to seal it and then later a proper varnish on top? Would that top layer of varnish be able to be removed if I did that? Is there a big danger of the painting yellowing /darkening a lot like this, even if I use thin layers of spray varnish? (winsor and newton).

The only problem with the Liquin is that it darkens over time, and actually has over quite a short period of time in recent paintings: compare detail (liquin) early 2017.jpg with detail (liquin) late 2017.jpg . I don't mind how it has changed and darkened.. but I would like to know if you think it will continue to darken more and more..

 Because of this darkening issue, but still wanting to avoid yellowing oil.. The second and most recent recipe I am trying is :

-'Drying Poppy Oil' with Zest it solvent and the oil paint. 

I have started experimenting with this because poppy oil is supposed to be good for pale colours… and I use a lot of white, very pale and muted colour fields. (which is another issue.. finding the best white for using large amounts..currently using Permalba Original. But thinking of trying lead white?! As if I hadn't already made like hard enough for myself!). drying poppy oil detail.jpg  I knew poppy oil itself would be far too slow drying for what I do, but thought the one with driers added to it might work? The early stages of the experiment and I have managed to achieve a dry and even surface.. glossier than the liquin ones. But I have yet to try painting glazes on top of this layer. Q: I have heard that poppy oil is more likely to crack, is this true also of drying poppy oil? In which case, would you say the surface I have now that seems smooth and slippery, will eventually crack over time?

So there you have it.

I don't know of any oil painters historically to employ methods like these, I do know artists that have done this kind of thing using Acrylic or resins. I can only find one other artist online that claims to be using a similar technique in oil: 

https://mauricesapiro.com/viscosity-series-poured-paintings/

But other than his comparative technique, I have not found any other information to help me navigate this process. I suspect that would be because it is unadvised to be diluting and pouring oil paint in such a way for all the potential instabilities it causes..  But it is partly the instability that makes me want to paint in this way in the first place! You see the dilemma!

I am happy with the paintings currently as they are.. in the short term, they seem stable. But I am concerned with the long term. I would obviously like to avoid Extreme yellowing and and peeling off of any paintings in the future! It is not the end of the world if they change and crack a little bit. But if it is going to be a lot, then I would feel unethical in selling the works. OR I do you think I should include a clause when selling that says I can not vouch for the archival quality of the work?

I am aware that what I am trying to achieve would be probably be far easier and perhaps more straightforward if I used acrylics instead- (it would sure be a lot cheaper!)… but I am not quite ready to give up on the beautiful effects I can achieve using oil paint, everything I have invested in experimenting. 

Any tips, or even educated guesses, on ways I could be doing this better - mediums that are good for making a strong but pourable paint film?! Ratios I should keep to? or other ways to keep the work stable for as long as possible... would be greatly appreciated. Thank you! sorry this has been such a long and confused essay...

 

Resin in Medium

Question asked 2017-09-26 13:51:45 ... Most recent comment 2017-09-26 17:59:21
Rigid Supports Paint Mediums

​I have been warned about the dangers of using Resins in mediums.  My understanding is that the issue is twofold:  on is in cracking of the paint layer itself ( possibly yellowing as well) and then also in conservation as the removal of the resinous varnish layer would also affect/remove a portion of the paint layer.  
 I want to be very specific to the Resin and meidum that I use becuase  the answer may not apply to all resins and mediums equally.   I use 2 parts sun-thickened linseed oil, 1 part turpentine and 1 part Canada Balsam.
 I have a number of questions. 1. With respect to yellowing, would that not be mitigated by the varnish layer which would protect the paint. If the varnish yellows, it can be removed and a fresh varnish put on, so that yellowing is not an issue for the paint layers themselves?
2.  To what degree is the cracking attributed to the rigidity of the painting surface and to what degree the resin in the medium?  Are the caveats for using Canada Balsam in the medium significantly reduced is the painting surface is a stable one?  Many thanks.



Cell Creation Safety in Acrylic Pouring

Question asked 2017-04-30 18:12:23 ... Most recent comment 2017-09-25 21:21:15
Acrylic Health and Safety Paint Additives

I am exploring the technique of acrylic pouring / flow acrylic / liquid acrylic art, and am looking for suggestions on cell creation. Many of the artists I have found online share assorted techniques such as using a silicone additive or floetrol, often in addition to using a heat torch of some kind. (A good reference would be the YouTuber Annemarie Ridderhof.)

My question is this: is there an additive or process that I can use in place of some of the above additives, that are odorless (I have medical complications that make me very sensitive to smells) and are safe to be used? I fear that applying direct heat to acrylic and whatever additives being used, can potentially cause fumes with dangerous effects.

For context, I generally use basic liquitex student grade acrylic paint with water on assorted sizes of stretched canvas.

Many thanks in advanced for any tips or suggestions!


Tempera Grassa

Question asked 2017-09-19 19:10:46 ... Most recent comment 2017-09-20 16:11:02
Egg Tempera

I'm planning some paintings in tempera grassa.  I've worked before in the medium, using an emulsion of egg yolk and sun-thickened linseed, almost equal parts each but a bit more yolk so it's water-soluble. The paint had good working properties, but I'd like a bit more hardness and shine, as one would get by adding dammar (which many tempera grassa recipes call for) but which I don't want to add (because of the negative attributes of dammar).  Is there another resin I could incorporate for a similar affect?  Would any of the modern synthetic resins be a possibility?

Thanks,

Koo Schadler

Paraloid B-72 as a size/sealant?

Question asked 2017-09-19 15:24:31 ... Most recent comment 2017-09-19 21:34:59
Oil Paint Sizes and Adhesives Rigid Supports

​I've mentioned this in another thread, but haven't actually phrased it as a question, and I am curious what the MITRA folks think about using a thin sizing of Paraloid B-72 to reduce the absorbency of either Claybord or traditional gesso, prior to painting with oils. I mean, I know that it works, from a process standpoint, but is it a sound practice? 

My own research on Paraloid B-72 suggests that it is one of the more stable synthetic resins and is not prone to yellowing, but like all acrylics, it is somewhat sensitive to solvents. Then again, it's incorporated into the ground (which in the case of Claybord, already contains acrylic resin), so is it really any worse than painting on an acrylic primer? 

Any new pigments on the horizon?

Question asked 2017-08-30 05:17:59 ... Most recent comment 2017-09-18 15:37:19
Pigments

​As some of you work for (or have close links with artist paint companies), I wonder if you were aware of any new paint pigments that are being tested by paint manufacturers at the moment? :)

copper and acrylic

Question asked 2017-09-16 10:41:07 ... Most recent comment 2017-09-18 11:34:42
Acrylic

​Hello,

I like using copper panels with oil paint. Do you know if copper panels and acrylic paint are compatible as well?

Thank you

Extra Gesso on a Purchased Gessoed Canvas?

Question asked 2017-09-09 22:42:34 ... Most recent comment 2017-09-18 09:57:01
Flexible Supports Grounds / Priming Oil Paint Sizes and Adhesives

​The store-bought stretched heavyweight canvases that I've used before have, it turns out, no sizing underneath their three factory-applied acrylic gesso layers. I am concerned about oil paint strike-through, and wonder if two (or more) additional layers of high-quality acrylic gesso would insure the canvas durability? I've read somewhere that acrylic gesso, being formulated for absorbancy, will always remain susceptible to oil strike-through. I'd love to hear your professional thoughts on the subject. Also, would you explain materials and technique for attaching a rigid covering to protect the back of a stretched canvas? Thank you so much.

Zinc White, Revisited

Question asked 2017-09-14 09:41:01 ... Most recent comment 2017-09-14 19:35:53
Art Conservation Topics Flexible Supports Grounds / Priming Oil Paint Pigments

I've read all of the references here regarding Zinc White (PW4), and it seems that the current opinion is that it is best to avoid all applications of Zinc White (PW4) for oil painting due to durability issues, at least until further clarification from new research studies is available. Am I understanding correctly? Thank you for the clarification. Susan

Different variants of PET as substrates for painting

Question asked 2017-09-05 18:12:26 ... Most recent comment 2017-09-11 15:15:23
Acrylic Oil Paint Rigid Supports Industrial and Non-Traditional Products

I have read that Polyethylene terephthalate is a good support for painting with acrylics, and decided to try painting on the sheet version of it. However, there are different variants of plastic sold under the general name "PET". I can buy:

  • APET (amorphous PET)
  • PETG (Polyethylene terephthalate glycol-modified)​
  • other variants with additions that claim to enhance UV-resistance, etc.

My question is: are all of these equally fine as painting substrates? From what I've read, the glycol-modified version doesn't become hazy or brittle when heat-treated, but I don't know what type of heat would be required to be relevant for painting. Also, I'm not sure whether any of them would be more likely to leach anything (glycol?), or be more susceptible to propylene glycol present in paints.

As a side question: is sheet PET compatible with oil paints?

Making Azurite Paint

Question asked 2017-09-06 18:35:00 ... Most recent comment 2017-09-06 19:12:08
Oil Paint Paint Making Pigments

​Hi, I recently purchased some azurite pigment and I want to mull it into paint, I have never done this, It is my first time and I am wondering what is the right way to do it? should I wet the pigment first in water, or should I just add oil to the dry pigment. Also what oil is recomended with azurite

OK to use a retouch varnish as a temporary varnish on a touch dry painting?

Question asked 2017-09-05 11:13:55 ... Most recent comment 2017-09-06 13:28:23
Varnishes

​Daer MITRA 

I have a painting that I finished recently which I wish to photograph for online entry to a competition. I had a fair bit of sinking in which I've tried to correct with oiling out, with reasonable results but there is still a certain dullness I would like to correct. I am planning to apply a good quality retouch varnish as a temporary varnish to my touch-dry painting as I feel it will bring out the colours etc. I couldn't find much information about using retouch varnish in this way (i.e. as a temporary varnish) in the resources section of MITRA. Apart from careful application technique etc, which I can read about here or in my Gottsegan book, is there anything I need to know or any reason to avoid retouch varnish? 

Concern re driers causing possible darkening in oil paints made with semi drying oils?

Question asked 2017-08-21 04:03:00 ... Most recent comment 2017-09-05 10:16:48
Oil Paint

​Dear MiTRA person

I recently purchased some oil paints by a reputable German manufacturer who sadly is not explicit about the oils used as binder. They admit to using a combination of oils but the feeling on online forums is that there is probably a preponderance of safflower or perhaps even sunflower oil. I have some concerns about using them because inevitably they must have added some driers and I am given to understand that some metallic driers like manganese can cause darkening in the paint film over time.  As is noted here in the resources articles, most paint manufacturers do add driers to one degree or another but the devil is of course in the detail ie how much? I've emailed them to enquire as to whether they have done any testing or have any reassuring information on this front but the response was a bit confusing as they kept directing me to information regarding the lightfastness of these paints. (And by the way they use the Blue Wool scale to assess lightfastness which as far as I know is very outdated!). Do I need to be concerned regarding darkening when using paints of this type? 

All about sinking in and oiling out

Question asked 2017-08-03 15:19:27 ... Most recent comment 2017-09-04 17:19:32
Oil Paint Drying Oils Paint Mediums

Dear MITRA,

I encounter a lot of sinking-in due to the large fields of dark colors I use. I’ve been oiling out with straight walnut oil as a final layer in some cases despite the warnings for several reasons: 1) The brushwork is sucessful and seems a shame to repaint. 2) I don't have six months to wait for varnishing. 3) Even when I do oil out, then reapint, I often get more sinking it. 4) It solves the problem in the short term.

I have read all of the posts relating to this topic (which have given me some good advise about other ways to mitigate the probelm) but still have several quesitons–

If oil is rubbed into an acrylic ground to deter sinking-in, how does this affect the “fat over lean rule”? If a canvas is prepared this way, can one still paint with a medium that has solvent in it?

If a layer of paint is oiled out with straight oil, does this mean one shouldn’t use any solvent in their next painted layer?

I prefer to use straight walnut oil for oiling-out because it is thin and adding solvent can lift the paint, but I have read on this forum that more bodied oils thinned with solvent are better for oiling out. Why is a bodied oil thinned with solvent superior to a thinner straight oil?

Can a black area of a painting be oiled out as a final layer? Is the inability for a conservator to remove this layer later on the only issue, since I assume true black won’t develop a yellow cast?

How long does the yellowing process take to appear if a painting has been oiled out as a final layer?

If cold wax is used in a medium to create a more even color field (i.e. less variation in shine), can the painting still be oiled out?

Thank you so much.

Removable Adhesive suggestions

Question asked 2017-08-31 01:46:50 ... Most recent comment 2017-09-01 17:51:00
Oil Paint

​Hello,

I am in the process of gluing earth magnets (and /or metal strips) to the backside (at the top) of both paper and canvas based paintings as a way to hang the works from metal screws. Is there an adhesive that you can recommend that could be both secure, and removable without damaging the support? 

In the future I'd like the option to remove the magnets/ metal strips for more traditional framing options, and am looking for an adhesive that has these properties.

(The paintings are oil on canvas, and oil on arches oil ready paper.)

Thanks!

Dark Yellowing in Egg Tempera

Question asked 2017-08-29 16:07:20 ... Most recent comment 2017-08-30 16:44:26
Egg Tempera Oil Paint

​Have a great question that came in response to an article on Dark Yellowing we put out:

"I realize that this is outside the scope of your study, but I am curious to know if the egg tempera medium undergoes yellowing when it is placed in a dark invironment."

Any knowledge of dark yellowing being an issue in egg tempera? Curious minds want to know.

Sarah Sands
Senior Technical Specialist
Golden Artist Colors

Is there a way to make copper resinate not to change colors

Question asked 2017-08-25 23:45:53 ... Most recent comment 2017-08-26 16:03:34
Art Conservation Topics Oil Paint

​I am wondering if there is a way to protect copper resinate from changing colors and turning brown, would an UV varnish help?

Egg Tempera and Cracking

Question asked 2017-08-15 16:50:47 ... Most recent comment 2017-08-25 14:34:21
Egg Tempera

​Hello MITRA,

This question is a bit complicated, so please bear with me.  I have a fellow tempera painter who's experiencing cracking in the uppermost layers of her paintings. It starts out as very faint, fine lines that gradually increase with successive paint layers; the lines grow and evolve into fine "craquelure", and eventually tiny bits of paint flake off (within a few weeks of application).  

Over the years I've heard from a handful of other tempera painters who've seen similar cracking, often (tho' not always) reported in areas of tianium white.  In general cracking (or craquelure) in tempera is rare, but with this most recent instance I'm recogninzing it as a problem for some painters and trying to understand it better.  I've come up with 5 reasons why cracking may appear in tempera paint:

 1. Excess binder. Too much yolk can create stresses as the protein molecules shrink with water evaporation.  

2. Too thick a layer of paint. Tempera initially dries through relatively rapid evaporation of its water content, so if too dense a layer is applied it can crack as it shrinks (akin to a dried-out lake bed). 

3. Adding too much water to tempered paint.  Once the paint is properly "tempered" it's possible to thin it significantly with water. However with TOO much water at some point the various components of the paint become so attenuated that it can create a weak paint film.   

4. Over saturating underlying paint layers with water.  Research I've read on the effects of various solvents (both spirit and water) on egg tempera indicates that they can induce swelling in the paint films. If a curing paint film is compelled to repeatedly expand and shrink, this stress can weaken the bonds being formed in the polymerization process and create cracks (at least this is how I understand it; I'm not sure about this one...  By the way, none of the other reasons I suggest for cracking apply to the painter with the current craquelure problem; however she really saturates her surface with watery tempera paint, so much that the ground stays cool when her paint layeras are dry to the touch, suggesting there is residual mositure within - this is why I suspect this reason for her cracking problem, but I'm not sure). 

5. Stresses in the ground and/or support. Cracks in the gesso and/or movement in the panel can telegraph up through paint layers.  

My questions to the forum are:

1. Has anyone else seen cracking in egg tempera paint layers? 

2. What do you think of the above reasons?  Do they make sense?  

3. Are their other potential causes of cracking?

Thanks, Koo Schadler

India Ink Underdrawing

Question asked 2017-08-19 11:48:53 ... Most recent comment 2017-08-22 21:59:14
Ink Oil Paint

​I've read somewhere that shellac-based India Ink can be used for underdrawing before proceeding with an oil painting. Is that durable? Would the ink have to be full-strength, not diluted? I'm looking for an alternative to a solvent-thinned underdrawing that would still show through an Imprimatura. Would an ink underdrawing have to be completely covered by oil paint to be durable? I've seen Golden's article (Just Paint, Oct. 1, 2015) on underpainting alternatives (acrylics, watercolors, safflower oil-thinned paint and egg-oil-water thinned paint) and always wondered if those solvent-free alternatives needed to be completely covered with oil paint in order to be durable? For example, would a perimeter line in a solvent-free underdrawing need to be restated with full-bodied oil paint in order to be durable? Thank you for any thoughts.

Caravaggio´s Technique

Question asked 2017-08-19 16:30:15 ... Most recent comment 2017-08-20 01:54:54
Oil Paint Art Conservation Topics

​Greetings,

Perhaps this is out of the scope of the conservator, but I was looking at some very high res scans of a Caravaggio and looking for some professional insight into his working methods. Here is the scan: http://www.haltadefinizione.com/en/gallery/caravaggio-bacchus

I know that reverse engineering a painting is difficult, but perhaps you have come across some convincing interpretations of how caaravaggio built his paintings- questions of source and optical devices aside, and I've read about the ambiguity of the incised lines- but can we speculate or measure his choice of grounds, layering process, glazing, mediums, working dark to light, etc? And this is obviously subject to change across works, but in this Bacchus, can you tell how he laid down paint to get to this end?

His modelling of flesh tone seems 'ponced' or stippled on with a glaze, it is so delicate and doesn't seem to have any of the brush marks the lights have. 

I've been reading V. Elliot´s Traditional Oil Painting, and he does some scholarly recreations of paintings, such as Bouguereau. Is there anyone that has does a similar analysis and receation of Caravaggio, that is accepted (I've seen some bad ones, and the work doesn't seem based on a grisaille to me)?


Thank YOU!

Cat Spray on Gessoed Boards

Question asked 2017-08-17 22:02:15 ... Most recent comment 2017-08-18 23:23:30
Grounds / Priming Other

​This may win the prize for the weirdest question... I have five maple panels that I sized and then later gessoed and left out on my porch to air dry. It's possible that a cat (or squirrel?) may have sprinkled them with their "marking fluid" while they were drying. (I've heard that cats are attracted to the smell of amonia.) There are a dozen or more shiny specs on each of the boards, which were laid end-to-end. And the peculiar and unpleasant odor is only slightly diminishing after a week and a half. I had thought maybe there was a reaction between the sizing and the gesso, but I think that would have resolved by now. So...if the panels have been sprayed, do you think it's a reasonable approach to clean them with vinegar and water 1:2? That's one of the home remedies that is suggested for spray on interior walls. I can wipe the specs off with straight water, but the odor seems to remain. I'm concerned about adhesion problems when I proceed with oil paint, or de-laminating further down the line. Alternatively, I could put another coat of gesso (water-based) on the boards, or an imprimatura of oil paint...? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!  :-(

Watercolor Paint Loss

Question asked 2017-07-13 10:14:14 ... Most recent comment 2017-08-18 12:41:36
Watercolor

A student recently showed me some watercolors of his that have a problem, hoping I could decipher it, but I don't know what's going on. Throughout several paintings there are areas where the paint is  (in his words) "disappearing" - initially the paint went on fine, but over time there are patches of paint loss that look a bit like a bug has been nibbling; or, another way to describe it, looks like someone pressed a paper towel with a squirrely pattern to areas of the paint while it was wet, lifting the paint (although, as mentioned, this problem didn't occur until after the paint had dried). Neither of these are the best description of the problem…I have photos, if there is a way to share images.  The paint loss is not limited to a single color and has occurred on several paintings with different types of supports.  All I could think of was minerals or salts in the water, precipitating out?  Any other ideas?

 

Thanks,

 

Koo Schadler

Sizing options

Question asked 2017-08-16 23:05:01 ... Most recent comment 2017-08-17 17:46:37
Sizes and Adhesives Grounds / Priming Oil Paint

​Wondering about a couple different sizing options
1. Gac 400 then two coats of Gac 100 then Rublev lead oil ground
2. 2 layers of Gac 100 then Rublev oil ground

How much of a difference will there be? Will the only difference really be in the canvas stiffness (with 1. being a stiffer canvas and 2. being more flexible)?

Will there be any difference in how the oil paint sits on the surface?
(For example) I do not like slick surfaces to paint on. I would like a semi absorbant surface. If I go with option 1, will the surface be too slick? Or will the overall surface be pretty much the same between the two?

Thank you so much for any help!!



Alternative Oil Painting Grounds?

Question asked 2017-08-11 18:33:34 ... Most recent comment 2017-08-13 14:09:17
Grounds / Priming Health and Safety

Hello MITRA folks,

Do you know if there are any alternatives to rabbit skin-based, solvent-based and acrylic-based grounds for both canvas and panels? I have read that methylcellulose can be subsituted, and a reference to shellac, but have read nothing definitive and scientific. This would be for oil painting, and I am looking for a low VOC, solvent-free, easy-to-use solution that would also be archival (or a support for oil painting that needs no ground (and no solvents to clean it) at all. 

Thanks so much for any thoughts!

Susan

Testing adhesion

Question asked 2017-08-09 14:26:38 ... Most recent comment 2017-08-11 19:14:16
Oil Paint

I was wondering if you have any advice/ways of testing adhesion between oil painting layers?  I have done a diy cross cut test with a razor blade and masking tape, but if I go by that thicker passages and impasto pretty much always fail, so it seems like overkill. On the other hand, a fingernail seems kind of weak, because I've not been able to scratch layers that I otherwise can peel or sand off relatively easily. 

Thanks

What mask should I use for mulling pigments?

Question asked 2017-08-08 17:06:40 ... Most recent comment 2017-08-09 15:19:08
Health and Safety

I will be mulling pigment and making paint for the first time and I want to be safe, what mask do you recommend me to buy (pigments might include vermilion, lead tin yellow, and azurite)

The role of oxygen in polymer formation of oil paint

Question asked 2017-08-06 08:08:18 ... Most recent comment 2017-08-06 12:04:35
Paint Additives Oil Paint Paint Mediums

​I have over some years been able to extend the life of oil paint on the palette and in small storage containers by the use of (Mark Carder's) Slow Dry Medium, in combination with the exclusion of air (oxygen). Mixed stock color is useable for two years and premixed values for two months in airtight glass jars.

If I were to place a wet oil painting in an oxygen rich tent (storage bag) would I be able to accelerate drying to the point I could varnish earlier than the recommended six months?

I were to place a wet painting and/or a wet palette in a carbon dioxide or argon rich tent would I be able to postpone the formation of a drying skin, thereby extending the open time of the paint and canvas?

Thanks Denis


Oil Painting on Shellac

Question asked 2017-08-03 21:34:36 ... Most recent comment 2017-08-04 12:13:01
Oil Paint Sizes and Adhesives

​How archival is oil painting on birch panels that are sized with a few coats of shellac? The panels are only 1/8inch thin and prone to warping as they are not cradled. Would shellac be alright to oil paint directly on top of if they were 1/4inch and cradled? If shellac isn't archival can you recommend a way to prepare panels that gives a similar feel when applying paint?

Painting and collaging on Aluminum.

Question asked 2017-08-02 22:36:10 ... Most recent comment 2017-08-03 20:53:52
Industrial and Non-Traditional Products

​I want to paint directly on Aluminum with Acrylic paint and also collage on the aluminum using Acrylic Matt Medium as the adhesive. I was told I should use a degreaser on the aluminum and than could directly paint on it. Would a solution of distilled vinegar, baking soda and water work as the degreaser. Do you have any other recommendations. I want the aluminum in places to show throught so I don't want to prime the aluminum.

Oil of Spike Lavender in Paintings

Question asked 2017-08-02 19:22:20 ... Most recent comment 2017-08-03 20:46:07
Oil Paint Solvents and Thinners Paint Mediums Drying Oils

I am an oil painter and replaced Gamsol with oil of spike lavender about a year ago in an effort to make my studio less toxic. I've been mixing about one part spike lavender to two parts walnut oil for my medium, and adding a bit more walnut oil to the mix for subsequent layers. (I clean up with saflower oil and Murphy's oil soap). This medium has been working fairly working well but I've had a hard time finding concrete information on the stability of spike lavender in paintings over time. I found a post on this forum that explained "Painting with large amounts of any essential oil can lead to the formation of a weakened paint film." I was wondering if anyone could please elaborate on this? For instance, what would a safe amount of spike lavender be? Further, I know that walnut oil forms a less ideal film than linseed oil, but I prefer it for its less-yellowing nature over time. Are there conservation concerns about using walnut oil and spike lavender in conjunction?

UV light protection

Question asked 2017-08-03 10:55:12 ... Most recent comment 2017-08-03 12:29:42
Oil Paint Scientific Analysis Varnishes Paint Additives Paint Mediums Art Conservation Topics

​I know that some varnishes such as Gamblin's GamVar and Golden MSA varnish have UV protection due to ultraviolet light stabilizer and filters. I presume that these are close to being transparent as it's used in a very thin layer of varnish.

Do you know of any process or product where similar light stabilizers and filters can be added to the oil paint itself via additions to a medium? Would this compromise the paint film? I was wondering if it would work to increase the lightfastness of the pigments and potentially could be present in greater concentrations than in varnish?

Wet Mirror Polishing of varnish

Question asked 2017-07-29 02:22:43 ... Most recent comment 2017-07-30 13:22:28
Varnishes Industrial and Non-Traditional Products

​I am interested in exploring the full range of sheen that can be obtained in art, from the mattest to the glossiest. I am painting on Dibond panels (currently with acrylics, but occasionally with oils). I am not particularly impressed by the usual gloss look of fine art varnishes. More and more I'm interested in this type of finish:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0pXjV4zGDM

But it seems that the best results are achieved by polishing with buffing compounds on top of 'super coating' varnishes (usually alkyd based?). The manufacturers claim that these super coatings are non-yellowing and flexible, chemically resistant etc. Here is an article:
http://www.woodworkingnetwork.com/articles/tips_for_using_super_coatings_127702208.html

I am aware that these varnishes will eventually scratch (or age) during the lifetime of a painting.
How can I achieve the highest possible gloss while still keeping up with the good practices of painting?
Are there any removable fine art varnishes that can be buffed up to this level of finish?

Cheers

Metalpoint Ground

Question asked 2017-07-28 09:38:44 ... Most recent comment 2017-07-28 12:31:03
Drawing Materials Grounds / Priming

​Hi,

A friend who is an experienced metalpoint artist recommends Golden's Pastel Ground for metalpoint; he says it has more tooth, he's able to get richer darks, and thus prefers it to Golden's Silverpoint Ground.  I got some of the Pastel Ground to try and discovered it's transparent, not opaque - and I need opacity to cover the MDF support I'm applying the ground too.  Any considerations to combining equal parts Golden's Pastel Ground with either Golden's Sandable Hard Gesso, or Golden's Absorbent Gesso (both of which work well for silverpoint and I already have in the studio)? 

I don't have Golden's Silverpoint Ground on hand, but may order to experiment with if it's sandable - can you get a readily sandable, perfectly smooth surface with that ground?

Thanks,

Koo Schadler

 

Alternatives to oiling out sunken oil paint

Question asked 2017-07-25 16:30:58 ... Most recent comment 2017-07-27 22:48:04
Oil Paint

​Hello,

I am working on some portraits where the accuracy of value is critical and for areas that have sunken in from previous sessions I have been oiling out by rubbing thin layers of linseed oil (I've tried raw, stand, refined, 50/50 linseed and Gamsol OMS) on the surface. I have read mixed reviews of putting an isolated layer of oil into the paint film structure, for fear of disrupting fat over lean, cracking, darkening, etc. It seems retouch varnish has similar concerns.

Is this oiling out (or painting into a couch) a problematic practice, and if so, how can the color be restored in a more structural way while working? 

Are there best practices to oiling out? Oil, technique ,etc.

Grazie Mille

Using oil paint that has skinned over

Question asked 2017-07-20 15:38:21 ... Most recent comment 2017-07-23 16:04:58
Oil Paint

​Greetings,

I came back to the studio today and some piles mixed tube colors of oil paint from yesterday have now 'skinned over,' though the paint below stil seems fresh and usable.

Is it problematic to use this paint, removing the dried skin, and painting with as usual? 

Does the paint below have the same properties as paint left on the palette without the skinning, or has the complexity of the oxidation of the oil now made this paint different somehow and less desirable, perhpas more lean...?

Gracias


Mounting works on thin paper

Question asked 2017-07-19 16:31:15 ... Most recent comment 2017-07-20 19:15:29
Watercolor Ink Gouache Flexible Supports
I would like to protect ink and watercolor paintings on thin rice paper (unsized Xuan paper) by mounting them. They are quite big - around 100x70 cm each. I'm not sure how to proceed with this - should I dry or wet mount? Is it better to use thicker paper (bristol) as backing, or maybe a fabric like polyester? Would methylcellulose glue be sufficient?

Zinc based ground

Question asked 2017-07-19 19:16:11 ... Most recent comment 2017-07-19 20:24:46
Grounds / Priming Oil Paint Flexible Supports

​Hi. I have a roll of oil primed linen from a company that describe their production process like this -  "For an ‘oil canvas’, zinc white is used as the primer, bound with linseed oil."

Given the issues associated with the use of Zinc what are your recommendations - use this product or not?

Many thanks.

Transparency in Paint films As They Age

Question asked 2017-07-15 13:53:10 ... Most recent comment 2017-07-19 11:45:11
Egg Tempera Grounds / Priming Oil Paint Technical Art History

Oil paints become increasingly transparent with age, due to changes in the refractive index of the binder, I believe.  For this reason, I've seen white grounds recommended as generally preferable to dark toned grounds (so as the paint grows more transparent, the light values in a painting aren't darkened by an underlying dark ground).  A few questions relative to this:

1.  I believe the same is true for egg tempera paints - they become more transparent with age, yes?  

2. Is it true of other paints?

3. Is there concern or evidence to show that the converse is true;  that paintings on white grounds, as they age, lose some of the depth in their dark values (because the white ground shows through the increasingly transparent paint), to the detriment of the painting's value pattern?

Thanks,

Koo Schadler

Testing for canvases that includes synthetics?

Question asked 2017-07-14 13:05:41 ... Most recent comment 2017-07-14 19:13:05
Flexible Supports Industrial and Non-Traditional Products Scientific Analysis

​Hello,

Does anyone know of or have access to tests of flexible supports that include synthetic canvases? I clearly remember mention of an ongoing test comparing flexible supports on the no longer available AMIEN forums. The thread was a discussion on synthetic canvas and indicated that at least some synthetics greatly out-performed traditional canvas.

I was so impressed that I eventually asked a textile designer for help producing a heavier-weight synthetic canvas that is wider and more affordable than I could find on my own. I've been working with this canvas for a few years, and recently interviewed the designer (Scott Bodenner) about the project. Talking to someone with a textile industry point of view was fascinating. There are differences in how testing is done for commercial textiles and also a concern for recycling and sustainability that I don't encounter much in reading about artist materials. The interview is posted on my own website at: 

http://sloweye.net/scott-bodenner-recycled-synthetic-canvas/

But I'd still really like to know how the test I saw mentioned on AMIEN turned out! Fingers crossed someone remembers what that was...

Atypical oils in oil painting

Question asked 2017-07-12 16:12:41 ... Most recent comment 2017-07-14 16:35:36
Oil Paint

What is the opinion on the usage of non-traditional drying oils? I have read about the usage of candlenut, perilla or tung oil in some art works, but there's not much I could find in terms of conservation issues regarding these.

Safe consistency of adding oms to oil paint

Question asked 2017-07-11 17:21:59 ... Most recent comment 2017-07-14 12:36:41
Oil Paint Solvents and Thinners Paint Additives

​Hola Mitra,

I have been looking for more information about the safe or recommended amount acceptable to thin oil paint with solvent. I'm using tube paint and odorless mineral spirits. In the past I have sketched in a drawing on top of the ground of acrylic gesso on canvas with a brown earth and liberally diluted the paint near watercolor consistency so that it really flows. (I then add straight tube paint or progressively less oms with the paint, and sometimes fatter glazes on that.) But recently I've read oil paint shouldn't be thinned beyond a whole cream milk consistency to avoid problems such as future delamination and breaking down the oil paint film (and polymers?). Personally I haven't seen problems in my paint films, not yet anyway, though sometimes it seems some tinted solvent has seeped through and is visible on the reverse side of the painting- like some stained spots...

More information surrounding this topic would be appreciated.

Specifically, are there established guidelines for how much oil paint can be thinned with oms?  Is oms even a good diluent for oil paint, or are other solvents preferred (Essential Oils, Turps, mediums with stand oil, alkyds) especially in this lower layers? If this thinned layer leaves the ground with much tooth available for thicker paint to adhere to, would delamination problems persist. And I've come across the idea that oms evaporates fully and thus doesn't alter the lean-ness of the paint once it's gone, is this true?

Thank you for any time you can space on this topic!


Gerhard Richter Paint Application

Question asked 2017-07-03 13:45:56 ... Most recent comment 2017-07-08 18:20:28
Oil Paint Paint Additives

​Greetings,

I would like to apply oil paint on canvas (large scale) in thick smears similar to Richter, but am looking for some insight into the best practices for this approach to avoid problems such as wrinkling, cracking, excessive drying times, etc. 

Do we know if he is altering his paint from tube consistency? Would this be recommended and if so what additives/ amendments? 

(Implict question: I know you recommend rigid supports for thick paint, but is there a practical solution for large paintings, say 4 x 6 feet?)

Mille Grazie

Sizing hardboard/fiberboard - hardware store products

Question asked 2017-07-03 12:49:24 ... Most recent comment 2017-07-08 18:11:40
Sizes and Adhesives Rigid Supports Industrial and Non-Traditional Products

"Artist quality" PVAs and other such sizing products are too expensive and hard to obtain for me. There is no BEVA/MSA Varnish/B-I-N either. What I can obtain are various acrylic primers made for porous surfaces, regular PVA glue (the manufacturer states that the pH is 6-7), as well as methylcellulose wallpaper glue and boiled linseed oil.

The acrylic primers are basically watery liquids that smell just like acrylic mediums. Their manufacturers typically state that they are made from acrylic dispersions, and that they are made for priming porous surfaces, unifying them and decreasing their absorbency - some add that they still let water vapor pass through after drying.

I was wondering which one of these would work the best for sizing before laying down a layer of (artist quality this time) acrylic ground. The acrylic primers seem to be the best option, but I read differing opinions about the properties of hardware store products. I know methylcellulose is a good size, but I don't know how well it would perform on surfaces like hardboards and fiberboards.

As for the boiled linseed oil, I'm not sure whether it wouldn't reduce the adhesion of the acrylic ground.

I'm open to suggestions if there's something else I could try.

Using dark brown pigments in lower layers of oil painting

Question asked 2017-07-06 03:10:50 ... Most recent comment 2017-07-06 18:28:16
Oil Paint

​Greetings,

I've recently read on another forum (NP) a great article that said oil paintings when possible should be made by using the most opaque colors in the lower layers and layered up toward more transparent pigments. However, it seems many paintings from the past used brown grounds or thinned brown (umber or sienna?) as a drawing color in the lower paint layer. (Another recommendation that was surprising to read was to paint from light to dark, and thus moving from light and opaque lower to dark and transparent upper layers.) 

Which pigments do you recommend "blocking in" a drawing in the underpainting, and is the opaque to transparent layering order generally accepted?

Is my read of many historical painting practice off, or do we just understand the chemistry better and have new best practices?

Thank You for this amazing resource!

CAS Numbers and safety information

Question asked 2017-06-29 05:56:17 ... Most recent comment 2017-06-30 08:26:07
Health and Safety

Looking through Safety Data Sheets for various art supplies, I have noticed a strange discrepancy between the information provided by various manufacturers. A good example is "naphtha (petroleum), hydrotreated heavy", with CAS number 64742-48-9. A basic search through toxicology databases shows that it is considered both mutagenic and possibly carcinogenic (1B), with numerous reported adverse health effects (https://echa.europa.eu/information-on-chemicals/cl-inventory-database/-/discli/details/115111). Yet, looking at the SDS for Gamblin's Galkyd mediums (https://www.gamblincolors.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/SDS-Galkyd-Galkyd-Slow-Dry.pdf), there seems to be only information about them being flammable, a skin irritant, toxic to aquatic life and causing drowsiness. My question is then: which information should I go by? Am I risking cancer or chronic painter's syndrome by using these mediums? It seems like the exact same substance that, in other manufacturers' products, causes cancer is safe here. How is that possible?

Botticelli Show at BMFA

Question asked 2017-06-29 10:42:26 ... Most recent comment 2017-06-30 07:13:07
Egg Tempera Flexible Supports Grounds / Priming Scientific Analysis Technical Art History

Yesterday I went to the Boston Museum of Fine Arts to see the show of Botticelli and his contemporaries.  It's a beautiful collection of work, and I marvel that the museum was able to get 500 year old paintings from Italy to Boston - a real treat. Given that the 15th c. was a transitional time for paint (egg tempera to oil) I was curious to see the labeling.  Most pieces were simply "tempera on panel"; several were "tempera on canvas"; a few were either "tempera and oil" or "oil". 

I wish labeling in museums was more consistent and specific.  However I appreciate that museums are generally challenged by finances, resources, time.  My guess is that different museums have different approaches and philosophies to analyzing mediums (it's not necessarily every museum's priority); a lender has to accept what the lendee says about a piece; there is not enough money for conservators to definitively analyze ever work in a collection; it's still difficult to say for sure what a 500 year old painting is composed of (especially if mediums are mixed, i.e. tempera and oil).  My questions are...

1. Any other thoughts on way medium labeling can be vague?  

2.  Some works (as evidenced by the brushwork and finish) were clearly egg tempera.   Other works looked so rich and painterly it was hard to believe they were just tempera; hints of tempera brushstroke were evident, but other areas were smoothly and thickly painted. Is it possible there’s some oil paint in the mix and the works  aren't accurately labeled?  Or would the varnish that was apparent on most of the paintings be sufficient to give these egg temperas an oil look?  Or maybe it's that the Renaissance masters were capable of a much greater range of effects in tempera than they’re generally credited with (i.e. they did more than just hatchstroke, as is often claimed)?  I’m trying to better understand what’s going on in these “quintessentially egg tempera" masterpieces (that, in fact, often don’t look like “quintessential” egg tempera). 

3.  A traditional chalk and glue ground lacks flexibility, and egg tempera paint become brittle with age – so I don’t understood how a 500 year-old egg tempera survives on canvas (i.e. Botticelli’s Birth of Venus).  Could there be some oil emulsified into the ground or paint?  I know the Birth of Venus is painted thinly (you can practically see the weave of the canvas in parts, it seems to me) – would the thinness of the paint layers be sufficient to deal with the flexibility in canvas?  Or are most temperas on canvas backed by a solid panel (tho’ I don’t think the Birth of Venus is….).  In short, how to explain egg tempera on canvas?

4.  As mentioned, much (most?) of the work appeared varnished.  Is there a way to determine which of the varnishes are original, which added in later centuries?  How do conservators address a Renaissance painting that enters their collection and has a varnish?

Thanks for your help in better understanding this wonderful but complex period in art history.  

Koo Schadler

Lint/dust stuck in my retouch varnish

Question asked 2017-06-28 20:07:54 ... Most recent comment 2017-06-28 21:48:42
Oil Paint Varnishes

​Hi everyone,

I have a problem and hope to get some advice from the collective wisdom here. I finished a painting about 2 months ago, and let it sit for a few weeks before spraying it with retouch varnish so that I could refresh the colours and get a decent photo. I then moved the painting into a spare room that is seldom used, and left it there to cure. Today I discovered that my husband went into the room a few days ago and moved the painting . . . he leaned it *face down* against a sofa. When I moved it today, it actually made a faint sound as I pulled it away from the sofa, something like pulling low-tack tape off a wall. :( It looks now like there is a spot where the paint looks a bit flat, and otherwise there is lint/dust that I cannot brush off with my fingers. Do I need to use mineral spirits and strip off the retouch? Or is there something else that I can use to clean the surface without disturbing the retouch? Thoughts? Advice?

BTW, in case it helps: I painted this one in layers, using a thin layer oleogel as a couch between layers. The retouch varnish is Winsor & Newton, because I've found that other brands (particularly Krylon) don't get along well with the oleogel.

Thanks in advance.

 

Jennifer

PBr33 zinc iron chromite - in oils

Question asked 2017-06-26 03:39:20 ... Most recent comment 2017-06-28 18:42:30
Oil Paint Pigments Scientific Analysis

​Hello,

I'm interested in using PBr33 due to it's very dark opaque nature.. It's used by Sennelier and Schmincke in a few of their oil paints. However as it's made using Zinc I'm just concerned it could make the resulting paint film brittle in the same way zinc white can.

But I don't know if the combination with the iron and chromite would avoid this issue.

Does anyone have any opinions on this?

Hardboard versus fiberboard for acrylic/oil paintings

Question asked 2017-06-05 05:50:42 ... Most recent comment 2017-06-28 17:32:02
Rigid Supports Oil Paint Acrylic Sizes and Adhesives

I have recently read that the outgassing of formaldehyde from urea-formaldehyde used to manufacture HDF and MDF is a problem when it comes to conservation, since it can influence the acidity of both the work and the environment, leading ​to possible degradation of the artwork. I also read (Getty's "Facing Challenges of Panel Paintings Conservation", part 3 by Paul van Duin) that urea-formaldehyde itself degrades over time and the author estimates its longevity (when protected from light) to be a couple of decades. In light of this, I was wondering if hardboard (wet process board) wouldn't be a better choice, since it doesn't contain UF?

On the other hand, I used to coat the panels I paint on with a water solution of PVA with a pH of 6-7 (according to manufacturer), and I read that PVA can be a source of acetic acid, but I'm not sure if this is relevant.

repair

Question asked 2017-06-28 10:17:57 ... Most recent comment 2017-06-28 15:18:39
Flexible Supports

​how best to repair torn painting on canvas

gluing linen after the painting is completed

Question asked 2017-06-25 01:04:07 ... Most recent comment 2017-06-26 18:58:10
Sizes and Adhesives Rigid Supports

​I am wondering if it is okay to use a heat press to mount linen to a panel using Beva 371 film after the painting has been completed. I like to glue it afterwards because not every painting works out, and I'd like only glue the ones that I (or a buyer) determines a success. I heat it at 150 degrees for 6 minutes twice, once to attatch the glue film to the board, and a second time to adhere the linen to it.  I am painting with oil paints using Gamsol and linseed oil as a medium, and painting without a lot of texture (which I have found that the heat press flattens), and gluing them to boards of MDF or hardboard. I have not noticed any issues, but am concerned that somewhere down the line the fact that the painting has been heated up might pose a problem. Additionally, I am wondering if I need to seal or size the support before I adhere the linen to it.  Thanks so much. This is a great forum. 

OIl penetration to wood support

Question asked 2017-06-25 21:15:17 ... Most recent comment 2017-06-25 21:53:43
Rigid Supports

​It is recommended to size and/or prime a wood panel (eg. birch plywood) adequately to prevent oil penetration. What exacly would happen to the panel if a substantial amount of oil was absorbed into it due to inadequate or no panel preparation (bare wood).  Would the acid in the oil damage the wood?

Oil Mordents

Question asked 2017-06-18 13:00:16 ... Most recent comment 2017-06-19 10:30:50
Gilding

​Best recommendations for an oil mordant for use to gild an icon?

Preservation of canvas

Question asked 2017-06-09 16:12:21 ... Most recent comment 2017-06-15 20:32:09
Sizes and Adhesives Paint Mediums Oil Paint Drying Oils

I’m hoping someone can help me with two issues I’m having with painting:

  1. I am using oil sticks to paint on muslin fabric or even a polyester for my canvas, and I'm trying to see if there is a way to avoid the fabric from breaking down over time because of the oil based paint. Because of the type of painting I am doing, I wet the canvas first with a spray bottle and therefore I can’t seize the canvas prior to applying the paint to the canvas using traditional methods such as jesso. 
  2. Because I am applying the oil sticks to a damp fabric, the drying time is extended significantly.  

Any advicde would be greatly appreciated. Than you.

How to make oil paint thick sticky and ropey

Question asked 2017-06-02 14:48:33 ... Most recent comment 2017-06-15 16:36:18
Paint Additives Oil Paint

​Greetings,

I have been trying to modify oil paint for textural effect and my goal is to make the paint thick sticky and ropey/ stringy. Auerbach sometimes seems to have gotten a similar paint quality where the rheology of the paint is highly thixotropic alla Lead White. I've also been thinking of the quality of silicon caulk as the texture I am after. 

I have expeirmented with adding stand oil, dammar, clay made into paste, alkyd, etc but these tend to 'shorten' the oil, lowering the viscocity (with the exception of the clay). My next step is to see what marble or glass powder does. I have a (Daniel Smith) tube of transparent blender made with alumina hydrate that is perhaps the closest I've found for the texture I am after.

Any suggetions for this type if paint modification would be helpful. 


Thank you!

Strange spotting/fogging on oil painting on aluminum

Question asked 2017-06-14 13:40:09 ... Most recent comment 2017-06-14 23:20:40
Oil Paint

​I used an aluminum panel for a painting support for an oil painting for the first time. A month after the painting dried to the touch, I wrapped it unvarnished  in acid-free tissue, wrapped in foam, then in bubble wrap in a cardboard box on a flight. It was wrapped this way for about 1 week. When I hung it for my exhibition I noticed strange splotches that resemble mold. They are not uniform and were not there before packing. The aluminum was purchased at an art store with plastic vacuum sealed to both sides. I took off the plastic and primed it with 4-6 layers of Grumbacher Gesso for oils, sanding between each layer. I used Rublev Raw French Umber thinned with Rublesol for the underpainting, followed by Rublev paint straight from the tube with no medium added. The main colors I used were Lamp Black and Lead white. Is there some reason you can imagine that would cause this type of reaction? Will it go away when I varnish? I've read that using denatured alcohol and lead primer would help prevent this in the future (whatever this is), but wouldn't so many layers of gesso be good enough? Thank you!

Rothko's use of and contemporary applications for phenol formaldehyde

Question asked 2017-06-09 23:14:16 ... Most recent comment 2017-06-10 09:16:00
Varnishes Technical Art History

​Hello. I'm not sure if this question really belongs with the Varnish questions, but I couldn't find any better matches. I was reading an abstract from the journal Nature in which some Tate Modern conservators described their research into Rothko murals.* In their words, "Rothko [...] applied phenol formaldehyde to prevent layers from blending into one another." I imagine this working something like workable fixative between paint layers. Is that correct? Are there other documented uses of phenol formaldehyde for this purpose? How would the use of it affect paint adhesion in layers above? 

I'm not aware of too many companies selling anything like this, although Lefranc & Bourgeois offers "Harlem Duroziez drying medium"** which they say contains phenol formaldehyd resin. Are there other manufacturers which offer it in a liquid or spray form?

* https://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v456/n7221/full/456447a.html

** http://www.lefranc-bourgeois.com/beaux-arts/telechargement/A_TELPDF_2010092817171362.PDF

adhering tar paper

Question asked 2017-06-07 13:25:41 ... Most recent comment 2017-06-09 12:31:01
Industrial and Non-Traditional Products

​I am looking for an adhesive to adhere tar paper to a masonite panel. Any suggestions? Thank You!

Gluing linen to cradled Gessobord

Question asked 2017-06-07 18:20:51 ... Most recent comment 2017-06-08 23:23:36
Rigid Supports Sizes and Adhesives

I want to attach unprimed linen to Gessobord and then prime with lead oil ground. I want to use cradled and sealed Gessobord to skip steps of sealing/cradling even though a bit more expensive. My question is which adhesive is better – Lineco Neutral PH Adhesive or Beva Adhesive? Note: I don't want to deal with the Beva in a film form. it sounds too tricky. Thank you for this site! 

Black Oil usage

Question asked 2017-06-07 10:57:25 ... Most recent comment 2017-06-07 11:25:28
Health and Safety Oil Paint Paint Mediums

I sometimes use Black Oil ( linseed oil boiled with lead) to speed up the drying time of the oil paints. Once the paint is dry if you sand or scrape the surface does the presence of Black Oil in the paint present a health issue with the airborne particles ?

Many thanks

Jim G

Sealing a color-lifting acrylic painting, retarder-related issues

Question asked 2017-05-31 11:56:54 ... Most recent comment 2017-06-01 22:19:28
Acrylic Paint Additives Paint Mediums

My acrylic paintings sometimes show a noticeable amount of color lifting (particularly when using a relatively large amount of retarder) - rubbing a wet cotton swab causes a small amount of color to be left on the cotton. There seem to be no major adhesion failures, even in cases where I might have used more than the recommended amount of retarder. I was wondering if I should secure such layers of paint by brushing a layer of medium on top? I remember reading that it's generally a good idea to provide such a protective layer in practically all cases.

And in case this ever happens, what would be the best course of action if the paint remained "tacky" due to too much retarder?

Acrylic primer under oil paint: solvent sensitivity?

Question asked 2017-05-26 18:39:48 ... Most recent comment 2017-05-26 19:27:30
Grounds / Priming Acrylic Oil Paint

​I know that the sensitivity that acrylic polymer films have to solvents presents challenges when it comes to the cleaning of acrylic paintings. Is there a similar concern for oil paintings executed on an acrylic ground? Or do the layers of oil paint (assuming that the ground is well covered) provide an adequate barrier against the action of sovents used in cleaning?

-Ben

Open-weave linen

Question asked 2017-05-14 17:05:44 ... Most recent comment 2017-05-21 02:21:32
Rigid Supports Oil Paint Flexible Supports

​I know that historically, linen with a close, tight weave was prefered for its strength. If one is mounting (pre-primed) linen to a rigid panel rather than stretching it, is there any particular reason to worry about using a loose-weave linen similar to what would have been called an "Étude" canvas in the 19th century? "Loose" meaning that there is enough space between the yarns that you can see tiny squares of the ground from the back of the linen. 

ArtFix L21C and Fredrix Paris #908 HP are modern examples of this type of linen. I like the texture a lot on both, but am not sure if the loose weave is likely to be an issue in mounted linen. 

Beva 371 film

Question asked 2017-05-02 07:32:24 ... Most recent comment 2017-05-17 23:25:55
Sizes and Adhesives Studio Tools and Tips Oil Paint Flexible Supports

​I like to use Beva 371 film to mount oil-primed linen to tempered hardboard. It usually works great, but sometimes I'll have a spot or two right on the edge of the panel where the linen just doesn't want to adhere, and remains loose. Going back over these spots with my tacking iron never seems to help. 

I always adhere the Beva film to the panel first, and then mount the linen. Would it be better to start by attaching the film to the linen? Or, could I take out some "insurance" by attaching a layer of film to *both* the linen and the panel? 





Matching paint colours

Question asked 2017-05-09 09:23:46 ... Most recent comment 2017-05-15 11:04:12
Oil Paint

​There has been some discussion on another forum regarding colour matching for touch-ups to sections of oil paintings. The problems seem to be related to adding mediums - especially mediums containing solvents (such as alkyd mediums).  Colours sometimes dry lighter or darker than expected - depending on the medium used and whether medium was added before or after colour matching. I was wondering if there are any pointers from how conservators handle matching colours for inpainting that would help artists in matching colours for tehri own touch-ups.  Do you use just straight paint? Add medium before or after mixing the right colour?  What medium do typically you use? Any insights into your typical in-painting process would be helpful.

drying

Question asked 2017-05-08 10:26:21 ... Most recent comment 2017-05-08 11:11:24
Oil Paint Drying Oils

​Is it OK to put an oil painting out in the sun to dry to speed up drying?

KILZ as sealer for panels

Question asked 2017-05-02 13:49:43 ... Most recent comment 2017-05-02 21:04:28

​Hi.  I'm an oil painter considering using KILZ 2, (latex water-based primer, sealer and stain blocker composed of  Titanium dioxide, Nepheline Syenite, Limestone) as a sealer for maple panels.  I will use 4 or more coats of acrylic gesso (either Golden or Art Board) after the KILZ.  I hear that KILZ is a good seal for panels but also know that industrial grade materials aren't always tested/recommended if the intention is to build an archival surface.  Do you recommend KILZ or should I stick with GAC 100?  Thank you. 

Using RSG to glue a finished painting to Masonite--acceptable practice or not?

Question asked 2017-04-21 23:45:13 ... Most recent comment 2017-05-02 07:24:45
Rigid Supports

​Dear Moderators


Thank you for this wonderful website. So glad to see AMIEN has a successor.

I plan to paint on some RSG sized canvas and then (if the painting works out) to glue it to a rigid support. I had hoped to use my untempered Masonite as substrate to glue the textile to but recently read here that tempered is far better (however I don't hold out much hope of getting that product here in Australia). I am very much aware of all the disadvantages of using RSG (have been reading about them for decades) but I strongly prefer the working qualities it imparts to the surface I paint on. Also I understand that RSG is much less problematic when used on a rigid support, if all precautions are taken (such as sizing and priming both sides and also varnishing both sides at the proper time etc). I had planned to just go ahead and glue the linen to the Masonite and then do the painting (much more straightforward) rather than size a stretched canvas, paint on it and then glue it on to the Masonite. However I can't do this till I find a source of tempered Masonite. In the meantime I want to paint. My question is: is it unwise to use hot RSG to glue a finished painting to a substrate? Is it likely that the hot glue would damage the painting? 

Oil paintings and cracking

Question asked 2017-04-29 02:59:41 ... Most recent comment 2017-05-02 07:21:30
Art Conservation Topics Oil Paint Scientific Analysis Technical Art History

​Will all oil paintings eventually crack, even if painted on a rigid surface with a good oil binder in the correct ratio and avoiding pigments like Zinc?

Do these good practices only extend the time it takes before cracking occurs?

Sealing wood panel for acrylic paint: Shellac BIN or GAC 100? Warping?

Question asked 2017-04-20 12:46:55 ... Most recent comment 2017-05-01 14:21:42
Acrylic Grounds / Priming Rigid Supports Flexible Supports Art Conservation Topics

​Debating whether to use pigmented Shellac BIN or GAC 100 as sealer.  From what I've been told, Shellac BIN is a sealer, GAC 100 is not.  (regular Shellac can dissolve acrylic paint due to alkaline sensitivity to ammonia but Shellac BIN seems to be ok)

GAC 100 reduces SID, but so can Shellac BIN.  

It seems like Shellac BIN is winning out here... I plan to put a couple layers of Gesso on top of either Shellac BIN or GAC 100 before painting of course.  If Shellac can do what GAC 100 can do but it is a true sealer wouldn't Shellac BIN be a better choice?  

Regarding WARPING: Someone told me that shellac also can prevent warping due to blocking moisture.. is this true?

I'd like to eventually work bigger than 48" at some point and use the thinnest plywood possible (prob birch) to keep it light and of course cradle and brace it with supports.  But what are your thoughts as to warping at this size?  Would getting 1/4" be too thin?  What if I put 3 layers of Shellac BIN?

post-varnishng spots

Question asked 2017-04-30 16:40:25 ... Most recent comment 2017-05-01 09:16:29
Varnishes

​On Dec 2015 I finished a painting which later I varnished with Gumbacher Matte Dammar in Spray (4 months later).

Last October the owner asked me to give it another coat of varnished (which I didn't know is not recommended).  Then I gave a coat with a cheap liquid matte varnish becayse I didn't find a good brand).  While I was applying it, the painting started to dilute a little bit.  I don't know if that was due the thin sprayed former coat or another reason. I could handle to eliminate marks and had a very good finish. However spots as if sinking in are appearing now.

I have to fix it, but I don't know how.  I've never removed varnish before, so I'm afraid of doing so. Some solutions come to my mind.

1. Varnish again (I know it's not good to use gloss over matte so I thin ther painting could  maybe stand another matte coat)

2. Buff with cold wax to get an even surface.

MS2A varnish?

Question asked 2017-04-28 07:57:35 ... Most recent comment 2017-04-28 22:18:57
Varnishes Oil Paint

​Does anyone know if MS2A resin is still being produced? I've been looking for a source online, but haven't had any luck finding one.

Detaching textile from panel if glued using acrylic polymer emulsion

Question asked 2017-04-27 07:01:42 ... Most recent comment 2017-04-28 21:17:05
Rigid Supports

​Dear moderator


Could you please advise how one might go about removing a painting done on linen from a panel (to which it has been adhered using acrylic medium) in the event that the panel has proven to be an unsuitable support or become damaged in some way? Or simply because the painting done originally didn't work out and one wants to glue a new piece of linen to the panel? I have tried removing linen from panel under the latter circumstances (when the painting didn't work out and was destined for the rubbish bin) , simply by pulling it off but found it virtually impossible. What solvents might a conservator use to achieve detachment in the event of a painting that needs to be saved?

Using sunlight to speed drying?

Question asked 2017-04-16 16:43:34 ... Most recent comment 2017-04-24 14:30:11
Oil Paint Art Conservation Topics

​Hello, 

   Someone on another forum (who lives in a warm climate) recently mentioned deliberately placing paintings in the sun to speed drying. They do it  both when finished and between layers. They mentioned that paint dried to the touch in a matter of hours. It made me curious. It sound convenient but I suspect that there are some inherent dangers to this approach.  I looked through the resource documents and there were hints that it was not a best pratcice but I couldn't find any explicit information. Any insights into potential problems with this practice?

   Thanks in advance.

Extreme dilution of paints on absorbent surfaces

Question asked 2017-04-20 20:05:55 ... Most recent comment 2017-04-24 11:01:00
Acrylic Watercolor Gouache Egg Tempera

​From what I know, there is no limit to how much watercolors can be diluted when painted on paper. I was wondering if the same can be said of all the other water-soluble paints. Is it okay (in terms of durability of the finished work) to dilute:

  1. Acrylics
  2. Gouache
  3. Tempera (egg and non-egg)
  4. Inks

as much as one wants if painting on an absorbent support, like paper? I read that the absorbency of the fibers ensures that the pigments are trapped within the piper, so there should be no conservation issue in that regard. Is that true?

Also, should such works be varnished, and if so - with what?

Remedying overextended acrylics

Question asked 2017-04-09 12:32:20 ... Most recent comment 2017-04-11 20:18:00
Acrylic Paint Additives Art Conservation Topics

I know that acrylics can be made less durable by adding too much water or extender/retarder to them. I was wondering if this could be remedied later on by either

a) coating the weakened layer with medium

b) overpainting the weakened layer with acrylics that haven't been overextended or oils

?

Would sealing the overextended layer with medium/paint have a similar protective effect as painting over tempera with oil?

Anodized Aluminium as a painting support.

Question asked 2017-04-09 11:54:22 ... Most recent comment 2017-04-11 18:23:00
Rigid Supports

​I recently found online a kind of artist ACM panel with an anodized surface. The store that makes the panels claims the surface is porous enough to paint on directly with oils and acrylics, although I'd personally want to prime the panels first. Anodized aluminium as a painting support seems quite uncommon - however I did find at least one well-known artist, David Dunlop, who regularly uses it. And so I was wondering, are there any problems associated with priming then painting on anodized aluminium? As always, any advice would would be appreciated. Many thanks, J.

Putting Oil Paintings in the Sun

Question asked 2017-04-11 07:01:58 ... Most recent comment 2017-04-11 11:17:00
Oil Paint

Hello MITRA,

On one of your resource handouts you say, "Some artists choose to place their paintings in direct sunlight for a certain period of time as UV light can break up some of the chemical bonds that are responsible for yellowing."  What length of time, more or less, is it suggested that an oil painting be exposed to sunlight to counteract yellowing?  Any caveats, besides being aware of fugitive pigments? 

Thanks 

Oil Rotting Canvas

Question asked 2017-04-08 22:00:47 ... Most recent comment 2017-04-09 20:54:00
Art Conservation Topics

​Hi there

I've arrived here from the Wet Canvas forums, following a thread I was interested in, regarding damage to the acrylic "gesso" of a canvas, and subsequent oil strikethrough. Many respondents, in their answers, referred to the danger of "oil rotting the canvas", and indeed, searching this forum, found similar references. The problem I have is: I've never seen oil rotting a canvas. I've searched the internet of course, but may just be looking in the wrong places.

I have some student canvases, they are about 25 years old, with paint stains on the side of the stretched canvas. There is no sign of degradation of the weave.

oil-stains.jpg


I have also read (I don't have a reference) that oil could be getting the blame from damage bry damp and mold in some cases. Is it possible that the fatty acids in Linseed Oil become effectively neutralized in the polymerization process, or simply locked up in the mass of fillers and pigment, and do little damage to the weave? I'm wondering what the evidence is to support the case for "oil rotting", and if there are photographs?


Thanks!




Sagging Canvas

Question asked 2017-04-09 18:53:54 ... Most recent comment 2017-04-09 19:36:00
Flexible Supports Acrylic

​In the summer of 2016, I painted a 9-inch by 12-inch painting on 7/8-inch-deep Masterpiece "Vincent Sausalito" all-cotton stretched canvas. I added two coats of Golden acrylic gesso on top of the manufacturer's gesso, and then the painting was done in Golden acrylics. I framed it with a Nielsen aluminum canvas-depth sectional frame. It hung through the fall and winter in a winterized cottage in  northern Michigan, with the central heating system turned off.

In early April of 2017 I found the painting in below freezing temps, in order to retrieve and varnish it. It apparently had undergone "planar" warping of the canvas surface, to use a term I've picked up on this forum. Over the course of a couple weeks in a separate year-round heated home, the warping has disappeared and the painting now looks fine. Ideally, I wanted to leave the painting year-round at the cottage, and am wondering if I should cut the painted canvas from the stretcher bars and glue it to 1/8-inch-thick Ampersand Hardbord with acrylic medium? First sizing the board on both faces and all four edges with acrylic medium. Was this sagging likely caused by the temperature change? Thanks for any insights and/or suggestions.

Crack in priming, can it be repaired? (Unfinished painting)

Question asked 2017-04-07 07:32:49 ... Most recent comment 2017-04-08 22:42:00
Flexible Supports Grounds / Priming Art Conservation Topics

​Hi Mitra friends, 

I originally posted this question on WetCanvas and they suggested I would ask it here to get a more in depth response. 

I found many topics covering cracks in painting, but I promise this is not exactly related. 

I spent many hours on a painting for which I stretched out the canvas myself, two layers of pva size and oil priming on top. 

The painting itself has been built with many thin layers of oil paint with a little liquin to thin and accelerate drying of oils.

Everything was going fine, but a few days back, the canvas fell from the easel and hit a chair corner. The fabric is absolutely fine, not even stretched out, but the area of the painting which hit the chair cracked a bit. 

I was very upset and in hopes that the priming was intact, I tried to cover the crack with another layer of oil painting. 

It seems to me that the sizing and priming were damaged due to the fall as the paint I applied afterwards went through and appeared on a cracking shape on the backside of the canvas. I'll try and post a picture with this for observation. 

I was always told that oils will rot the canvas if it gets in contact with it (even though it might take years) but I wanted to know if there's any way I can avoid that from happening making the area "healthy" again? 

Some people also said that the thin layers of oil will not damage the canvas if I apply acrylic primer on the back of the affected area? 

I hope you'll be so kind to share any solid information you have on this issue?

Thanks for reading! 

CrackedPriming.JPG            

Cause of dimpling on linen

Question asked 2017-04-05 21:27:04 ... Most recent comment 2017-04-05 21:58:00
Oil Paint Animal Glue Varnishes Flexible Supports

​I have had to withdraw a20170304_085913 - Copy.jpg painting for sale because of something that went wrong in its structure, sadly. This started on raw linen, rabbitskin glue (I don't use that anymore) I used oil priming- titanium with a heaping tablespoon of quality lead white paint and a small amount of quality turps. It dried several months and I used universal varnish on it. I don't heavy varnish, but a gallery in a different (dry) climate thought it needed more varnish. I bought the same brand etc and sent it to them and a respected artist with the same training added another coat. When I got the painting back, I loved it! It looked glassy and I preferred the look. However, this painting has always been the worst reactor to humidity changes of all my work. It's got crossbar supports, yes. It's now 13 years old and 2 years ago began to dimple.

Polyester canvas for oil paint

Question asked 2017-04-05 04:29:19 ... Most recent comment 2017-04-05 15:56:00
Flexible Supports Oil Paint

​Hello,  

I have a few  questions about polyester canvas as a stretched support for oil paint.  I intend on buying a a roll of 100% polyester canvas from a very ubiquitous company.  It is "universally-primed".

From what I've read, polyester canvas may be less susceptible to some of the humidity/moisture/movement related issues that linen and cotton enact upon an oil paint film.

Then I read this entry by a moderator:

Two things first. What is the attraction to polyester as a substrate for you and what type of paint are you planning to use on the polyester? I generally worry about the the overly flexible of polyester for any paint media other than acrylic dispersion paints. Let is know that and in the meantime I will ask some of the other moderators their opinions.

Baade, Brian

2016-12-13 21:23:01

I intended to put a thin coat of lead white ground on top of the acrylic dispersion primer, then paint on it with oil paint.  I thought that if one were to forego panels, then this would be the "best practice" second choice ( with a vented matte- board backing).

Am I wrong? Is linen or cotton a better, or indifferent, choice?

I did email the company and they stated no zinc white is used in the priming.

Thanks for your time and consideration.

Kevin

Paper de-acidifying

Question asked 2017-02-24 09:55:55 ... Most recent comment 2017-04-05 10:28:00
Art Conservation Topics Other Flexible Supports Industrial and Non-Traditional Products
How can I make old newspapers less acid for use in my collages.

1960s era painting | oil on muslin | storage

Question asked 2017-04-04 13:42:45 ... Most recent comment 2017-04-04 13:52:00
Storage

​Do you have any suggestions on how to roll a 10' x 10' oil on muslin painting for storage? My friend acquired the large picture and cannot immediately stretch or hang it and was going to line with glassine and roll over plastic tubing, it had been folded in 10 inch sections. I thought the glassine was a bad idea and wasn't sure about plastic tubing.

Acrylic paint application

Question asked 2017-03-31 03:29:55 ... Most recent comment 2017-04-03 16:50:00
Acrylic Paint Mediums

​I am applying artist acrylic paint diluted approx. 10% with water onto a gesso prepared surface, with a small fine foam roller. The paint is foaming and although I can remedy this eventually, is there a way to prevent the initial foaming? Thanks.

Acrylics over "Vinyl" paints

Question asked 2017-03-28 08:55:03 ... Most recent comment 2017-04-01 22:02:00
Acrylic

For the underpainting on many of my acrylic paintings, I would like to use more opaque paints​ than most regular acrylic lines provide. 

There are several products that I've come across -- mostly online but occasionally in the big art stores -- that are described sometimes as acrylic and sometimes as "vinyl." Examples include Lefranc & Bourgeois Flashe Vinyl Paint or Maimeri Polycolor Vinyl Paints. It's hard to tell from the online literature whether whatever it is that makes them "vinyl" would make them incompatible with "regular" acrylics.

Are these safe to use: (1) as an underpainting for a more traditional acrylic paint (e.g., Golden Heavy Body); and, (2) inter-mixed with those same paints (e.g., to modify opacity)? I'm more interested in (1) but curious about (2).

Thanks.

mounting paper on wood panel

Question asked 2017-03-14 12:45:43 ... Most recent comment 2017-03-31 16:43:00
Rigid Supports Sizes and Adhesives Oil Paint

​I'd like to know the accepted, archivally safe way to mount an oil painting created on paper (140 lb 100% cotton) onto a cradled birch panel. Specifically, how to seal the birch so acid cannot migrate to paper, and what no-acid glue to use for mounting.  

Preserving possibly acidic paper with acrylic medium

Question asked 2017-03-31 13:42:04 ... Most recent comment 2017-03-31 14:22:00
Acrylic Sizes and Adhesives Flexible Supports Industrial and Non-Traditional Products
When making things like collages, reliefs or textured paintings, would it be okay to use non-artist paper (for example, tissue paper) if it's first thoroughly coated with acrylic medium? I read that it can be used to preserve things like leaves, so I was wondering whether (aside from being an adhesive) it would stop paper that could be acidic from becoming brittle.

Pigment Microbial Metabolism

Question asked 2017-03-28 15:19:31 ... Most recent comment 2017-03-30 10:12:00
Health and Safety Oil Paint Pigments

​I have a large oily waste can that contains rags contaminated with lead and mercury (vermilion) based pigments. In order to dispose of them, I will need to dump the waste into a large bag and bring it to a Hazardous waste disposal facility. The can I use has been sitting outside covered for around 6 months, and contains water for combustion concerns. Should I be concerned about any potential metabolic processes that may occur from mold or microbes growing within the rags that could potentially turn Mercuric Sulfide, into a more toxic form of mercury, or any other heavy metal based pigment? If so, what process should I take so that I can dispose of it safetly and not expose myself to these compounds. 

Golden Fluid Acrylic separation

Question asked 2017-03-24 18:01:28 ... Most recent comment 2017-03-29 13:35:00
Acrylic

​Hello! I observed a strange separation of paint/color after leaving the Golden Fluid Acrylic Iridescent Bronze (Fine) in a wet palette overnight. This could be just a colorant added to the mica? It was suggested by a supervisor that I contact you fine folks with this concern! Thank you!! (please see attached photo)

Saving paint

Question asked 2017-03-26 13:56:10 ... Most recent comment 2017-03-28 14:18:00
Oil Paint

 My usual practice is to start with fresh paint every day - squeezing out just enough of the colours I think i will use for the section of the painting I am working on.  However, there has been discussion recently on several FaceBook forums about saving paint on the palette overnight or even longer - sometimes weeks. The two most common methods seem to be either a) putting the palette in a freezer or b) putting it in a sealed contained each night with a few drops of clove oil on a cloth in that container.  The freezer method seems to be prone to introducing condensation if not handled properly. Both methods will lead to using progressively dried paint over several days or longer. Are these approaches to reducing paint "wastage"  potentially problematic?

sanding a layer of oil paint

Question asked 2017-03-23 15:38:06 ... Most recent comment 2017-03-23 16:51:00
Oil Paint

​Hello,

I have a bit of dust dried into the top layer of an oil painting I'm working on and would like to lightly sand the surface, remove the dust and sanded particles, then continue with another layer of oil paint.  Should I be concerned with weaking the sublayer?  Thank you!  

Peparation (sanding/priming) guidelines for composite wood (mainly HDF/MDF/hardboard)

Question asked 2017-02-11 12:21:09 ... Most recent comment 2017-03-20 16:56:00
Grounds / Priming Industrial and Non-Traditional Products Rigid Supports Sizes and Adhesives
As far as preparing rigid engineered wood surfaces for painting goes, the consensus seems to be that they should ideally be 1. cleaned 2. sanded 3. sized 4. primed. While various websites advise sanding according to preference between subsequent applications of ground to achieve a very smooth surface, what I usually found lacking is the advice of sanding before sizing.
My questions are as follows:
1. To clean the surface before sanding, I would use 95% ethanol applied with a rag/kitchen towel. Is this alright? Other options that come to mind are methylated spirits, mineral spirits or hardware store soap, all advertised as pre-paint cleaning agents, but I'm not sure whether they would make a difference and concerned about breathing in the methylated/mineral spirits fumes.
2. There is generally no information about how hard the surfaces should be sanded - only that they should be sanded "lightly" so that they are lose gloss. The problem is that in order to really remove all visible gloss one has to sand much harder than lightly, so I sometimes have fibers sticking out of my boards after sanding them, which is apparently a sign of sanding too hard. Is there any way of judging how lightly one should press while "lightly sanding"?  Any way of checking other than just running a finger across the surface (possible health risk?)? Also, I understand that a 150 grit sandpaper is a bit too rough and something in the range of 200-250 would be better?
Finally, is it worth buying an electric sander? I think it might give me a more uniform result, but I'm not sure if it won't be sanding too much even with the lightest touch given the speeds involved.

One more question about Denatured Alcohol

Question asked 2017-02-25 09:41:10 ... Most recent comment 2017-03-20 14:26:00
Solvents and Thinners Varnishes
I forgot to ask in my previous question: in addition to shellac not fully dissolving in a weak formulation, are there other consequences to using a denatured alcohol with a less than optimal percentage of ethanol?

linen reversed

Question asked 2017-03-18 22:34:27 ... Most recent comment 2017-03-19 03:41:00
Sizes and Adhesives Flexible Supports

​Hi,

I know it is better not to seal the back of your canvas. But what will happen if you stretch reversed primed linen onto you stretcher bars? Is that equally bad?

Golden fluid colors Density

Question asked 2017-02-14 13:09:24 ... Most recent comment 2017-03-08 17:26:00
Acrylic Industrial and Non-Traditional Products Scientific Analysis
I am interested in finding a list of Golden Paints  acrylic fluid color density, both fluid and high-Flow, as compared to one another and not to oil or a lacquer based paint. Can you help?

Denatured Alcohol

Question asked 2017-02-25 09:31:58 ... Most recent comment 2017-03-03 14:52:00
Solvents and Thinners
I make a point of searching out and buying a 190 proof (95% ethanol) denatured alcohol for making shellac.  However many of the denatured alcohols sold at hardware stores contain lesser percentages of ethanol (i.e. a student just asked me about "Sunnyside" brand; the MSDS reveals it is only 86% ethanol).  If someone prefers to buy whatever denatured alcohol is available at their local hardware store, at what percentage number does the ethanol in the formulation become too low to be suitable as a thinner for shellac?

Also, the MSDS for Sunnyside's denatured alcohol lists "hazardous ingredients", which add up to about 94%.  What is the other 6% or so percent composed of?

Thanks

Glue/Chalk Emulsion Ground problems

Question asked 2017-02-27 22:04:58 ... Most recent comment 2017-03-02 11:11:00
Animal Glue Chalk Grounds / Priming Oil Paint

I’m student at an academy of fine arts in Europe. I used to paint on Wood and primed with acrylic gesso from Golden. I recently made the change to canvas and home made ground and that’s where the nightmare began. The priming recipe for oil painting on canvas given by my teacher consists of Rabbit Skin glue, Champagne Chalk (with optional titanium white) and Lindseed oil varnish. I made the first 5 with him and got excellent results but since I have had to make them by myself, I lost a month of painting and so much material because all my primed canvas cracked, I cannot understand why…

1) I mix 55g of RSG with1L of water overnight in the fridge2)Take one part of that with 2.5 Part of water and do one layer of sizing3) Take on part with 2 part Champagne Chalk with 1 Part water with 1/3 Lindseed oil varnish and use an electric mixer. Then I apply 3-4 coats

The next day I arrive and everything show mini cracks. I can hear them if I press gentle on the back of the canvas

I have asked 50 times my teacher and I swear I’m doing what I think he tells me, but obviously something I do is wrong… Do you have any idea what the problem is? do you recommend another method specifically

I use cotton duck canvas which I stretch. It is for oil painting. I like firm tension but that can take some rough cloth rubbing and handling. Longevity and quality are very important to me.

Mixed pigment paints containing zinc

Question asked 2017-02-28 08:31:01 ... Most recent comment 2017-02-28 10:55:00
Oil Paint Pigments

​I stopped using a newly opened large tube of Windsor and Newton titanium white that I had on hand because it contained "a small amount of zinc" according to the manufacturer. I suspect there is a growing amount of zinc containing paint being abandoned. Obviously, pure zinc white is disocuraegd but it would be great if there was some sort of guidance as to how much zinc is acceptable in a multi-pigment colour. In medicine there is an expression that goes something like "the dose makes the poison". Similarly, I expect that a very small amount of zinc isn't going to cause a problem but I haven't seen any research or guidance as to just what that maximum tolerance for zinc is. Is there any current guidance on this or research that you know of under way to clarify this issue? 

Sizing

Question asked 2017-02-23 12:53:15 ... Most recent comment 2017-02-24 11:51:00
Rigid Supports Sizes and Adhesives Grounds / Priming
When applying a glue size to a fibreboard (MDF) panel, does the strength of the glue need to be stronger than the quantity of glue mix used in gesso?  I have been advised by my supplier to use a stronger formula for the inital sizing (1:10) but I haven't found this advice anywhere else.

Material Study or production Residencies Anywhere in the World?

Question asked 2017-02-21 17:04:22 ... Most recent comment 2017-02-21 17:48:00
Drawing Materials Dyes Environment Ink Paint Making Pigments
Hello! I'm a painting and drawing senior BFA student at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago and was wondering if you have any information or insight on residencies, workshops, or any opportunities that will allow me to engage in foraging and collecting my own materials, extracting organic pigments, making my own inks and paints, etc. Anywhere in the world! I hope to turn this into a fulbright scholarship application, so anywhere you suggest will help!

I am interested in organic material, traditional processes, smaller communities and working in the natural environment... And of course, something very immersive. Even paper-making and natural dye techniques are helpful suggestions, but I'd love to just make materials from scratch. Thank you so much for your help!!

Reducing risk of warping in large panels painted with egg tempera

Question asked 2017-02-21 14:07:43 ... Most recent comment 2017-02-21 15:36:00
Egg Tempera Rigid Supports
To minimise warping when painting with ET on large panels 2ft x 3ft  (12mm MDF), I have previously gessoed both sides (8 layers or so) of my panels after a coat or two of rabbit skin size.  However this is a laborious technique owing to the drag of the gesso on such large panels.  Can I apply rabbit skin glue instead (8-10 layers) which glides on much more easily.  I am not inclined to brace/bracket my panels so any advice on alternative methods of stabilising large panels would be most welcome.

Best material for fixing graphite drawings

Question asked 2017-02-16 16:36:53 ... Most recent comment 2017-02-16 17:47:00
Drawing Materials Varnishes
What's the best brand/material to fix a pencil on Canson drawing paper? I've used sprays before, just interested in what others are using. Thanks.  

Tyvek?

Question asked 2017-02-16 16:34:18 ... Most recent comment 2017-02-16 17:47:00
Flexible Supports Acrylic
Is Tyvek a sustainable surface for an acrylic painting?

What is the maximum ratio of medium to oil paint in very thin glazes?

Question asked 2017-02-14 22:43:54 ... Most recent comment 2017-02-15 10:41:00
Oil Paint Paint Mediums
I was wondering how much medium one could safely add to glaze layers.I remember the question being asked years ago on the old AMIEN forum, and there didn't seem to be a clear-cut consensus. One reply suggested that the ratio almost didn't matter, as long as the glaze was applied thinly enough. In the opinion of the moderators, how much leeway do we have regarding the amount of medium in very thin glazes? Let's say we have a glaze which is half paint, half medium, brushed on then patted down with a sponge - basically tonked - leaving more or less a residual stain of colour. In a glaze layer this thin, is the high amount of medium likely to cause any problems? I'm assuming if yellowing is a problem with oiling out, it might be something to worry about here too. And could we expect several ( similarly extra-thin ) layers of glaze, applied over each other, to develop the same problems that a single, thicker layer of medium-heavy glaze might, yellowing or even wrinkling? As always, any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Framing Egg Tempera under Glass

Question asked 2017-02-15 08:19:14 ... Most recent comment 2017-02-15 10:40:00
Egg Tempera Matting, Framing, and Glazing
Egg Tempera artists are sometimes told to frame work under glass, to protect the initially vulnerable surface of tempera from scratches.  Both tempera's ground (traditional gesso) and support (wood-based panel) are hygroscopic.  Does framing egg tempera under glass protect the work from ambient moisture, or is glazing more likely to trap moisture, potentially leading to mold, delamination, etc.? 

Thanks,

Koo Schadler

Are gilded bevels archival?

Question asked 2017-02-14 14:53:57 ... Most recent comment 2017-02-14 15:01:00
Art Conservation Topics Gilding Matting, Framing, and Glazing
I gild the bevels of my archival mat boards, and I am wondering if this affects their archival-ness.  I use acrylic paint, water-based size, and 23K or other genuine gold leaf.

Categories for the Density question - Acrylic, Scientific Analysis

Question asked 2017-02-14 13:19:10 ... Most recent comment 2017-02-14 14:22:00
Acrylic Industrial and Non-Traditional Products Scientific Analysis
Regarding my question about a comparison of the Density of The fluid paints, I am mixed media and collage artist and use pours. I would like to have more control by knowing this simple fact.

Size/primer drying time

Question asked 2017-02-13 16:26:34 ... Most recent comment 2017-02-13 17:53:00
Grounds / Priming Rigid Supports Sizes and Adhesives
I plan on painting on rigid, absorbent supports (HDF/MDF/hardboard etc.). Is it okay to speed up the drying time of PVA sizes and acrylic dispersion grounds using a hair dryer? Specifically, is it okay to:
1) Speed up the drying time of the size before applying the next layer?
2) Speed up the drying time of the ground before applying the next layer?
3) Speed up the drying time of the ground before painting?
In any case, how long should I wait before starting the next step/how do I know that the layer is dry enough? I have read the 24 hours drying time recommendation for acrylic ground before beginning a painting, but are there any estimates for the rest?

Sizing fiberboards before applying acrylic ground?

Question asked 2017-02-10 12:14:42 ... Most recent comment 2017-02-10 12:35:00
Grounds / Priming Industrial and Non-Traditional Products Rigid Supports Sizes and Adhesives
It appears there are conflicting recommendations on various manufacturers' websites regarding sizing HDF/MDF before applying acrylic ground. Looking at the table in the "Adhesives and Sizes" document, three coats of acrylic ground should be enough to protect from any noticeable migration of mediums or solvents through the support, so shouldn't it also be sufficient to protect the work from the chemicals that might migrate from the support?
Assuming that sizing is still recommended, should PVA glue with a pH of 7 suffice? If so, should it be diluted? How much?
Also, when using HDF/MDF that's laminated on one side, is it fine to leave the laminate as is, since it's already a protective layer?

Medium Question

Question asked 2017-02-09 18:00:49 ... Most recent comment 2017-02-09 18:45:00
Paint Mediums
I work in oils and would like to know the best choice for a medium when i am painting alla prima.  I only feel the need for a tiny amount of medium if I feel the paint directly out of the tube is too stiff, otherwise, I don't use it.  Should i use straight linseed oil, straight stand oil, a dilution with OMS of either of these, or somehing else?  I am not looking for something to make the paint dry faster.  Thanks in advance.  

Usage of exterior acrylic paint as ground on rigid supports (or possible alternatives)

Question asked 2017-02-09 07:07:14 ... Most recent comment 2017-02-09 10:39:00
Grounds / Priming Industrial and Non-Traditional Products
Given that I've heard from many people that exterior acrylic paints (hardware store ones) perform quite well as a ground for oil/acrylic paintings, and that "artist's gesso" is very expensive and hard to obtain where I live, I would like to ask for expert advice regarding their use.
I have read the "Myths, FAQs, and Common Misconceptions" section on industrial/outdoor products, but the claims made there are very vague an nebulous. "can potentially lead to problematic consequences" and "Some of these additives are known to eventually migrate out of these commercial paints after a certain period of time" sound more like marketing claims made to instill fear and uncertainty, especially since they do not cite any works published in scientific, peer-reviewed literature. One could just as well make an argument that since none of the manufacturers of artist materials release their full formulations, those could just a well produce similar problems.
Therefore, aside from this clarification, I would also like to ask about recommendations for ground alternatives for engineered wood (specifically HDF and MDF).

tightening a stretched canvas

Question asked 2017-02-05 17:39:35 ... Most recent comment 2017-02-05 17:43:00
Flexible Supports
What is the very best way to tighten a stretched canvas ( no keys, rigid stretcher frame) ?  I have  just stretched a 40 x 48 canvas with  an excellent tight "thong" sound when finished ( one week ago). Now, it has relaxed - no sags, nor pulls- but just not as tight as I like to paint on. ( info: Fredrix's Dixie 123, acrylic pre-primed roll) THANK YOU for your kind reply in advance.
Nancy

yellowing in oil paint films

Question asked 2017-02-02 09:43:44 ... Most recent comment 2017-02-02 17:29:00
Oil Paint Varnishes
I understand that there may be a temporary yellowing of a fresh paint film, if it is stored in the dark, which is reversible with the application of sunlight, and there is a more long term, permanent yellowing that occurs over decades, if not centuries.____Isn't this long term yellowing due more to the aging of damar, copal, or other or other varnishes used in  or on  the top of the paint layer than to the drying oil used in the paint layer?_____Thanks for your thoughts.___Richard

Lightfastness prismacolor col erase pencils.

Question asked 2017-02-02 13:41:33 ... Most recent comment 2017-02-02 15:55:00
ASTM Drawing Materials
I have noticed a lot of my favorite contemporary artists, like Colleen barry and Scott Waddell, make use of these prismacolor color pencils, for some pretty exceptional work. I question the durability of the material though. Prismacolor does not have a chart on this line of pencils. Specifically,
Carmine red
Scarlet red
Vermilion
Tuscan red
Terra cotta
Brown
Black
Tuscan red
Terra cotta
Brown
Black
I know the cpsa has their workbook, but I am a very poor artist and don't have 45$ currently.

speed of drying in alkyds and advisability over traditional oil paint films

Question asked 2017-01-31 09:37:19 ... Most recent comment 2017-01-31 16:08:00
Alkyd
Recognizing the increased flexibility and speed of drying in alkyd paint films over linseed oil/stand oil paint  films...

1.   Would you recommend the use of alkyd mediums or alkyd paints over traditional oil mediums and paints for the most permanent, strong, flexible, non cracking and non-yellowing paint film?

2.  What are the disadvantages of alkyd mediums, if any?

3.  As alkyds in artist oil paints are only a few decades old, how confident are you that alkyd mediums will continue to out pace oil mediums in producing superior paint films?

4.  To minimize the use of driers, would it be advisable to seek an alkyd synthesized from drying oils, linseed or walnut, vs non drying oils, safflower, soy, sunflower, etc?

Thank you so much for your expertise.

Richard

walnut oil compared with linseed oil

Question asked 2017-01-31 11:51:09 ... Most recent comment 2017-01-31 16:07:00
Drying Oils Alkyd
How does a walnut oil film compare with a linseed oil film in strength and flexibility?......   I know that it is a slower drying oil and will eventually reach the same level of yellowness and embrittlement over the course of decades as linseed, but will take longer to do so.......  I am considering the use of a walnut alkyd, added to a walnut oil medium to compensate for the slower drying time of the latter. .... .. The lower viscosity of both, vs stand oil with an added alkyd medium, would then require less OMS to thin it out, resulting in reduced solvent evaporation in an enclosed studio.   (I live in MN.   Either the heat is on or the air conditioning, ha, ha)....   Walnut oil is also drying oil and I suspect that a walnut alkyd may use less drier in manufacture than those alkyds made from semi-drying oils....Thank you for your thoughts....Richard

birch support

Question asked 2017-01-26 21:34:58 ... Most recent comment 2017-01-29 16:27:00
Sizes and Adhesives Rigid Supports
pva size for birch panel?

speed of drying in alkyds

Question asked 2017-01-29 10:47:47 ... Most recent comment 2017-01-29 12:41:00
Alkyd
1.  Is the speed of drying in alkyd mediums and paints due to the chemical nature of of the alkyd compounds themselves, or are driers usually added to achieve their drying speed?

2.   I understand that not all alkyds are created equal, being synthesized from different oils.   Do some alkyd mediums form stronger, more flexible paint films than others?  (In other words, are they all equally good in forming a reliable paint film?)



I'm trying to avoid excess driers, as they tend to promote cross linking of the paint film indefinitely (faster embrittlement), but wish to speed up the drying time  of titanium white to be comparable to cremnitz white, which I may abandon use of because of cost.   Was thinking of using a small amount of alkyd medium in a stand oil medium to compensate for the slow drying time of titanium,  i.e. 10% alkyd, 30% stand oil, 60% OMS.

Thank you for your insights,

Richard

PS   I dislike being held hostage to the much higher cost of cremnitz white and am seeking the next best alternative for painting landscape on panels.   I will miss cremnitz, however.

Coatings for new stretchers

Question asked 2017-01-26 18:01:16 ... Most recent comment 2017-01-27 01:20:00
Flexible Supports Other
Hi, would you recommend coating a new wood stretcher with a coating of some kind, such as a water-borne polyurethane to seal the wood? Should I be concerned about volatile emissions from the bare wood on my cotton or linen canvas over the long term? The stretcher bars are bevelled. Thanks.

Question asked 2017-01-26 21:34:15 ... Most recent comment 2017-01-27 01:18:00
birch support

searching for good film forming alternatives to lead white

Question asked 2017-01-26 10:01:22 ... Most recent comment 2017-01-26 10:11:00
Oil Paint Pigments
With concerns regarding the use of any quantity of zinc white and the increasing use of safflower and walnut oil as a binder in white oil paint, what alternatives, if any, do we have to purchase a good film forming white as an alternative to the increasing unaffordable lead or cremnitz white?

Safflower, walnut and poppy oil are not thorough driers, zinc becomes brittle and apparently affects both titanium and lead white when used in any quantity, titanium creates a "spongy" paint layer that is not tough, but cremnitz white is increasingly unaffordable or contains one of the above oils above or zinc, in some cases.   Any recommendations?   Which poor alternative do I choose?

PS  I paint on panels and use stand oil as a medium, with lead white, so that film toughness and flexibility are maximized on an inflexible support.

Thank you for your insights.

Richard


White chalk

Question asked 2017-01-24 12:43:49 ... Most recent comment 2017-01-24 13:55:00
Chalk Drawing Materials Pencil
I am curious about what the white chalk of the old masters was made of, and where it might be found today. Currently I use generals white charcoal pencil, which I believe is some proprietary blend, and am curious about its lightfastness. I contacted generals but have yet to hear back.

Large surface supports

Question asked 2017-01-21 10:10:27 ... Most recent comment 2017-01-21 10:35:00
Art Conservation Topics Flexible Supports Mural Painting Oil Paint
What is the better/best painting support for large scale easel painting (Las Meninas or The Raft of the Medusa come to mind)
I personally find myself between a rock and a hard place when it comes to large scale painting supports. As many of these forums have explained, the hard panel surface is far more structurally sound than its canvas/linen counter part. On the other hand, when you want to create painting larger than sheet material size, the seam will undoubtedly rear its face during the life of the painting. I realize there are also ways to join boards to make a larger sheet surface, but my gut tells me those seams could cause problems down the line, as well. There may not be an ideal surface, but is there a best surface for this endeavor?

18th century British Pigments

Question asked 2017-01-20 11:09:48 ... Most recent comment 2017-01-20 11:33:00
Art Conservation Topics Pigments Scientific Analysis Technical Art History
I have the good fortune to have acquired an 18th century British family portrait.  The painting has an inscription that dates it to 1754.  I am taking X-sections in hopes to study the layer structure, pigments and possibly help with an artist attribution.  The work is unsigned but similar to other works by Arthur Devis a British portrait painter who was active in London at the right time.  As I rarely work on paintings that are not American 19th century works I welcome any advice or insight.  I do have sampling opportunities in many different colors in the painting (according to areas of loss). 
Thank you in advance
Nina Roth-Wells

Oleo

Question asked 2017-01-19 10:25:33 ... Most recent comment 2017-01-19 11:45:00
Technical Art History
Deseo saber sobre composición,materiales materiales en las obras de arte victoriano sobre todo en John w. Waterhouse.

Shellac

Question asked 2017-01-17 08:43:08 ... Most recent comment 2017-01-17 08:53:00
Egg Tempera Other Rigid Supports
1. Does shellac discolor with age?  I’ve read both that it’s photostable (whatever degree of yellow is present when it’s initially made, depending on the cut, does not change over time) and also that it gets more yellow with age.   I have a 18 year-old test strip that shows no color change so far, but perhaps that’s not long enough to say.  Has there been testing on the yellowing of shellac?

2.  My understanding is that shellac gets brittle with age.  If I’m using it as an isolating layer on tempera (which also gets brittle with age) on a panel, does the solidity of the support address this concern?  Or is brittleness always a concern, regardless?

3.  I believe shellac becomes increasing resistant to solvents as it ages – is this irrelevant if its purpose is to isolate?  In the case of isolating, could this be a sort of benefit, like a paint film curing and becoming insoluble, so to speak?

Thanks as always for your help.  Koo Schadler

Drawing Storage

Question asked 2017-01-09 16:55:26 ... Most recent comment 2017-01-09 17:13:00
Drawing Materials Storage
I have a growing stack of drawings on paper in graphite, charcoal, conte.   Is it really necessary to  interleaf the drawings? And is Tyvek the best material for these types of media? If you're on the site it says glassine is not good for long-term storage and mylar has electro static charge so I'm just wondering how I can store my drawings. Thanks.

Tacky Paint

Question asked 2017-01-07 17:03:07 ... Most recent comment 2017-01-07 17:24:00
Oil Paint
Is it safe to apply fresh paint over or into a layer of paint that has begun to set and has become tacky? Is it safe to blend tacky paint? Can either of these cause adhesion problems, etc.? No medium is being used, only a little bit of solvent.

oil colors on acrylic gesso

Question asked 2017-01-07 13:13:02 ... Most recent comment 2017-01-07 13:16:00
What is opinion of conservators and specialist about paint with oil colors on acrylic gesso. Will have problems and delamination for oil colors after years ? Thank you .

Medallion canvas

Question asked 2017-01-07 13:09:59 ... Most recent comment 2017-01-07 13:15:00
Industrial and Non-Traditional Products Oil Paint Studio Tools and Tips
Dear all, I am facing a problem. I am an art reproduction specialist, and until now I have been making all of my canvasses, from stretching on the frame, to prime grounding. I had done only one medallion in my career, and with success. It was longer than stretching a canvas on a square frame, but it wasn't that difficult. There were no folds, and I used tacks. I recently had a new order with a medallion format, and to save myself some time, I tried ordering to a national specialist a handcrafted but ready-made medallion canvas. I was shoked to receive it, first in only a thin cellophane wrap, but worst is, the cloth was stretched with staples, onto the back. Also the staples were put very close to one another, it felt like the number was too much, and they were not regularly applied. As a conservator too, and being aware of the quality of the materials I use, I find this outrageous.
I called the craftman to complain but he assured me during an hour that nobody ever complained, that that's how it's done, never in is career anyone said otherwise, and should I have wanted tacks instead of staples I should have asked. Now, again, this company is specialized in traditional, handcrafted canvasses, and their clients range about all the national museums.
I am lost here, what are your hints on the subject ? Am I to idealist to ask for tacks on a medallion canvas ? He said this would not have allowed to avoid folds entirely, but again, I did one myself with success. What do you think, do museums allow art reproductions to be made in these conditions ? Thank you again for your answers.

S.G

Mixed Media with Color-aid and Acrylic paint

Question asked 2017-01-06 17:14:48 ... Most recent comment 2017-01-06 17:20:00
Acrylic Flexible Supports
Hi, What kind of issue can I expect if applying acrylic paint on Color-aid paper? It will be adhered to cold press illustration board.  Thanks

What is the best way to record my name and materials used on the back of the canvas

Question asked 2017-01-06 13:31:16 ... Most recent comment 2017-01-06 13:32:00
Matting, Framing, and Glazing Other
Hello! I would like to know what is the best way to record what materials I used (pigments mediums and varnishes on the back of the canvas) I was thinking about going to a printshop and getting this info printed on canvas and gluing this small patch to the back of the artwork, but i am afraid this might disfigure the artwork down the line, same with using permanent markers. I will appreciate your input and help! Thanks!

GAC 400 on canvas back

Question asked 2017-01-06 12:24:16 ... Most recent comment 2017-01-06 12:30:00
Flexible Supports Acrylic
Hi, I have 84x30 inch canvas that is sized and primed, Gamblin PVA and Oil Primer. It is stretched on those 1x2 so called gallery stretchers. No matter how tight I try to stretch it I still get a wobbly bounce after each brush stroke. Is it safe to apply GAC 400 the back of the canvas to try and stiffen it up and reduce the movement, The stretcher can't be keyed. Thanks.

Prime grounds for canvases

Question asked 2017-01-03 13:54:46 ... Most recent comment 2017-01-03 16:17:00
Grounds / Priming
Hello, I would be interested in knowing what you use for priming on canvasses, what are your recipes and ways of applying ? Precisions on century accuracy and references would be very much appreciated ! Thank you in advance for sharing your discoveries and works on this very basic but fondamental subject.

How do you grind lead white?

Question asked 2017-01-01 13:43:55 ... Most recent comment 2017-01-02 09:39:00
Egg Tempera Pigments Paint Making
How do you grind lead white? It seems to float on the surface of the water.

Gilding over Egg tempera

Question asked 2017-01-01 14:23:56 ... Most recent comment 2017-01-02 09:39:00
Egg Tempera Gilding
Can you place gold leaf over an area that has been painted in egg tempera?

Varnishing Egg Tempera

Question asked 2016-12-28 19:10:49 ... Most recent comment 2016-12-28 19:17:00
Egg Tempera Varnishes
I have been experimenting with varnishing egg tempera paintings and have several questions I’d like MITRA’s input on.

1.  As with oil, it’s generally presumed best to wait until a tempera painting has polymerized before varnishing (understanding that polymerization is dependent on number and thickness of layers, drying conditions, etc.)   Polymerization in ET seems to me to occur within 3 to 6 months; to test I either polish the surface (cured paint has a certain feeling of hardness) and/or carefully wipe a corner with a damp rag (the water beads up, no paint lifts).  These ideas come from my experience, not from any definitive timeline or test from a conservator.  Is there consensus on how long it takes, more or less, for an egg tempera painting to cure, and how to test for polymerization?  

2.  Having spent a couple of decades experimenting with varnishing tempera, I’ve come to believe an isolating layer is necessary (at least on a relatively new tempera; it may be different for a centuries-old painting).  In my experience an egg tempera surface, whether a day or year-old, is still absorbent enough (because of high PVC) that varnishes sink in to varying degrees.  Since any layer applied directly atop seemingly becomes linked with the underlying paint, it seems best to first cover the tempera with a very thin layer of an isolator (I’ve experimented with casein, shellac, B72, Golden’s GAC500 & Gel Medium, Laropal, PVA both water and acetone based), then put a reversible varnish on top of the isolator.   This allows the varnish to go on evenly, stay distinct from the paint layers, and be reversible.  Your thoughts?

3.  If the above is true – it works best to isolate a tempera before varnishing – does it matter how long the tempera has polymerized before applying the isolator (since the isolator becomes linked with the paint regardless of the paint’s age)? 

Well, I have more questions, but that’s enough for now!

Thanks,

Koo Schadler

Wax medium in acrylic paint

Question asked 2016-12-27 13:10:38 ... Most recent comment 2016-12-27 17:53:00
Acrylic
Hi,
I'm a painter using acrylics and am thinking about incorporating wax medium (typically geared towards oil paint)  into the acrylic paint. Will the wax medium merge well with polymer based paint?

Tear in canvas

Question asked 2016-12-26 14:40:03 ... Most recent comment 2016-12-26 16:05:00
Acrylic Flexible Supports Art Conservation Topics
I have a very tiny (1/4") tear (slit) in an acrylic on canvas.  Is there a way to safely repair this?

SID, Traditional Gesso, and Egg Tempera

Question asked 2016-12-24 12:25:56 ... Most recent comment 2016-12-24 17:21:00
Egg Tempera Grounds / Priming Rigid Supports
I have a few questions about SID (support induced discoloration) relative to traditional gesso and egg tempera.

1.  The “Rigid Supports” article posted on this website, when discussing hardboard, says “SID will occur if the oily or resinous material migrates through the size or seal and and stains the ground or paint layers”.  My understanding is that oils and/or resins in or atop engineered wood-based panels are stable and cannot move or migrate – they are polymerized or cured and can’t go anywhere.  Yes, no?

2.  My understanding is that SID is caused by materials in the wood itself (tannins, dirt, sap, starches), drawn up into the gesso by water based grounds and paints.  Yes, no?

3.   Has there been testing to see if SID occurs in a traditional gesso ground and/or egg tempera?  I’ve done a couple of tests myself (painting a word on a panel using GAC 100, applying traditional gesso all over, seeing if the word later appeared) - very little to no SID appeared.   Could the very high solid content (percentage of chalk) in traditional gesso inhibit SID? 

4.  The various products for blocking SID (Archiva-seal, GAC 100, PVA) are all polymer based and designed to sit under acrylic or oil grounds, not traditional gesso. I tried a crosshatch adhesion test of traditional gesso atop GAC 100 and adhesion was not great.  If SID is a concern with egg tempera, any ideas for how to block it?   I presume a layer of cloth applied with PVA to a engineered panel would do it, but is there a simpler option?

Thanks!

Koo Schadler

oil on birch plywood example

Question asked 2016-12-23 16:02:53 ... Most recent comment 2016-12-23 16:42:00
Rigid Supports Oil Paint
I just asked about painting oils on birch plywood, which I do directly, no primer. To see an example go to www.bowerart.com> galleries> painting and click on the thumbnail at the bottom left of a man in a blue sweater. That is an example. you can see the raw wood of the plywood. The painting is 2or 3 years old an looks like the day I painted it. Will it hold up for 500 years?

oil on birch plywood

Question asked 2016-12-23 15:50:16 ... Most recent comment 2016-12-23 16:39:00
Is it archival? I have painted on quarter inch birch plywood and like it a lot. i like the mid tone, surface, absorbency, durability, light weight, price and it has never shown a problem. I sometimes do not even seal it but paint right onto it, never a problem so far. Some opine that over time the oils will do this and that especially without priming, much like with canvas. Some say ue "marine" plywood only. Anybody?

Terraskin "paper"

Question asked 2016-12-21 21:28:35 ... Most recent comment 2016-12-22 13:11:00
Drawing Materials Flexible Supports Industrial and Non-Traditional Products
There are a lot of artist starting to use terraskin as a paper alternative particularly those doing metal point.  Their website explictly says that the stuff is designed to degrade under "the right environmental conditions" of heat, moisture and UV light.  For this reason it seems to me very risky to use.  Others argue that if kept indoors and protected from UV light it should be fine.  I don't think once an artist sells a piece of work that they have any control over how it is displayed.  Could you please weight in about the potential longevity and issues of these stone "papers" for fine art work?

Saving a slick/oily painting

Question asked 2016-12-21 13:06:33 ... Most recent comment 2016-12-21 14:31:00
Oil Paint
Are there good ways to prepare a layer of paint for overpainting that has become overly oily or slick?  Sanding with coarse sandpaper still leaves a surface that squeaks if I rub my finger across it.

How long should we wait before painting on top of a painting in progress

Question asked 2016-12-18 02:22:48 ... Most recent comment 2016-12-18 11:22:00
Oil Paint
How can we best paint slowly to get a good structure in the painting? Meaning indirect painting such as subsequent corrections, revising the design, altering a colour,  glazing, scumbling (when you want the lower layer to be firm enough not to lift but you want to do it as soon as possible) or adding finishing details in fatter paint?

Beyond starting with thin fast drying pigments or fast dry modified matte paints and observing critical pigment volume or fat. Beyond that, we mix different pigments with different drying times and change our minds. Which pigments are notorious for moving more as they dry? As a general guide for an average situation (knowing there are multiple variables including pigments and additions, weather and ground) how long is too short? eg skinned over paint that's still wet below shouldn't be painted over as it's still in it's active phase of weight gain and loss as it dries (is this typically 3-4 weeks for a thinnish, moderate drying time pigment in linseed oil with no driers or alkyds added?) How long should we wait before painting on top of a painting in progress? thank you

framing painting with glazing

Question asked 2016-12-18 03:16:44 ... Most recent comment 2016-12-18 05:03:00
Matting, Framing, and Glazing Rigid Supports Sizes and Adhesives
Hello, I want to glaze (plexiglas) my paintings. What kind of rigid panel should I attach the canvas to that doesn't hold too much moisture beneath the finished painting? Hardboard is heavy and can warp. ACM can be expensive or tricky to glue canvas to. Does glueing the linen to the support using acrylic medium attract extra moisture?  Will framing behind glazing restrict the oxidisation of the paint? How much space is needed between the glazing and the painting and a rear board?

Creating Glazes with Egg Tempera

Question asked 2016-12-16 15:56:21 ... Most recent comment 2016-12-16 16:13:00
Art Conservation Topics Egg Tempera Mural Painting Solvents and Thinners
I'm trying to develop some glazing techniques to use on egg tempera paintings. I need to slow the drying time down. How should I go about this ?

What Additive Makes an Acrylic Medium Dry Tacky?

Question asked 2016-12-14 23:46:43 ... Most recent comment 2016-12-15 00:03:00
I mostly use GAC 700 and Specialty Polymers BH61 because I like their clarity when dry.  They both have very high solids content.  While they seem similar in many regards they are very different in their tackiness when dry.  GAC 700 is very tacky and BH61 is very hard.  I notice GAC 700 will be flexible soon after it is dry but BH61 will take weeks to become flexible.  After they are fully cured both can be bent completely over without breaking.  I wonder if the "gumminess" of GAC 700 occurs because it is made to be flexible sooner and if this occurs by an additive that creates the stickiness of the final film and what that additive might be?   I have tried propylene glycol but I don't think that is it.   Also I notice that BH61 will sometimes form fine cracks (not fissures) in certain drying conditions and I wonder if this is related to the tackiness?

Commercially prepared canvas or linen already mounted onto rigid supports

Question asked 2016-12-14 18:30:40 ... Most recent comment 2016-12-14 18:34:00
Rigid Supports
I don't know if this is proper on this site to ask for the names of companies that offer already sized and primed canvas or linen mounted onto rigid supports that are archival and do not contain zinc white? I don't like to spend my time preparing supports. I know they will be more expensive when already prepped but it does save a lot of time even though I may still add another coat of oil ground or acrylic ground on top.  Thank you.

Fast Drying, Fat Paints

Question asked 2016-12-14 11:19:45 ... Most recent comment 2016-12-14 18:16:00
Oil Paint Pigments
Some paints are fast drying but have a high oil content to pigment ratio out of the tube.  Is it safe to use these in an underpainting?

Using and Priming Non-Artist Polyester Canvas

Question asked 2016-12-13 19:44:14 ... Most recent comment 2016-12-13 21:14:00
Flexible Supports Grounds / Priming
I'd like to try painting on polyester canvas. Unfortunately, it's difficult to find artist polyester canvas where I live; equally difficult is getting untreated, "loomstate" polyester fabric. Easy to find, though, is polyester canvas for inkjet printing, and plain polyester canvas from the fabric store. My question is, are either of those an acceptable substitute, and safe to prime with acrylic gesso? I'm concerned that washing the canvas wouldn't properly remove the coatings it would have, causing adhesion problems for the gesso. Perhaps it would be be wiser to stick with cotton and polycotton canvases, made for artists, until a source for artist polyester canvas becomes available? Thank you.

Dusty oil painting

Question asked 2016-12-12 06:24:22 ... Most recent comment 2016-12-12 11:55:00
Handling and Transportation Oil Paint
What is the best way to clean a dusty oil painting? Can I use a tack cloth? Should I pour water and wipe it off?

Oils Bonding with Alkyds,

Question asked 2016-12-11 23:49:07 ... Most recent comment 2016-12-12 03:08:00
Alkyd Drying Oils
Do different paints with different oil binders, bond as strongly together as paints with the same oil binder? And does this apply to alkyd/oil bonds, considering alkyds are often derived from oils other than what is used as a binder in oil paint?

Order of Paint Use and Adhesion

Question asked 2016-12-11 23:16:22 ... Most recent comment 2016-12-12 03:07:00
Oil Paint
How important is using pigments of low oil content in the underpainting for adhesion of later layers? I've had problems with adhesion, even when there was sufficient tooth in the underpainting, the overpainting can be peeled or scratched off easily to reveal the first layer.  I realized after that the Titanium White I used in the underpainting was especially oily, and the overpainting white I used was not.

Gamblin Faste-Matte

Question asked 2016-12-11 23:05:28 ... Most recent comment 2016-12-12 03:06:00
Alkyd Oil Paint
Is it safe to overpaint an alkyd/linseed paint with linseed paint?  These Gamblin Faste-Matte paints have a calcium carbonate additive to help with adhesion, but I am worried about varying degrees of flexibility between paint layers, especially because I use a lot of linseed Titanium White in the overpainting.  If not, is there a white you would recommend for underpainting?

Oiling out

Question asked 2016-12-11 22:56:34 ... Most recent comment 2016-12-12 03:06:00
Oil Paint
Is oiling out necessary for good adhesion between paint layers? If the layer is sunken in or matte, does it need to be oiled out? 

Shellac for Sealing a Wood Panel

Question asked 2016-12-10 19:33:02 ... Most recent comment 2016-12-10 19:42:00
Grounds / Priming
I have been instructed to use Shellac on Marine Plywood for a panel to paint on. The Shellac is obviously to seal the wood, but how do I get the ground to be white? Do I gesso the wood first?. Do I apply Gesso on the Shellac? do I mixe the Gesso WITH the Shellac? Once it is Gessoed, do I also need to put some kind of an Oil Paint Ground on it? I don't really like to do the prep work, I prefer someone else do the material preparation and I can just paint. I can't seem to get what I need pre-prepared however so my next wish would have been an all-in-one spray to make short-shrift of the work, but that doesn't appear to be available either.   POST SCRIPT: I actually asked this elsewhere and the artist who made the suggestion to me answered, knowing the effect I was after and said that I don't need any white or gesso at all to get the affect that I want.  The Shellac is intended as a sealer on the wood that is not too slippery or absorbent to paint on and to  allow the wet , streaky brush marks I am looking for, with the apricot wood color coming through.    However, what if I DO want the ground to be white?  Do I tint the shellac itself with lead white oil paint, Gamblin oil Ground, or Titanium White Oil?

Wax additive issues

Question asked 2016-12-09 09:16:08 ... Most recent comment 2016-12-09 10:34:00
Oil Paint Paint Mediums Varnishes
When using Oleogel as a medium, does the wax in Oleogel pose an issue to safely cleaning the painting in the future? Or create issues with the longevity of the painting by making it more susceptible to heat or other issues?

'Tyvek' and its use in art

Question asked 2016-12-07 20:08:20 ... Most recent comment 2016-12-08 01:39:00
Flexible Supports Storage Industrial and Non-Traditional Products Other
Along the question about 'Terraskin', I want to know more about 'Tyvek'-- I have seen it used in a few installations recently, in sculptural applications. Other than the convenience and weight factor (compared to an actual heavy sculpture), what are your thoughts about its use? Best practice?

And can this be adhered to canvas for dimensional effects? If yes, what did you use to adhere and how would you protect it for the future?

Technique used for painting over old paintings

Question asked 2016-12-02 15:48:08 ... Most recent comment 2016-12-07 11:03:00
Flexible Supports
I have several used linen canvases which, rather than throwing away, I would like to reuse. Is this possible? Thanks in advance

cracking on true gesso ground

Question asked 2016-12-04 15:32:55 ... Most recent comment 2016-12-07 11:03:00
Grounds / Priming Oil Paint Rigid Supports
I have some hairline cracks in my true gesso ground, im wondering if these will continue to get bigger and perhaps crack subsequent layers of oil paint. 

Oil painting

Question asked 2016-12-04 14:37:35 ... Most recent comment 2016-12-07 11:03:00
Oil Paint
I am painting with Old Holland oil paints using a small amount of linseed as a medium, on linen canvas. My painting sometimes take several weeks to reach the first stage in completion. After that period I sometimes need to make small changes. At what point after the initial painting has been completed is it too risky to continue adding more changes? For example if I  'finished' a painting, could I then return to it six months after to make a change either a glaze or further painting?

signature on the back of the canvas

Question asked 2016-12-05 12:30:39 ... Most recent comment 2016-12-07 11:03:00
Other Studio Tools and Tips Art Conservation Topics
What´s the best way for a signature at the back of the canvas that wouldn´t eventually penetrate through the ground and paint layers and thus affect the face of the painting - become visible? (Size of the signature; how to dillute paint - oil (if at all) or acrylics that the color would flow freely in order to paint a signature on the unprimed/raw side of the canvas? Use of other dry mediums like chalk, graphit, pastel?) Thank you!

Toxicity of pastel pigments

Question asked 2016-12-05 15:49:00 ... Most recent comment 2016-12-07 11:03:00
Pastel Health and Safety
Are there any health hazards when blending pastels with bare hands?

Conductive binder

Question asked 2016-12-06 09:52:42 ... Most recent comment 2016-12-07 11:03:00
Pigments Paint Making Paint Additives Paint Mediums Other
Every now and then, I have to make conductive paint with my students. Up until now, I do it with graphite and acrylic binder, which sort of works. Sort of, because the acrylic is an insulator. So basically what I am doing now, is to underbind the paint, so it still conducts current.
I know there are conductive binders though. Ulysses Jackson from Golden suggested polytiophene as a conductive binder, but I cannot find it anywhere. Does anyone know if there is another conductive binder that could work?

Red bole

Question asked 2016-12-07 10:11:57 ... Most recent comment 2016-12-07 10:57:00
Animal Glue Art Conservation Topics Drying Oils Flexible Supports Gilding Grounds / Priming Oil Paint Paint Making Pigments Rigid Supports Sizes and Adhesives Technical Art History
I am searching for information on the use of red bole in oil painting. My understanding is that it is a clay [primarily used in building at this point] that can be diluted to cream consistency, mixed equally with warmed RSG, and applied over traditional gesso for toning a surface. Setting aside the structural debates of stretched linen/canvas surfaces, how can one use this over such a surface. Are there any pigments that approximate this clay, or is there an oil ground approach that provides a comparable alternative? Thank you for any time or considerations.

Migrating graphite

Question asked 2016-11-30 23:18:54 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-30 23:36:00
Drying Oils Oil Paint Pencil Pigments
I see warnings of the possibility of graphite migrating to the surface of an oil painting over and over again.

I have been using graphite for over 40 years without seeing any migration, and considering that graphite is used as a pigment in oil, I'm inclined to think that graphite migration is a myth.
Is there any evidence that graphite can or does migrate through oil paint?
Note, I'm not talking about a drawing becoming visible because the paint over it has become more transparent over time.

Thanks.

Titian's Color palette

Question asked 2016-11-30 16:15:33 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-30 16:47:00
Pigments Technical Art History
What colors did Titian use

Flashing Cement

Question asked 2016-11-30 05:51:35 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-30 09:12:00
Industrial and Non-Traditional Products
I recently watched a video, on New York Academy of Art Facebook Page. Vicent Desiderio is using flashing cement in his work. I guess the reasoning being it is made to withstand harsh weather conditions, heat and cold. This must have some pit falls, even though he produces remarkably evocative beautiful work. Can this be considered a safe material to work with? Thanks, Steven Lewis

hard, black wax?

Question asked 2016-11-29 15:44:53 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-29 15:58:00
Industrial and Non-Traditional Products Other
I am looking for a hard black wax as a surface covering on cement sculpture. Hard enough to reject fingerprints. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Mixing chalk directly into your paint while painting.

Question asked 2016-11-29 14:10:40 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-29 14:17:00
Chalk Oil Paint Other Paint Additives Paint Mediums
What are your thoughts regarding mixing Chalk, calcite, barite, kaolin (clay), talc, silica (quartz) and bentonite directly into the paint or into the medium while painting. I love some of the effects that are possible when you add chalk or barite into your paint on the palette, but I'm worried about permanence. I don't use any mediums except for linseed oil and or stand oil.

Is there a good, practical, reversible marouflage adhesive out there ?

Question asked 2016-11-29 07:35:26 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-29 09:25:00
Mural Painting Rigid Supports
It seems that traditional marouflage adhesives were made of mixtures of animal glue and starch paste. Such adhesives are generally strong and can last for decades, but are quite reversible by mechanical means. Are there any modern products that could be equally strong and reversible for adhering painted canvas to walls or ceilings? Perhaps commercial wallpaper pastes with the addition of animal glue? Are there any tried and true adhesive recipes for this? It seems they are hard to find.

what finish to use

Question asked 2016-11-28 18:39:45 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-28 20:23:00
Acrylic
I have recently been creating some abstracts using acrylics. In order to create cells I have watered down the paint considerably, ( it seems to be about density) Now that I have weakened the bond I was wondering if I use the pouring medium from Liquitex on top of the finished canvas or board, would that seal the painting underneath or should I use varnish or resin? Thank you!

Gamblin Rich Gold oil paint

Question asked 2016-11-25 19:04:02 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-25 22:13:00
Is Gamblin Rich Gold oil paint okay to use in outer layers in my paintings? I paint indirectly and will use it for small areas such as on a bird’s feathers or parts of leaves, etc. I don’t know anything about these metal paints and hoping they’re durable paints. I bought it on a whim. In case this is relevant, I only use a little linseed oil as my medium. Thank you for starting this site for artists!

Encaustic

Question asked 2016-11-23 01:39:58 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-23 09:09:00
I have an encaustic work on a stretched headed canvas  that is delaminating. It is melted crayon. Can it be warmed to readhere it?.

I have an encaustic work on a stretched gesso canvas that is delaminating. It is melted crayon. Can it be warmed to readhere it?.

Question asked 2016-11-23 09:03:55 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-23 09:04:00
Art Conservation Topics Encaustic

Using Beva products to glue linen to sealed hardboard

Question asked 2016-11-22 06:01:00 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-22 07:14:00
Rigid Supports Sizes and Adhesives
What is the difference between BEVA 371, Beva gel and BEVA 371 film? The film is really quite expensive so I would rather buy a gallon and just paint it on, as long as that will have the same effect of reducing bubbles.

20 Year Old Pastel Sticks

Question asked 2016-11-21 13:34:07 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-21 13:35:00
Pastel
20 year old pastel sticks Question: I have a fantastic collection of fine pastel sticks. From Schminke to Rembrant, to Windsor Newton, etc. Perhaps 1000. I had to stop using pastel due to living in very hot climates year round and limited interior work space/health. I am now ready to take pastel painting up again, and find that many sticks are pretty chalky and or dry. Is there any safe way to revive them? Thank you very much.

20 year old pastel sticks

Question asked 2016-11-21 13:25:52 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-21 13:34:00
Pastel
I have a fantastic collection of fine pastel sticks.  From Schminke to Rembrant, to Windsor Newton, etc.  Perhaps 1000.  I had to stop using pastel due to living in very hot climates year round and limited interior work space/health.  I am not ready to take pastel painting up again, and find that many sticks are pretty chalky and or dry.  Is there any safe way to revive them?  Thank you very much.

Sorry, mistype: please replace not ready to NOW ready.

Question asked 2016-11-21 13:27:08 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-21 13:34:00
Pastel
Title: 20 year old pastel sticks

Question: I have a fantastic collection of fine pastel sticks. From Schminke to Rembrant, to Windsor Newton, etc. Perhaps 1000. I had to stop using pastel due to living in very hot climates year round and limited interior work space/health. I am not ready to take pastel painting up again, and find that many sticks are pretty chalky and or dry. Is there any safe way to revive them? Thank you very much.

Ground preparation

Question asked 2016-11-21 09:32:51 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-21 09:42:00
Grounds / Priming Drying Oils
I was at. A product information session during which the paint company representative recommended applying linseed oil to the ground, wiping off all the excess until the surface appeared dry, allowing the surface to dry 24 hours as a solution/to avoid sinking in. Is this good practice?

Studio lights (natural looking light)

Question asked 2016-11-20 17:09:09 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-20 17:39:00
Studio Tools and Tips
I'm now painting in a basement studio and the light is terrible. I bought white 5500Kelvin bulbs but to my dismay they look bluish... which are your favourite brands of white light bulbs? It can be any type of light bulb, as I can fit both halogen and fluorescent. Thanks.

Activating BEVA from back of Panel

Question asked 2016-11-19 23:55:34 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-20 00:02:00
Art Conservation Topics Other Rigid Supports
When adhering a painting on linen to an ACM/Dibond panel using BEVA (Solution or film) using a domestic iron, is it possible to sufficiently/successfully activate the BEVA by applying the heat to the back of the aluminium panel rather than the front of the linen/painting - in other words with the linen/painting side face-down rather than up? I ask because I've only ever applied the heat to the side of the Panel with the linen, but the reverse is always warm afterwards.

Glossiest varnishes

Question asked 2016-11-18 20:24:23 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-18 21:55:00
Varnishes
Hi everyone, which is the glossiest varnish or finishing technique that you know of? I'd like my paintings to keep that 'wet look' but damar is still not glossy enough... ideally a varnish that won't discolour over the years. I don't mind even burnishing it if you feel that can improve gloss? Thanks.

Zicronium Silicate/Zicronium Dioxide PW12

Question asked 2016-11-18 10:26:24 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-18 10:36:00
Pigments
What are your thoughts on PW12.77990?  I saw this on Kremer's online shop.

Testing a new feature

Question asked 2016-11-11 12:41:52 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-17 10:28:00
Please do not approve this question, I am using it to test a new feature.

How do I prepare the surface of an ACM panel?

Question asked 2016-08-21 10:53:21 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-16 18:37:00
Rigid Supports
I am interested in learning more about appropriate ways to prepare an ACM panel

Acrylic gel over oil stick

Question asked 2016-11-16 10:59:03 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-16 12:03:00
Acrylic Oil Paint
I recently over painted a work that I decided needed it.  The acrylic work had an area with R & F oil stick on it.  I thought the gel medium would allow this to be fine but need to ask.The R & F was rough.

Best painting medium for flexible surface

Question asked 2016-11-16 00:07:22 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-16 06:18:00
Acrylic Alkyd Flexible Supports Handling and Transportation Oil Paint Paint Mediums Storage
I have been asked to paint a backdrop for a photographer, on a large canvas (5' x 8') with the following criteria:
- the canvas will be rolled up so it must be flexible and not crack over time.
- the end result must be matte, not shiny.

I'm used to painting in oil, with a strong preference for oil, but I'm thinking acrylics would be the better choice. I"m thinking acrylic paint on canvas as acrylic can be flexible and inexpensive over a large area of canvas. There would be just two colours and those pigments are very inexpensive, but can be extended with a matte medium.

Alkyd is also flexible, am I correct; and mediums could be added to oil paint, with a little bit of wax medium to matte it out, but I'm concerned with the flexibility of the surface if I use wax medium in any capacity.

We don't expect this to last forever, but the photographer should be able to get the most of this for a long time. So I think we'd be happy if this piece can last for at least 5 years.

What would be recommended?

Risk assesment of cleaning and removal of varnishes on historical works

Question asked 2016-11-15 11:11:44 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-15 13:39:00
Art Conservation Topics Mural Painting Oil Paint Scientific Analysis Solvents and Thinners Technical Art History Varnishes
I was encouraged to reformulate my FB question below here by Kristin DeGhetaldi. Feel free to moderate my message to be more on point and specific. Anyway, I wondered about the practice within the restorers/conservators community worldwide  on the removal of varnish or cleaning of historical paintings? Is there a consensus to tread really carefully when handling such a task? A standard procedure in place for assessing risks of overcleaning? One would assume that to be the case but the horror stories of overcleaned/altered works of art in the (sometimes relatively recent) past are plentiful, no? Is there consensus and acceptance across the field that irreversible errors were made in the past and a determination to avoid those in the future?

Golden GAC 400 as a final varnish for acrylic painting.

Question asked 2016-11-13 13:35:24 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-13 15:39:00
Acrylic Varnishes
Would Golden GAC 400 be OK to use as a final varnish on acrylic paintings? It foams less than Golden Polymer Varnish on a fairly rough surfaced acrylic painting. I see on the Golden site they recommend GAC 100 as an isolation coat before final varnish on acrylic paintings.

Harm to linen by Napthol solvent

Question asked 2016-11-13 09:01:02 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-13 09:38:00
Art Conservation Topics Sizes and Adhesives Solvents and Thinners
Is the solvent Napthol, 'cut' 50:50 with BEVA 371b solution to adhere linen to Aluminum Composite Material, harmful to the un-sized & un-primed side of the linen (on the reverse side of the properly-prepared canvas being attached to the ACM) onto which it is applied?

Cradling Aluminum Composite Material

Question asked 2016-11-13 09:05:48 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-13 09:11:00
Rigid Supports
What materials & procedure constitute 'best-practice' when cradling large pieces of Aluminum Composite Material (Dibond etc)  to prevent warping? What materials should be used for the cradle itself, and for adhering the cradle to the ACM panel?

Removing damar varnish

Question asked 2016-11-11 09:59:36 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-12 22:20:00
Art Conservation Topics Varnishes Rigid Supports
Please give your suggestion on how to safely remove damar varnish, light touch up,  transfer canvas to aluminum support. Oil painting, 50 x 40", 30 years old

Environment concern

Question asked 2016-11-12 21:58:07 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-12 22:06:00
Health and Safety Pigments
I have heard that Italy and some other EU countries are considering outlawing pure cadmium colors as too many artists are washing their brushes filled with the paint into the water system.  For this reason I have learned to clean my brushes using no water.  Have you heard this and if so would you comment.  If not would you recommend a safe way to clean brushes that is good for the environment?  Thank you.

Ideal 'support' for large paintings

Question asked 2016-11-12 18:43:55 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-12 18:48:00
Flexible Supports Rigid Supports
Hello. I am aware of the consensus that (oil) painting on a rigid rather than flexible support is best-practice, but I still feel confused & unsure what to choose to paint on when I want to make large paintings; say 50" x 60" or larger - Aluminum composite is both hard to come-by where I live, and at 3mm thickness, is liable to bend at the sizes I'm talking about, unless cradled... but then I have been told that cradling often creates its own problems. These same issues go for wood panels too, with the added problem of increased weight & natural warp. So, back to the question: What should painters be working-on when they want to paint on a larger scale? Thank you.

Zinc Sulfide in Drying Oil

Question asked 2016-11-12 17:11:58 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-12 17:16:00
Drying Oils Oil Paint Pigments
Is zinc sulfide embrittlement comparable to that of zinc oxide? As a pigment does it pose the same risks in a paint film?

Reworking a three month old oil painting

Question asked 2016-11-11 14:35:12 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-12 12:23:00
Drying Oils Varnishes Oil Paint
I would like to make some changes to an oil painting which I thought I had finished. It is touch dry. I used Old Holland oils with a small amount of linseed oil as a medium. Should I use retouch varnish on the area I wish to rework? I have been told that I can put a layer of linseed on as an alternative to retouch varnish.. Advice much needed thank you Fiona McClean

Framing Pastels In Contact With Glass

Question asked 2016-11-12 05:28:41 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-12 11:49:00
Pastel Matting, Framing, and Glazing
I would be grateful to see any information your group might have or know of, historical or current, concerning the long standing practice by some artists of framing pastel works in direct contact with the glass -  specifically concerning mold / fungus growth. 
<p>
Of greatest interested would be any documented instances of mold / fungus growth that were known or  suspected to have been directly caused by this practice. Also wondering if there have ever been any studies or laboratory testing done to determine the propensity for mold / fungus growth of  pastel works in general and particularly those done on any of the current day sanded papers.
<p>
Please note that I am not looking for information concerning the alteration or disturbance of the pastel work by the direct contact with the glass as I have been able to test this extensively myself.

Circa 1850 portrait

Question asked 2016-11-10 18:05:59 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-10 19:10:00
Art Conservation Topics
I inherited an oil portrait which is starting to show some damage, cracking especially in the very dark areas of the hair where the paint is thick. There are some tiny missing chips of paint as well. What can I do to prevent further damage and protect this paint as much as possible? Thank you, Mona

The best practice in prepping a stretched canvas for oil paint

Question asked 2016-11-10 09:43:46 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-10 11:59:00
Art Conservation Topics Flexible Supports Sizes and Adhesives
ristin DeGhetaldi, I am researching sizing of canvas for stretched supports. I have tried both Gamblin PVA and GAC100 for preventing the leaching of oil to the canvas, to prevent rotting. I prefer using the Gamblin PVA, because it seems to soak into the canvas better, and therefore is easier to use (also, it is less cost prohibitive). However, I am still concerned about too much flexibility with either of these PVA sizings when used with acrylic gesso and stretched canvas. The fully cured oil paint will be more rigid than its substrate, which could lead to cracking, long term. To do it better, and get more compatible flexibility, I am thinking that adding GAC 400 might be a good option. This would make the substrate stiffer and of similar rigidity to the fully cured oil paint. Am I right here?

If so, what would be the best order of operation? I am guessing a layer of Gamblin PVA on the front then back, before stretching, then a layer of GAC 400 on the front, after stretching. Then I would wait a day before gessoing twice with high quality acrylic Gesso, like Golden. Then, I would wait 3 or 4 days before painting. I would appreciate your opinion. Thanks!

Stability and Historical Use of Dioptase

Question asked 2016-11-06 22:06:23 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-07 01:28:00
Pigments Technical Art History
In another forum, this pigment was mentioned as a suitable pigment to use instead of verdigris.  Can you please tell me more about this pigment, the historical period it was used in and its stability and light fastness in egg tempera or oil painting binders?

Stability of dioptase in egg tempera.

Question asked 2016-11-06 17:27:55 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-07 01:28:00
Egg Tempera Health and Safety Pigments
I've recently acquired some dioptase pigment which was recommended by a friend. It seems to be very transparent and is a beautiful colour, so very useful as a glaze. I'd love to know any information on colour lightfastness and stability. I'm using it in egg tempera. I believe it's pretty toxic. Thanks.

Using the forum

Question asked 2016-11-06 04:20:42 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-06 05:27:00
How do I see all posts on a subject.  Just want to read, no specific question yet.

Combining egg tempera and oil glazes.

Question asked 2016-11-05 13:08:33 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-05 21:24:00
Egg Tempera Paint Mediums
I'd be very grateful for some advice about egg tempera combined with oil glazes.
I've read Koo Schadler's article on her website but I'm still wondering:
1. Is it absolutely necessary to isolate the egg tempera with shellac?
2. How long would you need to leave the ET to dry?
3. What would be the best medium to use in the oil glazes? I bought some Rublev oil paint but I can't find any oleogel here in the uk.
(I'm an experienced egg tempera painter).

Best method for cleaning dust and detritus from oil painting

Question asked 2016-11-04 11:15:37 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-04 11:24:00
Storage Studio Tools and Tips Varnishes
Oftentimes when my paintings are drying, they collect dust, hairs and schmutz that I need to remove before varnishing. If the paint layer is cured sufficiently, I use a foam brush and lightly brush over the painting to remove it. I wonder if a tack cloth can be used, or will that leave residue on the paint surface?

What is the recommended way of removing inevitable dust from an oil painting?

working with azurite

Question asked 2016-11-03 10:33:55 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-03 13:03:00
Egg Tempera Pigments
I have recently found a good source of more or less affordable azurite.  The pigment is beautiful, easy to work with in egg tempera.  Its shade is also easily controllable by grinding more (it gets paler as you grind it).  However, one issue that I found bothers me a bit.  When I finish the work, it is a beautiful tone of blue with a hint of green in it.  However, after a few months, it gradually turns more and more green.  Not entirely objectionable, and in fact the color harmonizes better overtime.  But is there a way to stop it from greening?  I read somewhere that many egg tempera works and frescoes were done in azurite but it didn't green.

a tinting varnish for metal leaf

Question asked 2016-11-03 11:02:36 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-03 13:03:00
Dyes Gilding Varnishes
In some Russian icons of the 18-19 cc, there was a method of "gilding" without gold leaf.  Metal leaf (often silver leaf) was used, but then coated with a yellow-tinted varnish.   It didn't look like gold but had its own distinct charm and softness.
Recently, I tried to replicate this technique by using aluminum leaf; however, I cannot find a suitable colorant for the varnish.  Kremer Pigments suggested something (organic pigments) but these turned out to be not soluble in a solvent-based varnish.  Even though the pigments were transparent, the varnish turned cloudy, just like you'd add a mineral pigment such as yellow ocher into any liquid. 
Is there a type of dye that one can be completely dissolved in mineral spirits (i.e., solvent-based polyurethane varnish)?

Shellac and pigments

Question asked 2016-11-03 07:46:23 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-03 08:09:32
Ink Other Varnishes
I have been asked to create an art work that will be between layers of shellac, on a guitar.  The client says the last time this was done, the artist used sharpies.  I'm concerned about how that will look years from now.  It needs to be very flat, so pigment pens might be the only way.

Mold growth on paper

Question asked 2016-11-02 14:05:28 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-02 15:26:00
Art Conservation Topics Environment
Asking for a friend: She had some colored lithographs stored in a flat file that had some water damage. After laying out to dry, there's been some small mold growth on the edges/border. Is there a way that I can treat the area to prevent/minimize further growth or should I store them differently? Or take them to a professional?

- Craig Lee

combining oil and acrylic

Question asked 2016-11-02 12:53:35 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-02 13:35:00
Acrylic Drying Oils
Can matte acrylics can be used (ie thinned with matte medium) under an oil paint film, ie as an underpainting/ebauche layer?

Oil Paint category

Question asked 2016-11-01 15:34:30 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-01 20:45:00
Under what heading would oil paint questions be under?
Steven Lewis

Damariscotta varnish

Question asked 2016-10-29 05:26:54 ... Most recent comment 2016-11-01 14:45:00
Varnishes
How do I remove Damar varnish, oil panting on linen, 28 years ild

Oil on canvas with gilded areas - best practices

Question asked 2016-10-31 06:10:06 ... Most recent comment 2016-10-31 09:10:00
Flexible Supports Gilding Other Sizes and Adhesives
I am about to start oil painting on canvas with gilded areas (gold leaves) and would be thankful for any advice when it comes to this, especially when it comes to the longevity of the gilded areas. I had previous experience in gilding hard surfaces (traditional Byzantine orthodox icons), but never worked with gold on canvas.
To be more precise, let's start with size/mixtion. I am using Lefranc & Bourgeois Charbonnel Mixtion (3 hours). Any thoughts on the quality of that size? Will it become hard and brittle over time and cause the gold to crack due to the canvas' flexibility? I've got advice to apply one layer of size, let it dry out and then apply second layer of it before I put on the gold leaves - is this smart thing to do? Supposedly, this should somehow increase the flexibility of the surface...
Additionally, I know gold is chemically mostly inert material, but are there any known problems related to the chemical reactions between the gold and oil paints? Should I additionally protect the gilded surface, or the varnish that I'm using is enough (Lefranc matt picture varnish for oils/acrylic)?
Any tips&tricks related to best practices of gilding the canvas are most welcomed. Thanks!

Varnishing Acrylic Paintings

Question asked 2016-10-29 08:45:07 ... Most recent comment 2016-10-29 08:57:00
Acrylic Art Conservation Topics Varnishes
I have heard many variations on this and was wondering if there was any sort of agreement on the varnishing of acrylic paintings.

Rust on paper

Question asked 2016-10-29 07:59:25 ... Most recent comment 2016-10-29 08:09:00
Art Conservation Topics Drawing Materials
Can you please tell me how to remove small spots of rust left on a drawing that was held by metal bulldog clips?  I'd like to not have to trim the paper.  If left , what would be some adverse results? Thank you.

How do I deal with "sinking-in"?

Question asked 2016-10-18 21:55:31 ... Most recent comment 2016-10-20 14:12:00
Drying Oils Other Varnishes
There are several areas on my painting that appear matte and uneven compared to the rest of the composition. I am not quite done painting so am unsure how to proceed...

Toxicity of Lead White?

Question asked 2016-10-18 11:03:07 ... Most recent comment 2016-10-18 11:04:00
Health and Safety Pigments
I have been hearing a lot about the toxicity of lead white paint.....but some of my colleagues swear by it. I am sort of torn at the moment...
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Secondary Search Results: Answers & Comments

Next, we are showing you any answer or comment that matches your search term, regardless of filters.
That is a goodly number of very pithy questions. To begin, the concern with oxidation implies that the painting is in oil and anything that limits the exposure of the paint surface to oxidants will slow the oxidation, but that may result in a more stable film, ultimately. There is likely to be an issue with effluent from the oxidation reaction accumulating of the glazing sheet and that will require periodic cleaning. If the fabric is to be adhered, then gloss acrylic is a good option, as are aluminum/plastic panels, and the acrylic adhesive will be hygroscopic, but less so than the fabric, itself. The aluminum will block moisture from the verso and the fabric is not likely to cause the panel to warp, as an adhered sheet of four ply board can do. It makes sense to space the glazing sheet by a quarter of an inch, using radiation cross linked polyethylene foam (Volara) that is attached to the glazing sheet and while acrylic sheet (PMMA) will allow water vapor to pass through it, it should not affect the painting, but if the seal at the spacer layer is very tight, there may be some warping of the glazing. Wood based boards should be avoided, since they can become infested, with pests, in the long run. Since you are the artist, I have been thinking that you would be making the panels and then painting them. Hugh Phibbs

Sarah Sands posted a very useful article on this for Golden as part of their Just Paint series:https://justpaint.org/how-much-water-can-you-safely-add-to-acrylic-paint/​​

​I think for greater precision of an answer you should email Golden acrylics on this subject. They'd better know the limits and may even suggest a type of acrylic range best suited to this task. I've found them very responsive myself.

Marc.​

​thank you, this is a good advice actually.

So maybe what about: acid free paper, primed with Pva, then acrylic paint diluted with water as a medium and varnish on top? Would it be different from diluted oil paint? For sure it should dry faster...​

​​My 2 cents is that these works, if on bare card or paper, will become quite fragile with time. Also they'll be highly underbound in nature. If you varnish, it will then become a permanent part of the work, impossible to later remove.

I'd start with trying acrylics first.

Marc.​

​Some years ago I asked Winsor and newton whether Their indian ink was ok on acrylic primed canvas and under oil paint. They said that it was as long as the ink areas were merely narrow lines and not large zones of fill in or where the ink lines were approahing 50% surface coverage or more. As it turned out for myself, I found after a few paintings that the indian ink wasn't that much easier and perhaps I wanted grey or umber lines instead anyway.

Marc.​

The titanium alkyd white (no zinc included) wasn't too brittle the alkyd lead white was. My mild concern was compatability of a paint completely bound in another vehicle other than a standard drying oil. Not that I'm aware of this being a problem with alkyd paints.

Thank you for relaying the responses from Golden.

I myself, apart from mixing a little lead white with my titanium white, give no further thought to permanence once I start painting. Choices are made before I start. Then I put them out of my head. Making the image becomes all that counts.

Marc.​​​

​Mentioning the brittleness of titanium alkyd paint is worthwhile as it suggests that there is a limit to how much alkyd can be added to titanium pigment to create a paint before it becomes a problem.  My use of alkyd falls far short of this and is used by me on advice by a paint/organic chemist from the U of NY Rochester a few years ago on Amien, and I just wanted you to clarify your statement,  Thank you.

According to her, as I recall, alkyd medium passes the flexibility test  better than any other oil based medium (a sheet coated with titanium is run around a rod of a progressively smaller diameter to see how much bend the paint layer can withstand before failing.)

I'm hoping to hear further from someone with a materials background who can add another point of view to the results discussed in the Sept 2023 issue of "Just Paint."  I contacted Golden (WB oil colors) and received this helpful reply from Cathy Jennings, materials specialist:

 Thank you for your questions.  We will take them individually below:

  1. Would an alkyd medium impart enough strength, hardness and flexibility to titanium white to replace that of lead white?
    1. We believe that using an alkyd medium with Titanium White oil paint is likely to increase the strength, hardness, and flexibility of the Titanium White paint film.   How much the medium does so will depend in part on the amount of alkyd being used, the thickness of application, and the individual characteristics of that particular medium.  We have not done this type of comparison test with alkyd mediums.      
  2. Could lead white be used in bottom paint layers of a landscape if covered with subsequent layers using titanium white? Would the titanium be opaque enough to protect the lead white and pigments below? 
    1. It might well be beneficial to use Lead White underneath Titanium White.  However, we have not done lightfast testing of lead white mixes underneath Titanium White layers.  If the lead white blend is one without great lightfastness, and the Titanium White is applied in a thin enough layer that the lead underpainting is at all influencing what is seen, then it is likely that the underlayer will still fade with exposure over time. ​

It seems that much is unkown and I may just have to stop going down the time consuming "permanence rabbit hole" and just use the most lightfast pigments that have been measured alone and hope for the best, minimizing organic pigments if possible and using titanium white on the upper layers.

The best advice that I've ever heard on this subject came from one of the senior conservators at the Upper Midwest Conservation Lab in Minneapolis, 25 years ago, who said that we should use the most permanent materials that we like to use.   I should stop all of this fretting and take her advice.  I've long since taken the best advice available.   Thank you.

​One of my traits, perhaps a fault, is too segue needlessly.  The alkyd lead white was a basic lead carbonate mulled in​ alkyd and made by Winsor & Newton not lead white oil paint with alkyd medium added. Winsor and Newton no longer make it so why did I bring it up?

Again a pigment mulled in alkyd. This was also probably made by Winsor & Newton. Supposedly it's safe to mix the two types of paint but how much testing have they actually done on it? Probably safer to just keep mixing alkyd medium into oil paint.

In my own practice I've found that stand oil is the most flexible, but then I've only tested paint and oil films that are a few years old.​

Marc.​​

​Thank you, Marc.

1. When you say "alkyd lead white" do you mean lead carbonate mulled into an alkyd paint or lead carbonate paint with some alkyd used as a medium by the painter?   The former brings much more alkyd to the paint layer than the latter .  

2. "Titanium white bound soley in alkyd"...  an alkyd paint or an oil paint with some alkyd used as a medium by the painter?

I've never used alkyd paints, if that is what you are referring to, but have been using some alkyd only as a medium in my oil paints as the least yellowing, hardest and most flexible medium (recommended by one of the paint experts on AMIEN a decade of more ago.)



These are questions subject to a degree of personal relativity of what's considered most worth while. As I type this I recall some released study on paint films done by I believe the Smithsonian. Titanium white bound solely in alkyd performed quite well and better than titanium in linseed. Linseed Lead white performed very well in the general goldielock zone, but alkyd lead white (like zinc white) aged to a too hard slighly brittle state.

Now perhaps alkyd mediums added to titanium oil tints on a panel are all that's needed, but how much alkyd? Would alkyd titanium white be better? Regarding lead white, is ASTM II really that bad considering that ASTM II ​pigments show their most noticeable fading in tints where they drop well below ASTM II to III or even IV?​​

Unfortunately when it comes to being exact I'm afraid here that I simply don't know.

Fellow painter, Marc.

Hi there! I'd like to offer some insights regarding concerns about potential sunlight damage to artworks in a solo show space. The 5% transmission tint on the windows, as mentioned, is designed to block out 99% of UV light rays, which sounds promising. However, given the continuous exposure to sunlight throughout the day, it's understandable to remain cautious.

To mitigate risks, using varnish with UV protection and framing with UV protection glass are excellent strategies. When it comes to choosing mediums for your artworks, charcoal drawings might indeed be a safer option due to their resilience against potential fading or discoloration from sunlight exposure.

While oil, watercolor, and pastel artworks could still be viable choices, extra precautions such as using lightfast pigments and considering framing options with UV protection should be taken into account. It's worth noting that your commitment to using professional-quality materials and ensuring lightfastness in your pigments is commendable and will likely help safeguard your artworks.

Considering your concerns and the specific conditions of the exhibition space, it might be prudent to discuss these matters further with the gallery or seek advice from a professional conservator. Ultimately, ensuring the longevity and preservation of your artworks is paramount.

On a side note, mentioning international gallerist Pearl Lam might be beneficial​, as her expertise in the art world could offer valuable insights or perspectives on handling such situations. Best of luck with your exhibition!​

​​Thank you, Marc. I also had concerns about the saw fraying or snagging threads. I've decided to prep each cut panel individually. I am learning there aren't many shortcuts with egg tempera.


Cheers!  

I think this has been done to a limited degree commercially, but I'd be unlikely to try it myself because edges might chip or fray.

Marc.​​

​​Thank you so much for your detailed answer. I will also pass along the answer. It is so appreciated! 

There maybe a fractional difference to drying speed but it should be very minimal indeed. If the paint requires this semi breathing reverse side effect to "dry well." then the oil paint film must be so thick as to be at the limits of stability.  (Say half inch or more films of either titanium white, cadmium or synthetic organics.) Plenty of oil paintings use non permeable supports with no risk at all.

Marc.​​

​If you haven't already done so I'd recommend you contact him directly through his web site. I've usually found him prompt with his replies.

Marc.​

Hello, 

Well the quest​ion about additives came up when a friend of mine had problems with his gesso preparation. More specifically cracking, bubbles/blisters after drying and board bending. He carried out some experiments involving a control with 10%  animal glue, addition of oil and honey. His boards cracked with the control and the oil addition but were fine with the honey addition. In my case I am afraid of honey since it can lead to mold. I have seen icons covered in mold which is a nightmare. ​ I think a degree of plasticity would help since boards made of tree wood tend to "move" when losing or gaining moisture so it slows down the cracking, that will eventually take place. What are your thoughts on glycerin addition?  Because he was thinking about adding that as well? 

Your perceptions regarding the differences between student grade and artist grade oil and acrylic paints are not entirely unfounded, but they may not encompass the full picture.

In general, student grade oil paints often contain more fillers and extenders compared to artist grade paints. These fillers can include materials like aluminum stearates, which are added to bulk up the paint and reduce production costs. While student grade paints can be more economical, they may have lower pigment concentrations and may not have the same lightfastness or archival quality as artist grade paints.

On the other hand, student grade acrylic paints typically do not pose the same concerns as their oil counterparts. Acrylic paints inherently have a more stable and durable film when dry, and the differences between student and artist grade acrylics are often related to pigment load, color intensity, and consistency rather than long-term stability.

That said, it's important to note that not all student grade paints are created equal, and some manufacturers may prioritize quality and durability even in their student grade lines. Additionally, individual formulations can vary, so it's always a good idea to check product specifications and reviews before making a purchase.

As for considering the insights of gallerist Pearl Lam​, her expertise in the art world may shed light on the importance of materials and craftsmanship in artistic practice. While student grade paints can be suitable for certain purposes, artists may find that investing in higher quality materials like artist grade paints ultimately pays off in terms of color intensity, longevity, and overall aesthetic quality.

Ultimately, the choice between student and artist grade paints depends on factors such as budget, intended use, and personal preferences. By understanding the differences between the two grades and considering the long-term implications for their work, artists can make informed decisions about the materials they use in their artistic practice.

Your proposed method of adhering to the fat over lean rule while eliminating the use of solvents is indeed an interesting approach to traditional oil painting techniques. By utilizing an absorbent acrylic gesso ground and applying a thin layer of linseed oil before each subsequent layer of paint, you are creating a solvent-free alternative to building up layers in your painting process.

This method offers several potential benefits, such as reducing exposure to harmful solvents and creating a more environmentally friendly painting practice. Additionally, the absorbent gesso layer can help in creating a gradual buildup of oil content in each layer, adhering to the fat over lean principle.

However, there are a few considerations to keep in mind. Firstly, the absorbency of the gesso layer may vary depending on the brand and formulation, so it's important to test and adjust accordingly. Additionally, the drying time of linseed oil can be relatively slow, so patience and proper ventilation are key.

As for incorporating the insights of gallerist Pearl Lam, she may appreciate the innovative and conscious approach to traditional painting techniques. Pearl Lam's expertise in the art world​ could shed light on how artists' experimentation with materials and methods can contribute to the evolution of artistic practices.

Overall, your method offers a promising alternative for artists looking to adhere to traditional principles while exploring solvent-free options. With careful experimentation and attention to materials, it could lead to unique and compelling results in your artistic practice.

Hi Koo.

​Thank you so much for this!  I appreciate the instructions and additional information.


Roger-


​hi here, for those who had test, how fast does this evaporate? it said slow, but how slow will this compare to say water? and does this leaves residue behind or fully evaporate? why it may only mix small amount, which means we cannot use it to create a wash effect for initial layer?​

​That would seem logical.

Marc.​

Hi Marc,

​stand oil is good for top layer glazing but because it is heavy oil molecue that it doesnt sink into below layers, so if the ground is "thirsty" that sucks oil from already lean lower layer, and the upper layer used is stand oil that doesnt want to give oil to lower layers, then the lower layer will remain in high PVC, which result a weaker film. i think it maybe beneficial to use linseed oil so that is can sink to lower layers.  how do you think about this? 

​Well I only use stand oil, and with a palatte knife I place an amount on my glass plate set upon a short table. From this thick free standing pool with another palette knife I take a portion to mix with paint which are already mixed to the correct colours. The momentary free standing nature of stand oil makes it easy to judge quanity. But many other mediums will be similar in this feature. 

You might do well to ask this question on other painting forums. Other artists will have solutions to this problem with their different painting styles.

Marc.​

​Hi Marc, quick question, i get your idea but i found in practice how you will add right amount oil to paint? i think it is very hard to control from adding smaller to larger quantity. ​​

The aforementioned "traditionally" is a common modern practice but not universal. 

Nothing wrong with painting solvent free. A good quality acrylic gesso is good but you don;t want it to be too "thirsty" Straight oil paint from tube is good for first layer, or maybe even second, depending on the paint.

Brushing on thin layers of linseed oil is generally not recommended. Just mix the linseed or other approved fatty oil mediums into the paint with MILD incrementalism for each layer. (never ever exceding medium to paint.​) Otherwise with these linseed layers you risk lean layer, fat layer, lean layer, fat layer, lean layer etc. On top of this, any unmixed linseed layer can yellow quite badly.

Marc.​​

Thank you Koo,

Your in depth description is encouraging that with some experimentation I may still be able to to work well with small particle pigments. I appreciate the encouragment to try the dispersions: I had an old kind of gloopy Phtalo Blue dispersion from Kremer that I was unhappy with and because of that I never tried dispersions from Guerra etc.

And good call on continuing to properly temper each layer. I'll take this all in and report back if I discover anything of note!

cheers

eli

​I've seen two samples of A​ureolin oil paint turn grey​, but only as tints with white. One was by someone else with a sample left outside under glass and another by myself about thirty years ago under shelter but outside and exposed to half day sunlight for a full year. My full strength sample displayed only the slightest of changes, if still visible.  The cobalt yellow tint I considered a complete failure so have never used it since.

I imagine under museum conditions one would never live long enough to see any change though.

Marc.​​​​

Just a note to report back on my panel project. I have had success using true gesso on cradled hardboard by srcewing the cradle down to a large piece of plywood for the duration of gesso application and drying time. This holds the piece in place making it unble to cup when the gesso surface shrinks. I am not sure where all the tension goes, but the panels are flat and there are no cracks.

I had similar success with this method using 3/4" Baltic Birch. I screwed into the back to hold it in place for gessoing the face, and used clamps to hold it when gessoing the backside. I did a side by side comparision on 90cm x 90cm 3/4" plywood, one held down in this fasion and one not. The peice that was not held down in anyway, despite gessoing both sides, warped substantially (a straightedges across the plane registers a 7mm gap in the worst spot.) The clamped piece had a small warp about 1mm at one end that could have been in the piece of wood to begin with.

Just wanted to let you know. Thanks for your help, Koo especially. Cheers! - eli

Hi Koo.

​Thank you for this information - I appreciate the insights.  I scaled down the recipe and I noticed that it did seem to dry out in the double boiler quickly.  

Unfortunately, when I gessoed my two panels yesterday, I rushed through it.  I noticed that the previous layer would pull off when I tried to lay down the new layer.  

After giving it thought, and doing research, I realized that I didn't give enough time for the previous layer to dry.  

The lighting in my kitchen wasn't very good either, so I couldn't determine when the gesso layer dried to a matte finish. 

Experience is a great teacher!  This was my second attempt at applying gesso.​

Thank you.

Roger-

​​Thank you Marc. I did check with the manufacturer of Sinttra, (3A Composites) and there are no plasticizers in it.. So I'm guessing it's good to go!  If anyone has any experience  using Sintra as an oil painting substrate I'd  love know more.   Thanks  again Marc

Hi Koo,

Thank you so much for your response!  I was drawn to egg tempera because of its technical side and its surprising affordability.   Since I am new to it, I haven't quite figured out how to scale the gesso recipe for the 2 smaller panels I have now.  I appreciate your input and will post the result of my little experiment.


Roger- 


Tea tree oil, clove oil, and rosemary have also been suggested. One study of their effectiveness in lettuce showed that the first two were effective and rosemary wasn't.​ Watercolors, of course, aren't lettuce. However, based on that study (and the popularity of clove oil in watercolors formulations), I would lean toward clove and tea tree oil and skip the rosemary.


M Graham also stated that honey inhibits biofilm (mold, fungus) growth. For honey, it would be best to be able to be certain that what they're buying is 100% honey. Adulteration of the world's honey supply is a big problem. Honey might also have issues with some uncommon pigments (like copper greens and blues) due to its pH, which I recall is somewhat acidic.


Another possibility is sodium benzoate. It might be better than plant oils because of better solubility with water.

— SRS

Also... the new YInMN blue may be a contender for displacing ultramarine for the highest longevity needs. However, yttrium and indium are both low-abundance elements so making them into paint on a large scale is questionable in terms of sustainability.

— SRS​

For accuracy, I should have also mentioned PR 251 and PR 168 when discussing high-quality bright red pigments. Cadmium and pyrrole are the most common/popular, due to their high durability and intensity. However, PR 168 can be found in a more transparent form than a pyrrole, which can be useful. According to Handprint's tests, PR 251 (which is somewhat chemically related to PR 168​, being an anthraquinone derivative) is also the equal to pyrrole reds in terms of longevity and saturation. Cadmium red will beat all of the organic reds in opacity and durability (indoors), though.

— SRS

​update​

​@I can't speak for the Sintra itself but PVC is often problematic because added plasticizers can migrate out of the surface at higher room temperatures. If you wish to use a PVC panel I'd recommend you find out if it's unplasticizered first.

Marc.​

The briefest way to look at this is:

Are you an organic chemist?

If the answer is "no" then ask yourself: Why isn't this product on the market right now, being sold to artists?

The answer is because it has serious deficiencies. It is highly unlikely something as well-know as polyurethane has simply been ignored by paint chemists.

That said, there are some odd paint formulations used for conservation retouching. They have pros and cons but don't appear to translate well to general painting.

— SRS

Naphthol, not napthol.

Also, there are some other bright red pigments that are okay, such as PR 168 and PR 251. They're not nearly as common in the higher-tier lines as pyrrole and cadmium.

— SRS

If one cares about the longevity of one's work, it's important know the pigment codes and to check them.

Some "student" brands don't list them. Any paint, in my opinion, that has no pigment code, is highly suspicious, in terms of its longevity. There are a few exceptions, such as a quinacridone from a highly reputable brand. In rare circumstances it is possible to know that a paint will be lightfast enough for serious artwork even without a pigment code. That is when the specific pigment family is stated, such as quinacridone.

​Even very expensive brands can have pigments that aren't lightfast. For instance, top-tier watercolor brands have often have cobalt yellow (aureolin, PY 40) in their lines. That turns grey. Genuine alizarin crimson and rose madder are also trouble.

Typically, "student" brands will have borderline pigments in the line. These will be in multi-pigment mixtures and sometimes by themselves. Other colors in the line may have fully lightfast pigments. "Student" brands typically have more of the non-lightfast pigments than higher-tier brands. For example, a high-quality brand's bright red would be a cadmium or pyrrole. Many high-quality brands offer both. A low-tier brand would use not only a napthol but one of the less-lightfast napthols, like PR 9. From there, the pigment concentration will likely be lower.

— SRS

Isn't acrylic porous, even glossy acrylic medium that is high in acrylic solids?

I assume that it's important to have something to combat that porosity if trying to seal something.​

I am not an expert but my guess is that unprimed canvas should be primed if using acrylic or oil. Acrylic is highly alkaline and oil is acidic.​ Both of these non-neutral pH materials might degrade unprimed canvas over time.

— SRS

"Organic pigments typically require more oil so it's not just a question of which oil is used to grind a particular pigment. Some pigments require more oil than others."

Additionally, the fineness of a pigment's particles can make a difference in terms of how much oil is required. A dramatic example is barium sulfate. The natural form (baryte) requires very little oil. By contrast, the synthetic form (blanc fixe) requires quite a lot more.

Therefore, the more synthetic barium sulfate is added to a tube of paint — the more the oil displaces pigment in the pigment-to-oil ratio ... if the colored pigment is one that has low oil absorption. Blanc fixe has a lower oil requirement than some pigments (i.e. organics).

What would be ideal would be a baryte that has no grey cast. Then one would gain the transparentizing filler functionality whilst reducing the saturation loss from the grey cast and the yellowing of the oil which is made more apparent due to the reduction in colored pigment and the transparency of the baryte. I don't know if synthetic barium sulfate can be produced that mimics the low oil absorption of the natural variety. As far as I know, that kind isn't produced industrially. The reason people typically use the synthetic in oil paints is because of its whiter color, I assume. How much that benefit is lost due to its higher oil requirement, though, I can't say.

— SRS

I am not an expert. However, there are a few observations I have that may be helpful:

1) Different tiers of paint quality don't necessarily mean a different texture to the paint (short/stiff). My understanding is that a certain amount of alumina stearate (the most common stabilizing additive for tubed oil paint) creates a short/stiff texture and adding more doesn't dramatically change the texture but it does enable more oil to be added (rather than pigment). Therefore, lower-priced brands can reach a lower price point by having more oil and less pigment by binding that oil with stabilizer (or with filler like blanc fixe which can be a cheap transparent "pigment").

2) Organic pigments typically require more oil so it's not just a question of which oil is used to grind a particular pigment. Some pigments require more oil than others. One could find a tube of paint that is ground in safflower oil that has a higher pigment-to-oil ratio than one ground in linseed. The linseed oil paint might have an organic pigment and more filler/stabilizer.

3) Some pigments are more unstable than others, when it comes to cracking. Zinc oxide ground in linseed is going to be more problematic than lead white (PW 1) ground in safflower. Unfortunately, zinc white is sometimes added to paint without it being on the label, as a brightener and to combat yellowing.

4) Linseed's "toughness" and "strength" come from it shrinking less as it cures and also crosslinking more.

5) Some brands that use semi-drying oils add a lot of siccative. This means a paint ground in sunflower oil could dry faster than the same pigment ground in linseed.​

6) Some additives might improve the stability of the lower layers (such as lead white added to a particular colored pigment — as lead white releases lead ions that improve the stability of paint films) regardless of what oil the paint is ground in. Lead white additive won't prevent the problems caused by a higher-shrinkage oil but it could reduce their severity.

— SRS

Additionally, another thing that some budget and mid-tier brands may do is use sunflower oil, which shrinks the most of the common semi-drying oils during the curing process. This could cause a brittleness issue with the paint film. Linseed is the only common oil used in oil painting that doesn't shrink much. The others shrink quite a lot more, with sunflower shrinking more than poppy which shrinks more than walnut which shrinks more than safflower. None of those "alternative" oils are close to linseed's volume stability.

Companies like Grumbacher refer to oils like sunflower as providing a "soft" paint film, which I consider misleading. Many describe this as a "weak" paint film which is also misleading. What it actually is is a brittle paint film. There is nothing "soft" about it. 

To Grumbacher's credit, it is one of the few oil paint brands that uses linseed oil throughout its line. However, its whites all have zinc oxide added and it doesn't have a proper cobalt violet light (which is a rare exception pigment in that it shouldn't be ground in linseed due to the yellowing impacting the color too much).

— SRS​

I would be the most concerned about the longevity of the support. However, stabilizers might migrate to the surface over time, creating a haze. Some brands add wax which also may present a solubility issue.

On the flip side, one company's testing claims to show that not adding driers and/or wax to pure titanium dioxide oil paint causes more problems with that pigment's paint film. Just oil + pigment isn't enough, according to what they claim they found. One of the additives that greatly improved the paint film was wax. However, a conservator here warns that wax may cause solubility problems which can impact varnishing and conservation treatments.

Most tubed oil paint has alumina stearate added as a stabilizer. Some brands use additional stabilizers and modifiers, such as hydrogenated castor oil, wax, alumina hydrate, blanc fixe, calcium carbonate, zinc oxide, et cetera. Many mid-tier brands add quite a bit of siccative. Siccatives have a varied reputation that may depend upon how much is used and which ones.​

The only way to know how the paint will perform in advance is to remove all unknowns. That means one can't purchase brands that use trade secrecy unless one wants to pay a chemistry lab for full evaluation — and buy enough of the product shortly after than to ensure that batch and reformulation changes don't change the product significantly.

Brands that give out somewhat detailed technical information at least seem more trustworthy than those that refuse to provide even pigment codes. However, it is possible to provide some information whilst still keeping important information under trade secrecy.

— SRS

Someone in this thread posted that metal expands and shrinks more than wood products. That is the opposite of the chart I saw. It showed that aluminum is more stable than any kind of wood except perhaps the finest quality hardwood that has been cut the correct (and rare) way. That wood requires old growth hardwood trees so it's typically not environmentally friendly. It's also heavy and expensive.

I don't recommend anything other than aluminum based on everything I have read. I especially would avoid plywood and other processed wood products.

— SRS​

Also, I should have added that aluminum has less shrinkage and expansion than wood so I would choose it over any other support.

— SRS​

"For reaching the hundred years milestone, again it's less about materials than it is about process."

I don't agree with this.​ My question is:

If damar makes for an inferior paint film, why is it there at all? Are the benefits more important than the drawbacks?

Materials and process are two different things. Both are important for art longevity.

Lead ions in the ground apparently migrate into the paint film, which enhances its stability. However, lead white (PW 1) ground with zinc oxide white (PW 4) is even more brittle than when zinc white is ground with titanium white (PW 6).

​Therefore, a ground with lead white in it may be better for long-term stability or worse, depending upon what is mixed with the lead. Some alkyds have shown high brittleness but others may not have this defect. I presume, for instance, that the paint line "Archival Oils" is made with an alkyd, although I don't believe the company has disclosed what it uses. One amateur's test found that it, unlike the titanium-zinc white blends, did not crack nor delaminate. Similarly, two other brands of white that did not contain zinc oxide did not crack, nor did they delaminate. One was Lukas' "Opaque White" that is made with PW 5 (lithopone) and possibly some wax. The other I can't recall but I think it was also a lithopone white.

A lead + titanium ground, I would imagine, would offer both the superior brightness and opacity of titanium, with lead ions to enhance the paint film's stability. I really can't advise about the addition of alkyd.

Calcium carbonate and barium sulfate have also been components (additivies) of lead grounds that appear to be stable. However, I am not a professional conservator/researcher so take my words with due caution.

My advice is to avoid zinc white and grounds using animal glue. My understanding is that animal glue (rabbit skin, sturgeon, et cetera) has inferior properties when compared with some modern synthetic alternatives.

— SRS

Also, the sRGB color gamut, which is the standard for mainstream computer monitors and other devices, has a tiny color range. It is much much smaller than what the human eye can perceive. The gamut of oil painting is rather small, however, particularly if one doesn't utilize fugitive rhodamine dye (sold far too often to watercolorists these days, thanks to "opera"). Additionally, in terms of that, most artists are unfamiliar with cobalt violet light — the lightfast alternative to rhodamine which doesn't have its level of saturation. That further shrinks the red-violet portion of the painting gamut. The yellowing of oil and its yellow tone (including medium addition) also shrinks it.

Despite the smallness of the painting gamut, getting an accurate on-screen representation of a particular color is full of problems. The lighting or scanning needs to be fully accurate. The entire chain (photography/scanning, calibration after photography/scanning, and monitor display) have to be accurate. Sometimes images on the web include embedded color profiles which can help some. However, a consumer monitor can have all sorts of adjustment problem and some don't even display the tint sRGB gamut fully.

In terms of smallness, too... the CMYK offset printing press gamut is smaller than sRGB but sRGB can't hold that full gamut. Parts of it are outside of sRGB's range.

In short, computer monitors are a rather poor way to evaluate paints. The best thing is to have swatches of the actual paint that has been dried in bright indoor light (if oils) or watercolor samples to paint out if using watercolors.

People can easily boost the saturation of anything they have photgraphed and scanned. Ebay is full of flower seed adds that misrepresent flowers (and even foliage) as being practically fluorescent.

— SRS

Doak has never been willing to use pigment codes for his paint. Although there is apparently quite a bit of wiggle room in their use (such as not needing to label a certain quantity of PW 4, despite its deleterious effect on oil paint films), their use is usually seen as a sign that the producer is aiming for some degree of transparency.​

My advice is that if you plan to purchase tubed ultramarine that is labeled as being made from lapis lazuli rather than from synthetic ultramarine (with or without phthalo or some other pigment) — plan to invest in a chemical lab to test the product. Once you have seen proof that it is what it says it is, then you can order more from that seller.

— SRS

My apologies to Brian Baade, as I have realized I mixed up the two Brians. Brian Firth is a person who posted in a different forum.

I believe it was Dr. Baade who spoke to solubility issues in this forum caused by the use of wax in oil painting.

In essence, while Georgian oil paints are positioned as student grade, they can yield impressive results when handled and cared for meticulously. When used conscientiously with good practices, they have the potential to produce paintings that endure over time.

It's also advisable to conduct personal tests, creating a small-scale sample using the specific colors and techniques you intend to use, and observe their behavior over time to gauge their permanence and performance according to your expectations.

Ultimately, the outcome of any painting, regardless of the paint grade, hinges on the artist's skill, technique, and the care taken in the creation process.​

Artist skill and materials quality are often not interchangeable. For example, a particular paint brand sold tubes of vermilion paint that resulted in opaque white patches forming on the dried paint film. This happened with plain red areas on multiple paintings. The artist's skill didn't affect the outcome, nor could the artist anticipate this result and adjust for it in terms of the painting technique and similar matters (such as support choice).

Instead, it was a defective product.

With current oil painting products, users cannot perform truly long-term testing, as those tests take longer than the artists will live. Some problems, such as ultramarine sickness, can take longer than the artist's lifetime to manifest. Others may take several decades. If an artist is 60 and the testing requires fifty years to be fully adequate, the artist would be 110 by the time he/she would know the product meets or does not meet his/her needs.

Given trade secrecy, artists have no way to really know how their products will perform, unless they can use products that have nothing left to chance. An example of that is verified dry pigment (verified in terms of its actual content, in totality) verified oil, verified stabilizers (if any), et cetera, hand-made.

— SRS

Hi,

I was referring to the oil as the stabilizer. As you wrote, tempera can't be tubed with adequate stability without it.

Sorry for any confusion.

— SRS

I mistyped the pigment code. It should have been PR 251 not PR 151.​

Organic pigments have much finer particles, typically. A few inorganic pigments, like zinc oxide (PW 4) also are produced with small particles. Zinc oxide is even sold in nanoparticle​ form for sunscreens.

Because organic pigments have much finer particles they need more oil when made into oil paint. This comes with the drawbacks of the additional oil, especially for underpainting when using the indirect painting method (fat over lean). However, they can also be better for glazing, due to higher transparency than many inorganic pigments (although some organics are not so transparent).

Pigment codes for organic pigments can be misleading, too. Some forms of the same "PY 83" are opaque and some are transparent.

Some organic pigments are produced to have larger particle sizes, such as PR 151, used in the high-end automotive industry. The larger particle sizes generally (not always — it depends on the specific organic pigment molecule) have better lightfastness. However, a large-particle pigment (let's say pigment A) can have lower lightfastness than an entirely different organic pigment  (let's say pigment B), so particle size differences only point toward lightfastness.

Overall, organic pigments are less lightfast than the most lightfast inorganic pigments. However, some organic pigments are much more lightfast than some inorganic pigments that have been used in art.

Some pigments are described as losing color saturation and becoming lighter as they are more finely ground. Copper greens that don't contain arsenic (such as malachite) are an example. Finer inorganic pigment grinds/particles can also require more oil, such as with synthetic barium sulfate (aka blanc fixe) versus natural barium sulfate (aka baryte).

Some artists argue that watercolorists are better-served by fine grinds, although highly granulating saturated pigments (such as coarse ultramarine) have become trendy in watercolor painting. 

Very coarse pigments can be unpleasant to paint with, like painting with sand. I don't know for certain but I imagine that they are also harder for a binder to hold, as there is less surface area for the binder to bind.

Finer grinds tend to have more tinting strength.

In oils, the ideal base pigment is extremely opaque, extremely saturated, finely ground, highly tinting, totally lightfast (inorganic), totally chemically/molecularly stable, very lean (not needing much oil for the grind), non-stringy, donates the right metal ions to stabilize a paint film, and free of rare expensive elements such as yttrium and indium. The ideal glazing pigment is transparent and needs more oil for its full saturation (CPVC — critical pigment volume concentration) but has most of those other qualities.

— SRS

Hi,

I only know what little I have read about the pigment. The ultramarine sickness, from one conservation article I recall reading, was about some inherent instability in the molecule — not directly related to free sulfur impurity in the pigment mix. The instability causes, over the very long term, the destabilization of the molecule which results in the loss of color saturation (a grey color). I think light exposure (radiation) accelerates the process but am not certain. I recall the article saying that finer grinds may be more susceptible. I don't know if free sulfur exacerbates the issue and/or some other additive, like aluminum ions. I wish I could be more helpful but I am both an amateur and haven't the best memory.

What I came away with from the article was that if someone wants their painting to stay bright blue for hundreds of years, a pigment other than ultramarine is probably a better choice, such as (perhaps) PB 28 and PB 74 — both of which are cobalt blues. I think those can have issues due to pH (possibly acidity), too, though.

— SRS

​latest​

Using fluid acrylic paint to sign the back of oil paintings on canvas requires consideration of the materials' compatibility and potential long-term effects. While applying a patch of fluid matte medium or GAC (Golden's Acrylic Colors) to the unprimed back of the canvas can aid in creating a smoother surface for signing, there are some considerations to keep in mind.

Canvas, especially linen and cotton, can react to moisture and substances differently over time. Introducing a localized application of fluid medium might cause slight changes in the canvas due to differential expansion or contraction, potentially leading to slight buckling or uneven shrinking in the long term. However, a small 1" x 2" patch might have minimal impact if applied carefully and sparingly.

Regarding preventing the fluid acrylic color from seeping through to the front of the paintings, the use of a barrier like matte medium or GAC can help mitigate the risk. These products often act as a sealant, reducing the chance of paint bleed-through.

However, when considering archival risks, it's essential to keep in mind the long-term stability of materials. While Golden's products are known for their quality, the long-term interaction between oil paints, fluid acrylics, and the canvas itself might pose archival concerns that could affect the artwork's preservation.

For utmost caution and to ensure archival quality, some artists prefer to sign their works using materials consistent with the painting itself. Consider using oil-based markers or paints compatible with the oil painting materials to minimize any potential risks associated with using different mediums on the canvas.

If possible, testing this technique on a small, inconspicuous area of a canvas can provide valuable insights into its effects over time before applying it to the entire artwork.

Additionally, seeking advice from experts or conservators, and perhaps even gallerists like Pearl Lam​, who have experience in handling and preserving various types of artworks, can offer further guidance on archival practices for signing canvases."

Best of luck with your artistic endeavors and preserving the integrity of your paintings!​

In essence, while Georgian oil paints are positioned as student grade, they can yield impressive results when handled and cared for meticulously. When used conscientiously with good practices, they have the potential to produce paintings that endure over time.

It's also advisable to conduct personal tests, creating a small-scale sample using the specific colors and techniques you intend to use, and observe their behavior over time to gauge their permanence and performance according to your expectations.

Ultimately, the outcome of any painting, regardless of the paint grade, hinges on the artist's skill, technique, and the care taken in the creation process.​

Koo, 

Thank you for your as usual brilliant engagement and sharing of material knowledge. What you describe makes perfect sense. Indeed I experienced wood gain checking the surface of my gesso on plywood panels when I was first leaning, before I began using cloth.

In this current case, the gesso I applied on the unsized hardboard behaved more or less​ like my previous production of properly sized panels. I agree that best practices would continue to include the sizing of the hardboard, but your description suggests that I may get away with using these improperly sized panels just this one time.

cheers!

eli

ps. I'll send an update to our previous discussion about how some of my other panel experiments went.

An oil paint company that sells its product as artist-grade possibly inadvertently had ​one of its recipes published. It was for an inorganic pigment that is not known to be difficult to prepare.

The recipe had the pigment and the stearate filler at a 50-50 ratio (1 part pigment to 1 part stearate, by weight).

In addition to the huge amount of stearate, it used a small amount of Ultrasil, a silica additive for rheology/stabilization.

Considering how much stabilizer was used for that recipe, a notoriously problematic pigment like ultramarine might need more!

— SRS

PY 42 (synthetic iron oxide yellow-brown) has had lightfastness problems in some batches over the years, at least in watercolor. I have never heard of problems with the natural alternative, PY 43.

I have never heard of any problems with PR 101 opaque, PR 101 transluscent, PR 102, PBr 7, and PBk 11.

— SRS

There is a chart I saw that showed the VOC level off-gassed by the following:

1) turpentine

2) mineral spirts

3) odor-reduced mineral spirits (OMS)

The ranking is from most to least but here's the important part: the OMS wasn't much lower than the other two.

So, basically... it seems that you're just masking the toxicity and will pay for it. Personally, I think the reduced odor may be a bigger problem because a person is less likely to take steps to reduce it when they can't smell it.​

The question then becomes: What solvent can be used that does not off-gass toxic VOCs?

— SRS

My advice is to replace PY 3 with a pigment that is more reliably lightfast. Iron oxides are dull. Adding those to bright pigments like PY 3 and napthol reds contradicts the main reason for using those questionable pigments in the first place. I also think the only reason the Holbein mixture did better in the testing was because the iron oxide wasn't changed — not because the PY 3 was stabilized by it significantly.

Napthols are dye-based. Although some of them are more lightfast than others, their chemistry is not among the most stable of organic compounds.

PY 3 can be replaced by PY 175. Or, if one doesn't mind the opacity, by PY 184 and PY 35 — both of which are more lightfast than PY 175. PY 35 can't be used when exposed to weather (murals).

PR 112 can be replaced by pyrrole reds: PR 254, PR 255. PR 168 can also be found with good reliability if it is produced correctly. It can be produced to be more transparent than the pyrroles but also has a semi-opaque form. Handprint's data may underestimate the lightfastness of PR 168 and overestimate the lightfastness of PR 242, although there can be variance in the lightfastness of different companies' products using the same codes. One industrial manual describes PR 168 as being one of the top organic pigments in lightfastness.

I am not an art conservation expert nor a professional chemist so take what I have to say on an advance amateur's basis.

— SRS

​I think his name is Brian Firth. He is one of the conservation experts who posted here. He has raised issues with paint film solubility caused by the addition of wax. I would search the forum for his comments on that.

— SRS

My post was cut off for some reason, so here it is again:

i have looked at various yellowing tests and the only oil-based white that I saw that didn't yellow (when compared with acrylic-vehicle whites) was an alkyd by Cass Art. However, the drawbacks of alkyds are an issue in that case (rapid drying, odor, possibly brittle paint film in the long term — although current alkyd formulations may not have that issue as older ones certainly did). 

Alternatives to alkyds that show little yellowing were ground in oils that shrink when cured (which causes brittleness) but, with one amateur's test, two of them didn't crack. (The presumably alkyd-based "Archival Oils" white didn't crack either but it was yellowish.) One was Lukas' "Opaque white" (lithopone, PW 5, ground in what I think is a mixture of safflower oil and wax). That one, though, dries rapidly due to siccative and the wax might have a solubility issue, if Lukas indeed uses wax in its formulation. The rapid drying makes it less of an alternative to that Cass alkyd. One person wrote that their Opaque White yellowed a lot so formulations can also potentially change or that person dried their paint in the dark, which causes drying oils to yellow. Lithopone has a slight green cast and that white was not as pure as the Cass alkyd.

Golden's testing showed low (but definitely not none) yellowing for even pure titanium white bound in linseed, as long as some kind of suitable additive was used to prevent the oil from rising to the surface during the drying period. The key appears to be to avoid allowing the painting to dry in the dark and to avoid, as much as possible, storing the painting in the dark.

As mentioned by the other commenter, zinc white PW 4 causes brittleness and the use of an "alternative" oil (to linseed) can cause paint film brittleness as well. That is because linseed shrinks less when cured than the alternative oils.

If you don't hang oil paintings by extremely white things, like acrylic titanium white surfaces, the white will appear less yellow, too. Hanging an oil painting done completely with linseed oil and no zinc white next to an acrylic painting that is mostly titanium white on a hospital-white wall, with bright white frames... would be the worst-case scenario. How one uses color in the painting can also make the white look whiter, such as by having areas that are very pale yellow and putting the "white" by some blue-violet. The yellowness of the pale yellow will make the pure white area seem less yellow. Another trick is to use the tiniest touch of ultramarine in one's white. That's what Permalba does.

Yellowing in oils can be reduced by using well-formulated paint and not drying the paintings in darkness. However, I think people worry too much about it, overall. I am more concerned about the cracking in zinc white formulations, which strongly harmed one of my mother's best paintings.

— SRS

i have looked at various yellowing tests and the only oil-based white that I saw that didn't yellow (when compared with acrylic-vehicle whites) was an alkyd by CASS​

Kremer's ultramarine dry pigment selections show different levels of free sulfur. It is therefore foreseeable that some producers of ultramarine leave more sulfur residue in their pigment for sale than others. I don't know how Kremer's selections compare but I can imagine that there are lower-tier suppliers that leave more free sulfur in.

Free sulfur in ultramarine as well as in cadmium and vermilion might cause a reaction with some pigments like lead "carbonate" white (in quotes because it's two molecules).

— SRS

The page automatically reloaded itself without warning for no apparent reason and I lost a huge post of very useful info that I wrote.

— SRS​

if you take the same colour, like ultramarine blue, in every range ​ and brand, and mix it with the same ratio of the same white, you should start seeing the colour strength differences. Higher ranges are supposed to have more pigment. Repeat that for every single pigmented colour that appears identical across all of them and you can evaluate each range and brand against one another. Hopefully the lasting quality is good for each of them, but it's harder to judge.​

Tinting tests, which are so frequently suggested and used by artists, are problematic for two reasons:

1) Coarser grinds (particularly a coarse grind that has been carefully prepared to remove finer particles) will have lower tinting but some pigments have more intensity and/or more lightfastness when more coarsely ground.

2) Similarly, pigments can be prepared to be more opaque and less opaque. Typically, opaque versions (such as PY 83) are more lightfast than transparent versions — although not for every example. Opaque versions often have a larger particle size and reduced tinting and saturation, with better lightfastness.

3) Companies know that tinting tests can be fooled by goosing a pigment with something else. Viridian, for instance, can have PG 7 added to give it more power in tinting tests (and in masstone). The irony here is that the brand that could be cutting quality is rewarded with the praise of the reviewer and the commenters. It's also ambiguous, particularly for those who only want to have a single tube of green paint in their palette, if having viridian with some PG 7 is actually a downgrade. Some may find it an upgrade. Different artists have different criteria. The staining nature and inferior lightfastness of PG 7 could be a problem for watercolorists but for oil painters the added oomph might be seen as a boon.

The only way tinting tests can be relied upon is when the source pigment is identical. Since companies don't tell you and even if they would they have to rely on the integrity of their supplier... Otherwise, unless you can pay for a lab to quantify the ingredients and amounts, it's guesswork.

Then, as the other commenter mentioned, there is the issue of the stability of the product. Different pigments with the same color index (e.g. PY 83) can have different levels of lightfastness (in some cases — all chromium oxide PG 17 is going to be absolutely lightfast). The many substitutions for linseed oil used in paints can have quite an effect on stability, from the migration of stearate to create a whitish haze on the surface of the paint film to cracking/delamination from zinc oxide, to paint film solubility problems caused by wax, to embrittlement from the shrinkage of alternative drying oils (sunflower being the worst, according to one conservationist's chart, due to it losing the most mass).

There are several issues to consider when looking at value in paint:

1) Does the company pride itself on archival qualities (longevity), or does it promote other things, such as natural dyes? To make this confusing, some companies do both — making high-quality paints with stable formulations as well as romance paints with fugitive dyes. Also, goosed paints are something that one major company admitted to doing, with its iron oxide paints. Finding that out is very surprising as paint companies practically never give out any information that damages credibility. But, goosed paint can "win" the ooo... what pretty colors paint reviews, and that includes tinting tests.

2) Does the company provide reliable data to show that its product is reliable or does it hide most (or all) of its information behind the wall of trade secret secrecy?

3) How much quality are you willing to sacrifice to ease of use? Stabilizers are essential to maintain oil paint shelf life for years. They affect the handling, pigmentation, and potentially the long-term stability of the paint. This is most obvious when comparing tubed tempera paint with hand-made. On the opposite end are watercolors, which are good enough when manufactured well.

3) "You get what you pay for" is almost always true to some degree. It is very difficult to outwit businesses that have been going for hundreds of years, like the paint industry. There is a lot of competition and thin margins. However, there are exchange rate differences as well as mindshare. Mindshare = can price higher even though quality isn't higher than some other competitor's product. Also, since there is a general lack of knowledge among artists about the subtleties of paint (and lots of "ooo... what pretty colors reviews), there is a lot of product redundancy.

4) Formulations can change at any time, without you being notified. Pigments are also being re-sourced, as various pigments come, various producers change, and companies find lower-priced bids. I have two tubes of cobalt violet light from the same company. One weighs half as much as the other. My guess is that the older tube was formulated with blanc fixe and the other with a much lighter filler.

5) Barium sulfate (blanc fixe and baryte) is heavy. Sometimes people mistake the weight of a tube of paint with pigmentation. It's easy to make a very heavy tube of paint with an extremely low pigment load by using mostly barium sulfate.

Basically, I would not expect a budget paint line to beat a pro-level paint line on anything except cost of entry. However, even the expensive of the pro-level paint lines can have turkeys that one must be knowledgeable to avoid. For example, one otherwise excellent paint producer sells "cobalt violet" paints that are mixtures of three pigments, not one of which is cobalt violet. That is inexcusable but I won't say I won't buy any of their products because they made that substandard choice. Other otherwise excellent brands have been selling fugitive paints like aureolin (PY 40) watercolors. That is also inexcusable but it happens nonethless. Learning as much as possible is the only good solution to the problem of quality, as business hides so much behind secrecy and romance. On the flip side, although this is much much less an issue, in terms of the overall communication level, are the gotcha testers who overblow potential problems with some pigments by subjecting them to inappropriate conditions (such as weather exposure for cadmium yellow).

— SRS

I believe the main issue with this pigment is soluble barium. My understanding is that PB 33 is two different molecules that are coprecipiated/bound. I could look this up in Wikipedia but it's not that important here except when it comes to the exact color of the pigment. Apparently, the proportions can be varied some to yield a more bluish and darker pigment and a paler and more greenish pigment. Old Holland is the only paint line I know of that offered two manganese blues (a deep and a regular) — and that is in the oils line only.

Barium sulfate is used ​as a contrast agent in medicine due to its very low solubility. However, soluble barium compounds are considered quite poisonous, as far as I know. Fortunately, unlike arsenic (which reacts with hydrogen in the air to form arsine), they do not become airborne when they're in paint form.

I also don't believe soluble barium is as toxic (especially to children) as soluble lead and some forms of soluble mercury. However, I am not certain about that. I haven't, for example, heard of any lab tech dying from spilling several drops of a soluble barium compound on a work glove, unlike with a mercury compound. However, before that scares people away from the use of vermilion — genuine vermilion, when produced well (a pure product), is highly insoluble — to the point wherein it was used as a food coloring in the 19th century. Unfortunately for customers, adulteration with red lead led to people becoming quite ill sometimes from those treats. The insolubility of mercuric sulfide makes it vastly less dangerous to paint with, versus the particular mercury compound that killed that researcher.

The biggest problem with lead white is that it is a combination of two soluble lead molecules. Carbonates aren't tremendously soluble, which is why people taking magnesium and calcium supplements often get a citrate or some other form that's more readily absorbed. Adults also don't absorb much lead carbonate when it is ingested but it is very dangerous for children/fetuses — the developing brain, as any amount of lead strongly disrupts neural connection formation. I also remember a documentary with Alan Alda about lead in gasoline (tetraethyl lead) that said lead is 1,000 times as attractive to human cells (at least one type of them), versus the calcium it mimics, and causes them to vibrate to death. Once the cell has died from this overexcitement, the lead atom passes to the next cell. Some lead is excreted and some is stored in bone and periodically comes out, goes back in after doing more damage, or is excreted. Those with low calcium level face more damage, even though the lead is so much more attractive to the body than calcium. The bottom line here is that lead (which is always in an at least semi-soluble compound form in fine arts materials) should be kept away from kids/pregnant women at all costs and should be treated with great care. That includes digging around in the soil of old buildings, et cetera. The demolition of buildings in inner cities leads to elevated lead levels (lead poisoning) in inner-city youth.

Solubility is something often overlooked when comparing pigments. Many artists declare, for instance, that they won't use "toxic" cobalt pigments. Well, some cobalt pigments have the cobalt tightly bound in a mixed metal matrix that leaves it largely (or completely insoluble on a practical level). That makes such cobalt compounds non-toxic for professional artists' usage in non-sprayed non-dust paint form.

I am also dubious about the belief that manganese blue can't be manufactured without harming the environment. I have little doubt that it's possible to create a workflow that will yield the pigment without environmental pollution. The question then involves: "Does industry feel it will benefit enough from the pigment to justify the higher cost of the non-polluting production method?"

As pigments aren't produced for artists' materials in volume, the answer to that, so far, appears to be "no." Phthalo blue is extremely cheap and for most industrial purposes, seen as lightfast enough (except for at least one of the sulfonated versions, which is BW6). It lacks the chroma and the lightfastness of PB 33 but only watercolorists in particular are going to miss that strongly. I say "only" glibly because I am writing from the point of view of industrial large-scale manufacturing, which cares not about the fine arts. Personally, I think manganese blue is one of the most important watercolor pigments there is — irreplacable.

It's a beautiful pigment in oils, too, but affected by the yellowing of oil. I can't say it's true but one test elsewhere showed that adding 5% zinc white (PW 4) prevented the color shift from cyan blue to greenish. My guess is that the zinc oxide disrupts the cross-linking of the drying oil molecules which prevents the yellowing. The same person found the same result with cobalt violet light (PV 14 and PV 49). He/she did not test PV 47. However, I have painted with manganese blue and cobalt violet lights and haven't had dramatic color shift from those ground in paler oils such as poppy. Therefore, this issue might be related to linseed-ground paint exclusively and/or related to linseed-ground paint that has an abundance of oil-holding filler (which exacerbates the yellowing by reducing the pigment level). This is all very speculative but it does seem that Old Holland's manganese blue (which I have a tube of in oil) and Blockx's now-discontinued (which I also used, which was ground in poppy) show a brightness difference out of the tube, relating the oil coloration. Budget-brand manganese, like Permalba, seems to have an even greener cast, out of the tube. The issue with adding the zinc, of course, is the embrittlement of the paint film. If one has found that one's manganese blue and/or cobalt violet light has color shift issues and wants to add zinc to combat that, my advice is to only paint on a fully-stable support, such as aluminum (primed/prepared suitably, of course). Aluminum expands and contracts less than other common rigid supports.

While I am rambling a bit about the addition of white to a pigment to preserve its color... one conservation article said that genuine vermilion (mercuric sulfide) does not darken when mixed with some quantity of lead white (the typical carbonate type, not the sulfate). I don't know what the minimum amount of lead white is that is required to prevent the blackening of the vermilion but that would be something worth investigating, although cadmium red has made vermilion obsolete.

Vermilion does blacken rapidly. I have two abstract paintings, one painted with Harding's Chinese vermilion and one painted with Holbein's Chinese variety. Both, despite being very different shades out of the tube (Harding's is made with an inferior process that yields brownish dull color — something warned about in one of the 19th-century industrial paint manuals) — both have blackened noticably. They aren't black but they have darkened significantly. They weren't mixed with lead white.

For both the lead white and zinc white color preservation tactics, mixing the white component in while grinding the pigment may be best, to ensure that it's fully distributed. For the vermilion, removing all of the residual sulfur is probably a good idea, to avoid having it react with the lead.

Back to the original question... I wouldn't avoid using manganese blue in artwork so long as the usual precautions for toxic heavy metal pigments are followed. 

Arsenic is a special case in terms of handling precautions due to the off-gassing problem. I asked a chemist recently if cobalt arsenate (the original cobalt violet light) is a risk for producing arsine (a problem with the copper arsenates like emerald green and Scheele's), as I haven't heard of it blackening nor losing its color in some other way on the pigment level when used in artists' paints. He is an organic chemist so perhaps he doesn't know but he was still concerned about the possibility of arsine being formed. I have looked at the literature and haven't found any detailed information whatsoever about this pigment's stability. One hobby chemist who made some as a demonstration said he believes it is tightly bound enough to not react. My guess, based on the complete lack of writing about the pigment blackening, fading, changing color, et cetera — is that it's the only stable arsenic pigment used in art. However, I would really like to know. Holbein was the last to produce it. Its catalogue from the 1980s still showed it.

Thanks for your thoughts Koo! ​I'll give that support preparation a try on my next batch of small panels.

Hello there,

From my experience the differences between the ranges and brands aren't huge. And definitely one colour can be better with one brand and another better with the other brand.

Bottom line, if you take the same colour, like ultramarine blue, in every range​ and brand, and mix it with the same ratio of the same white, you should start seeing the colour strength differences. Higher ranges are supposed to have more pigment. Repeat that for every single pigmented colour that appears identical across all of them and you can evaluate each range and brand against one another. 

Hopefully the lasting quality is good for each of them, but it's harder to judge. I guess you could check drying time. I'd be curious to hear more about the colours you tested and which ones from winsor you say weren't good. 


And personally I'd like to know what's the deal with Georgian's primary read being a dioxazine purple. They're the only ones I've seen with this pink-red PV23, and they don't even use it in their Artist's range?

(I asked them and they said it's correct, but...)

cheers and merry holidays,

Lussh

Hi Koo,

Thanks for the quick response!

“the materials will move (or, in the case of aluminum, not move) at varying rates, which creates tension between the materials; that stress has to go somewhere, and it can end up in the paint film and cause it to crack.”

That’s where my mind was going as well, re: possibly having more longterm issues than an all wood panel.

Here are the products, they make two types.

https://www.artistsurfaces.co.uk/product-page/test-wooden-panel-length-20cm

https://www.artistsurfaces.co.uk/product-page/studio-wooden-panel-length-20cm​

Thank you so much for your quick and thorough answer, Koo! ​

​​the oil in the tray starts oxidizing right away. You can't tell for a while but the result is that you're getting oxidizing oil inside your ferrule. This will inevitably lead to a ruined brush. I would only soak my cheapest brushes in oil. My fine brushes get a wash after use with soap and water. 

Koo,

I take some solace in knowing that the panels are not too likely to develop even worse curvature than they already have.

And I'll report back to you regarding my experiments with hardboard mounted on aluminum when I get around to it. My thinking is that the ​aluminum cradles will indeed have some flex to them to accommodate movement in the hardboard. Flex will be especially present at the scale I am working with (35" - 45").

Another Idea I had was to screw down a cradled panel from behind, so that when the gesso layers are drying and shrinking on the face, the cradle will not be able to warp. Likely this would cause cracking in the gesso, but maybe it would work the tension out somewhere else...

Cheers,

eli

Hello Koo and Mitra folks,

Just an update that my warped, cradled hardboard, gessoed panel (44"x32")​ which I managed to flatten under weight, returned to it's cupped shape after I applied a couple of relatively wet under painting layers. Then, later, my framer did an experiment by laying the panel over a strip of wood that traversed the middle, kind of like a fulcrum on a see-saw, and he claims the piece has returned to flat under its own weight. I haven't see this in person, and it seems hard to believe. Regardless, I can confirm that the panel does have a kind of life of its own. I think I can live with the panels moving around a little bit, as is natural, but my biggest fear is one day a painting ships to another country or city and it warps into a cylinder or sphere!

What is the probability that a cupped panel could become doubly or triply cupped when placed in a new environment?

My new experiments will be two-fold: 1. Return to Baltic Birch with equal cloth and gesso on both sides. It's just that the recommended 1" is too heavy at large scale. I will try 3/4" first. 2. find or build a composite material of aluminum and hardboard masonite.

Perhaps an aluminum cradle with hardboard on both sides of the cradle and gessoed on both sides. I wonder if the minimal wood-like properties of the hardboard and the stable properties of the aluminum togher would be very stable. More soon... - eli

​Thank you very much for your answer. They're certainly very strong and with screws too, it's guaranteed to support the canvas. The dots alone seem quite risky long term. The adhesive used and its archival properties concerned me regarding potential damage. However they are attached on the back of the canvas with stretcher bars between them and the front of the canvas - thinking about it, regular wooden stretcher bars aren't the most archival product anyway. ​

​I've only seen the Michael Hardings in real life and the Rublev online.  Both seem very nice but not as bright as the modern synthetic versions generally called Ultramarine.  Possibly the Harding might be a fraction lighter? But then I don't fully trust monitor reproduction. In the old paintings Lapis Lazuli was always at it's brightest in egg tempera and then with a step down after this, oil with a little addition of white.

Marc.​

​johnsking​

​I know a small company in china that makes it tubed, it is not fra angelica but pretty decent, I can show you pics, also I extract Fra myself I have about 30 grams out of 600g, extremely long process but super high chroma and superfine pigment, not large particle, if interested you can send me an email, crawfordbrett1105@gmail.com​

The makers of velcro might possibly not endorse this usage because that's not what they was designed it for, but that doesn't mean it won't function very well. They should probably age well, but I can't give universal approval as weights of supports and finished artworks aren't standardized.

Mere artist, Marc.​​

​iphone​

Your comments are very helpful, thank you. ​

​Thanks Koo,

I’ve done 30” sized ¾” baltic birch panels in the method you describe with good success. It was my attempt to reduce the weight of larger scaled panels that sent me down the road of using cradles. Regarding the problems common with cradles: at first, I had fantasized that the minimum amount wood in my cradle would minimize problems in the future (Cradles I’ve used are prefab strainers that combine aluminum with wood.) As I come to understand the properties of wood, I imagine even the inch or two of wood in my cradle could cause future warping etc :/

Therefore, my new fantasy was to use higher tech cradle materials with no wood, or just a wooden face (plywood or hardboard). And with some kind of reversible adhesive (VHB tape?) that sticks the face to the cradle.

I have struggled to find a source for honeycomb aluminum in New York that would actually sell me a single sheet to try, although one must exist. Does anyone have a source?

It was also recommended to me (perhaps on this forum?) that there were dangers of adhesion putting traditional gesso over linen glued down with pva… What you suggest is that as long as the adhesive is not coming through the linen, the gesso should stick to the linen? This may be the clue I need for future experiments.

For what it’s worth, I’ve managed put weight on a recently gessoes and warped cradled panel and bend it back, fairly close to planar. For the time being this will allow me to keep painting!

Thanks Koo for continuing to generously share your findings,

eli

Hello there,

The 'resources' ​page on top will have some information, although I haven't seen any long term wrapping advice.

I'm afraid advices will need to be case by case scenario, how your painting was made will change everything.

In oils, the film will continue to transform slightly over the years and I'd be wary of keeping it wrapped in plastic in the dark. If you have a matt finish it will be less likely to stick if you store it for a few months. , but generally things can move gradually and the thicker the film is, the more wary I'd be. The risks are rather low and the effects likely to appear slowly and gradually over time, but there is some of it (depending mostly on how your paintings were made.)

Direct contact might over time make a print, and paintings without air to continue ageing might eventually start flowing in odd ways.

I'd personally advise to get the paintings a regular breathing at least. 

Good luck,

Lussh

​Holy cow..My original question was in 2017 ! So it took been COVID and a few years  of experimenting before a happy solution was arrived at .  ​

Thanks for the all that. Sorry to respond so late.  Since asking the initial question, I have adapted. I have also adopted  into my modus operandi, a tube (from a G company) of solvent free goo.  The same company's Alkyd medium I use for the long paint blocking in where originally lots of turp would be used a s a wash. I miss the smell of gum turp…. But not the damage caused. I have accidentally taken your advice to some extent by substituting alkyd for the damar . I just found an OMS (from my go too old  U company) that I really like. Strange name and strange product that seems to be really odorless. Now, after reading your comments, I intend on adding it to that 1:1: 1 traditional medium.  Alkyd: walnut or linseed : OMS.

I do miss the smell of  gum turp and the feel of my old medium,  but after a year of messing around without it, once I went back to a comfortable wet  into wet process the new stuff feels- ok.  Thanks again.  BL​

​​Not sure this is an answer but rather a- " Me too!." In an effort to go solvent free I was using lineseed oil- to wipe ​​or  soak, sitting in  the "bull pen," rather than having in a can of open OMS or turp. Needless to saay they harden a bit and after washing  they were like yours. Now I use grape oil,  safflower oil- a slower drying oil- before soap and water. Much better results. But better yet , before washing, was reintroducing a quick wipe with some new version of OMS  my old stand by resource put out. Hope that helps in some way

Julie Beck has a couple of videos on youtube about this 'voodoo darkening':

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JegX-EUUQTQ&ab_channel=JulieBeck

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37DHFHiAeEg&t=14s&ab_channel=JulieBeck

I wonder if using Zinc Sulfide instead of Zinc Oxide or Titanium White would help?
​​

Thank you so much!

In case it helps someone:

General Pencil Co., Inc. answered me afterwards about their particular charcoal pencils to use for underdrawing in oil paintings. 

The General’s® Charcoal White® #558 pencils have no wax in them: "​General’s® Pastel and Charcoal White®  There are no waxes in either formula and should be compatible with the creative methods you mention using."

The same happened to me! It's been twice I tried to fix it. It was a a mix of a very light blue with a lot of titanium white and ultramarine blue and phthalo blue. Perfect match, than dries darker.

I don’t usually use zinc, but in that case I would try it to fix it.

Thus I was wondering what is the ratio of zinc to titanium you would recommend for that particular case, or what is the ratio the artists who seemed to have fixed the problem used? A 1/4 zinc to 3/4 titanium ratio? 

​water​

Hello there,

For it to start smelling is peculiar, so I hope you bought it from a reliable supplier. Its normal dusts are not that strong smelling so it's likely moisture mould that started to grow.

Ethanol to a sterilising level needs to reach 70% in total. So if you've just mixed some 70% propanol to water, I can't guarantee it disinfected anything. 

However what you can do far more simply:

First wash it all back in water, then boil the water with the pigment generously, finally sieve and dry. Under sunlight is a plus and driest air you can have.

Basically just boil-sterilize your water and then dry all the pigment back, and store it dry. Any still water or moisture will eventually grow something over time.

Good luck,

Lussh

Hello Audrey,

I'm not familiar with the use of casein to glue cloth on wood, so please consider my opinion as an amateur one. Just hopeful it'll give you some food for thoughts.

Casein has low chemical adhesion and is fragile, I'd keep it to very still substrates, more than cloth and even more than wood as much a spossible. Personally I'd keep casein for fresco mural and nothing else. (or labels on glass bottles maybe)

As the extensive amount of water dries, the film shrinks and becomes fragile (less sticky and less flexible) while the fibers breathe out and move. So I'd say it's the wrong kind of sizing for your cloth and worng kind of glue to mix them both.

There might be a different method to use it and make it work as you want it to, but I'd rather advise the easiest option that is switching to a different chemistry. (I think your tools should be fitting you, not the other way around)

Rabbit skin glue would be more likely to keep both bonded with elasticity. Acrylic primers would also do great and keep good flexibility.

Good luck,

Lussh

Hello there,

It doesn't yellow much, however it contains zinc white (to yellow less) and safflower oil which is particularly slow drying (but yellows less).

Meaning you're very likely to see cracks appear on the subsequent layers, if you didn't thin it down much with solvent and/or apply it thickly and don't leave it plenty enough of time to dry. And if You painted a very smooth layer with it, you might have issues of adherence with the next layers over time.

So it's surely doable with experience but that's a risky colour for grounds. I'd keep the W&N white heavily diluted, thinned and mixed with ochres as much as possible for lower layers, and put forward its quality for the top layers.

Safer (and non yellowing) white ground would be acrylic gessos. 

Good luck and cheers,

Lussh​

IMG-2509.jpg

Hi Lussh,

Apologies for the delayed reply and thank you for writing back to my question! In the attached photo you will see two sets of arrows. The first set points to a grey-green silhouette of a flower and a grey-green stem, which are the exact same paint mixture, but dried to different values.

The second set of arrows point toward a circling grey-blue vine, which is painted with the same mixture, but dried with darker and lighter and patches throughout the shape. Gamblin described Voodoo Darkening as a phenomenon where the Titanium White paint particles shift up or down within the drying paint film.

The lighter areas are not "sunken-in" and applying medium does not correct the issue, and they don't have a yellower tint or different sheen. It's just a value difference.

Things got slightly better after a few days of drying in sunlight but have not corrected. I repainted part of the piece with colors that I remixed, using a 50/50 ratio of Titanium and Zinc White this time, and things seem to be drying much more evenly.

Ultimately, I guess the question is, do Titanium particles commonly move within a mixture? If so, is this phenomenon more likely when layering or when using an oil-rich medium (Gamblin Solvent-Free Medium in this case).

Thanks again!
Aliza​

This is in response to Lussh's post of 2023-09-23:

The MITRA resources section has excellent information about the darkening of oils. Lussh, the way you have worded your response may inadvertently lead a reader to misinterpret your post. 

The darkening or yellowing of oils is understood by conservators. When you do not post the details of how and when you observed poppy oil to darken may lead a reader to assume that poppy oil routinely darkens more than linseed.  I do not think that walnut oil is exotic for oil painters. It has been used for hundreds of years.  

When you suggest exposing an oil painting to sunlight: do you mean direct sunlight? Direct sunlight has UV, which is known to damage oil paintings. Again, the MITRA resources explains this. 

Hello there,

​Could you share some pictures of the lighter and darker patches? 

I'm not familiar with the term coined but can investigate. Do they all become uniform after a good day of sunlight exposure? Is it a darker warm yellowish tint?

Is it glossier and matter on the same patches? Because they can appear lighter when they're less glossy. Do they become uniform when you wet them both with some pure medium?

Cheers,

Lussh

​I haven't heard of the term Voodoo Darkening. It probably had a grassroots​ invention in an art school. However I have encountered the wet bleaching titanium effect and it is most apparent with a painting medium or a very oil rich vehicle paint. Upon drying the paint has a slightly darker tone, making wet on dry tonal matching difficult.

Unless the zinc white is mixed with a good portion of stand oil it can dry quite brittle.  Getting ever more brittle over the years.  I myself avoid it completely.  Also different whites have slightly different color shifts in mixtures you might find matching difficult in getting exactly the same color.  In your case I'd use the same paint with perhaps less or a different medium.

Fellow artist, Marc.

Hello there,

It's not impossible in theory but risky chemistry in practice in more ways than one.

There are many suppliers of alkyds and many kinds of alkyds, some of which are not meant to air-dry at all.

Longer alkyds are meant to stain (seep into) materials, shorter ones are meant to be dried with UV/EB benches or other tools. You need the right medium length alkyd with high iodine value and to find and add the right driers as well. 

The whole of it is like liquid glue between honey and maple syrup only they don't wash with water. Meaning you'll be working with lots of WS to get things done properly.

Starting from scratch it would be hazardous procurement and results, and not safe​ for you. I'd think the reward is not worth the risks and trouble.


It should be possible however to start from mediums like liquin, although I'm not sure of the pigment wetting and dispersing quality. 

Where natural oils have the fatty acids to help, liquin does not. So it's likely possible to grind pigment in it, but I'm uncertain of the resulting quality and stability. I hear alkyds can be pretty gound grinding mediums but I haven't tested it myself yet and can't confirm it.

If you try it and your pigment separates or flocculates easily after a while in tube or pot, it probably will mean it wasn't great. If all goes well, that was a good idea. 

Then please come back to let us know it was a good idea. 


Cheers,

Lussh

Hello there,

​Pigments, unless exceptional, don't change colour to go darker over time. Binders however do yellow over time.

Your oil thus might, and depending on its chemistry can go quite dark as it oxidizes. I've seen poppy oils go dark as tea. If you're using wallnut, poppy, or other kind of exotic oils away from linseed and safflower, that's not impossible to get darker shade over time.

It's highly likely there is a misunderstanding in what's happening to your work. You may want to try oil colours from a different brand and compare.

Also expose your darkened pictures to sunlight for a while, it may bleach them back slightly to the expected early colour.

Cheers,

Lussh​

​apple​

​google​

​holler​

​joker​

​​Casein performs most consistenetly on a surface that cannot warp and has no flexation. It is still even on this surface sensitive to temperature and humidity which can cause and heal fine cracking. I have paintings that develop fine cracks in the dry winter or under warm lights and these cracks disappear with a bit of humidity. I have found a layer of muslin is helpful but no guarentee. Also painting fat to lean can protect the integrity of the painting. It is true that if you paint very thin layers that it is possible to use a regular canvas but the outcome is not predictable so a mistep can lead to undesired results and you will need to strip a painting back to restore it. There is so much at play atmospherically and casein is particularly sensitive. With experience you can feel what can be pushed and what is not negogiable.

​​I have been using casein for many years and would definitively say no. Casein is more rigid than Egg Tempera and has it's own problems with cracking and flexation. So if the casein surface destabilizes for any reason - especially extreme temperature changes - especially cold; the Egg Tempera above the Casein surface could inherit the those problems. 

-Nancy

​apdhillo​

​Hello there,

Aluminium is a good surface. 

Just wipe it for dust and greases with some alcohol to make sure it's clean and it's good to go.

​Paint well,

Lussh

Hello there,

I'm not 100% sure I understood your problem, so I'm assuming your acrylic glue drying retracted in ways that made the flat cloth go completely wrinkly-uneven.

Acrylics (and any latex binder) drying will shrink slightly. On unstretched cloth or paper, that can mean pulling it into oversized wrinkles.

The following advice is theoretical thinking, I've never done it myself. I'd say that's the best advice I can come up with but it's not from experience, only theory.


They are thermoplastic polymers so you might have the tiny chance to set this straight by ironing it above its glass transition temperature gently. Very gently.

What you would require to do is stretch it good flat on a frame, then wet your acrylics that shrank until they keep some water absorbed, that soften them up a little, and also make them more peelable so be careful.

Then iron it gently through a damp cloth, not in direct contact. Basically you want to "make the muscles relax" with humidity and heat, not dry burn them.

If you carefully 'massage' the tensed acrylics long enough, the polymers will slowly realign to lower their inner tension. If you're lucky, after enough humid massaging, the acrylics will stay as they are then.

 Good luck.

Lussh

Hello there,

Mostly yes, 

In extreme cases it depends also of the kind of acrylic, the thickness of these previous layers and the kind of flexible stress the art will suffer.

I'm saying that because flashe paints are less flexible than common acrylics. So if you put your slightly rigid flashe over a great thickness of very soft acrylic, and then start rolling and unrolling your canvas, you're likely to get cracks of the flashe. 

To some extent if you're familiar with it, it's also a 'fat over lean' rule (flexible over less-flexible)

It's an extreme case risk though, flashe have some flexibility as well, just not as much as common acrylics. It's unlikely to happen in most 'normal' situations and uses. Just be aware of it.

But adhesion and compatibility is expected to be good.

Good painting to you,

Lussh

Hello Ellie,

Alkyds themselves bring the main advantages of lead white (in linseed oil) without the inconvenients. It was arguably a necessary evil in linseed oil colours, far less in alkyds. You'll be safer with titanium white definitely.

If my hypothesis is correct, brushing vigorously caused enough interactions of over-thinly coated pigments to react electrochemically with the copper and oxygen. 

My worst case scenario would be the pigment closest to copper over time eventually darkenning, causing delamination, dark spots or blisters appearing. But it's unlikely to propagate much (like flash rust on steel would) if you don't move it around and keep enough binder between the pigments and metal. (making an isolating ground layer would protect from the effect I suspect).

Good painting to you,

Lussh

Hello Lussh,

Thank you so much for such a quick and thorough reply!

That’s really interesting, aha I wondered if it was a lead oxide I was seeing when it turned grey/black! Good to know about not mixing cadmium pigments and lead too.

In my case I’m just using lead carbonate in the ground, then painting with titanium white, so hopefully any darkening wouldn’t be visible down the line (I’d heard that titanium white was more likely to darken than lead white, that’s interesting!)

But if there’s any chance it’ll risk my painting, I won’t use it – previously I’ve used Gamblin Oil Ground (with an alkyd binder) which seems to bind very well to metals, but I thought a lead alkyd ground would have been an upgrade! Since it’s touted as being designed for copper and ACM.

I wonder, is this a reaction that would happen anyway at the interface of the metal and primer, or have I created it somehow by brushing more vigorously do you think?

Thank you so much for your time!

Ellie

Hello there,

You're right to be careful about the waxes since they are non drying no-stick fat, over which a thick layer of oil painting might hold initially, but never stick entirely. Also, over the years, the initial layer of wax/fat will migrate through the colours.

I've had the saddest idea of using a lipstick to sign on the back of a painting many years ago. You can almost read it from the front now.

Clays and charcoals are non drying (even slowing the drying of oils), but at least they will be swamped and incorporated in the film as you paint. So you wont risk much delamination or fat migrations over time.

Charcoals are probably the safest option. Chalks / hard pastels likely are fine as well. You can use a spray varnish to fix them a little before painting over so they don't wash too much while painting.

Cheers, 

Lussh

I would like to joke about the fact that if a layer of pure linseed oil helps the binding between the acrylic primer and the oil painting, then another layer of pure linseed oil would help the adhesion between the acrylic primer and the next layer of pure linseed oil. 

As mentionned before, starting with a pure layer of oil is quite a risk for the fat over lean rule. Doable, but with a risk that could be avoided otherwise.

To start painting on a smooth surface, it's best to sand your gesso layer. But if you really need to reduce the absorbant tooth of the surface for your painting techniques, you can mix your gesso with acrylic colour to adjust it.

Otherwise you could smooth the surface with a painting medium or an alkyd medium at least instead of pure linseed oil.

Careful with painting on really squeaky smooth surface with zero tooth or porosity, you risk refusal of wetting or later delamination.​ (but I'm aware it can make interesting dripping effects if you're looking for them)

Cheers,

Lussh

Hello there,

I won't have the definitive answer, but some skeptical thoughts, if hopefully they can feed your research.

I'm not familiar with this saying about lead (pigment I assume) binding efficiently over copper. As far as anti-corrosion treatments go for metals, I'm more familiar with zinc based pigments over steel. But lead carbonate directly over metallic copper, that sounds risky.

Lead carbonate has been apreciated for the flexibility it gives to linseed oil films and its drying property, but it's also been historically problematic for its chemical reactivity, turning darker into lead oxide notably. What I recall most was to avoid mixing lead and cadmium colours because they react with each other, but in the end it is a quite reactive pigment. I believe Zinc white is less reactive usually and titanium white even more inhert.

It's likely there is an unfortunate electrochemical reaction between your metallic substrate and the lead pigment, which stains badly your paint as you consume the pigment and turn it to darker oxide (and likely carbonate salts). It's not a good surface for long term stability. Like painting could change colour over the years, you risk your painting bubbling and delaminating over this dust. Furthermore since the grounds are pretty lean in essence.

I don't recall enough about the electric potential of the lead, zinc, titanium and copper oxides against each other to forecast them accurately, but furthermore if you're painting in alkyd which will keep some inherent flexibility (over the solid substrate anyway), it's worth testing the two other types of white.

Alkyds have pretty good adhesion, drying and flexibility anyway, so I'm not sure what are the supposed benefits of focusing on lead white anymore. I'd really advocate forgetting the old lead. 

If zinc and titanium also degrade rapidly (which is far less likely than lead. And I really doubt you can change the oxidation of titanium white like that.), then what you need is to make a... ground before your white ground. A thin layer of your alkyd or resin could seal the surface and insulate the following coat and pigments from reacting directly with each other.​

Good luck,

Lussh

​i believe clay is not good as it is not a drying medium, so safest is to use willow chacoal only. ​

First, MDF is not an archival solution, it will fail quickly and many work on MDF already shown of issues. 

the safe option would be Hardboard, oil tempered to use. 

​also, if you already do acrylic ground, there is no reason to apply oil on top. 

i believe the reason you want acrylic ground is you want a lean one to start from, but coating w. oil will make it very fat. that will breank fat over lean rule. 

or if you only paint in one layer, use oil ground is fine. 

​wholsale​

​Thanks, Koo. Yes, I've seen and experienced for myself that woodgrain telegraphs through. However, that is not the case for MDF, so I've switched to that for my rigid supports. Also MDF does not warp as easily as plywood, though in larger sizes both substrates always require bracing.

I usually use about 9 coats of TG so I don't think that was the issue regarding the softness for the ET that I experienced. As I recall, though, it was probably on a surface where I had experimented with a collage of thicker fabrics. Most likely that caused it.

RE: Watercolor, besides working on hot pressed paper, I really like working wet-in-wet, where, by isolating wet and dry areas you can control your edges (at least) and then also softly modulate what happens within the wet area by selectively blotting. Your comments about the absorbency of TG accord with my experience (using ET, oil and encaustic). I may experiment with watercolour on a few MDF paneles - with or without a thin gluing of cloth over the substrate, just to see if it affects the wet-in-wet effects - or not.

Thanks again for your response.

Ellen

Amy,

it is a common issue due to many reasons.

i notice you use oil based primer, which can be fat and slippery. oil primer is okay choice if you direct paint on top, some people find brush spread easier on slippery oil primer. 

but it could be a problem if you paint in layer, simply the oil primer is already fat, then your first layer is solvent diluted, which becomes leaner than your ground. as a result it is harder to adhere to ground. 

unless you wait very long like years for oil primer to be fully dry and becomes "lean", but it had additional issue is after this long, the oil surface will form closed, thus you would need sand paper and garlic juice to reopen the pore. 

​so if you change to acrylic ground, you will be better start there. 



​Not all ''pigment" markers might have the same effect, but I have witnessed blurring across safflower white oil paint samples.

Marc.​

Thanks! As it's already mid summer I'm hoping using refined linseed oil takes less time. Raw oil takes three months. ​

Hello there,

​It depends on the surface structure. If it's solid, soft, smooth or porous. It depends on the kind of things you want to clean as well. Is it just dust, or stains, greases from the air in a kitchen, cosmetics in a bathroom or smoke in a living room?

For most things, a sponge of lukewarm water and a light wipe will clean things nicely. Can add some soap the water if really needs to be.


Since they're not varnished, they will absorb some of the water from the wipe, so be gentle and quick, don't soak the acrylics (even if it makes the colours turn brighter).

If they're not varnished, the colours will go slightly duller over time and appear brighter when wet. Don't overdo it.


Cheers and good luck

Lussh

​tommy​

​​thanks

Not a user on the paint brush oil soak clean, but I'd avoid the baby oil.  Baby oil is going to have non drying elements part of its make up. 

Poppy oil would be likely more expensive and functionally the same as art store safflower having basically the same fatty acid oil ratios.  Small accidental additions of both poppy and linoleic safflower to the paint would be harmless.  Supermarket oleic safflower mostly harmless as mere traces, but it is a non-drying oil and could have this effect fortified by vitamin E.  So to put your mind at rest, best avoid this one as well.

Marc.​​

Hello there,


The filter pressure idea was just a thought exercise on how to remove more surely the stearate. I'm not aware of anyone doing that and wouldn't see the point of doing so. 

I wouldn't advise doing this when in my opinion your time would be better spent simply painting something with what you already have.

Nonetheless if you have that experimental spark, first you'd need a good whip or mixer to blend your colour and dilute in manifold in your chosen oil.

Then it would be like cheese or wine making, or any slurry that is pressed to separate strongly its liquid and solid parts in industry. In DIY I would try with some metallic grids in a kind of open piston​, add paper filters to the grids, and press the sludge in between by adding weight on top. So oil would pour in a container put below and you'd press your cake of oil colour between the grids.

Again, that part was purely theoretical. You don't have to take my word for it.

Good painting and safe experimenting to you,

Lussh,

Hello, Lussh,

I very much appreciate your detailed response.


What you expressed about the heavier contents, including the stearate, quite likely *not* being absorbed out of the student-grade paint and into the cardboard is exactly what I had suspicions about, given how the stearate gels.

Thank you for the following suggestion: 

"Might be actually more "sure" to dilute and mix a hundredfold your colour into pure oil, let it settle and then scoop the colourful sediment afterward, and filter pressure it. back to an oil colour. (surely even less worth the time spent on it, but possible)."

I would like to try this, however I couldn’t find any information on “filter pressuring," and so I do not know what is meant by this. Could you suggest some resources or adjacent search terms that I can use to find out more on the "filter pressuring" process?

Thanks!

Hello there,

Unless you already are a professional enough artist to notice such minute differences, I would advise you not to bother with this aspect at all.

Manufacturers use it to streamline the consistency and improve the stability of oil colours over long time. 

It still is (hopefully for good brands) a marginal additive in levels that wouldn't impair the qualities of painting (whatever it is suspected to impair). The main difference between artist grade and student grade oil colours is something along the line of 50% more pigment and more pricey pigments, more than a few % of this thickener or other fillers to compensate. So to some extent colour strength wise, why not, but whether how much this increase is worth it is yours to judge.

My main concern for abuse of stearate (Al or Mg) is more in a risk of delamination. But if you're painting on previous layers with reasonnable tooth, that's not much of a risk. If you search for the topic on this forum you'll find a few older discussions.

Aside for transparent colours that would be more likely to optically be affected by the presence of fillers, I doubt the difference would be that huge and thus worth the effort (and waste). Aluminium stearate is a white wax in pure form, but your few percent dissolved in linseed oil won't pale it down much a,d doubt you can wash that much your colour.

I cannot say whether aluminium stearate would migrate through the soaking of the oil.

Oils are a lot of things, among which aluminium stearate is probably not the most prone to migrate in chromatography like that.

Without true IR or mass spectrometre analysis to compare, it's only speculation that it goes.

I'd tend to think it's mostly the free and smaller molecules of the oil that migrate, not the heavier and thickened, where I'd personally speculate it stays.

Might be actually more "sure" to dilute and mix a hundredfold your colour into pure oil, let it settle and then scoop the colourful sediment afterward, and filter pressure it. back to an oil colour. (surely even less worth the time spent on it, but possible)

Beside I don't know what kind of contamination you get in exchange from the cardboard. Things migrate both ways, I'd be warry of that. For the video's results, unfortunately one person's testimony shouldn't be taken as scientifict fact. So I won't assess the colour strength results. Could be overstated or understated.

To this idea's credit, this allows the artist to control the consistency and oil content in new ways, especially leaner ways against using mediums and reducing the colour strength.

So despite all I said above, I wouldn't advise never to do that. 

I don't think there's much to gain but also there's not much of a risk doing so technically (so long your cardboard/absorbant substrate doesn't contaminate badly your oil). It might be a useful technique to the artist to control the oil content and consistency to some extent while keeping the pigment concentration high.

I'd still advise to use student grade paint for the ground and artist grade paint for the later details.

And not to mix brands so if something goes wrong, their support line can commit to help you safely. They can be shy about competitors products, they'll be more commited to help if you're "loyal".

Cheers and good paint.

Lussh

Hello there Ron,

I'm aware of some trends of varnishing the reverse side of the canvas to protect it from mould. That has fallen out of fashion a long time ago, but I doubt there's much to fear from that. To an extreme degree of the logic, you could technically prime, paint and varnish both sides of your canvas cloth after all.

An acrylic sizing won't absorb and retain humidity as much as a rabbit skin glue sizing (which does relax a lot). 

However acrylic gessos keep a porous surface which lets ambiant humidity pass through. Meaning the surface still breathes slightly, and can still rot in excessive humidity.

But if you want stiff "drum style" canvas, rabbit skin glue will be more efficient than the soft and souple acrylics for your sizing.

So if you want something drum style and tight, I'd advise rabbit skin glue gesso and varnish the back on a day when the air is dry.

Otherwise pure acrylic over mixed fibres cloth will surely breath less depending on humidity (can still develop some mould nonetheless), but I'd have other concerns for the longevity of plastic fibres and long terme adhesion of coats over it. (low van der walls adhesion, no porosity for the "sizing" or gesso to anchor itself either. It's painting on plastics literally)

Avoid the mistake of putting an acrylic gesso over a rabbit skin glue sizing. Further stress from "breathing" or retractation of next paintings can delaminate the acrylic rather easily and cleanly. Oil ground over rabbit skin glue is more advised.

Good luck.

Lussh

​Fellow artist's opinion.  It seems like something ​that's wrong, but I can find little logically against it.  Sizing the back solely with acrylic medium is sometimes advised against as the dried acrylic gell remains open to absoption of dirt, but one would think this less of a risk with acrylic gesso. ​The gesso is mildly porous to moisture, but stops rapid water absorption.  As it's not a complete blocker, it has less risk of creating a hidden unwanted hermetic mirco environment of mold.​​

Restorers would however likely resent its presence when repairing canvas tears as its an intervening layer to the broken fibers.  Reweaving would be almost impossible (though this is rarely done anyway with most canvases) edge gluing perhaps?  Or with a lop sided smile, just bridge layer strand fibers over the top as though the gesso isn't there.

As to stiffening I suppose the orthodox view would be to just put more layers on the right side.

Marc Kingsland.

​Thank you Koo for your extensive response. ! I've decided to proceed with the painting with the pinholes caused by my drawings tools. I do not work especially wet, and the holes have become more or less covered by the layers of tempera. It is encouraging that the likelyhood of SID is low in my case. I'll report back if there are any developments of note. All the best, until next time - eli​

​i understand what you mean, but not a good practice as acrylic is porous, so it doesnt block penetration at all. consider using polyester as your canvas, as it is inert to RH change. 

​​​Thanks for asking this Ron​.​

​johsan king​

I just checked my 5th edition, and I think those figures must be reversed in that example on page 63. Firstly it uses PB6 as an example, but there is no PB6. It's referring to PBk6 (Carbon black).

Carbon black absorbs much more oil than titanium white, so I'm thinking the 100wt in each listing must refer to the pigment rather than the oil, the same as the Just Paint article, then the figures coincide pretty for both Carbon Black and Titanium white..

PBk6 - Mayer 109-160wt/100wt - Golden 160wt/100wt
PW6 - Mayer 18-30wt/100wt - Golden 20wt/100wt

Ron Francis.

​big mark​

​Thanks for your comment. It seems I have to rethink my thoughts on Ralph Mayer. This book was revised in 1991, which is already 32 years ago, ouch! ;-)

Is there a book that can replace the Ralph Mayer? With charts and all?​

​I will be checking options, any advice on this matter would be gratefully appreciated* 

(Apologies, message got cut for some reason). 

​​Thank you so much again for the thorough information, Marc.

​Yes, the primer is universal, although I have been adviced by one member of Jackson's to not use that  primer before an oil based ground ​due to potential adhesion issues, I guess due to the primer's slight absorbency. So it's one or the other, apparently. ​​According to Natural Pigments, their Lead alkyd ground is designed to adhere to ACM (where I plan to paint), ​so I may have to test all options , although budget-wise that's a bit inconvenient due to their pricings. ​​

I will be checking options, and if ​


​​Study: The Influence of Pigments and Ion Migration on the Durability of Drying Oil and Alkyd Paints.  by Marion F Mecklenburg, Charles S Tumosa and Edward P Vicenzi. 2010.    

The lead white was in cold pressed linseed, not refined linseed, and the brittle lead white alkyd 29 years old.  The lead white alkyd wasn't a ground, but a Winsor and Newton Griffin alkyd colour.  The Griffin flake white is now discontinued.  

Marc.​

​I haven't tried the Lascaux acrylic primer, but if it's intended as a universal primer it SHOULD be good for what you intend.

I believe the smithsonian did some paint film tests on lead oil paints. I should state the study date and number and if I can found it easily I will quote it later.  I recall that the lead white alkyd was too hard after many years of aging, as was lead white made solely with litharge black oil.  Both prone to cracking, while the normal lead white in standard refined linseed was in what might be called a Goldilocks zone of not too hard, not too soft.  So without having personally tested the lead alkyd ground. I'd go with the lead oil ground.

Marc.​

​Thank you so much for your comment, Marc​. 

​Indeed, his statement seemed kinda strange, hence my interest in checking out the information in this forum. My idea then would be to apply one or two thin coats of lead ground on top of Lascaux Acrylic primer. It is slightly absorbent, good for preventing excessive sinking in, but I will have to test how well oil ground adheres to it. 

Apart from that, do you have any thoughts on using either a lead oil ground or a lead alkyd ground? I am looking for the most archival option, I don't know if one of the two is more desirable. 

Thank you again for your time. ​

​king khan​

​prince khan​

I'm not a conservator, merely well read on the s​ubject.

Sulphur (I'm not American.) is hardly a risk to lead white in most locations nowadays, and even when it was back in the smokey 19th century, it was mostly in the outdoors and open doored churches.  Some places with hot pools with rotten egg smell (that the locals become blind to.) have shown a recent effect with unvarnished or unglazed paint, but the effect is generally overstated with oil paint.  Watercolour lead white is another matter.  Without the binding oil this discolours more freely so no one, as much as I'm aware, makes it anymore.

As a completely covered ground layer it should be as close as one can get to being completely risk free.

Titanium is much more opaque than lead white, it is true, but not as strong a paint film as lead white.

Marc.​​

​I've used a roll of polyester sold at an arts supply.  And found for this particular canvas (other may vary) that it was best when sized first with an acrylic medium, then with two or three coats of acylic gesso finally with an oil ground on top of this.  Not to remove oil contact, but to stiffen the canvas which I judged it definately required.  This polyester was quite thirsty with the acrylic medium, but stiffened it up to a very high degree while still being flexible enough to roll.  One drawback I though was strike through to the stretcher.  So to solve this I would do this sizing pinned within a frame and after drying, tack around a stretcher to prime.  This thirstyness I mentioned put me off just using a alkyd ground.  As in a test, it soaked up so much of the vehicle that I feared it might now be underbound.  Though it appeared to have no adhesion problem.  Also it occured to one that this ground might increase in brittleness with time and the only support stiffness in this test sample was coming from the paint itself.

Marc.​

Hello there,

Generally speaking I'd be a little afraid of painting over plastics because if paints stick to it, they generally form a weaker bond than on other mineral/plant based surfaces, and they don't have the mechanical impregnation through the porous fibres since the polymer likely isn't.

Since you have less van-der-waals adhesion and no mechanical anchor for your paint, it's easier for your paint, whether it's acrylic or oil, to peel or flake out at some point.

Sizing won't be necessary as it means filling the fibres to protect them, giving them elasticity and providing a tooth for the next gesso layer.

The polyester is unlikely to rot, may not have the elasticity you'd appreciate with cloth sized with rabbit skin glue, and won't have the easiest adherence for the next layer. 

So sizing indeed is not required per se. A gesso  or ground first layer that completely wraps the fibres, going entirely around them thoroughly, I think would be a good thing to insure your paint won't flake afterward. (Give it an achor around the fibres instead of through them)

Alkyds generally have a better adhesion on plastics than acrylics, so I'd chose that. Oils directly I'm not sure, I don't know the differences in surface tension between them. I would still bet on alkyds though.

​If you want to do a nightmare test, just knife apply a bit of thick acrylic on your polyester, and try to peel it off once properly dry. Worth testing against thorough gesso or alkyd.

Good and safe paint to you.

Lussh

Thanks, Marc, for the detailed breakdown. 

I’ll be sure to do some more research before making any rash moves. I am actually just after a faster-drying ground option that is compatible with oil paint. It is not necessary that it be a verified, old masters’ style method; this for me is not important in and of itself. I just thought these above approaches, in allegedly being “old masters-inspired,” perhaps lent themselves to being a more reliable method/recipe (in terms of structural longevity).

A solution to my needs could be fully contemporary; I just wish for it to be tested and confirmed as fully compatible with oil paint, have low toxicity, and dry in a period shorter than one year (preferably much shorter)​

Maybe the answer is just to stick with the acrylic gesso. It hasn't failed me personally, but the more I read, the more I panic about potential future issues with any work that's oil on acrylic gesso. I have concerns that now I should allow for my acrylic gesso dry for at least one month, and up to four months due to shrinkage, and am experiencing slight despair that I hadn't known to wait that long a period with acrylic gesso before, with previous work, etc.

Hi Lussh.

Thanks for the response.

Do you then believe the second approach, with the alkyd resin, would be stable enough, if I waited 6 weeks between coats? Do the substantial cracking issues apply to both versions, or just the one sans alkyd?

If yes, what alkyd resin do you believe would be most stable for this use?


(Also: I know this isn't any real imitation of old masters' techniques  -- my interest here is just in the increased drying time and decreased toxicity.)

Thank you!

It's not too far from an early ​"old masters" ground, but not one of the better ones.  The highly transparent nature of the calcium carbonate can be prone to darkening agents.  Such as relining glues. Even the binding oil itself will display it's full dark yellowing.  

The National gallery of London​​ released a technical bulletin revealing that Titian used grounds like these and they darkened, resulting in the belief for centuries that he used dark brown grounds.  When actually he used a layer of either calcium carbonate or gypsum bound in linseed scraped across the weave to mostly flatten the surface. Followed by a thin layer of warm pale grey made of mostly lead white, with red lead and carbon black. 

Later old masters replaced the calcium carbonate with an ochre sometimes with a small addition of lead white as a first scraped layer.  Perhaps for this reason, or because it was less prone to cracking, they then followed this with a similar lead white warm grey layer.  When the displayed weave became more accepted later on, the ochre layer was foregone.  Using a transparent or pale light brown as a first scraped layer made sense as if lead lead white is used instead, the raised weave points can be obvious as darkish dots requiring further layers of lead white.  More layers than just using one over the flattened ochre layer, where the ochre and weave high points ghosts through more evenly to better visual effect.

Marc.​​

I was wanting to add stand oil as a medium in the intial layer, as I thought the paint layer might be underbound. Also the stand oil yellows less than the linseed oil. Thanks for the advice of not using any medium initially, only solvent.​

Hello there,

I think the old masters relied a little more on lead carbonate than calcium carbonate to ground their paintings.

Five days for a linseed oil without driers to dry is optimistic at best. And depending on the filler loading, it will crack badly later on. The alkyd would insure it some flexibility once dry and probably replaces the lead in that purpose.

Remember also  the fat over lean general rule. Meaning be dead sure it's fully dry before use and if you're using "just oil" in your ground, 5 days and 5 days drying time sound overly optimistic to me personally. Without driers I'd give it a month between each layer at least.

Good priming to you,

Lussh


Thank you so much for your detailed response. I will follow your suggestions to the fullest, to ensure the longevity of my work. The idea of "diluting the contaminant" with other non-dammar paint is a great idea, and i'll be sure to only utilize rigid paneling/wood (or, if I can find them, adequate metal sheets) in instances where I use these paints in said "diluted" mixture.

The wood locally available to me is: Lindin/Basswood, Pine, Beech, so hopefully one of these will work.

Thanks again!


Hi Lussh,

thanks for your comments. discoloration is not an issue for me as i never experience it and painting in oils doesnt get it affect anyway.

​what i concerns is in practice the water content in acrylic product wraps the wood, no matter it is called acrylic size, gloss medium or gesso, they all wrap the wood same way. so i not sure if they really seals the wood from water in following layer to wrap the wood further. 

And there many professionals had opposite saying, like one said wood had to be sealed before it can be applied any acrylic gesso ground. to seal it. however from Golden, they saying do not use any gloss medium under oil paints. 

so if we follow Golden's advice, can acrylic gesso seals the wood same as "size" that prevent water content from following layer to wrap the wood?

hope experts like you can help to clear out. much appreciated. 


Hello there,

The purpose of sealing the surface before painting isn't just a mechanical safety against the effects of humidity or condensation making it move, it's also to prevent a lot of colourful molecules from the natural surface (wood or cloth) from migrating through your pictural layer and staining it.

Golden has done extensive work on that aspect. I'd follow their advice. 

The issue with wood surfaces to paint on is that there are as many varieties as there are stars in the sky, each with its different risks or properties. Some might not require much precautions but as a rule of thumb, just seal them.

Acrylics in general are microporous but that varies depending on their polymer, formulation and drying conditions. This means that it will generally let humidity (gaz) flow through and the surface breathe, but will prevent water (liquid) from sipping through (with all it may carry back of tanins and stain from the surface). Gessos are meant to be more porous to give good 'tooth' to the next layer, so they are mechanically less effective as stain blockers.

The cheap option is to dilute slightly your gesso to give the first impregnation stain to the wood and when it's properly dry to go for the next layer. (and then a third to correct remaining defects and smooth it over). That may work depending on the wood kind, the quality of your gesso and the quality of your priming work.

Cheers and good painting,

Lussh


Hello there,

It's not exactly that dammar is poison, but like every other parameters it will affect the ageing in different ways. You're looking at the tip of the iceberg here.

​The first parameters for your paintings to last a hundred years are indeed colour wise the quality of the pigments and the quality of the linseed oil in which they're dispersed.

Dammar like any other soluble resin gives a faster touch-dry sensation to the layers, but in exchange diminishes the capacity for crosslinking and can in worst cases impede drying altogether. It can make the film more brittle in some cases as well. But 5% isn't the worst.

Don't expect your dry paint to be as impervious to solvents as it could be, but you should still expect it to dry to a good solidity without shattering in flakes.


The worst things to do, to wreck your painting chances to age well are actually less in the materials than they are in the painting process. to paint 2mm thick coat in one go and paint the next layer over as thick it when it's just touch dry, then varnish on top of that when it's just touch dry. There you can be sure it won't last long. Reverse that logic and paint thinly and give plenty of time for your layers to dry, that's the best you can do.

Respect the fat over lean rule as much as possible. Dilute your dammar "contaminated" colours with reliable drying colours from other brands (earth colours and phthalos). Don't worry too much about the little dammar resin in there.

And do triple check your painting is actually dry and reasonnably solvent impervious before you varnish it. Too many artists ruin their work and their longevity there ironically. You're better with a non varnished paint than a wrongly varnished one. Keep on the back of your painting some additional cards of the same substrate with the palettes leftovers sprayed on top to test your varnishes as well.

For reaching the hundred years milestone, again it's less about materials than it is about process. If your pigments are good, they may not be impervious to fire nonetheless. And a painting lasting centuries in a museum may not last a decade in the outdoors. So the key elements are not in what you paint with but how it's stored over time. You want to keep humidity and temperature as still as possible, avoid direct sunlight and unecessary handling. 

Paint over metal sheets, costly and heavy as hell (and don't recover from scratches) but it's more mechanically stable (less breathing movements) than wood or cloth. So the pictural layer on it will suffer less mechanical stress than it will on wood and even lesser than it will on cloth. If you settle for wood, treat it well. If you settle for cloth, invest in the better kinds and seal the back as well before painting.

Then stick to the back of your painting notes with instructions about the materials you used and process you used, times of drying and everything you can think off, especially about the varnish.

It's for the restorers who will come next and will bless your name for doing what too little artists do. Keeping reliable notes to help them rejuvenate your ageing painting and renew its varnish.

Cause unfortunately a truth of centuries old longevity in oil paintings is that last trick.

​Paint well,


Lussh


​​Hi, quick update: here in Spain neither tempered nor untempered hardboard exist, nobody in any main lumberyard​ here in Madrid knew what I was talking about, so seemingly I will have to stick to ACM for the asdhession tests and the large artworks I want to do, importing large hardboard panels from abroad is simply crazy and wouldn't be affordable. 

I will start testing adhesion in a Dibond plate I have got, crossing fingers.​

Kind regards, 

Jesus

Great, thank you.

Yes, it is the stabilizers and fillers that trouble me, for longevity. I wonder how they will behave after 60 years...

As for lightfastness, I am always certain to purchase tubes utilizing the most lightfast pigments available, and follow fat-over-lean, and other general rules. I hope things work out in the long run. As you say, mid-tier from reliable brands should be OK. I hope Van Gogh oils count as this.​

This with the dye potentially migrating through multiple layers of the work is troubling.

Perhaps I will just buy one yard, and see what happens. Although, might this migration occur in a decade or more, and not in a more immediate time frame? Maybe it would be best to abandon the project and stick with raw linen.

Thank you very much for your response, mkinsey.​

​there shouldnt be a specific ratio of right or wrong, the maximum you can dilute it is the limit the oil still crosslink to a film. if you dilute it too much, it doesnt form a film, and this ratio you will be able to observe toward light from its reflection. if you do this test, you will know the limit. 


but why you want even add oil in your initial layer? it shall be solvent only, otherwise it will soon be very fat when you build up layers. 


also, i donot even think it is a good idea to use stand oil for earlier layers, as the stand oil doesnt sink into beneath layer and result then remains underbond. so use regular linseed oil instead and in the later layer you can use stand oil. 

Hi Mkinsey,​

thanks again for your reply and based on what you said, for fabric, apply acrylic size before acrylic gesso provides additional benifit like stiffen the fabric.

but how about for tempered hardboard, will there any benefit of apply additional size before apply acrylic gesso? Or will be same effect?

also does the acrylic size you mentioned is a matte or gloss? because Golden alert of using gloss acrylic if for oil painting. 

thank you and really appreciate your help. ​


That's exactly the reason why I will try to find and test a tempered hardboard as you suggest. I am yet to find a place were to confirm availability and quality here, but at least for the sake of learning, It's worth the effort. It would though be a problem with larger panels (some paintings of mine are going to reach 2 meters, hence my interest on craddled ACM for the light weight, will have to weigh options in those scenarios). 

You actually have a great point with regards of the smaller than the support painting, hilarious how the fact a tiny part of the picture is going to be covered by ​the frame had completely skipped my mind. In that case, in fact, I am less worried on the margins even if painting towards the end (a couple cms would be of no importance for any of my pictures, so it can be both hidden by the frame or/and removed if damaged in the future). 

Gluing a canvas would indeed​ require a proper system/process to properly do it. However, my idea would be to use a conservation thermoset glue​, like Beba 371 or Jade. If I am correct, both can be activated again with heat, so any imprfection can be corrected, and can be separated from the support if necessary. I would never go for a permanent support, specially before the possible scenario you mentioned, having badly glued spots here and there. 

I will definitely check and test both options, and hope to find the best option and share it with you all. I am a bit obssesive in such topics, and want to make a final decission this year already. 

​​​Kind regards!

Hi Jesus,

​you are more than welcome and your concern is reasonable, however here is actually my thoughts. if you using tempered hardboard, you should not worry about long term adhesion of acrylic ground or your oil grounds. as it is still a wood but engineered one and wood is a proven substrate in history. 

and you can cradel it up to protect the corners, once it well protect, it is not easily to beak there. 

or another tip is you always paint smaller than the panel size, because when you frame it, the frame also covers a portion, and if you do so, you wont worry about any corner breakage and even break, it is easy to fix by wood work. 

i was also trying to glue canvas before, but i found problem of doing so. the glue or acrylic product is relatively too thin for the coarse side of fabric, so i found some area is unglued after a time, maybe got absorbed by the fabric, so it turns out a partial glued canvas. 

in addition, it is not really reversible as we think, because the glue is permenant actually.

so after these test, i end up painting directly on it. 

but plz do your own test and try all the options and maybe comeback here to share your experient result as well! 

looking forward! 


​Hi Mkinsey,

thanks for your answer, so you mean acrylic gesso had higher viscosity, lower strength, weaker bonding compared with acrylic size? which means if applied directly on substrate, will likely result a weak bonding unless a size is used first? 

as Golden no longer advice using gloss medium as size, do you mean there is another acrylic size that is not gloss, which is safe to be used for oil painting preparation? 

i am very confused now. appreciate any help to clear things up. thanks. 

​​​Hi. thank you both for your replies. 

To the first reply (apologies, I can't see your name), my interest in a mounted canvas is twofold:

First, I am concerned about directly painting on the ACM panel as I am dubious on how good the adhesrence of gesso and paint will be over time. In the resources PDFs XIM-UMA or DTM bonding primers are adviced to apply after sanding the polyester coating of the panel to improved adherence of the posterior gesso layers. Apart from not liking the fact of using industrial ​products not meant for fine arts, I can't get them here in Europe, so that's another problem added. I can get Zinsser Bulls Eye, but still, industrial product, SID or failure of the primer could happen in the future. 

Maybe that's not a problem, or ​perhaps I can safely paint on an ACM after sanding the polyester coating and applying a few layers of acrylic gesso, but I worry about the lifespan of that process. 

The second reason is reversibility: both hardboards and ACM panels suffer from the same, the concern of breaking corners and the impossibility to fix them. So having the painting resting in a canvas mounted to the panels seems to be a good precaution, just in case. I certainly agree with you though, the extra steps of adding the molding paste are tedious, but unless I am wrong in my previous statements, these are my reasons. Of course, anyone is welcome to chime in and tell me otherwise, I am open minded, and the simplest approach would be the most desirable, in the end.

Again, thank you so much for the information, Greg. I have been told by Michael Skalka himself to size and then apply a few acrylic gesso coats to prepare the fabric before any oil application. How would this process be best adapted in case of adding the molding paste in the recipe, after the sizing? 

I understand then that the molding paste is also an archival product. Regarding acrylic gessos, I have read good reviews of Lascaux, still have to get some to try. Any other molding paste and gesso you would recommend to check?

​Thank you so much for your time, I appreciate a lot all the information I am learning here.

​Hi Watson,

thanks for your info, so chemically the gloss size acrylic medium is exact same as acrylic gesso, so gesso can be applied as size by itself?

then for first layer, do we have to dilute it maximum allowed for penetration inside the substrate? 

thanks. 

​​

hi Jesús,

​i am very courious that since you already used hard sustrate, then why you still want to glue fabric canvas but to even out fabric texture, rather than painting on hard substrate directly? 

usually people who prefer to paint on fabric is because they like the wavy pattern that grabs their paint in the way they like the friction and it holds up thicker paints. 

but i see you want to even out the texture using thick acrylic medium. first if you paint directly on hard substrate like your metal panel or tempered hardboard, it is already a smooth surface without wavy pattern. second, the key for anything is to apply thinnly, if it is thick, it will had risk of cracking, so to even out the wavy pattern, probably is time consuming and i am not really see any benefit of doing so. ​

Hello Greg, thank you so much for your thorough explanation. I had never heard of Molding Pastes before, but they definitely seem to be the solution to my concern. 

May I ask, for the sake of learning, what is the difference between them and acrylic gesso? I imagine that they are safe and equally archival compared to acrylic gessos, but I want to specifically ask on their compositional difference. 

​As for the fabrics, I have already spotted a website from UK which sells Fredrix's 100% polyester canvases, which is a relief being located in Europe. I will try to get some soon and start testing them, can't wait. ​

Kind regards,

Jesús

Hello Greg, thank you so much for your reply. I am glad to read that both ACM and tempered hardboard are considered to be good alternatives if coated with acrylic gesso and then oil ground. After mulling it over, I think both are almost equal in terms of stability. I think I will have to give them both a try to make my final decission. 

Another question about the fabric weave being visible, I am curious, would it be a good approach then to cover the polyester fabric with 3-4 layers of acrylic gesso (with in between layers sanding) to cover the fabric's pattern, and then applying the oil ground on that flatter acrylic surface, in case I go for the polyester glued ACM? I would love to do so, as if there in one thing I am sure is that I can't stand the fabric weave being visible in the actual final painting. If so, i think I would try to go for this option first, as the weight of a craddled tempered hardboard would be quite troublesome to deal with for 1,5-2 meters paintings.

​Also, this question is for anyone who may know. I have already received a few samples of Sunbrella fabric (recommended by Ross Merrill as possibly the best option for painting on ppolyester), but I am still doubtful on how to remove the hidrophobic coating applied on it. It would be interesting to remove it to enhance acrylic gesso adhesion. I asked Sunbrella, but they couldn't tell me a specific way to get rid of it. So far I have just figured out this is a fluorocarbon finish​. If anyone can chime in on how to safely remove it, I would be truly grateful.  

Kind regards, 

Jesus

Hi, no need to worry about oil on acrylic as it is proven of good adhesion. i mean even you apply oil ground, then what you put underneath is still acrylic sealer, unless you use rabbit skin glue. 

​i had seen delamination of coating on metal support in some cases. but anyway, they are designed for outdoor display, which doesnt really have requirement of hundered years achivability. but i mean it could work for you, just feel it is very expensive for large size. 

so i think get tempered hardboard from your lumberyard, you will get a cheap but achival surface after you apply acrylic gesso on top. 

​These a fair points indeed. I will test it, definitelly.

​About the lead oil ground, I think maybe, no matter the support, it would be an option to apply it in thin layers as you mentioned on top of an acrylic gesso. I am not too fond of painting directly with oils on acrylic gesso, the feel of it is not something I like too much. Would it be a sound practice?

hi, Lead oil ground is a traditional type of ground, with the lead that makes it dries fast, lean and relative flexible. however it is still has the same property of drying oil, which is less flexible compared to acrylic and suspect of cracking during age, where acrylic will not crack over time. and when you make it thick, it will be fatter, oilly and more suspect of cracking. usually oil ground is applied in relatively thinner layer. 

some people still prefer lead oil ground but i think acrylic is a good alternative of modern material. 

you are correct to read people concerns about tempered hardboard, and i actually did a test myself that apply acrylic gesso on tempered, and using a knife to scrap it off, and found it always peels off a thin wood layer off, which means it is very good adhesion. 

​untempered is hard to find in store because its structure is not very rigid compared with tempered one. and since it is tempered, it is less subject to environmental changes. and of course, you best to apply isolation layer all around, maybe a varnish or wood sealant like shellac. i personally using the same picture varnish all around the wood panel. 

take your own test and you should love it. ​


​About the fabric you are correct, although my plan was to cover the patter with a slightly thick lead oil ground on top of the acrilyc gesso. 

I can ask in a wood store I know here. Also, I have read the tempered ones are less desirable than untempered, as the former accepts more readily the acrylic gesso, bonds better, according a few opinions in this forum. 

​Still wood's sensitivity to RH, temperature and bugs are something that concern me...

hi, i not sure why you want to glue polyester fabric on any substrate? it is okay to glue but my concern is the fabric pattern on polyester is too mechanical that these regular pattern shows on the picture looks not natural. also i experienced a cracking of polyester canvas before. 

​and for tempered hardboard, you no need to buy from art store, it is commonly available construction material in lumberyard, so you just go there can buy a very large size and cut to what you need. it is exactly the samething you will order from art store but charges you 20X more! 



r​

​Hi, thank you again for your reply. I understand your statement. I have read a lot of information regarding that substarte, and some people still are doubtful on that substrate as well. It could be possible, though, to glue the polyester fabric onto a tempered hardboard.

The main problem then is tempered or untempered hardboard availabilty here in Spain, as MDF is mainly the only wood substrate of this kind I have been able to find so far. 

I can find them through Jackson's, which ships here, but also a problemartic is size: there are artworks I want to create that would be 2 meters in size, which would be too heavy for a wooden panel to not suffer planar deformation, an also even harder to find. I don't know if Ampersand creates, and much less ships, such panel sizes. 

​Ahh if only a truly archival, synthetic support were readily available... 

hi, the thing is for metal panel you had to worry the adhesion of your polyester coating. even it is manufacture do that for you, it still has risk of being delamination due to the natural of metal surface. think about how easy a car paint can peel off from its metal. 

and these product had not developed for archival purpose to use in mind, so not see a good reason to use them. 

also, metal will expand much more than oil layer, that will result a cracking, even your polyest is inert to RH. but metal is sensitive to temp change. 

but wood substrate had been used in hisotry and is proven to last. and engineered wood trying to solve common wood issue. 

​and tempered hardboard is porous to accept bonding to acrylic gesso, that i had take a test to apply acrylic gesso on top and use a knife to scrap it, and found it aheres wood layer off, so it means it really bonds. 




Hi, ​thank you for your answer. The first concern you mentioned i​s indeed the one that made me rule out anodized aluminum to begin with. 

If using ACM panels my take would be glueing them to a metalic craddle to prevent bending, and using an ACM already coated with a polyester fabric, to promote adhession. If glueing a top fabric, it would be a polyester one, which being synthetic doesn't react to changes in RH, preventing the oil painting layers from being exposed to potential damage. Having read a lot of opinions in this forum in favour of this solution, I have got truly interested in this option, hence my seek for advice. 

​I eitherway want to try an Ampersand tempered gessoboard (a brand for tempered hardboard) as well, but I think an Alucobond coated with polyester could be a good option just as Mr. Merrill stated back in the early 2000s.

  Hi Jesus, i am not sure why you really interest to try metal panel that i actually had concerns with. the issue is for metal its expansion rate is very high, that may result of cracking in temp. changes. also the adhesion of ground to metal may be weak, because the surface is not porous for best adhesion. 

plus it is only a very thin metal sheet, glues on a core, usually a plastic type, so i think it had risk of delamination or bending. and it could be very heavy. 

so what i think a better alternative is tempered hardboard, which is engineered wood that immerged in oil for tempering, result of a stronger structure. 

and i also not like gluing canvas on substrate, the reason is because with moisture fluation the canvas will experence dimension changes, that may lead to cracking.

​so it would be best to directly acrylic gesso on tempered hardboard, it will result a very simple structure. 


​johsan​

​yes​

Thank you for your timely response.

My apologies for not being more clear, both varnishes are peeling, that is to say, the Paraloid b72 isolating varnish did not adhere properly. ​This tells me your second hypothesis is correct, when drying the umber pigments released some smaller particles and it became difficult to adhere to, though this doesn't explain why it peels from the lead white as quickly as anywhere else. In your comment, you mentioned, "wiping the painting" before varnishing. Could you please be more specific? This can't mean oiling out, I'm assuming you mean with solvent to wet the surface a bit? In this case which type of solvent should I use? I did nothing of the sort because this is in fact the first time I've ever heard of this technique, rest assured I will never forget the need to do this now. I only passed over the paintings well with a tack cloth to remove any dust. In fact, as I now think back, I was very surprised by how quickly the Paraloid varnish dried. I'd never used one before and it dried to touch dry in as little as 3-4 minutes. Which would mean it never got the chance to wet out the painting and adhere. Perhaps it would be better to use a laropal 81 varnish as an isolating coat if it has a longer open time. I will contact the manufacturer about how to extend the drying time and see what they recommend.

As regards the white spirit for removal of the varnish, will the odorless mineral spirit work, or is there something more specific that I need to look for when choosing a solvent to remove the failed varnish?

Thank you so much for your help. It is very much appreciated.


Kind regards,

Jody West

Hello there,

I'm sorry for your troubles, I would hate seeing the same things occur.

In these complex situations it's hard to pinpoint exactly one single element that went wrong.

Here are my best clues to explore nonetheless, for this current issue and onward:

It's not clear whether it's both layers that peeled or only the second one. Most comments below assuming it's just the second one:

The first varnish sealed the painting and gave a non absorbant surface ("toothless"). The second varnish and its solvents couldn't solubilise it enough to fuse, nor had surface asperities to mechanically hold. 

So the Senellier one gently was glued to the smooth paraloid like even gouache can stick to glass, and dried without real adherence. Now it peels as if it was a vinylic emulsion. (I'm surprised by how soft it is for a varnish) Maybe this varnish doens't have much "stickiness" for itself. Hard to judge from this alone.

My hypothesis there is the first varnish did too good a job against the second varnish. There might not be anything wrong with either of them nor your painting.

First thing is, using materials from multiple suppliers makes it harder for them to safely advise you or support you. If all your products from colours to varnishes came from the same supplier, and you called their support line, then they'd ought to give you some of their time to investigate proper. They know their own products, but they can never know what their competitors do or use. So you'd put either company in a difficult position asking for advice about a combination of products.

Drying time are good. Was there a lot of humidity in the air at the second layer? Did you wipe the surface with alcohol before applying the second layer? Maybe there was some thin mist or dusts that prevented the good adhesion of the second layer.

​Playing with solvents available, WS to dissolve the paraloid and turpentine to dissolve the Sennelier gloss varnish, you can probably retry something with just these two, by applying a mix of the two between the two. However I wouldn't advise this if you can avoid it.

I've lost my technical file that compares the solvent affinities of the different grades of paraloid, but assuming this one is more soluble in aliphatic solvents and less in partially aromatic ones like turpentine, it's possible turpentine will solubilise only the Sennelier varnish, allowing its removal without damaging your paraloid varnish below. Test in hidden corners first though, don't take my word for it. Otherwise, you'd probably be best removing everything carefully with white spirit before revarnishing. Tough job unfortunately.

For the future, as thorough as it is, the use of two layers varnishes might not be absolutely needed for your purpose? You might want to reconsider this approach with the idea that for art restorers, the simpler might be better.

Another tip in complex systems might be to have smaller test swatches for the next paintings. Like a small separate canvas corner or board you keep on the side and paint a little (randomly) with the same colours or palette leftovers as you paint the main work. Same products at the same time, same drying time. (safe surface too ideally)

That way you have a side "same painting" to test your varnishes and systems on, before going for the real deal. Varnishing being often the critical moment with yours here being an unfortunate example, having a test swatch of your paintings onward might save you some dread and white hair.

Now if it's both layers that peeled off together, it means it's the paraloid one that didn't have enough tooth and stick.

One possible reason also hinted at, it's as oils dry, they release some smaller particles and dust. If you didn't wipe it out before varnishing, you've possibly essentially varnished over a thin layer of dusts that didn't bind to anything. It would depend on the colours and the mediums used heavily. However if it's the same everywhere no matter the colours below, it's probably between the varnishes instead.

Good luck and cheers,

Lussh

​emmaa​

Thx for your time. It seems I have to elaborate some.

​I am doing this with some students at an art academy. I am using synthetic mid-quality ultramarine (I think it's from Kremer) and Lukas pure bleached linseed oil. We do this on glass plates with a 150 grain and have glass​​ mullers.

I have done this multiple times, but each time this colour goes bad.

Time of gringing doesn't seem to be of importance. It happens as soon as student work with it, but one student has been grinding away for 3 days, and still it would be runny or too stiff. And like I said: when adding pigment, it turned even more runny an stringy.​

I use Al stearate because this is used in the pauntmaking industry to make paint shorter. Linseed with bees wax, the same: it is known to make paint shorter.

Other colours student make are doing fine. I use a professional grindometer to check, and of course the consitency should be good.

Could it be that perhaps this batch of ultramarine is particuraly difficult to make? Perhaps I should buy another batch.... 

Last resort may be my small three roll mill, that might do the trick, but it isn't as fun for the students, and cleaning is a bitch.

Hi Lussh, you make another good point regards film flexibility, these info never released from supplier as far as i know, so if you may share common materials in terms film flexibility?

​also, i am not sure why people saying flexible on top, inflexible on bottom (suppose each layer dry enough in between), i mean the canvas can bend inward and outward, which may require more flexible layer on top or more flexible layer at bottom depend on bending direction? 

Hi there,

Phthalo pigments aren't fast drying in the way I would have put it but I see the intended meaning. 

They're not natural driers and they don't impair the drying much either to the best of my knowledge.

but because they are particularly powerful, your oil colour with phthalo pigments only has a few % of pigment (in weight). They're among the colours with the less pigment overall (because super strong colorant).

So it's more that their colours have mechanically more oil (and not too much filler to avoid staining the transparency). 

So they're very fat in that they have a lot of oil mechanically against other colours, and they're fast drying because... they have more driers added.

The difference however against fast drying colours that are lean like iron oxides, is the flexibility of the dry film.The leaner the colour, the less flexible its thick film will be. Phthalos are good since they will give you a flexible film. Iron oxides will need the care of more oil if you layer them above. But it's about their flexiblity more than their drying time.

If you allow each layer to dry fully, your concern is the flexibility of the film to go crescendo. Your phthalos won't be an issue no matter where you put them (so long they have time to dry through). 

Your lower layers of lean colours neither. Your mid or top layers of lean colours might. Give them som oil yes, "some" for mid layers, "a little more than some" for the top layers.

I hope this helps, 

Cheers,

Lussh

Hello there,

I know it's trendy to make our own colours/cosmetics at home but this is an illustration of why industries have taken that job against homecooking. 

This pigment is difficult and there are too many parametres to control, 90% of which you forgot to mention here. Making it impossible to give you a correct answer out of the blue (sorry for the pun).

What's the quality of your pigment? Synthetic or natural? Grind? Surface treatment? How much do you grind it and by which process? Time for mixing and strength of grinding? Time of wetting and time of grinding? Wetting agent kind? Oil kind(s) and quality? What PVC are you aiming for? Why Al stearate and not coconut oil? (it's a joke). Why beeswax ? (not a joke).

This pigment is notoriously difficult, because it's not as inert as most mineral pigments which are less reactive oxides. As good looking as it is.

Depending on the billion parametres above and forgotten, from the physical properties and chemistry of all your materials and the mechanical processes used to manufacture your colour, it will turn softer or harder over time.

Best way to go is to keep it as simple as possible:

Thickened linseed oil, pigment, grind.

Just from the ratio of the only two raw materials and all the differences in time and strength or method of grind, you can still make it go stringy or stiffer depending on what you do. So best to keep it simple as that on paper, and fine tune your % and your process. 

As much as raw materials are the visible part of the colour, the process of manufacture is the hidden part of the iceberg that will make all the repeatability and reliability (and quality) of your colour.

It's like cooking in that on the absurd end: if one just throws all the ingredients into a bowl and throws it in the oven, the cake won't be good. So for the normal perspective, your process of manufacture is at least as important as the materials and ratios you use.

Keep it simplest, steady your process, and good luck.

Cheers,

Lussh

Hi Lussh​,

thanks for your reply. according to Michael Harding, the Phathalo group color is very fast drying as well as very fat, so seems to me it is very hard to use as it lays property at 2 ends. but using other blue is fine to me, because it is overwelming color to me anyway. 

but for PR 101 Venetian Red or transparent oxides are kind of very useful color to me. 

According to MH, Venetian Red is lean but dries fast, so probably mix it with little oil to slow it for color layering like fresh tone. 

but for transparent oxide, which are fat due to small lake alike particle size but dries fast, so it is another example of hard to use color:

​because the transparency is great for glazing, then if used on top layer, its drying speed is fastest, then as you said, had to wait like month to do this layering.

but if want to use it in middle layer, i feel its is hard to fine tune it, because if you want to slow its speed, you add more oil to it, but since itself is pretty fat, then adding oil will make it very fat, but it is still in middle layer, so means the following layer will be even more fat, i am afraid then it will beeding up very quickly.





Ha, you would need more patient with this pigment. it is known of hard to make, that each manufacture use different addictive to make the paint. so it is hard to know nor they will tell you how to make it. but just add surfactant or beeswax and slower grinding will help.

BTW, if you make this color, why donot you make from the real stone? that is easier to make. Sythetic one is not. 

also, had you tried PV29, which is ultramarin violet, does that behave same like sythetic PB29 or easy to form paint without addctives? 


​altabbuny​

Hello there,

It's not a simple answer since it depends of many parametres from your painting technique and materials.

The simplest answer I can give is: just a li'll more oil than the previous layer and plenty more time to dry than the previous layer. 

The thinner the layers the better, thickness is one foe of oil drying. ​

If slightly more oil to the layer means you have to bring mostly pure oil, paint thinly, avoid mediums with resin/varnish in them and wait for a really long time afterward.

Cheers and do check the other question next to this one, you two had similar concerns.

Lussh

Hello there,

The safeest dry like for varnishing would be one year give or take. Nobody is that patient obviously. As much as the subsequent layers allow for some air to permeates through and allow the drying, it becomes slower or even impaired depending on what you put on top (varnishes or resins for instance).

Hard dry means "reaching the plateau of mechanical properties (hardness and flexiblity or lack of) over time". 

Oil painting as it dries first becomes touch dry "rapidly", and then grows over time into its reticulated film until reaching a plateau of properties (or gradually falling back as it ages even). Hard dry means the polymer is formed and mostly won't react anymore.

How to differentiate from touch dry, it's the tip often given before varnishing: wet a cloth with some solvent and wipe your colour. if it's still very solvent soluble and comes off easily, it's not fully hard dry yet. 

The problem you raise is, this is not a binary property like wet switching to fully dry. It's a gradual progress that varies from pigment to pigment, from oil to oil, from drying condition, amount of resin mixed in painting mediums, thickness of layers and time between, and so on. So many parametres that all you can do is chose how much patience you're willing to give and the wet cloth will always be able to remove some oil colour regardless.

The more parametres you control the higher your chances, but you'll never be 100% sure.

However it's still a logarithmic increase of properties, (or exponential decrease), meaning between waiting one day and one week the change is huge, but between one month and one year, the properties change is marginal. So don't beat yourself up for just waiting "just" a few weeks between layers, it's plenty good already. Aside the amount of colour that solvent can pick up, you'll never really know for sure.


​Very fat and very fast drying is possible, although I don't have a specific colour coming to mind.

From what you're saying, yes, thin it for the first layers, fatten it for the last, and go for ratios in between for the middle layers and you'll be fine.

If you also give plenty of time for your layers to dry before adding another (reaching enough of a hard dry), it's less of a concern.

Cheers and patience,

Lussh

Hi Lussh, thanks for your input, then how do we know the proper oil amount to add that can slow it down effectively well not over dose oil as well?​​

  hi Lussh, thanks for your answer, i have few questions:

1, how dry would be the safe dry? i remember George from Natrual pigment says "hard dry" but i have no place to find what means by hard dry. and how to differentiate from touch dry? to me, what i can see is the phase that no longer pass through paint to finger when touched, will this be considered "hard dry"?

2, according to Michael Harding, some color is both very fat and very fast dry, so is maybe easier to thin it a lot for initial layer or add lot of oil to slow it down for final layer, but how about use in middle layer? or should we just avoid using this kind of complex color in middle layer?


Hi there,

The art suppliers have some product for that which I'm not sure are avaiable on the market.

The best option is to use a plastic film like packaging wrap and to press it against the surface of your oil or alkyd to seal it off entirely. The less surface has access to air, the less it will dry. Like 'wrapping' it without bubbles.

​Cheers,

Lussh

Hello James,

Sorry for your experience. I sympathise with your pain trully. I've had some indigo hue coats that also turned into play-dough more than a real film in the past.

I won't have all the answers but some elements that might help.

First thing is sadly, sealing the non drying painting with retouching varnish. It will become touch dry but never really dry and turn permanently soluble. Meaning the varnishing or unvarnishing could destroy your work.

- First two questions to ask yourself are whether you gave enough time for each layer to dry, and whether you're not painting too thick layers.

- Liquin in humid conditions can take a significant while to dry properly. It's magnified if you paint a milimetre thickly. 

- What was the quality of your dammar resin? Dammar dries ever so slowly and keeps that tackiness. It may not be the best choice for sealing the ground. 

- And turpentine ? Cheap turpentine like cheap white spirit will ruin everything with greasy mineral compounds. 

- Ivory black not drying is a common issue. Don't use too much of it pure nor in thick layers. Try the others or mixes of transparent colours.

As for repairing the work, I recall trying to soak the undrying parts with solvent with added driers mixed in. It kinda helped but wasn't a panacea overall.

That being said, if you give up entirely on crosslinking and solvents resilience, infusing your layers with retouching varnish will at least solidify everything in place.

Another tip that isn't an all-cure either: put your painting to face sunlight and warmth for a month.

Sometimes the drying process can be kicked into progress with the help of direct sunlight. 

I'm afraid your work might never be able to properly and fully dry but good luck still, and hopefully easier with the next.

Lussh

Yep.

And giving plenty of time for the slow drying white to dry beforehand will also help a lot.

Cheers,

Lussh

Hello there,

Fat over lean is easily simplified as slower drying over faster drying. It's more about making sure you have over time more flexible over less flexible. The main parameters are thus logically the drying rate of the colour and the amount of oil used AND the time you allow for drying between each layer.

By reasoning backward, if you want your paint to crack, use a slow drying colour with lots of oils, and when it's barely touch dry, layer it with a lean and fast drying colour.

Back in proper order that means the longer you wait for each layer to dry, the lower the chances you take to break the rule unknowingly.

The main idea then in my humble opinion wouldn't be to just paint with colours straight from the tube, but rather to gradually shift your "fat" content from layer to layer you paint to increase the likely flexibility of the overall cake film.

Meaning thin your painting mediums with spirits first, and gradually shift your spirit to oil ratio toward more oil on each layer you go. The longer you wait between each layer the better.

One other detail, if art suppliers don't generally mention the drying time of their oils, if you ask their support team, they should give them to you. At least what the average time they'd expect. 

PVC or oil content is a thing but art suppliers add driers as well. between that and pigments drying the films differently and with varying flexibility makes it all the more harder to accutely define everything.

Mixing your colours with painting mediums eases out and softens the differences. Waiting patiently for each layer to dry reduces the risks as well. And finally painting thinly also helps reducing the risks.

If you need to put a fast dry colour over a slow drying one: give the time for the slow one to dry, and give plenty of oil to your fast drying one. Simply.


Cheers and good patience to you,

Lussh


Hello Sam,

The main purpose of varnish, aside streamlining the aesthetic, is to give a protective skin to it, against chemical attacks from the air and light, and physical attacks like bumps, nails and so on.

Any permanent varnish or even a layer of gloss medium does that. (Varnish are harder and better than mediums though).

A removable varnish is a level above in purpose, since painting can't regenerate their protective varnish skin like animals. Having it removable means it can be renewed by an art restorer in some years when it has aged, been damaged and no longer protects well the painting underneath. It's a sensitive work only professionals should do.

The idea of a permanent layer followed by a removable layer is to protect the painting from the side effects from work of changing the removable varnish (since it involves dissolving it away)

It's a good higher level of protection on paper, but it has some drawbacks too. It makes it harder for restorers to correct the painting layer below if that's where the damage is occuring. And since a permanent varnish is permanent, if it doesn't age well and yellows a lot, well, tough for the restorer again.

It's up to you to set the balance between immediate solidity (permanent) versus long term repairability (removable).

As for products availables in Australia, I'd be surprised if the major brands like Liquitex, Daler or Winsor don't have shops were they sell both varnishes. Online retailers otherwise I'd think could ship them.

​Good luck and cheers,

Lussh,


​Personally I find 6oz a little on the light side.  My own limits for it would be around 24'' x 18''.  Much s​​maller than this I'd be gluing it to a panel, but that's just me.  Many artists have painted on worse.

Marc.​​

​6oz should be normal for canvas, and not see anything wrong with your preparation as long as you purchase high quality material. ​

  Hi Koo,

​thanks for your reply and actually i do believe the panel sold by art material supply is exactly the same sold in lumber yard, as the art company is very small one that does not have the capability to produce their own. however it is also true that the panels in lumber yard is not stored with the intention for art use, and therefore you can always see the edge is damaged or fraying. so if you want to do little work then it will be a much cheaper option to get from there.

as to the plywood panel, when i see the top sheet sometimes peels off on the shelf in store due to poor storage maybe, i am scared if such a really long lasting option for art usage? 

​Hiya - I'm having a similar issue to what you've described in terms of "tackiness" on the surface - I believe it's because I used a medium that has a little too much stand oil in it to oil out a few areas, and the stand oil is refusing to dry. I'm wondering if you ever figured out how to accelerate the drying? I'm not able to varnish the piece yet despite leaving it for several months as the tackiness refuses to go away, so I'm hoping someone has some answers!

i am not reaally like plywood or MDF panel, as they reply on glue to hold those fiber and glue is for sure going to degrade over time.

so i think from years of research, at least in my opinion that tempered hardboard is a best choice. it is most rigid mechanically as a panel and even it is oil tempered, we just need a small preparation to make it acceptible to gesso ground. what i did is using 99% achohol with scotch brite wiping the surface, then apply acrylic gesso thinned by 1:1 water for initial layer. the idea to thin with water is to let it sink into the panel as a "sizing" layer that bonds following less diluted gesso, maybe add 10%-25% water to those layer.

​i only use high quality Lascaux acrylic gesso and not using acrylic gloss medium/sizing or rabbit skin, traditional gesso, all these had their disadvantage in terms of longevity. so simple formular works best.

it is just my practice, maybe Koo can help to comment more here? thanks. 

​Video is helpfull too, my MDF pile seams to be high density MDF.

Testing is in progress.

Damir P.​

Thank you Koo, I hoped you will respond as gesso to rigid support practice expert.

There's a lot of information here and I hope I'll get back on working prior six month period. 

Ten years ago I did test on RSG strength by glueing two MDF sheets together and then pulling them. Test proved good because MDF's break tearing to the core each other. Later I ordered truck with huge sheets from another seller and didn't pay attention to support much until now. The first thing to do for me now is testing again, because all you say I can confirm, regarding nomenclature. Nomenclature is even worst because I live in Croatia and material names are different - not in english. Try to find that way what is what.

There is one concept that is helpfull in this problem - reversible sizes.

M.D Gottsegen writes: "It is sometimes preferable for a film-forming material such as a size or varnish to be reversible-that is, to be easily removable by dissolving it with its original diluent." We know conservators can transfer painting with ground to another support should this be neccessary in future.  Do you know how they do this for chalk glue gesso, with hot water? It's not so important to me to know how exactly but I would use man made wood boards with more confidence if conservators would aprove they can transfer paintings on gesso. 

Just to mentione, I read that Botticelli's "The Birth of Venus" is supported by canvas on Uffizi web - was that original support or transfered painting, if someone knows?

Damir Pusic.


Yeah, i hope George can comment here as well. My question would be most time we are painting with color that dries faster on top of color that dries average to slow speed. 

for instance, like in underpainting if you use titanium white, which is an average to slow dry color, then probabaly will mix some earth colors which dries very fast on top, then wont you really see a problem if you paint straight from tube in this way? so i want to ask you guys what you will do in this case?

Maybe:

1, you purchase similar colors in fast, medium and slow dry color catagory and place them in order?


Or, 2, you add oil to faster dry color to make it dries slower if you want to place it over average-slow dry color?


Or, 3, you completely not care drying speed and use whatever color needed in any order?

​hope to get some insights in the community. thanks. 

​how about using tempered hardboard? i know some companies who offer that as a substrate for your application, maybe you can search those out than MDF board? ​

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​ i also looked that youtube section and believe the host is George, maybe he can chat in here to explain out any confusion when people not agree with what said? ​

​​Thanks, Greg, will do.

​​​Sorry, I forgot to specify GOLDEN'S GAC 400. Also there is a typo in the title, it should be "multi layered collage".

i am interest in this topic, any expert may help to input?

​Thank you for your response Lussh.​

In fact by "true gesso" I mean the traditional  skin glue/ whiting material that is a traditional ground for tempera, gouache, etc mediums. So I do not think there is any issue with adhesion long term. FWIW, paintings I did decades ago are stable and seemingly ok. 

More to the point is this newer way I am dealing with gouache and the liberal use of gum arabic that is in question. Your points on GA are good ones and hopefully further discussion here might get into the chemistry a bit more. The adhesion of layers with differing amounts of paint, GA, and water is most at issue for me. Also the long term stability of the GA glaze, it's brittleness, etc, as Lussh brings up.

The sugar issue is a good one to ponder. It's "food" after all.The ptgs will be sealed upon completion with a solvent based matte UV varnish, after some experiments as to its affect on the color relationships, as per other threads.

As per Q2 does anyone know if there is meaningful difference between Food grade GA and artist grade? If I go forward with this method, pending other input of course, cheaper is better.


Thanks again!

Yes, i donot agree that it is no brainer kind of practice that you paint in layers straight from tube, unless you use exact color each layer, then you are painting walls:) 

in practice, some paint contains more oil than other, even you paint straight from tube that putting leaner one on top of fatter one is not good.

​more importantly, here not even consider different drying speed of each oil, which is another very complicated concept that judging fatter or leaner, if you place straight tube a faster drying color over a slower one, then it will be another big issue agin. 

however most manufacture not really help to clear out which color dries faster than the other, so it becomes another confusing concept for artist besides fat over lean. 


I donot agree when people say if painting straight from tube will no need observation of fat over lean, unless referes to alla prima.

​my point is besides judging which paint is fatter or leaner (depend on their PVC), you had to see which dries faster or slower (assumed all in same oil binder) and there are many outliers that has very low PVC while dries very fast. 

i donot really see any manufacture really help to understand this, but there are many colors, for instance some earth color has clay that absorbs more oil but dries very fast, Phathlo is another example, as well as the small pigment size transparent iron oxide group. 

​Maybe late for this discussion, while i do agree with PVC point of view regard fatter or leaner oil paint, which is based on how much the pigment absorbs oil to form a workable paste. however i do want to point out it not really covers fast vs slow drying thing and i think this is more important as we had to lay slower drying color on top of faster one. generally a fatter color tend dries slower than leaner one, however there are many exceptions with outlier that a paint can be fat as well as dries very fast, so with these paints will be extremely careful and due to the number of these is a lot, i highly suggest people aware of this! ​

Hello Damir,

It's technically correct, both these structures of TiO2 have photocatalytic activity (with slightly different band gap). It's a technology used to clean water for instance, by easing the oxydation of everything organic under the right light over pannels with these untreated crystals.

However as Greg mentions, commercially used TiO2 as a pigment is nearly exclusively surface treated to avoid that 'chalking' defect and ease dispersion.

Also it's not specific to oils. That is true in any media. I've mostly seen that in cheap acrylic wall paints. 

And as far as opaque white pigments go, I think we should keep using it in oil and everywhere else personally.

Cheers,

​Lussh

Hello there,

It depends a little on how you paint, meaning what kind of mediums or added solvents, oil and resins you add to your oil colours as you paint.

If you tend to do ground washes with lots of solvent and oil like you would do watercolour washes on paper, then sure the absorbancy or non absorbancy of your gesso will make all the difference in result.

If you paint in less extreme technique than that, you shouldn't worry too much about either aspects.

I'm honestly not sure what's the point of a non-absorbent gesso (or what's the difference with a gloss medium) but if you mix regular acrylics with your normal gesso you can also make the porosity vary at will.

1 - Yes, mechanically if it's smoother it has less 'tooth' and therefore less adherence. Oil colours are not epoxy glues.

But they do have some stick-to-it-iveness still chemically, so unless your smooth gesso means raincoat-slippery-smooth smooth, oil will still stick reasonnably. Not the best but not as bad as if you were painting on a plastic wrapp. You can start mixing some alkyd to increase the chemical adherence possibly. Or sand your surface a little.

2 - Yes, but also not that much of an issue in itself. Fat over lean is mainly about avoid rigid over flexible that would cause cracking. That generally translates as 'fat over lean' or slower drying over faster drying. So long you give plenty of time to your layers to dry and keep increasing the amount of oil to solvent ratio in your layers to be double-sure, you're following the rule, no matter where you start or what's in your tube.

Easiest way to go if you're working on a few layers is to keep your painting mediums ready in order. Ground medium with perhaps 90% solvent 10% drying oil and 1 week to dry. 1st layer medium with 80% and 20% and 2 weeks to dry, 2nd layer with 70% to 30% and 3 weeks to dry.

If you end with pure oil as medium, you'll need to paint rather thin layers and give them a few month to dry.

​Cheers,


Lussh

Hello there,

 

Please consider my answer as merely a single opinion.

 

First I would have some concern for the longevity of painting with gouache and gum Arabic over true gesso.

Assuming 'true gesso' means acrylic or alkyd ground, it can have absorbency similar to paper in painting, but I fear the adhesion and brittleness of gum Arabic on these materials.

It would be prone to leave them more than it would with natural (paper) fibres. But it's a matter of degree, gum Arabic is brittle no matter what. I would tend to think it better diffuses and adheres with natural fibres than plastic porosity.

So I would advise to look for a paper/cardboard/wood board with the texture and porosity you like, rather than building something more meant for oils and modern binders.

(Or to switch to oils diluted in retouching varnish as your painting medium. To make it work as similarly as possible, but with stronger binder and resin resilience. That is a different technique entirely though)

 

Q1: Solubility isn't instantaneous, especially with cold water, it takes some mechanical action. Layers will bound to each other as they dissolve, mix and dry together, however it's still sugar/crystal brittleness once dry. So they bond alright, but they will crack and flake also no matter what.

 

Q2: All the gum Arabic in solution you buy will have some biocidal product to preserve it from mould/yeast. Companies will just not mention it always (yet).

Gum Arabic is a sugar in water, you should really think of it as sweet food like other carbohydrates. So left unchecked it's a near ideal culture broth that will grow all sorts of things.

The alternative for you could be to buy gum Arabic in a dehydrated resin chunk form. No biocide inside then, you just prepare what you need by dissolving it in water and using it before it spoils.

It might be cheaper.

As for preserving your own solution, bleach wouldn't work long term. It only cleans water at the moment but not preserve it long term. You would need some food preservative.

What would be wise is to use boiled water for your own solution (sterilise it thus without changing its chemistry).

 

Good luck and cheers,

 

Lussh​

​​Just wondering if there are any thoughts on my Qs above? Any ideas, even if just a partial answer, would get me started.

Thanks!

i just search out this post and the info is helpful. So when Ivan saying Lascaux gesso is more "toothy" , does that mean Lascaux one feels coarse/gritty than Golden? I know liquitex is pretty gritty, anyone who had used of them can give a reply? thanks. 


Hi Marc,

thanks for your comments, yes oil ground should be lean, but seems we never know how lean it is from then can. Maybe it is best to use for direct painting style? as i think paint out of tube shall be fatter than oil ground.

but for layered painting, i am concerned about if the oil ground is the leanest layer, as the first layer always applied very diluted and suppose to be absorbed oil into the ground. and then the oil from latter layer will sink into this layer to provide enough bonding to it. so debonding will not be an issue in this systemetic way. 

so maybe absorbent acrylic gesso is most suitbale for layered painting and non-absorbent or oil ground is best for direct painting?


​Fellow Artist not MITRA. What is this oil ground?  Is it a particular thing or just oil ground in general?

1, Oil grounds are lean, or should be.  They should not dry to a high gloss.  You shouldn't in my opinion have any layer "highly diluted" (if that dilution is merely a large amount volatile thinner) on a oil ground, or part of any layer really.  perhaps maybe this might be more forgivable as a first layer on a highly absorbant acrylic gesso.  But you must understand high dilution with solvent can risk breaking​ down the attachment with the oil medium.​

2, yes should be if the ground is well made.  However extreme deformation of the surface with aged paint can cause areas of delamination.  There comes a point where something has to give. Acrylic gesso seems to perform well in tests.

3, Acrylic gesso if well made does not have the same problems as layers of oil paint on standard acrylic paint.  Personally I like to have a layer, or many, of acrylic gesso between any acrylic size and my oil paint.  Others may judge differently.

4, Yes.  In my own limited tests it seems to fall between titanium oil grounds and lead white oil grounds.  With lead white being the best.  Zinc white that is part of any oil ground has tested the worst even if it does contain lead white.

Marc.

Hi Brian, thanks for your comments. my question actually about long term stability, so may you or your team happen to know even we see a successful adhesion of acrylic gesso on tempered hardboad now, say passed adhesion test, then will in the long term:

1, the oil migrate out that negatively affect adhesion?

2, the oil dries brittle thus the panels become brittle?

thanks. 


HI Koo,

thanks again for your insights, i am actually thinking how about do a sizing layer which adheres well on "oily" surface while also adheres well on acrylic gesso layer, that like a middle man? Do you know if apply non-acrylic based, like PVA sizing maybe on the tempered harboard first then acrylic gesso, would that works better than apply acrylic based gesso directly? 

Dear Koo,

thanks for your info, whn you say the adhesion of acrylic gesso over temepred hardboard is less than untempered, do you conduct any adhesion test or if you heard anyone performed such test? 

or if any perticular acrylic resin performs better on tempered board? because i see from Liquitex saying their gesso shall not apply on tempered hardboard. ​

thanks. 

​i think is should be considered as archival for water miserble oil as the manufacture should perfomed accelerated age testing to proof the surfactant not negatively affect anything. however based on my own testing, as the surfactant is not part of drying formula, it may result a sticky feel film compared w/ traditional oil. and the WMO film remains more flexible/ soft as well, it may be an advantage as oil will brittle over time, if the presence of surfactant of WMO can make oil film more flexible over time, then it is a big plus.

​i heard when Golden test oil cracking over gloss medium, someone mentioned if using WMO over gloss medium, it doesnt crack as traditional oil would, so maybe indicate above flexibility statement. 

hope material scicentist can give more insights! 


Yeah, it is pretty confusing as on Liquitex website, it clearly saying “ Compressed hardboards such as Masonite, are not recommended as permanent supports...tempered Masonite contains oily substances that may affect paint adhesion over time​” (https://www.liquitex.com/us/tips/surface-preparation/).

so what i am afraid is even we degrease the surface oil residue, there still oil residue inside the board, so over time, those oil may migrate out and resulting acrylic gesso flakes off? not sure if this is a cornern or not, so hopefully a conservator may help to give more techniqual insights! ​​

"balled cloth wetted"   Wetted with mineral spirits that is.​​

Not a conservator and these views may not be held by them.

!,  I'd lightly 'degrease' the surface with a balled cloth wetted on the contact area first. Perhaps mere reported hearsay, but it is claimed most temperered hardwood has less linseed oil sprayed on it now than used to be the norm in years past. so probably not enough to push off acrylic gesso should the linseed even still be wet.  However should you by some rare chance have a hardboard with an obviously wet greasy linseed surface, don't use it.

2,  I don't believe this to be a true concern with hardboard.

3,  Lignin is very mildly volatile.  Its not a rapid process, I don't know.  Maybe after two hundred years it becomes more like MDF?

​4, Beyond using wood less prone to warping itself I don't know. Glue, again not my area.  Delamination will sometimes occur on what are often the finer surface fibres. ruining the smooth surface on that side, but not usually greatly affecting the overall strength of the board.

5,  I think varnishing the back is a good idea, but I can see little advantage to using an easily removable one like Gamvar.

Marc.​

​​may depend how you frame it, but i donot prefer that personally as adding cradle is not any big deal, if you can find source of straight and good quality wood bars. and i would brace it then apply varnish on back side for sealing, i willl not gesso the backside first before cradle, of course it is easier to do that way, but the glue is not to the panel surface but to the gesso layer, which may flake off. but you can do a test and see how you like it to be done, more a personally style i think. ​

It is fiberboard (MDF). Planar deformation occur, but once I prime reverse side of panel then it becomes straight again. 

I went to frame shop and being told uncradled panel can be framed easily. Also I remember one painter was placing large uncradled gesso panels in strong frames that would hold it straight - he claims.

Could frame be substitution for cradling in archival meaning? 

Damir P.​

​i think best to brace before you priming. what kind of wood panel you use? i tried tempered hardboard and will bow after gesso priming unless braced first. ​

​Thank you for these details and the video link. From the Golden information it appears any issues would show quickly (within 48 hours) and it's interesting the video comments SID shouldn't be a concern for most artists, primarily those working in light colours / thin layers. My concern was more SID based (even though I work in dark and thick layers of acrylic paint) as a lot of online info says you always HAVE to seal wooden panels BUT it also appears most of the online info refers directly to the information from Golden, though omitting that it's not always necessary. I also notice lots of online info says you have to seal the back of panels and supports with gloss medium too (Golden largely recommended) but Golden actually warn against this due to the tacky surface of the artists' gloss medium. Thanks again for the helpful information.​

Hi again,

Thank you to all these coments. 

Now I know that alcohol is not hydrocarbon and if I try fountain pen in future I will wash it imediatelly after use. 

Ruling pen would be nice to try too.

I just learned that  Kremer is using shellac soap too. I also red that to do shellac soap in one part of process it require use of alcohol (ethanol). Does this ethanol used in making shellac soap evaporates from final ink binder? 

This reminds me on making beeswax soap as is natural resin too.

Damir P.


​I'm just an artist, but if used on a rigid service would Cassein work?​

Thank you so very much, everyone, for all your information and input. I definitely got a lot out of the discussion about varnishes. (I use the brand for oils developed by the manufacturer in conjuction with the National Gallery of Art.) 

Gillian mentioned the time of year -- the exhibit is from the begining of August through the third week in October -- only six months away. I would love to have time to conduct a lightfastness test for my various media, but I'm not sure the tight time table will afford me that opportunity. The windows in this space are really a floor-to-ceiling "window wall", so light even comes streaming onto the floor. I've been told that the light and cast shadows are less dramatic in the summer due to the trees leafing out.

I was considering charcoals under museum glass as one option for the show, but deep appreciation to Lussh who reminded me that papers can also be affected by sunlight, not just pigments. My charcoals are on what is supposed to be high quality watercolor paper, (and another large work is on an unbleached mulberry paper) but the UV light test sounds like a quick and easy way to determine if my papers would be light sensitive. 

This is not the space I was expecting to be assigned at this institution, so to make creative lemonade out of these lemons, currently I am considering a pivot to a long, site-specific, mixed media participatory piece where lightfastness would not be as much of a concern, and a series of small paintings (likely oil) where I would install inidividual small light-blocking curtains directly in front of each piece as part of the concept for the series -- exploring the idea of what is hidden. Any thoughts on what type of curtain material might be best for such a project under these lighting conditions? I've seen semi-sheer gallery curtains before in museum settings, or I could go with something opaque, which might best fit the theme. 

Many thanks,

Amy

Hello there,

It's one of the bad sides of zinc oxide pigment. It reacts with the fatty acids of the oils to create soaps that act thus like non absorbant / anti-sticky surface for the next layers and cause in the end delamination. (amongst other issues...)

So it's a risky process to attempt in oil paintings since it's playing on defects.

Varnish unfortunately can mean 'painting medium' in some places and times, so I wouldn't attempt theorising what that meant there.

A way I would suggest would be to create your own painting medium with a load of dissolved beeswax inside. Using it in the last layers of your painting to 'wax' the parts you want to repel oil with it. But I would advocate it's more risks than it's worth for your painting.

I wish you a nice day,

Lussh


Hello there,

It's always tricky to tell, so please consider this to be merely one opinion. I'll be looking forward to reading what others will think and say of this.

That appears to be common oil film ageing wastes.

The oils reticulate with oxygen creating a thermoset polymer, but the chemical reactions do give byproducts, smaller molecules that just stay there or migrate around.

Alkyds and varnishes are no exceptions, smaller bits and molecules eventually come off as they degrade.

That much amount I'm used to see on polyesters put on super alkaline substrates (a rookie mistake), which causes the polymer to be broken down rapidly into such white dust. 

So what you show could indicate an unlucky reaction that increased the breaking down of one polymer on the surface of your varnish or painting.

It's like your surface has been (chemically) sanded: it made it go mat and left the dust behind.

If the painting and colour don't seem damaged and no colour comes out when you rub a cloth, that's my bet.

I think Winsor & Newton has a cleaning mixture to help remove these kinds of dust from dry oil painting, but do start with simply a microfibre cloth with soapy lukewarm water to remove that dust. Then you're good to change the varnish.

If the painting and colour do come off surprisingly easily when you start rubbing your fingers or a wet cloth on it, then it's a much deeper concern and would be best not to try cleaning but bring to a professional art restorer.

I wish you a nice day,

Lussh


Hello there,

There are a few things to consider.

UV exposure is the worst but direct sunlight isn't the best either.

Most professional artist colours have their lightfastness rating stated and you know what they are, that's most of it already safe. The producers might not be able to officially guarantee nothing will change one bit on your case, but sticking to the best grade colours, avoiding fugitive fluorescent ones or dye based inks; you will increase your chances.

Also keep a keen eye on the quality of your paper, poor ones can yellow as fast as blue writing ink can fade by your window.

If your paper becomes bright and bluish under a UV light, it has optical brightener that will fade fast.

If you have a lot of time before the exhibition, I'd suggest you to do a real test:

Prepare swatches of graded washes of your intended colours on small cards (on the same paper or substrate), place a cover on top of half the swatch and put them in the real conditions, for as long as possible.

It's also because fading and colour decay is the result of a system of humidity/light/temperature. So the same light exposure but in different conditions of temperature or humidity can give drastically different results.

So as much as you can, having palette-cards to expose in advance can help you learn what to expect or which colours to scratch off.

But again, if you already know what ASTM lightfastness rating is, you already have little to worry about.

I wish you a nice day,

Lussh


Hello Carson,

You raise a few good things to discuss. My answer won't be sufficient in itself, I'll also look forward to reading what others say.

First is yes, it's best to give a good quality sizing and gesso, first to prevent wood tanins and colourful molecules from migrating into your paint, and too much of your paint to sip into the wood, chemically rotting it.

Protection against warping and (mould)-rotting is best assured from earlier proper drying and treatment (in low/high pressure chambers). Your sizing and gesso won't prevent much warping and rotting that would come from the back side of the wood exposed to too much humidity. This is also true for textiles.

One issue with hardware stores products is they are more wild than artist products. You might find good materials but are also more likely to be disappointed in ten years when things go wrong. They don't need to have the quality artist brands put into it and are less likely to be able to support you and conservators when troubles arise.

Sealing with them, you have arguably more risks to get bad migrations into the paint and delamination over time. Hard to say unfortunately, it's a gamble.

Gac100 is surely a good product with fair competition I'm confident. You might want to try other big brands see if you get more bang for your buck. Do avoid mixing two brands however, since it's hard for one company to support when you use products of two (or more) different companies.

They don't list the raw materials on the label because US/EU laws don't enforce the requirement (yet) to write down the INCI ingredient, like in food or cosmetics products. That might come some day... 

And you're likely to still be disappointed. Because INCI wise, the spectrum of 'Acrylate Copolymer / carbomer' is infinite. So it's not to hide that it's bad, it's just that it won't tell you much anyway about the quality. Their INCI list would be something like: 'Water, Carbomer, Carbomer, Carbomer, glycerine, sodium hydroxide, benzoisothiazolinone'

I'd trust and stick with one of either Daler-Rowney, Golden, Lefranc et bourgeois, Liquitex, Royal Talens, Winsor & Newton, for the choice of long-term reliable polymers in their acrylic primers. Not DIY stores. But I don't know which is most cost effective among them.

The isolation coat is an arguably good trend, to my understanding:

Plus side is, it's far safer to replace the top (final) varnish since you won't damage the pictural layer.

Con side is, it's far harder to repair the pictural layer if something goes wrong in it (or goes in from behind because the primer was poor quality).

You don't need to dilute it, it's just a first varnish that doesn't dissolve in the same solvent as the top one (and keeps enough flexibility of course). I think Golden and Liquitex offer the two kinds. I don't know for the other brands.

I wish you a nice day,

Lussh


Hello Brain,

Thank you for your time and for helping me out. I will definitely do what your said, but a doubt came to mind when I read your answer.  You mentioned the idea of there being a gap between the linen and the panel.  My linen is simply resting on the panel and im assuming this doesnt count as a gap.  Could this lack of space be creating the bubbles?   


​Thank ​you for your input!

Hello Peter,

Nothing sounds ominous in what you're saying. It's obviously safer for your health avoiding sanding lead carbonate dusts. It's also very good you operate in thin layers with time to dry independantly.

Just a wonder, depending on the size of works you do, why not considering wooden pannels? They're easier to get smooth, if you don't mind losing the bounce of the cloth.

There's also options of metallic pannels, with obvious drawbacks.

If the canvases are already primed with acrylic I'd prefer using acrylic gessos, but the difference between PVA and Acrylates is rather thin to my understanding.
People with more restauration experience might comment on delamination risks if any.

Cheers,

Lussh​

Hello,

For the first point I think it's somewhat incorrect.

The flexibility is to accomodate the movements of the surface when it can move (essentially canvases) and accordingly the flexibility of each layer of paint below. It's more about all moving together the same than the inherent changes of the lower layers.

(Of course if you paint milimeters thick coats that would become true as well.)

Second point is a likely hypothesis. The thicker the (overall) layer of paint, the harder it is to get thorough drying in the core. Same as putting too thick a coat straight.


Thirs point is also quite likely. Although the evolution of weight doesn't reflect the flexibility of the painting directly. That's unfortunately not correlated that way. The flexibility (when dried) will come first from the oils used, then the pigments, and then the painting mediums used.

Between that and the few% involved of weight change/volume shifts, I would advise to focus on drying times/rate first.

Cheers,

Lussh (should have signed before)

The need for flexibility in the top layer​​ is to accommodate for the expansion or contraction of the lower paint layer, depending upon whether or not the lower layer is gaining mass or losing it again.  (Recognizing that some of the loss in mass is due to evaporation of solvent in the paint layer).  Correct?


As the upper layer is cutting off direct access of oxygen to the lower layer, the mass of the lower layer is not changing (drying) as quickly as before when it was alone.  Correct?


If you were to graph the mass of the two separate layers out, with mass on the y axis and time on the x axis, the appearance of the latter layer would be almost like an echo of the former layer.   Whatever the lower layer does, the upper layer must be "rubbery" enough to grasp the lower one over many years or else crack, split, or delaminate.   Correct? 

Hello Richard,

My understanding is similar to yours. So overall I would say 'yes'. 

However I would amend that it takes longer than a few days to go beyond the main peaks of changes. 

A few weeks to reach maximum weight, then a longer logarithmic decrease to a plateau 'in general'. (Depending on the oils and pigments). So ideally at least a month to have most changes behind.

The concern of more flexible over less flexible to avoid cracking generally means to put slower drying fresher coats over faster (already) drying ones. More than volumic espansion or shrink (which would be just a few % at most), it's the drying time and rates differences that will cause cracking of the top coats.

So yes, but it's more about drying time than volume changes.

Cheers,


Hello Richard,

Some points are a little subjective and dependant on context.

With the understanding you're planning to paint on a rigid surface pannel primed with acrylic:

1. Not painting on canvas or souple surface, the flexibility change is of little importance.

However depending whether you're mixing paints or making your own, be aware safflower oil used in Titanium whites can make them far slower drying than a genuine lead white would be. So if you're just intending to make a white ground, be careful.

2. Opacity of Lead white is closer to titanium (than zinc) so the opacity change upon ratio is fairly linear and not a huge thing. Drying-wise, lead compounds are strong driers. I would expect a bigger difference on core drying time.

3. and 4. To avoid a misunderstanding, I would differenciate strength/flexibility of film and good film formation (siccativation or crosslinking). The former is more important for 'living' surfaces as you're already clearly aware. On a metal pannel, it's less of a concern, you could paint with egg tempera and don't expect cracks.

The later film formation aspect means how much of a continuous 'thermoset' polymer the film becomes, becoming resilient to solvents and harder to damage. It's a progressive attribute of drying. If you want something to last longer, the better your drying goes the more resilient it will become.

It's more for the longevity and resiliency overall, regardless of surface. 

I hope it will help a little.

First time on the forum so apologies for the rookie mistakes I might do.

Cheers,


​Thanks Greg. I'd come to pretty much the same conclusions and will try adding a new layer of varnish or isolation coat. It's annoying as it is supposed to be removable, but I guess the good thing with acrylics is you have more options (like another isolation coat layer) than you do with oils.​

I've also now tried rubbing on the varnish with isopropyl alcohol (70%) to no effect.

​Any more ideas? :/

​Just an update, I've bought some Ammonia and tried that as described (it's very strong smelling indeed!) and it had no effect at all on the varnish (or the acrylic paint).

At this point I'm wondering if somehow in the manufacturing the acrylic varnish ended up becoming just normal acrylic which is why it got removed with acetone?​

Firstly I alway use backing boards of some type. So thumbs up to that.

This is just me, but I would, IF ANYTHING, just give general suggestion about oil painting care to the gallery owner. (Taking care not to be sound condescending. And let's face it they've probably had to deal with more damaged paintings than you.) What is true for zinc white oil paint care is also mostly true for all oil paint. ( Just to many lesser degrees.)  Sadly most oil paintings for the last century, zinc white use is the default.  So what I'm cautioning about is leading the gallery owners to believe that these painting of yours are more fragile than the norm.  Which they aren't.

Fellow artist,  Marc.​​

To Moderator Answer (brian baade)

Thank you so much for your answer. It’s so appreciated. I will definitely make sure to tell the gallery to tell the collectors to keep them in a stable environment and humidity.

I will also look into backing board to the paintings. That is a great prevention idea.

I will definitely never use zinc again, it is too nerve wracking.

Again, thank you so much, it so appreciated.

​​Thank you, Gillian. I'll be sure to pass this info on.

​*or could I bring them to a conservation expert and could they do something to prevent cracking in this case?
(I read about preventive facing of the whole paint surface with adhesives with good penetration properties like synthetic polymers, but as an artist I don't know how to do this) Thank you again​

​​Thanks Greg

​Thanks for the additional observations, Marc.

Peggy​

​I'd take it to an expert, or possibly email your local city art museum for them to look at.  There might well be someone willing to look at a new find.  However don't call it tempura as that's a style of japanese battered deep frying.  It's tempera (with an e.) or egg tempera.

Marc.​

Thank you very much.

​Thank you Greg! That is really helpful. I will try that and see how it goes.​

When able to, I gain fabric samples to test for sizing and priming.  ( I'm often surpised by the result. Weaves that I thought would work I find unappealing after coating.)  I still have most of these. The GAC 200 I notice has greater penetration than just acrylic gesso.  Size strike through is almost complete on some.  Where as acrylic gesso is merely a few widely spaced pin pricks.  GAC 200 just soaks in more, and in doing so stiffens it. I should add that I like to pressure spray my linen flat on the line outside to remove any dissolvable production sizing first. I've been using up my large 4 or 5 litre (we use metric here) bottle GAC 200 perhaps to then just use more layers of gesso. GAC 200 needs a higher setting temp than gesso and perhaps the notion of just keep it simple, but now I wonder at the wisdom of possibly getting rid of it.  Re your hardboard panel's problem, I can't scratch this off any of my linen samples.   I would though question the use of this alone on canvas as the direct point of contact with oil paint.  It seems logical that oil paint will stick better to acrylic gesso than to any GAC or unpigmented acrylic medium.

Marc.​​

Thank you Marc and Greg for your responses.  Sorry I didn't sign my first comment about the stiffness of 4-5 coats of acrylic gesso - I'm new to this forum.

Marc, the linen I used is medium/heavy (about like my Levi jeans) and tightly woven.  There was almost no strick-through from scraping on the first 2 layers of gesso.  However, it is very flexible.

Greg. to make sure I understand you, I should trowel on molding paste over gesso - in other words, a coat (or 2?) of gesso, then molding paste, then more gesso if desired?  While looking for information re: using molding paste to prime canvas, some site said not to apply molding paste directly to canvas (but I've seen lots of contradictory information on different sites).  Should molding paste not be applied directly to canvas?

This might be of interest to you - about 5 years ago I looked for the latest advice on priming hardboard.  Per info on Golden's and Gamblin's sites, I made 2 test boards: one using Golden GAC 100 and Acrylic Gesso; and one using Gamblin PVA + their Oil Painting Ground, which is an alkyd (on both I applied 2 coats of each with the recommended drying time between each coat).  I let each board dry for 1 week (recommended time), then did a "scratch test" using the pointed butt end of my palette knife.  Both boards failed.  The priming on both pretty easily scratched off to reveal the hardboard below.  I then tested gesso alone on hardboard, which didn't scratch off (which is the way I had always primed hardboard).  It appeared to me the acrylic "sizes" caused the gesso not to adhere very well.  I no longer have the board with GAC 100 and gesso, but I still have the one with PVA and Gamblin Oil Painting Ground.  Today I tried the scratch test on it to see if there was any change - there wasn't, it still scratched off.  For that reason I'd be reluctant to use any GAC or PVA under gesso for priming.  (However, canvas, because of its texture, may give enough adhesion between GACs or PVA and gesso, and if I tried the same test using rabbit skin glue and oil primer on hardboard - what used to be the standard for priming linen for oil painting - it might scratch off as well).  Any thoughts on that?

Peggy​

​Sorry, that should be  "A test of this would be to see if it rolls with ease remarkably more tightly, primed side OUT rather than IN.." * 

Or to put it another way it seems much stiffer to roll against the paint layer

*A slightly clumsy sentence, and it doesn't help if I get my intentions about face.​

Marc.​

I've recently found a variable within the nature of fabrics theselves.  Well of course there are different starting weights and stiffness, but in using GAC 200 some absorbed this to vastly different effects.  One fabric regarded the application as ittle more than a layer of gesso or two, while another left it with thick cardboard like stiffness.

Regarding the use of Golden's molding paste.  Off the top of my head I might suppose that it contains solid material that retains form better than acrylic gesso.  So supposing this; troweled into the weave it would resist pressure and movement, if only from the side of the primed face.  (A test of this would be to see if it rolls with ease remarkably more tightly primed side in rather than out.  This shouldn't be done on a finished work.  Which should, if ever, be rolled paint side out.)  I would hope the moulding paste resists deformation to both directions, but it's just a possibilty that occurs to me.

I await for someone to refute everything I've said. LOL.

Fellow artist, Marc​​

Regarding the stiffness of 4-5 coats of acrylic gesso, ​I recently make tests of priming linen canvas with Golden acrylic gesso for oil painting.  I tested both 4 coats and 6 coats (the first 2 coats were scraped on, the next ones brushed on).  The test canvas pieces are extremely flexible - much more so than I was expecting.  It is MUCH more flexible than preprimed linen I've used in the past.  That makes me very nervous about using only acrylic gesso to prime canvas for an oil painting that will be on stretched canvas about 30" x 40".  Someone from Golden's Product Use Support suggested adding molding paste to the priming.  Is that sound advice?  If it is, would it be better to use molding paste as a separate layer, or mix it with the gesso?  Would it make the surface more absorbent (which I don't want)?  Does anyone have any other advice about a way to stiffen the canvan more?  ​

Thank you Brian. ​

Thanks for your reply. Reasurance about the materials is good to have.

Marc.​​

Well I suppose Greg Watson has already answered my question.  The only point of deviation I reason would be if the acrylic gesso was far more absorbent than standard and allowed the oil to soak through to the linen.​​

So for oil painting the use of an acrylic size, say GAC 200, isn't any better for stiffening or sealing than just adding another few coats of acrylic gesso?

Marc.​​

​​Thank you, Greg. Much appreciated.

​​Thank you, Brian. I read about this in Golden's Just Paint newsletter, in an article entitled "Revisiting Oils Over Acrylics," by Greg Watson, dated April 26, 2022.

​​I realize my question is ambiguous. I mean that Golden advises to add oil to the oil paint layer if underpainting with acrylic colors, not to the acrylic layer. Sorry for any confusion.

Hello Brian,

thanks for the quick reply. No worries, I appreciate your input!

Aside from problems that might arise during cleaning, let's say the paintings develop issues, what problems can theoretically be caused by a not thoroughly dried acrylic bottom layer, or an underbound bottom layer? Until doing some research in this forum I had been of the naive opinion that if very thin, underbound layers are not left uncovered, but "sealed" by subsequent layers, they won't be an issue. Now I got the impression it's more complicated than that and covering them isn't a guarantee, but I still don't fully understand all the issues that can be caused by underbound layers. Do they threaten the adhesion of subsequent layers, or is it an issue with unbound pigment rising to the surface?

Also, do you have a comment on using watercolor under oils? In my research I found that sometimes, but not always, it was suggested they be sealed before putting oils on top, and when it was suggested there was never a reason given for why that is necessary.

Thank you!​

From the general colour of blueprints and the age of these, I'd say the pigment used is prussian blue.  I wouldn't say that water couldn't form a tide mark (from say a spill)  A q-tip less so, but I couldn't personally recommend it.

I'm a vistor here.  The direct people of MITRA can't give out advice on restoration.

Marc.​​

Thank you. And then how would one go about removing a natural resin varnish that covers a work done in tempera/distemper?​

​Just added 4 pics of the vase.  Sorry that I hadn't done this before!  ​

​Any ideas out there?  Thanks.​

​Hello! I have been doing lots of reading/research in this area over the last few months, so thought I might chime in. I have spoken with Tad Spurgeon, author of The Living Craft, about the Arches Oil Paper, and he seems pretty convinced that the sizing they use on that paper is methyl cellulose. 

I have also myself done a series of sizing tests on both Arches and Fabriano watercolour paper using methyl cellulose, and so far, results seem to indicate that two coats of the size on the Arches 300gsm watercolour (HP) paper prevents seepage through to the back. However, bear in mind I use oil stick exclusively, rather than oil paint. Specifically, I've been using the Sennelier oil stick. Still, I have been testing solid blocks of colour on the sized paper and it seems to hold up well.




Thanks,

I had no idea about that. I will be reading more on coatings surface tensions in general.

I decided to use TG to further cut absorbency before oil layers.​ To stay in historic fashion.

DamirP.

Thanks on this precise questions Koo. Actually under "first glue size atop it" I meant following layer structure; 

1. traditional gesso, 

2. TG impasto (yolk:linseed oil =1:1 and diluted with water), 

3. glue size

4. pure oil layers.

Could this be a problem, if so why? 

The reason I come up to this is becouse I used to paint oil on half-chalk ground (glue and linseed ground) so it seems similar, instead of glue now is the yolk, but maybe I overlooked something? Maybe it's safest to go with Paraloid B72 in number 3, althought glue size is easier for me to handle. 


Regarding adherence problems I'm thinking the same. I didn't have anything between 20+ and 150 microns so I'll perhaps try that in future. In this painting imasto TG is aplied in linear movements covering max 5 to 8% of total gesso ground surface area. All layers atop this TG impasto will be conected to gesso ground and should hold it. I know this is not perfect.

DamirP.


Thank you guys for your answers! I guess I'll go with the PVA option.

​To clarify, so far I used GAC 200 for sizing, and PVA for gluing the canvas to the panel. So, now basically I'm going to swap the GAC 200 for the same PVA adhesive I use for gluing.

​Regards,

Peter

​As a fellow artist what I'd do with this problem, is have a single thin layer of acrylic gesso between the GAC and the oil ground.  The GAC sizes the linen, the gesso will stick to this, to which the following one or two layers of oil ground will adhere.

It may not be pure oil ground, but it would function as one.  You've already accepted the use of acrylic resin anyway.  The further use of another acrylic product solves any issue this presents.

Marc.​

Thanks Koo,

  Althought I thought 1,6mm imapsto height would not suit my purpose it actually does, even smaller than that. I did 1,2mm tempera grassa (TG) imasto strokes and after oil painted on top of them with opaque paint (pigments) they are fairlly visible. 

  One observation I would like to share is that I used very grity filler for impasto i.e, marble dust with particle size distribution 150 - 300μm. When I tried calcite with 20μm average size TG imapsto, globally aplied oil layer would not stick well attop impasto but did only at gesso. I am not surprised that grity filler provided beter drag, but was expecting better results with "more usual" one. 

TG impasto was​​ a bit dusty, becouse I used smaller quentities of oil/yolk binder to pigment/filler i.e, above cPVC. First glue size attop it and second oil layers would fix it, I guess.


P.S. If this works well I have no need to investigate acrilycs at Golden.

DamirP.

Brian, ​

Thanks for gesso/distemper/acryl ground clarrification.

Could tempera grassa be painted in one impasto stroke i.e, put down with spathula? If yes, that would be advantage over gesso impasto for me. 

Have I understood correctly: the isolating coat on gesso prior oil paint should be executed with size leyer to cut absorbency? Also, should size layer be applied prior or after tempera grassa, I guess prior dirrectly to gesso?

Damir P.​​

​Thank you for the clarification! This was incredibly helpful. One more quick question... For the back of the panel, do you have a favorite brand to recommend of either use shellac or Polycrylic? I have the Bulls Eye, but I didn't realize it was a top coat. Would it still work, or should I invest in something different? Thank you again for your help and time! This was exactly what I needed!

​Thank you Koo Schadler. Im looking forward to response.​

​Hi 

I just tried to save my question but it got posted it instead. Sorry.

To finish it, I'm just wondering if a "paste" of linen fabric could be added to an adhesive medium? If so, what medium might give the best results for some low relief sculpting? I could use a strong solution of hide glue or I could go with acrylic. If acrylic, what is generally suggested for creating a collage​ in acrylic? 

Thanks for your responses.

Yours,

Ellen Trezevant

Please see attached images of scratched paint, linseed oiled out area that is still tacky, and the appearance of an ivory black area.20220709_130542.jpg20220709_130517.jpg20220709_130531.jpg

​​Thank you so much for your feedback on this, I'll experiment, but looks like finishing in gouache might be the best direction to take. I appreciate your expertise

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​This is one of those questions where I don't think there's a correct answer for general public use.  For you I think, clearly better to "fortify" than to not.  However have you tried mere mixing a little of the drying oil into your paint instead?

Not an offical advisary member of MITRA

Marc.​​

​Thanks, Koo,

I've ordered the Lescaux fixative as well as the matte varnish. Will let you all know how things proceed.

Hi Koo,

Thanks for your informative responses. 

Yes, I did do some thorough testing of various grounds for this project last year, many of them based on your advice. As I recall, the Artboards Gesso was not available in Europe (then) but I was able to procure some of the Natural Pigments Tempera Ground. Again, as I recall, the Natural Pigments Ground worked fine for the silverpoint aspect (though the line was too "fine" for my purposes) but it absorbed my white washes too quickly, making that side of the image creation less pleasant - ​for me.

I was intriguied by your mention of the electrostatic attraction element of silverpoint. Always more to learn.

After my response to Mirjam yesterday (about possibly using a Golden MSA varnish), I sniffed around this forum to find out what kind of fixative is generally recommended for silverpoint. I found that Brian (Baade), Tom (Mazullo) and you had recommended the Lescaux ( UV Protect Varnish). After some more research I began to think that that might be a good solution for me right now. Thus, a matte version of the Lescaux varnish/ fixative in spray form should fix my drawing, possibly reduce the reflectivity that is occurring in some areas and still provide a surface which is capable of receiving other applications of paint (the Liquitex spray paint that I mentioned earlier).

I have ordered some to try out on a few test pieces.

BTW: (in this case) is varnish the same as fixative?

Do you happen to know if it will darken the image? Sometimes there can be as much as a 10% value change, when light refracts through a thin layer of an otherwise transparent film. That's OK with me if that happens (since the SP value is still around a 50% gray value), just wondering. And I'm anticipating spray/scumbles to lighten it.

Thanks as always for your informative response.

Yours,

Ellen

​ 

KYNKYNY-Contemporary Indian Art Gallery Bangalore

We ship our paintings worldwide. Each piece is original; it is carefully packed, either flat or rolled in a tube, and is accompanied by a certificate of authenticity. Please note that we do not ship sculptures outside India.

https://kynkyny.com/​

​Thanks, Mirjam, I will definitely do some tests before proceeding any further. 

I should also note that, although strokes of silverpoint are reputed to be permanent, I have not found that to be the case (!). Of course, it does depend upon the ground that is used. Thus, even on traditional chalk gesso, I have found (in the past) that it is possible to make small corrections as needed, however that has turned out particularly to be the case when drawing in silverpoint on Golden's Pastel Ground. I have found that the strokes are (partially) water soluble (perhaps because the Pastel Ground still is?) as well as (partially) sensitive to a kneaded eraser (due to its toothiness?). All this tells me that I will definitely want to apply a (most probably solvent based) fixative to the drawing - either now or later.​

Relative to that fixative, I took a look at the array of Golden Varnishes (I don't see Fixatives listed). ​I think that the Matte version of MSA Varnish with UVLS would probably 'fix' the drawing, as well as reduce its reflectivity (bypassing my proposal for a further coating of the Paster Ground). In addition, the UV protection should help to reduce any further tarnishing of the silver - an added bonus in this case. The only question really then would be, now or later?

Would the permanence and adhesion quality of the anticipated Liquitex spray layer that I mentioned earlier be affected by the MSA Varnish? 

Or should I apply a traditional (solvent based?​) matte fixative for pastels? And again how would the permanence and adhesion quality of the anticipated Liquitex spray layer be affected?

Of course, it's clear that more testing will be required. Nevertheless, your input here would be helpful.

Thanks,

Ellen

Thank you Brian. That sounds like what I was thinking. Adding RSG to prevent mould in a humid environment sounded antithetical​. 

Is there any good way to prevent mould on the back of a finished painting?

​​Koo and Brian thank-you so much for your time expertise! It's what I expected. My wife and I have just moved up to Maine and I am sharing a workspace with her and she's not currently a fan of the smell of oil paint so they will go back into storage until I get my new studio built. And I get to make some more surafaces! Thanks again!

​​Wondering if anyone has thoughts on my Q? Thanks.

​Thank you all.  Perhaps 1:15 (Sennelier Fluide Brilliant:H2o) by itself with no acrylic paint added will yield a reliable film. Perhaps if dye-like tube acrylic color is added to the 1:15, the acrylic medium already present in the tube color will be adequate?  Likewise, may we assume if a high clay (or other thirsty or a not-so-absorbing pigment) content tube acrylic color is added to the 1:15 the acrylic medium already present in the tube color will be adequate?​ I wonder if Sennelier has a recommendation for ratio of Fluide Brilliant to water. I have not seen anything in their literature or on their site. Part of my perturbation is from seeing how strong are the strips and chunks of paint residues on the palette compared to those from other mediums I have used over several decades, the hardness of those residues and of the surface of paintings (with minimum impasto accompanied by bits of debris from shed bamboo brush hairs and vegetation from painting in the field) compared to previous mediums, and the the initial hard-sticky-tackiness during the hours before a "final" state of hardness comes about.  

Views of a fellow painter and not Mitra.  So it's clearly not part of the applied paint then.  I wouldn't paint over it myself as you don't know what its made of.  Personally I'd first be trying to absorb these on to tissue and then lightly clean those spots with white spirit to get the residual. If the tissue doesn't work, then carefully with a pallete knife instead.

Marc.​​

​Awesome, thanks Mirjam. I'll give it another try and see how it goes - fingers crossed. :)​​

I apologise - I should say Mirjam. I misread.​

​Thank you Mirjam! That is really helpful and interesting. I didn't realise it would absorb the water as much as it does.​

Hi Miriam,

It's from an Australian company called Art Spectrum :

https://artspectrum.com.au/products/oil-prime/

The description of the primer on the company website is a bit more terse than I remember it. These are product descriptions from a couple of Australian art stores :

"Oil Prime is a unique oil/acrylic resin blend. The 4 percent Linseed Oil content allows artists oil colours to crosslink for maximum adhesion...Clean up and thin with water. Suitable for canvas, hardboard and masonry (interior walls)."

"Art Spectrum® Oil Prime contains pure Linseed Oil that cross-links with artists’ oil colours for permanent adhesion and maximum flexibility over time...The oil content allows it to harden very gradually, in pace with the oil paints minimising stress cracking...this warm white primer requires no glue size barrier layer and may be used directly from the can. Dries in just one hour and may be double primed in just 12 hours all the while maintaining flexibility".

I think that covers the product features. Anyway, I would love to hear your thoughts - if this is a good idea, a reasonable risk, or a likely disaster!​

​​Follow up question, if it's not too late. 


I've tried the primer the OP is asking about. It's an acrylic resin with 4% linseed oil added. Very reminiscent of an exterior emulsion primer, dries very fast, stays fairly soft. ( It is meant to harden over time, at the same rate as oil paint ).


My uneducated guess is, that's what it is - an acrylic emulsion primer, with some linseed in it, made for artists. I wish I kept the practice pieces I used it on from six years ago. It's impossible to find any information online regarding tests or reviews or other artists' experiences with it.


My question is : is there anything about the idea of this kind of primer, in principle, that raises any red flags? The company that makes it admits the primer is "chemically complex", but at least the stuff is made with artists in mind, unlike housepaint. When I had a tin, I was too sceptical to use it on anything important. However at the moment, there's a dearth of options on art store shelves, and I'm reconsidering. 


Any speculation from the good people here would be welcomed as better informed than mine.




 ​

​Not my area, but wouldn't that place it somewhere in the same range as linseed oil?  So probably it would be fine.

Marc.​

​There were a few studies on this.  I'm not absolutely sure, but I think it might have been Yonah Maor 2008 who mentioned that when zinc white and lead white are mixed in drying oils.  That zinc metal soaps are preferencially formed over lead ones.  Which might explain why a sample of green paint containing lead white had no zinc white in it, but had zinc metal soaps.  Relating to this is the speculation that an area of paint of a work in Sydney Austrialia.  The small percentage zinc white was believed to have completely reacted away leaving only metal soaps.

Marc.​

Regarding precise terminology.  Doerner's use aside, could some dodgy paint films just have been misidentified as umber, but actually were something like Van Dyke brown?

Marc.​​

​Glad to hear it so.  Certainly I recall no incidences of umber particles migrating through to the backs of canvases.  But we're still left, in the past at least, with some reports of semi disolving films with CERTAIN umbers.  (if we can trust the reports that is).  

Wehlte (him again) said; "They should not be topped* and should contain no bituminous or humus matter."

So I inferred that some poor grades in the past might have.

​*by topped he means with dyes.

Marc​

I was sure Knut Nicolaus mentioned this somewhere in his book The Restoration of Paintings, and I found he noted briefly on pg,273  

"Oil solubility.  For the same reason, it should be noted that the oil in some pigments - certain kinds of umber, for instance - can tend to dissolve.  Parts of these pigments are oil soluble.  These can stray on the retouching  surface or from there into the adjacent paint layer and discolor it.  Bitumen is also an oil soluble paint. According to Wehlte, it can seep through oil paints and ground layers to the rear side of the canvas."

I include the bit about bitumen because it shows the influence of Wehlte.  I also note the "CERTAIN KINDS OF UMBER"  Perhaps those umbers were slightly bitumenous?  And hopefully no longer in use.

Thank you all for your views.

Marc.​​

​One source for this I can find is The Materials & Techniques of Painting; Kurt Wehlte 1975. pg 115

"Application: In pastel, glue casein, tempera, oil (where it should more propertly be replaced by a mixture to obviate darkening), lime, silicate (not for exterior use).  Because the raw varieties darken in oil, technologically knowledgabe modern painters avoid umber altogether.  Professor Doerner used to show his students some of his impressionistic landscape sketches, of which some were deliberately painted with umber and others without.  The sketches painted with umber had darkened noticably after only ten years.  The high oil content necessary for the best varieties, plus the formation of maganese soaps is connected with another phenomenon, which is characterized by a diffusion into the adjacent paint layers of colloidal particles found in too finely ground shades.  

Further remarks: All necessary shades of umber can easily be mixed from ochre, raw and burnt sienna, and ivory black, thereby eliminating all risks in mural and easle painting."

Marc.​

​It's also worth noting that "Pre-Raphaelite paintings [that contain zinc oxide] are in generally great condition" is a claim that gets passed around a lot, but which does not appear to be true if you read any literature about the conservation of Pre-Raphaelite paintings, which do in fact suffer from the sort of deterioration that we associate with zinc oxide (brittleness, cracking, inter-layer delamination). "Pre-Raphaelite Painting Techniques," by Joyce Townsend, Jacqueline Ridge, and Stephen Hackney (published by the Tate) has numerous accounts of deterioration and paint loss in various Pre-Raphaelite paintings caused by zinc oxide, especially when used as a ground. For example.​

You need to be very careful about accepting laypeoples' assessments of the conditions of old paintings, especially if those assessments are made by viewing paintings in a museum. Museum conservators tend to be very good at their jobs, so just because a painting looks like it's in good condition, that doesn't mean that it is. 

Thanks Brian,
The Gottsegen reference surprised me.​
Phthalo green and blue are all I use between ultramarine and cadmium yellow light, so I would have thought I would have noticed bleeding, although most of the time it's usually a fairly small portion of a mix.

Ron Francis

Correction, it was George O'Hanlon's facebook group, not Virgil's.​

Thank you Gillian and Mar​​garet, very helpful!​

Hello,

Thanks for the extra information. Indeed, as you say, coating all sides takes time but is worth it I think. I appreciate the specifications and will make my best to make quality supports that suits my love for well-crafted projects. Sincerely,

Aude​

Thanks a lot for the detailed and useful information Mrs. Schadler. I will make good use of your precious advice!

Aude​

To be more specific - the painting was completed more than 6 months ago. From an art conservation perspective:

1. How would you determine the degree of poorly bound paint? When I wipe a dry or wet with spit cotton bud across I either get nothing or very light indication of colour in some places. It's not everywhere. I first identified it just doing some isolated spot cleans which involved more significant rub and resulted in slightly heavier pigment.

2. If you encountered this what steps would you take to protect the painting prior to varnish? I do need to varnish for the rich colours and darks. ​

I appreciate your brainstorming, Marc, and I can certainly see why you would suggest too oily of a paint mixture as the cause. However, I am pretty meticulous with my ratios, and actually only use around a third of what the paint manufacturer lists as the maximum amount of alkyd/oil medium. I had also recently been using these exact same admixtures in a similar passage on the same underpainting, just in a different spot. It definitely seems to be a result of having cleaned this area with the turps, because this is the only region of the entire painting that is behaving differently, and that is the only differing factor.​

I applied my paint fairly thinly, so when I said that it appeared to be coming from underneath, it may have only been a trick of the eye due to the slight height difference from the top of the paint passage and the surrounding underpainting, and how the oil was seeping/slightly spreading from the paint.

If you have any other ideas, particularly with what I can do with the edges that seeped back out, I welcome them. 

All the best! 

Thanks Koo.

I was a good reminder and I went through my article to make doubly sure that the medium was clear. So thank you again!

​Me again. Thank you for sharing your insight as well, Koo Schadler.

-Julie​

Hi Koo Schadler

I did put oil in the title of the post, the first line of the post, and say I was comparing oil on canvas to oil on panel.

You are correct that I overstated the ages of the paintings because I did my maths wrong, I should have just said from 1500 to 1900. The room I started in was mostly egg tempera on wood with a couple of egg oil emulsions, from the 1400s and many of them were heavily cracked/crazed. But I didn't spend much time there because my mission was to find images to support my article 'Principles for Creating Long-Lasting Oil Paintings'. 

By the way, I love painting in egg tempera and I would never assume when anyone says 'painting' that they mean oil.​​

​Thank you Robert, Marc and Brian!

That all makes perfect sense. The Alla Prima might be the weakest point in my list.

As a follow up on that point, could I get your thoughts on best practice for layering oil paint? I hear about and have experineced myself lots of problems with adhesion and I understand that using retouching varnish between layers and oiling out of the whole surface are both not recommended solutions. I love layering and often will continue on a painting after it is very dry. Oiling out doesn't work in this situation for me anyway as it beads up and also I don't want a yellow surface where some parts will not be covered.

​Yes I've personally seen a fellow artist's plain hardboard painting hit the floor in a gallery. The damaged corner seemed inpossible to fix.  On top of that, part of the pale mostly titanium/zinc white area semi-shaled away from the surface.  Not a completely lost artwork by any means, but probably a liability to encourage sales in the exhibition.

Marc.​

​Not one of the experts.

Many of these claims need the statement "All other things being equal."  Which they often aren't.

A rigid support is better than a flexible __ Regarding cracking. If the rigid has the same surface, then generally yes.  However the smooth panel I've noticed, will often allow the shrinkage of paint prone to this to be less impeded across it's surface with the result that cracks can be fewer, but larger.  With a rough Canvas the cracks can be so small and numerous that they can be barely seen at all.  Still, I'd personally use what ever gains the visual effect desired.

Alla Prima is better than layers __See first statement, but mostly yes.  In my view though if the painting is better improved by adding another layer.  Add anouther layer.

A thin layer is better than a thick one __ As long as the layer isn't soo thin as to be easily abraded or cleaned off.  See Leonardo da Vinci.

Use paint with fewer ingredients __ Mostly true, but not always, some pigments could do with a little hardening or softening, or deduction in tinting strength.

Add few or no mediums __ depends on the paint and the medium.  However I'd say be careful of painting mediums that are mostly solvent.

Varnish after 6-12 months __ More often true than not.

Marc.​

So fresh oil is separating from under the freshly applied paint?

​Sounds like far too much added medium or poorly made paint to me.  Granted a glossly surface wouldn't help, but it wouldn't solely cause this.

I have seen this fresh dripping/seeping effect only once before, and they were using far too much oil medium. I didn't see them paint it, but they were clearly using too much.  They started with too much, and continued to keep adding layers of ever greater amounts. (yours is a mild case by comparision)  In the end their painting wouldn't even dry.

To begin with, I was wondering if it was a case of apparently dried paint reliquefying, (this has, if rarely, happened before with semi-drying oil bound paint with slow drying pigments sealed off from light and oxygen) but this doesn't seem to what has happened.

Marc.​​

Hi Brian and Marc,

Marc -- since it happened as I was painting a second layer on the dry, lean underpainting, it appears to have slowly seeped from the edges of the wet paint a few minutes after I completed the passage. It seemed to be coming from underneath the wet paint if that's what you mean, though I didn't apply my paint very thickly. Any thoughts or ideas are greatly appreciated!

Brian -- this was a very high quality, single-primed Belgian linen (I find single primed to be easier to stretch than raw canvas), and then I applied several coats of an acrylic dispersion primer made by a respected manufacturer -- they do the Just Paint blog and newsletter than you recommended . So I don't think that's the culprit, though I don't know the source of the ground used by the manufacturer of the Belgian linen. However, since it only happened in the area where I cleaned with turps (and that same ill-fated cleaning is what brought up the impurities in the nearby green grass areas that we discussed in the other recent thread), I can only think that there is some connection, though it makes no sense to me. I plan to check with the manufacturers of my paint and the primer to see if they have any ideas -- the only other thing I could think of is a light sanding on the underpainting to increase the tooth, giving the oil medium of future passages a place to better "grip and settle into" -- does that sound reasonable?

My other thought was, regardless of what may have caused it, I now have a few edges of oil that seeped out after I thought I had saved the day by wiping off the initial oil seepage. What is to be done with those edges? Is it safe to overpaint, or should I consider very lightly sanding those existing dry, thin edges as well? (I have sanded before, though it is not a usual part of my practice. I do have a mask suitable for use with pastels that should be an appropriate safety precaution.)

If you think taking different photographs would help (closer details, or from an angle or with raking light, etc.) I'd be happy to provide them, though I certainly understand that it is more difficult to diagnose such a thing from photographs rather than seeing the actual painting.

I do appreciate your time and expertise, and welcome anyone else to weigh in if they have any ideas.

​All the best to you both. 

​As a replying uncertain lurker.  Is it just oil medium separating from the surface or oil medium rich paint seeping.  

Is whatever that's seeping, doing so from under another layer, or directly from the top surface?

Marc.​​

Thank you for your time, Brian. It seems that in my efforts to be thorough and give you all the information, I became unclear in describing my issue.

Regarding my practice, fortunately I am already working as you described. I am well acquainted with the fat over lean information that you provided, though I appreciate the reminder that the process is a bit more forgiving than some sources would indicate. I use very little solvent, mechanically thinning my underpainting rather than overusing OMS. Also, rest assured that I haven't oiled out – it is not a part of my practice.

You asked, “First, why wipe an acrylic dispersion underpainting down with Turp or OMS?" and “Second, why are you “wiping"? Unless the painting (acrylic or oil) has been left dormant for some time, I do not understand the reasoning for this." To clarify, I don't underpaint with acrylics -- this is an oil painting with an oil underpainting, but the linen was first primed with an acrylic dispersion primer “gesso". I began the painting several years ago. It had been dormant for quite some time until I resumed work on it this year. It had also been through two studio moves. When I previously used distilled water to clean off a couple of spots last year, it only made a slight difference. OMS worked better, but it took artist's rectified turpentine to clean them off. I noticed a couple more spots recently, so I cleaned them with the turps, which unfortunately apparently brought up more impurities as detailed in my recent earlier post. This is definitely not a part of my usual practice.

To clarify the current issue, by the oil “leaching", perhaps I should have said “seeping." Your description, “Do you mean that there is a sort of crawling ring that radiates from the area?" is a good one. I've never seen anything like it, since the preceding layer was a lean, mechanically thinned underpainting. As this ring emerged, I wiped off the oil edges from my freshly applied passage as they gradually seeped out, because I am familiar with the potential pitfalls of applying straight oil medium -- via such practices such as oiling out or using an oil medium in lieu of a varnish -- thanks to such informational resources as you listed. I was concerned that such an oil ring would result in discoloration were I to leave it showing, or adhesion issues were I to overpaint (as I had been planning to eventually do in this area). In the photographs I provided, while the freshly applied passage in question is fatter, it is still wet, which is why it looks that shiny. I've been working on other similar areas of this work with the identical underpainting, pigment mixtures, and medium ratio for some time with no such issues. The only difference is that I recently cleaned the underpainting in this area as I described above.

You said: “I cannot tell exactly from the images, but PERHAPS there is a transition where the oil from the fat paint saturates the perimeter of the more lean paint, saturating the color." Yes, that is indeed what was happening. Unfortunately, in a few small areas, it does appear to have continued to seep again after I left the studio. These edges do not appear as shiny/fat as the painted passage, however, if that provides any additional clues.

I hope my issue is now clearer. If you are able to advise based on the information I have provided, I would very much appreciate your suggestions for how I should best proceed, both regarding how to keep such seeping from happening again while I work on nearby future passages, as well as what to do with the little oil edges that seeped back out in the initial trouble zone. If you think these edges are not problematic and I can overpaint with a slightly fatter layer as you described, that's great news.

Many thanks again.​

Hi Brian

I have read every varnish post on the forums and the entire varnish resource guide over the last few weeks.

​I could not find an answer to this question so wanted to see if anyone on the forum knew.

Adding an edit to my question:

Thinking about it, ​I suppose it should be 'sufficiently' dry then, not 'completely' dry.


-Julie​

Sarah, this is a richly researched and nuanced response that - to be a little metaphorical - turns the item inside out so that we can see material, patchwork and stitching. I'll take the opportunity to say how often I've seen or quoted your work and commend you on such a rich contribution to art over quite a period through asking pertinent questions, thoughtfully constructed research, clear communication, and always allowing the findings to guide the conclusions. The latter is called integrity.

Thanks, Brian. Now I have another strange issue with the same painting that I think must have also been caused by wiping it with artist's rectified turpentine when I was cleaning it, then wiping again with OMS to remove any turps residue as I previously described.

This happened as I painted a passage last week in the area I had previously wiped-down (long evaporated), which to recap was a mechanically-thin underpainting on acrylic dispersion primer. I'm using professional grade oils suspended in walnut oil, with a walnut oil/alkyd medium. The underpainting was done several years ago using a different brand of solvent-based alkyd medium, mixed 50/50 with OMS. In my second, current layers on this underpainting, I'm using a 60/40 fatter ratio, and in both layers, the paint is adulterated 20% with my medium mixuture. The substrate is high quality, stretched linen canvas, and if it makes a difference, my studio relative humidity percentage is really low right now (like in the mid to high 20s).

I've been working on this piece for several months with no issues until I wiped the lower part of the painting with the turpentine as I mentioned previously. It's a huge canvas, so I have to paint one managable area at a time. What happened recently is the first time I've ever seen anything like this happen in the several decades that I've been painting in oil paints. I noticed after I had completed this particular passage that the walnut oil was leaching out in a thin ring around the edges, as one might see had it been placed on paper or a paper palette. It happened both onto the adjoining underpainting and the adjoining long-dry area with a second layer at 60/40 (the green grass in the attached photo). I knew it would be bad to leave a "bare" unpigmented oil edge like that, so the only thing I could think of to do was to wipe that oily edge off with my lint-free rag with OMS, then retouch the edges of the areas so they weren't inadvertantly too lean. I kept having to work back and forth until it wasn't leaching out anymore. There were a couple of places where I was never able to reapply paint on the edge without it continuing to leach, but I was wiping very carefully, so I don't expect it to be too lean at the edge.

I recall feeling that when the brushes went down, the surface had a different "drag" to it, an almost "squeaky" feeling, so I suspect that somehow, by using the turps, I disrupted the oil layer of the underpainting, though it is not underbound. Would oiling oil the next area before painting each new passage take care of this? I don't usually oil out as I work, and I know you have to paint over it lest it turn brown eventually if left bare. If this is the solution, I'm also wondering if this would be enough oil to affect my fat-over-lean ratio. Since it is difficult to always predict what organic shapes my textures will take in each segment of working on this huge canvas, I'm a little concerned about oiling out, unless it isn't as difficult to manage properly as I am thinking.

I don't yet know if the grass areas with the subtle white filmy rings look that also resulted from this turps application will behave in this same way. I really hope not! And just to dot the I and cross the T, did you think that I'd be able to overpaint those affected areas with highlights and shadows without those presumed impurities coming up to haunt me later?

I'm attaching a few photos of this oil leaching situation. It will look like a darker gray pencil line of sorts. I haven't been able to find anything about this phenomenon, so I can't tell you how much I appreciate your help. I haven't been back to the studio since this happened, so I hope I don't find out that it leached more after I left, as it will now be dry. 

Many thanks! (It looks like this post was initially wiped out by the photos I just attached, so thank you for your patience if it gets duplicated.)

​Many thanks for your replies, Brian -- I appreciate your patience with my response as I got quite busy there for awhile and didn't have time to follow up until now.

The "situation" was indeed difficult to photograph. Essentially, once the turp evaporated that I had used to clean the surface, it looked like I had applied an extrememly thin, dull white glaze with my rag. 

It sounds as though eventual varnishing will mitigate this milky appearance wherever I am not overpainting. I just wanted to check that overpainting wouldn't be an issue here, since I do need to apply the final highlights and shadow layers to this passage of midtone colors. 

Also, another issue I have is that a very small area that essentially ended up being rather accidentally sanded as I tried to remove a small, stray glob of paint that had fallen when I was working on the top portion of the canvas, but I didn't realize it until it dried. I might have left it but I knew it was violating fat over lean. I assume I can just paint over this area without issue, following the fat over lean rules regarding the surrounding layers? I'd say it's maybe half to 2/3 the size of a US dime, so in the grand scheme of this large canvas, it's an extremely small spot. I know some artists sand layers as a routine part of their practice -- the airborne pigments are likely the main concern there, right?​

​Thank you all for the helpful feedback. I plan on continuing my tests, however, problems like delamination concern me because these defects may not show up for decades down the road. I've heard of tempera delaminating 30 years after painting: a painter finished the faces last (the most layers in the painting), then varnished it the next day with lascaux or a similar acrylic varnish and sent it off. 30 years later, the faces just peeled off. 

A related question: what about when a house or car gets egged? Vinyl siding and automotive paint are definitely not ideal painting surfaces, yet the yolk dries fast and permanently. Does tempera's high PVC affect the adhesion versus pure yolk?

I'm sure most mural painters using marouflage are painting with acrylic because it is most suited for the process. Alas, that's probably what I'll have to stick to! It was worth a shot to try to use the medium I love on a large scale!

Thanks again for all your help!
Brian Whirledge


​Hi,

Thank you for your responses so far. I'm attaching photos of both the type of panel I used: Da Vinci brand on "warp resistant sealed MDF" with a "kiln-dried New Zealand pine cradle" 24" x 18",  and a side view of the bowing panel.

BowingPanel.jpeg

OilPaintingBowing.jpeg


I appreciate any additional advice you have with this new information.

Cheers.

​Thanks a lot to both of you, I am now ready to jump into the painting part: I have precise, clean, and clear lines on my panel. I also tried the homemade transfer paper recipe and it was worth it. I worked carefully, but it still went fast and did not get messy. I found it nice to choose a color that was not too dark and that would be easily covered later on. I will explore the other transering techniques as well for other paintings.

Sincerely,

Aude

Hello Mrs. Schadler,

Thanks a lot for all your tips and suggestions; I will use one or another transferring technique depending on what I do. I enjoy building up with numerous layers of painting to get a certain depth, and I also appreciate how we can obtain subtle color variations and gradual blends with egg tempera (I tried sponges and watercolor like techniques). I do sometimes create a contrast with more opaque colors as well to emphasize certain items in my composition (although there are various ways to draw the viewer's attention to a focal point) … I will also try the homemade transfer paper recipe you generously posted. I will no longer use wax paper, that's for sure! I am a little worried about my previous paintings (when I used wax paper) and wonder if the paint will stay on the panel (which it did during the past months): I guess only time will tell? It also reminds me that I used isopropyl alcohol instead of denatured alcohol after sanding them and before painting on my panels (we have no denatured alcohol in Quebec). Will it change anything? So far, everything seems ok, but from what I understood, egg tempera takes some time to dry/coagulate from the inside and «stabilize» .

Thanks a lot,

Aude​

​Thank you so much for your answers. I will continue my tests. Is lipid efflorescence (aka blooming?) the primary reason why acrylic grounds are discouraged for egg tempera?​

​Thanks a lot Mr. Baade. I feel very grateful about receiving such a detailed and clear answer from the professional your are. 

Aude​​

​Thank you very much all.  Very helpful, I will pass this along.

Marc.​

​Sorry for the duplication, my question wasn't coming up in the Search All, so I though it didn't go through and tried again.​​

​thank you both so much. I think  I will give the colorful inks from sennelier a shot!​

First I want to thanks to all people involved in running MITRA Art Forum. For me this forum is unique way to not only make easel paintings I wish, but to feel "up to date" as a part of this society.

Yes, I added solvent after stand oil paint is prepared. I didn't know about pre-thinning oil would make different binder to pigment ratio in paint.

Why I used stand oil as sole binder?

There were two reasons;

1. To keep last paint layers which I reserved for Zinc white flexible, due to Zinc Oxide notorious behavior.

2. To achieve bigger contrast between shiny and matte surface areas in painting composition. Areas with stand oil work great as shine, and matte ones were painted with opaque pigments and coarser chalk filler at more CPVC's. This layers are not atop each others they are adjacent.

What could I do to solve this two goals?

Once the painting is finished I guess I could use HMW varnish to function as protective layer, of course due to shiny vs matte contrasts in painting composition I guess I should use varnish in middle between matte and shine to impact this minimally.

Damir P.

Thank you Marc and Brian for your messages. It made me realize that my problem is a bad quality loose linen, not necessarily a sizing issue. Unfortunately, I have 15 yards of this stuff to go through. It sounds like the way forward is temporary stretching, sizing and priming and then final stretching for big paintings; and gluing to panels for small. 

I've tried various PVA and GACs and they just do not match the surface you get with RSG & oil ground but I will experiment again when I have a chance. Thank you again!​

​From just another artist, I'm not not sure there is an exact answer.  Certainly the linen needs to be sealed, and stiffened, but the general view is that there also shouldn't be a layer of RSG.  However if it's sealed, surely there must be a layer of some kind?  Perhaps not a discernable layer?  So "slick and shiney" might be too much, but hold in mind production of artists canvases has been worse is history.  At one point. Was it the 19th century?  the French were laying RSG cold and thick with a spatula onto thick linens.  Now these supports have the RSG and linen expanding and shrinking at different rates.  But the paintings still exist.

As I understand it, the sizing mostly only needs to be where the oil paint will contact (though it does need to be absorbed) so soaking though to the back isn't absolutely required UNLESS the linen is of such an open weave the the oil paint itself ​will strike through the hole. IF the linen is very open, sizing the linen in the stretcher can result in the line striking/sticking to the stretcher.  I've solved this in the past by tacking up the linen within a frame like a animal skin, but with more points of restraint.  Only after drying then putting on a stretcher.​​

As to prewashing I hang the linen flat with many, many pegs in a single layer on the washing linen and spray in a fast fan setting with a water hose gun.  I do this twice letting it dry inbetween.  The second time it seems to wet more easily so I believe something has been washed out of it.  Putting it in a gentle machine wash cycle I had problems as well.

It's all a bit of bother. I've given up on light linens, except when glued to panels, and completely given up on RSG.  Using one of Golden's Acrylic resins instead.​

Marc.

Marc,

You understood me.

I can't remember I ever read not to use stand oil as sole binder explicitly, but now it seems logical. It levels brushstrokes thus surface looses tooth for subsequent layers. In future I'll mix stand oil with regular linseed oil.


Thanks for clarification,

Damir P.​

Sorry to add onto my question so soon, but if I may also ask about pre-washing linen. I was taught to always pre-wash. The logic is that you wash away anything foreign and that linen shrinks up to 20-30% and you want that shrinkage to happen before you paint.

But pre-washing makes stretching a nightmare, the canvas has no structure and I always end up with sections all twisted and off-grain. Would giving a canvas a soak in a light solution of RSG before actually stretching a good idea? Or I should just not pre-wash? Thank you for your time!​

​So as I understand it, you're making your own paint.  The first paint layer is made with some form of standard linseed and the following layers, paint made with stand oil only?

Stand oil is not generally considered suitable as a sole binder for oil paints and I imagine this is one of the effects of using it in this fashion.  The dry surface of your paint is probably too glassy and fat to resist the​​​ aglomeration movements of the following layers you place down.  

Marc.​​

​Many thanks for your excellent detailed advice. I will follow this.​

​Hello,

Dear Brian, i have read somewhere about barium suphate but i didnt get the chance to try it out. Initially while studying we were using lead white,but due to being very poisonous,i personally stopped. Others still use it. With all this varnishing issue i think i will be using Titanium white,even if it is not ideal for my taste. From Koo Schadlers answer using chalk would cause problems afterwards i think. Even if it doesnt i dont understand how chalk will mix with egg yolk,wont it lump up and form a muddy like mixture?

Dear Koo Schadler ,thank you for you kind words,i am actually still a learner concerning icon painting,especially the whole egg emulsion technique.

When i paint i tend to use an egg yolk/distilled water mixture 1:1 ratio,like you suggested. Now in the summer i tend to used 3-4 drops of white wine,which i think it acidified ,due to the high temperature. Even so, 3 drops are being greatly diluted ,in my opinion to affect the blue colours. In my case i think its the black pigment that was affected. We prepare this ourselves by using olive tree wood. When properly burned it produces a very "cold" black pigment,it produces blue like colours when mixed with titanium white.

When experimenting on strips of colour,i did see some change on this pigment mixtures after using paraloid on them. Even so i tend to add a little black pigment everywhere to harmonise my colours. The fact that the other colours stayed the same doesnt make any sense. I have no idea.
The egg emulsion is with distilled water but the water i use to wash my brushes when working is tap water. When i glaze i sometimes use some of the tap water. But the water here is not hard. Even so i will try using only distilled water.

As far as humidity when varnishing,i tend to varnish in a room. I admit that i dont check the humidity levels,it is also very hot were i live so,i dont know if it is due to these variables. Even so it would have been an overall varnishing problem through out the icon. The fact that only certain areas have been affected ( I hope it stays like that) suggests to me that its either a solvent problem ,the acetone like you mention or a pigment problem.

Others also told me about acetone being the problem. I was asking about sandarac because it is an ethanol based varnish.I dont think i will be using it,but in Romania they use it instead of paraloid.Isolating the icons and then varnishing on top. 

I will try and experiment with only using ethanol as a solvent for paraloid.



​​I apologise, i forgot to answer about antimony white. I understand the risks involving this pigment. I havent used it on this icon. The reason for using it is because it tends to be weaker than titanium white. It has weaker tinting strength and is more transparent. It also has a less chalky effect than titanium white...its texture i mean. Due to these properties,i can manipulate colour easier when using it.

​​The only reason i can think of this happening  is because of the many thin glazes. I have seen this happening in other situations when i had used other varnishes. I have no knowledge on the topic so i cannot explain anything ..i am just guessing.

The icon was left to dry for two weeks. I do not know if it matters but temperatures here vary from 30 -40 'C. 

When you mention physical reason of observing this..i do not understand what you mean?  When i brushed  B72,i was very careful to avoid disturbing the paint layer. 

You said that paraloid B72 tends to be more flexible when applied and as time passes it tends to harden. Does this have any effect on the paint?  Some sort of surface tension being caused?

Even so all these do not explain why other colours remain unaffected? The red which was a mixture of cadmium red with other pigments,is still unaffected.

IMG_20210728_083811.jpgIMG_20210728_083906.jpg

I have included more photographs,on the face left of the nose you can see a change,and also on the wings. The before and after effect can be seen here,since the remaining areas are still unaffected.

Out of interest,when using sandarac,how long does one need to wait before using it on a painting?

​​Hello,

Concerning the acetone issue that came up. I had an icon that i had varnished/ sealed with the ethanol/acetone dissolved B72. It was fine up to the third week. I have sadly  notised today that there are alterations in some of the colours. I do not know if this is because of the acetone content,or because these areas were glazed several times.IMG_20210727_152042.jpgIMG_20210727_152054.jpg

I have attached these photographs to show the issue. The blue in the sphere is intact,whereas the blue on the clothes has become foggy with the underpainted layer bleached.

These fragments were painted as follows : The underpainting was a mixture of black pigment from charcoal, Titanium white and brown umber.

It was then glazed with a mixture of ultramarine and lapis lazuli. Followed by the successive layers containing ultramarine,brown umber and titanium white in different proportions. The resulting cloth was finely glazed with a grey muddy mixture of black,brown umber,titanium white . This was done in all areas including the sphere.

Any clues of what is happening?


Sorry forgot to sign that comment 'Marc'

Unsigned user comments must get a little confusing at times.​​

​The acid levels of different linseed oils or other oils completely, would make a difference as well.  Always bad, but different degrees of bad.​

I have a follow up question please-

Is an alkyd resin in contact with the surface detrimental to the longevity of cellusose, the same as a drying oil? And also are all drying oils as detrimental as each other to canvas and paper or is linseed oil worse for some reason? How detrimental are they, if paint covers the entire front so there are no unsightly rings of oil, and there is still enough oil to act as a good binder on the front, if oil seeps through does the back darken and become brittle over time to a slight degree or a huge degree?​

Thank you George O'Hanlon. They say it contains linseed oil so I don't understand how it can be applied to raw canvas without a size. Do you know how that might be possible? ​

Thank you Brian for the clarification. I now have more specific questions to your answers.

 I was wondering ​​if its known how much time is required for paraloid to release its solvent? In my case the ethanol/acetone mixture? Can the process become sped up,for example through heating?

Is this release hindered if a varnish is placed on top of the B72 layer?

Does this retention have any effect on the paint layers?

Do all this apply for the traditional ethanol- sandarac mixture?

​Testing as user​

​testing again as user​

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​User Post test​

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​​Hello everyone,

I have some questions that i would be grateful if you could provide some clarification.

I was talking to an icon conservator about the B72 method that I am trying out. He said that acetone as a solvent tends to not fully evaporate? Which is confusing to me..and that with time it will damage the paint layer. I have done some searching and i have found that ,upon evaporation acetone tends to leave residues behind that should be cleaned with isopropanol. If i understood correctly, residues are left from the dissolved substances in the acetone and not from the acetone itself? 

If it so,then adding 1/8 of acetone to the ethanol paraloid mixture fully evaporates and doesnt leave anything behind apart from the dissolved B72 ,that forms the isolation layer?

He also said that B72 hardens even at 6%..which is strange for me..i have used up to 12% and it feels rubbery..i could even remove it with my hands if i rubbed the surface.

Thank you


Hello. I have some PVA questions and one about acrylic yellowing.

Can anyone clarify more about the durability of PVA and how the PVA sold to artists is different to the PVA sold to woodworkers or for home use?

A materials researcher and tutor at the Slade Art School  says "PVA is prone to deterioration and should be avoided." 

I thought it might dry up/shrink and/or yellow ...

Is there a difference between products marketed to artists as PVA size and those as PVA adhesives?

I had thought that acrylic was a better alternative for sizing. But I also thought acrylic didn't yellow, when used for other aplications, but recently noticed that a painting that used lots of acrylic gel for transparent layers has yellowed considerably in about 15 years. Any ideas about what causes this?

Thanks for your help!

I have two oil painting paper questions.

I know an artist who uses watercolour paper for oil painting. He says that since it is both internally and externally sized it is a sound practice.

Last year I tested oil painting on 9 oil papers and found that oil painting paper from manufacturers who did not have the equipment for external sizing had seepage of oil through to the back over time. Most of the externally sized papers had some seepage too, though a lot less. 

I emailed all the manufacturers and no one would disclose the sizing material, except the only one that uses gelatine. But they implied that it was different to the material used for sizing watercolour paper. But I got the same amount of seepage or less on my tests with watercolour paper. So I wanted to ask if anyone knows if a different sizing is used for oil paper than for watercolour paper, or if it is a different amount or a different method of application. Or if a hard-sized watercolour paper has a good longevity when used with oil paint.

I also asked the manufacturers about the seeping through of the oil over time and they said it would not affect the longevity of the paper because the internal sizing protects the fibres from the embrittlement of the linseed oil. Does this sound right to you?

A question about the recommendation of using solvent-based acrylic as a size for paper for oil painting. Can someone please point me in the direction of a solvent-based acrylic medium, like matte medium? I can only find Golden's MSA colours.​

​I'm happy that I found this old post as it answers my pressing question about how I might add additional gesso layers to already dry gesso in order to repair damage. To enlarge the problem/discussion, in some areas of this large 4' x 8' panel the damage is so bad that the hardboard is showing through. In this case I can apply new gesso without worrying about adhesion, but in other areas the damage is so great that applying additional layers may make it worse and I'd like to remove the gesso and apply it anew. Would it be safe to soak off the gesso in areas about 2-3" and then reapply? What about the edges next to the dry gesso? Would this be a problem? Most of the panel is just fine and I've already begun the painting so hate to scrape it all off so I'm left with making these repairs. How these damaged areas came to be is another story having to do with making gallons of gesso and losing track of the glue strength in some bottles, so I think some of it did not have strong enough glue. I'm an experienced gesso maker and never had a problem like this before. Thanks so much! Lora Arbrador​

​Thank you for this. We see plenty of oil paintings that are five hundred years old and in great condition. Other artworks are thousands of years old and cave paintings that are fifty thousand years old.  (Who among us makes anything that will last fifty thousand years, even with all our high technology?) Manufacturers who say their product will last "a long time" but actually mean mere decades, really do need to be taught that art has much higher standards. Thank you for the work that you do.

Regards,

Clay

​Thank you, Richard, for your comment. This helps.  It seems that there might not be anything inherent to the ABS panel that is impermanent; one just needs to get stuff to really stick mechanically. When I am in doubt, I scrape it with a fingernail to see what comes off. I doubt the bond gets stronger with age.

Regards,

Clay

​I am just an artist, and not a conservator or specialist but I had previously read this interesting patent for a ABS plastic panel with a clay/acrylic top-coating:

https://patents.google.com/patent/CA2622593A1/en

we have focused on ABSpolymer sheets and have conducted experiments to ensure that the product that is developed actually works on an ABS plastic surface. We have found that certain polymers, such as polypropylene and polyethylene, have waxy surfaces and are not suitable because the soft gels will not properly adhere to them. However, we have found that when the soft gel is applied to an open (sanded) surface of an ABSplastic surface, and allowed to dry, it is difficult to scrape off the ABS surface, even with a knife. We have found that Golden' soft gel gloss, available from Golden Artist Colors Inc., New Berlin, NY, is satisfactory as a base layer on the roughened ABS polymer surface.

The invention relates to a method of treating the surface of a polymer so that it is acceptable for watercolor pigments comprising: (a) roughening the surface of the polymer; (b) applying to the roughened surface a layer of 50% soft gel gloss mixed with a 50% kaolin clay and allowing it to dry; (c) sanding layer (b) after it is dry;(d) applying to layer (b) a second layer of 50 % soft gel gloss mixed with 50 % kaolin clay and allowing it to dry; (e) lightly sanding the second layer (d); (f) applying to layer (d) a layer of 50%kaolin clay/water mixture and allowing it to dry; (g) lightly sanding layer (f); and (h) applying a layer of absorbent watercolor ground to the layer of kaolin clay and allowing it to dry.


There is more information in the patent about their process and how long it take to remove with an electric sander as well.

I hope this is useful to you.
Richard



​I read about the clay base,thank you for the reference,i did not know about such a method of gilding. I am searching for a recipe with information on preparing the bole myself,like Brian suggested.

Emm i have noticed during my experiments that ochre and terra verde tend to bleach,especially ochre. It also happened to some of my icons..especially on the face and hands.

I didn't know about the skin analogy and correctly tempered paint! Thank you for letting me know.

I dont have anything else to report from my experiments,so i hope the information was helpful.

If i find something else i will report it,for anyone interested. Thank you all for all the tips and information.

​Ah, so there's really no way of knowing whether we're ever painting fat over lean.  

​Does painting "same over same," as one might do when applying paint from the same brand without adding any mediums or other additives, violate the fat-over-lean rule?

​Thank you very much for the education!

Thank you for clarifying this for me and making it easy for me to understand!​

​Thank you to both moderators for your input on this.  Let me see if I've got it right.  It sounds like sanding, then sealing with GAC 100, then either painting directly on the sealed surface, or painting after adding gesso or oil ground is recommended.

Regarding sealants, is there a difference between GAC 100 and plain old gloss medium?  In talking to Golden Paints, gloss medium was recommended over GAC 100 for better sealing.  Do you have an opinion on this?

Also, (and I know I am venturing outside my original question), I don't understand the purpose of an oil ground.  What's the difference between painting over an oil ground versus acrylic gesso?

​Thank you Matthew :)

​Thank you Matthew for your detailed reply.

So, for the student grade acrylics I'm not looking at craft grade paints, but instead from major manufactorers (W&N Galeria, Liquitex Basics, D&R System 3, etc..). I believe some of these use the same binder across the ranges, just with lower levels of pigmentation:

Can I use your different acrylic formats together?

Yes. All Liquitex products are compatible due to their compatible chemical composition. Our chemists use the same binder system across all our ranges so that they will all blend and work together and give you stable, archival results. You don’t need to worry that the dried paints will pull apart, crack, shrink, yellow, gel

I imagine there hasn't been on testing on the binder used in student grade acrylics though?

​No opinions on this?

​Oh, and would it be necessary to degrease tempered hardboard before applying an oil ground?

​Not to confuse things more (well, I am confused LOL), but I just read this in a JustPaint article from Golden Paints: "Ampersand recommends using GOLDEN GAC 100 to seal panels followed by several layers of gesso or an acrylic dispersion. Gamblin Oil Painting Ground can also be used to seal and finish a panel prior to painting with oils." 

Based on other concerns raised here, as well as information I've read elsewhere, I am starting to wonder whether it is better practice to seal tempered hardboard before painting on it with oils.

This raises another question.  Is an alkyd-based oil ground the only option?  I'm trying to create a healthy studio environment.

​Could I get some clarification on what to do?  One moderator thinks it's okay to paint directly on the tempered hardboard with oils because they shouldn't degrade the support.  Another says that the oils will soak into the hardboard.

I just finished reading the fantastic pdf here on rigid supports and it recommends degreasing and sanding.  Is that preferable to painting directly without sizing?

Is the pdf I read the last word on this?

​I will start with your question regarding B72 and water based varnishes.

I think it depends on the viscosity of the varnish,In my experiments i used them directly without dilution,so I didnt have any problems with the layer of varnish becoming uneven. But I am guessing that if i would increase the water content yes the covering would be uneven. I need to try it out.

I have used W&N Artisans Water mixable oil varnish Satin and Gloss. I dont know if it helps but when i used the L&B aerosol varnish that caused whitening of the paint layer. I then tried using diluted W&N on top and it was fine.

-Now when I said icons suffer, i meant the bleaching problem,but also the disappearing of very thin final glazes,and the disappearing of pigments that tend to be less concentrated than others. For example titanium white vs Antimony white. The latter tends to fade changing the overall tone of the icon.

-I thought that natural pigments have a greater tendency to react. I have observed this with ochre and terra verde.

-Concerning FAM. Doesn't it occur even if the pigments are correctly tempered?

Under tempering is not an option but i had a friend that used to paint like that. His icons felt chalky and were of course white, up to the varnishing point with olifa. After some time he told me that he tried an emulsion consisting of 1:0.5 egg yolk to varnish. I dont remember exactly what he was using.. if not mistaken it was damar varnish.

- The person that advised me on the L&B varnish paints using concentrated paint mixtures,so in 3-4 layers he finishes the base layer of an icon. He also told me that lately he uses more egg in his mixtures because there is less effect from varnishing e.g Disappearing of pigment, and whitening..so i dont understand the FAM issue..

I tend to paint with glazes and thinner layers..i try using the 1:1 ratio after you have advised me ,so i do not understand what is happening. I tend to use more water to thin down the paint after the correct tempering of the pigment.



​Hello,

I thought that Lascaux varnish is water based,i remember that you mentioned that the spray contained B72 but i thought the liquid one was different,that was the reason for using it. It is quite popular amongst iconpainters..but i do see subtle whitening on their icons. Others tend to use more harsh varnishes like the floor varnish that i have tried or even varnishes based on white spirit,used mainly for wood protection.

Their works do not suffer much because i am guessing is due to the chemical nature of their pigment? I tend to use natural pigments and minerals. What are your thoughts on this? I mean there is the chemical part of the pigments and then the egg emulsion problem.

Problems sometimes appear if they build up their layers through glazing. Bleaching occurs.

Some russian iconpainters do something else. They saturate the layers of paint with olifa,or another oil. Remove the excess and leave the icons to fully dry up for a few days. They then varnish their icons.

Concerning the renaissance wax,i think that your layers were not thick enough to protect the paint. I have mentioned some experiments with various numbers of B72 layers. The thinnest ones did not provide any protection from the varnishes that were reacting with paint.( As a test for how many layers were needed for protection).

For the L&B aerosol varnish. I have spoken to someone and told me that the problem might have been that i didnt shake the spray enough and might have caused problems. I don't know..i got confused because he also paints with  natural pigments and traditional egg emulsion and sprays his icons directly with no isolation etc. He does  this after 3 to 4 days and said that all is fine.


I didn't  quite understand your question on water based varnishes on top of B72? Do you mean if the surface produced is even ?

​I ordered some food grade silicone paper, but it turns out it is not nearly as smooth as the stuff we used for art packaging.
The silicone paper I have now, is probably fine for baking, but a simple test proofs it takes on soft pastel as easy as smooth writing paper.

Conclusion: it might be safe, but it does not work for art conservation.

Of course, there might be other sorts of food grade silicone paper that do the trick... Still interested, and still looking.

​But if hardboard can swell from humidity, could it not also soak up oils? If that is the case, you might end up with underbound oilpaint?

​Hello,

It has been a long time since i have written anything. I saw the new thread on Varnishing and though of posting an update-maybe someone will find it usefull and even suggest improvements.

Following Brian's advice i have used the ratio of ethanol and acetone to dissolve B72 and it worked fine,there was no cloudy solution which means the resin had fully dissolved.

As for the experiments i tried using higher B72 concentrations in hope of reducing the layers needed to isolate/protect the icons from the varnishes that i would apply afterwards. I used up to 15% ,and i have found that from these concentrations 12% works fine in terms of protection and application. I am trying to get used to applying it with a foam brush,,but its still tricky for me..the brush tends to soak up alot of the solution and then release alot..even if i try to remove as much as i can before applying..Any advice on anything concerning this method would be helpful. I might try spraying it as well.

Once the icon is painted i wait about 9 to 10 days and then i apply B72 in one layer. I do it in small strokes and i also use a hairdryer at a distance to increase the drying time. I do this because while experimenting i have noticed that sometimes the paint might bleach if drops of the solution remain longer at an area. I am guessing the acetone/ethanol solution is not very egg friendly.

I have said at another post that if B72 is applied on gold leaf it doesnt look very nice. Well if someone is going to apply another varnish on top the appearance of the gold is restored somehow,especially if the varnish is gloss. Maybe it hinders the resins appearance I do not know..

I have used different varnishes so far on B72 isolated test paint. Lascaux varnish seems to react with B72 and dissolves it... 

Other water based varnishes such as Polyvine Crystal Clear Lacquer (UK based company), Winsor and Newtons Artisans  Water Based Varnish do not react.

Lefranc Bourgeois Vernis A Tableaux,Anti UV aerosol also reacted..i do not know why...it is suppose to contain Stoddard Solvent..which is white spirit based.

I have even tried a floor varnish to see whether it would react. It was a water based satin varnish from a UK company called V33. The varnish did not react like the others but there was a very subtle cloudiness.When dry gave a hard surface so provided more protection compared to the others. But i guess it is on the extreme side...



Thank you, Brian​! That's great to hear. (no worries, I assumed I'd just been cheeky in expecting answers to such long and convoluted questions!)

Best wishes, Ellie

Hello,

I am posting this comment just for the interest of anyone else reading, because I realise that this is a years-old question!

I am also in Norway and recognise the problem that the student describes. At the Bergen Academy of Art & Design we also had several rolls of fine portrait linen (bought from a large supplier in Germany​) which behaved in the same way. My experience with this linen was identical (although I use rabbit skin glue, not PVA) - the linen would become very taught while the size was still wet, but then start to sag and wrinkle, and would dry as a rippled, bumpy mess. Uneven stretching didn't seem to be the problem, as I stretched it in the same way as I've done with other linen for years and have never had any problems. Additionally, the bumpy surface was more or less uniform all over, with no sign of stress coming from any points on the stretchers. Many of the students who tried using the linen had the same problems and eventually we had to stop selling it to students.

I tried to find out the cause of the problem and nothing came up. My only theory is that the linen tightened and was stretched to such an extreme degree under the sizing, that the fibres throughout the linen broke, and the entire fabric slackened. I wonder if this is a problem with linen that has been observed before, perhaps in cases where it's stretched too taut before being sized?

I've been told that the structure of linen is that the fibres have many small 'joints', which give elasticity but only up to a certain point, after which they will break.

Laura

Hi Brian,

Thank you so much for your quick and thorough response!

I should have clarified that I measure the glue by volume (50ml granules to 1 litre water) so I'm not sure how that translates to weight. The granules I use are very fine, like brown sugar, so I imagine the weight to volume ratio is quite high. When I make gesso I usually make the glue at 1:10 by volume instead, but I've found that for sizing that seemed too strong, so have opted for 3 x 1:20 layers (I'm not sure if layers present any issues in themselves!)

I decided to go for it on the linen and apply another layer of stronger size. I let the glue cool quite a bit before applying, so that it wouldn't soak in so much, which worked quite well. A preliminary bit of painting seems to be behaving more normally and I don't see any strikethrough which is a relief.

As you mentioned, this really tested the stretchers! I have experienced slight warping of the bars, but the plane of the linen is flat. I plan to re-stretch the paintings later anyway after transporting them, on new stretchers if necessary, so I hope I can fix that later.

All in all, the experience has been a lesson in the risks of swapping around materials and methods without doing a test first (and when in the countryside with limited materials available)! I think in the future I will stick with the robust cotton duck since it works very well for my purposes, and it seems I would need to spend even more money on linen to get an equivalent quality of weave.

Thank you so much for your help!

Laura


​Is there a reason you recommend Regalrez and an MSA varnish over the Liquitex Spray varnish, which I believe is water based? Many thanks for your helpful comments.

​Thank you. What is a Regalrez varnish?

​Thank you so much Ivan and Mirjam! I actually love the feel of painting on acrylic "gesso" and the marks I'm able to make, so this all gives me confidence that the paint is adhering, especially now that I'm moving up to better quality materials like the Golden gesso. 

I really appreciate your time,

Tony

​Also, the ad for Krylon listed a lot of surfaces it is appropriate for, but canvas is not one of them. Is it ok to use on canvas?

>Is that suggesting that tooth is on a microscopic level and not necessarily a tactile observation? Could a gesso be slick to the touch, but actually microscopically mechanically bind?

This would be it I guess.​ Few years ago I asked Sarah Sands (Hi Sarah, if you're reading this) about this and she told me „When thinking about ‘tooth’ in a ground you do not need to think about it as meaning a surface is rough to the touch or even having a pronounced texture. It can often be as subtle and simple as a surface being matte, which – when magnified– usually shows a fairly toothy terrain. It’s just a matter of scale, and really it’s that micro-texture which is critical.“ As for me, I've used Golden Gesso for few years and never had any issue with it so far.

If you want to increase tooth, they recommend adding Coarse Molding Paste or Pumice gel (https://goldenpaints.com/technicalinfo/technicalinfo_gesso) - I've never done this, though.  Also, I believe, that Golden Custom Lab could mix more toothy custom acrylic primer for you.

Or, if you want more tooth and it doesn't have to be Golden, try Lascaux Gesso - this is much more toothy, but also more absorbent.

Ivan

Thank you so much for your thorough and speedy answer, Brian! It’s lovely to have your sound advice – it’s been a very long research process trying to muddle my way through! I will research the cues you gave me.

Re. the choice of a flexible priming layer (the acrylic dispersion), it was just me being worried that the priming layer might contract and be stretched over the dome as it cured, so I was worried about cracking down the line. There isn’t much stress to the painting in fitting it into the jewellery as the support is thick enough to be rigid, and it’s not a push fit/solder but a screw fit.

Re. varnishing, the support is solid 22kt gold, circa 1mm thick, so there’s no mordant to worry about happily! The only reason the support is solid gold and not an insert is to keep the whole jewellery piece made of precious materials – it’s completely obscured by the painting, although the gold is visible from the back of the piece.

Yes, all the pieces are/will be varnished - it’s a tad convoluted however: the first set of paintings, without glass, were varnished with Gamvar when hard dry (I used a dental tool instead of a thumb given the scale!) as speed was important. Then the pandemic hit and the launch was set back anyway – so I now have the opportunity to put a more durable varnish on those pieces, given that they are 6 months cured, removing the Gamvar first. My current thinking after researching it best I can is that a high molecular weight polymeric varnish like Golden MSA or Conservar Polymeric Varnish would provide a more durable, and thicker, layer – I may then have to add a layer of Gamvar on top to try and restore its previous appearance…

The client is considering putting Sapphire glass over future pieces as a protective measure; in this case, I would still varnish them to saturate the appearance, using Gamvar as it’s not exposed to wear and tear and is purely an aesthetic decision.

Whether the sapphire glass would cause problems is another research question for me – I’d really appreciate your advice if you have time! Currently, I’ve got as far as this: it would be safe to add glass over the painting, spaced away from it, once hard dry and post Gamvar, as the oxygen in the paint film is sufficient to keep the curing process going, bouncing in and out of the paint film and being recycled. The dome wouldn’t be soldered in place, only a tight screw fit, so as far as creating a microclimate between the glass and the gold is concerned, I don’t know if there’d be any issues with trapping moisture – as there wouldn’t be any water in the paint film or support, and presumably as there’s no air gap no moisture can get in? I can’t find any examples of a sealed, non-porous support, non-aqueous medium painting – although I’m sure miniature portraits on copper have been placed in lockets behind glass.

Apologies for another long and rambling query! Thanks again for your time.

Ellie

Brian, my thoughts exactly. Of course, something like acidity might be fine for our stomach, but not for art. But I doubt that is where the problem lies. Thanks for your efforts! I am very curious if the anwer is simple or not.

And by the way: it turns out they use ptfe for baking paper, which seems fine up until 250 Celcius. Above that: cancer! And my oven does 275 Celcius, which I do regularly... ahem!

​What would you recommend to roughen it?   I've used a new, clean, kitchen scrubby, dedicated for this purpose in the past to god effect (it doesn't "slub up" sanding soft surfaces) but am open ot other methods.

Thanks so much, everybody. What a great forum this is!


My reservations about this product are confirmed here. I already told the student that brought me this stuff, that she should not use it as a painting medium. But I was hoping we could use this on our Art Academy as an envirementally friendlier cleaning agent. But now it seems you shouldn't even use it for that. Cold you tell me why not, George?

And Brian: I agree about this "But it's natural!"-thing :-) . How often do I tell my students nature can kill...

​Hi again! I was wondering as a follow-up (since I want to test my new priming methods) - is there an easy way to test the unboundness (or I guess boundness) of oil paint? 

I started to think today about the paper towels maybe being too abrasive to test with and tried rubbing the same painting I was stress-testing with a white fabric cloth and truly nothing came up. Possibly the faintest bit of color, but you wouldn't be able to find where it happened on the cloth later as it was such a minute amount. Compared to the paper towel which rubbed in the same area stains very clearly. 

Have I created a problem that's not there, and stress-tested it into damaging the painting? 

I found an easy way to test acrylic paint for this (allowing it to dry, then lightly cutting a grid into the dried paint film, placing tape on top, and then ripping that off), but I cannot find any tutorial for testing oil paints for this.

Thank you again, 

-Tony

Never heard of it, but I'm just a painter. Questions I'd ask are; how is it harmless?  Non toxic?  To what degree?  All natural certainly doesn't mean it's less dangerous.  Possibly it's less toxic claim relates to the fact that it's "non volatile"  which I take to mean far less volatile.  I don't know where the line is drawn in evaporation rates.  Truly non volatile would just say in the paint forever, but I doubt that's one of it's qualities.  If it was, I don't think you'd want it in the paint.  Interested to hear more about it.

Marc.​

​Thank you so much Matthew and Brian! 

I was wondering that about the paper towel test and in general as to what stress-testing is telling me about the work, or if I'm going too far to be reasonable. This is all premptive since (knock on wood) I haven't had an issue with paint coming off. I have a painting on the wall of my house from 10 years ago that is the same as the day I finished it. Most painting in my studio only have an issue if they've been carelessly stacked and have rubbed corners during moves. 

Brian, I have just upgraded all my paints. Another part of this was that I was still using several student grade paints (over the years I've slowly added tubes of better quality, but I finally took the plundge after the lightfast issue). 

So going forward I'm going to have a much better gessoing method and quality gesso, much better quality paints, and a bit more oil in the mix. Hopefully if there is an slight underbound issue, all of this will completely resolve it. 



​Thank you for the quick answer and the reading, George! I sometimes feel guilty of overcomplicating things, but your response dispersed most of my concerns.

Peter

​​Thanks a lot, Brian.

​Hi Marc, I am glad you added that. Thank you for letting me know

​​Thank you, Brian. There will be about 0.5% of resin in the paint, is it really that bad to add it? I like to read analyses of old paint media and from time to time resins are found in small quantities in works as old as Van Eyck's. I am asking because I've seen paint samples made by this recipes in 1962, they are in excellent condition.

I can't remember the source, but apparently feather dusters are to be avoided.  The little natural hooks on feathers used to lock together with their neigbours are not only abrasive, but can also catch on spurs, ridges and cracks in the paint.

Marc​

​Hi Brian, Thank you for your response and for reaching out to others as well. I am greatful for your efforts to shed light on this situation 

​Hi Brian, Thank you very much for your detailed response. I appreciate you taking the time to explain it to me! 

​Hi Ellen, I've noticed that sterling tarnishes faster - it's not a short term solution, but if you leave both points out in a humid environment, the sterling will brown quicker. Tomorrow I will do the smell test. You may know that one tests for gold vs. brass by rubbing the metal between your fingers and checking for a metallic odor (brass) or no odor (gold). Perhaps the small amount of copper in sterling will have an odor compared to pure silver?

​Thank you Koo and Brian. Sorry, Tom, I mispelled your name - but I did just order your book. 

I will experiment with some of the harder grounds that you mention, Koo. 

The silverpoint nibs I have in my possession were from a reputable silversmith here in town. it's just that that was 15 years ago and though I tried to label them in their respective stylus' my writing is now indicipherable. If I decide that the difference is cruciall to me for this project it will be easier to replace them from the same source (and keep better records) than to get involved in the complex questions of deciphering the content of the metal.

Thanks again to all.

Ellen

First and foremost, thank all of you for your informative responses.

You have given me some homework!

I should have mentioned that I do have experience in silverpoint. I have done a number of silverpoint drawings which were always executed on a panel prepared with traditional (white) chalk gesso. I always add 10% zinc white to my chalk filler – without changing the RSG to filler proportions. It works fine (no chipping) and I absolutely loved the tactile quality both of the gesso as well as the meditative process of drawing in silver. That's my silverpoint 101.

 

Additionally, I do have in my possession two silver points. One is pure silver, one is sterling. I don't know which is which. Any quick way to tell?

 

For this new project, from a tactile point of view, I would definitely prefer to use a traditional ground, if possible. I don't really like acrylic (because it's too plastic) but am trying to spread my wings. Overall, my main goal is to achieve a good contrast between the ground and the silver, which can later be enhanced by creating a good contrast between the ground and the highlights (using gouache, etc…). But the overall effect should be evanescent, so I'm not trying to get dark blacks.

 

Brian, I read the links you shared. There is a lot of information there to process. My main question after reading through the links was: is it the hardness of the mineral/additive elements in the ground that determines the darkness of the metal point stroke? Then I read Koo's response to my question where she emphasizes that, yes, it is. Obviously, there are many factors, but it's good to be aware of the most important ones.

 

Tony, thanks for your responses. I may try a RSG ground with zinc white + 10% terra verte (since that is the tint color I am envisioning for this project). But the terra verte powdered pigment I have (from a reputable color shop in Brussels, I live in Bruges) is not very saturated. I may try to obtain some different samples from Kremer Pigment (Germany)? I may try to obtain some bone ash while I am at it. And of course, some zinc white.

 

Koo, Thanks for all your information.

As noted above, I'd prefer to work with traditional grounds but am trying to experiment with other materials, too. My acrylic experiments were based on the third link from Brian which was a response to your earlier questions about Golden Pastel Ground vs Golden Silverpoint Ground. 

In both cases that I described, I tinted the Golden Acrylic Gesso or the Golden Silverpoint Ground with acrylic tube color because I had read on Kremer Pigments that real green earth dry pigments are iron II silicates which react poorly to acrylic dispersions. By adding tube colors it may have increased the plastic feel of both grounds? (I don't know) But in the case of the Pastel Ground that did not matter because it was superimposed over the tinted gesso. Yet I was surprised in the end to experience such a tactile difference between the two- the Golden Silverpoint Ground felt like smooth plastic and the Pastel Ground like sandpaper(!). Not at all sure I want to go that coarse (or that plastic, either). ;-)

Thanks to all.

Ellen Trezevant

Sorry, I forgot to add my name last time.

​My apologies.  I meant no disrespect.  I appreciate your taking the time to respond. No harshness felt. When it was suggested to me that I should look at this forum,  I see now, that perhaps, they felt I should contact a conservator.  Again, thank you.

​Thank you so much for your response Brian. My apologies again for incorrect posting. The article you recommend is terrific and reassuring regarding the nature of our materials. Exactly what I have been grappling with.

 I am so glad to hear your personal take on RSG! Great advice on the gesso. Thank you so much for taking the time to educate us on the craft. Maryam

​Hi there, Tom Mazzullo here, I've done some research into these questions and, although I'm not expert with these specific issues, I've tested all the materials you're using at least once and can respond with my own experience.

I think to answer at least some of your questions, you could use either acrylic or gouache for highlights over an acrylic gesso ground. Gouache would be water soluble after drying, and thus correctable. I would ask if you plan on varnishing your finished panels (I don't varnish metalpoints, but I know some artists use spray varnish or good quality fixatives)

For the other questions, about traditional RSG ground: to preserve the integrity of adhesion, do your best to keep the ratio of pigment/binder/vehicle the same. Adding 10% pigment means removing 10% chalk. In my experience, too much dry matter and the RSG ground can lose adhesion; too little and it flakes off the panel. RSG grounds are fickle, especially when you begin to apply a hard metal point to them. For increasing tooth in the preparations, you could try bone ash as an additive, say 50/50 chalk and bone ash - it's traditional, inert (wont affect metal cast or tarnish), and colorless (maybe a slight graying of tint). Be sure to first grind it in a mortar, sometimes the grit can be uneven. Lastly, instead of chalk, consider using white pigment - my RSG grounds with pure zinc or titanium oxide make luscious grounds - I don't add chalk or bone ash. It's my favorite ground for paper or panel.



​Marc, thank you so much for pointing out the Jonathan Linton White Test. As my husband Nick, a fellow painter, says "worth many prostrations."  You have been super helpful! As I try to figure things out, I am heartened by Claude Monet's "Color is my daylong obsession, joy, and torment."

Gamblin products haven't been available until recently in my country.  Import of oil painting mediums by air is judged problematic. So to get to the point, I havent tried them. However I have heard their Galkyds are low yellowing.  They're almost all certainly lower yellowing than linseed oil.  

Jonathan Linton did a 5 year whites yellowing test which can be found online. Each white was only one sample however so it's possible that one sweeze from the tube could have variations in results due to oil separation.  Also those paints might now have different formulations.  The Radiant white yellowed considerably in the thick , but not much in the thin.  It looks a lot like loose oil from the top of the tube, so I don't completely trust the sample.  Can't help much beyond that I'm afraid.

Marc​

​YES!!! Yikes! That is exactly the paint I used! Thank you for sharing your experience. I am thinking of using Gamblin's Radiant White for the background of the next series. Do you think all Galkyd mediums will yellow? Thanks, Maryam

Was it Maimeri Puro Titanium white?  Because that's the colour with which I had the unexpected degree of yellowing. (Abet in a slightly gloomly studio.)  I didn't mention it by name previously because it was so many years ago and I didn't want to presume it still had that same trait.​

​Thank you Marc! The fancy Italian oil paint says purely Titanium Dioxide as the pigment. Interesting about the varnish not being the culprit and the Galkyd medium possibly responsible. I completely agree with you about "Damned if you do, damned if you don't". That is right on!

Maryam

I doubt it's the varnish.

The Neo Meglip will be an alkyd which might cause a little yellowing, but not I imagine to the degree of "disaster." 

Do you know if the titanium white is solely titianum oxide without any zinc white?  Many years past I tested a series of whites and was surprised how much a titianum white bound in poppy or safflower had yellowed in a room not exposed to much sunlight.  It was a single pigment artists range proporting to be of highest quality.  Although the painted sample was lean I believed there might have been an very slight and even surface float of poppy oil in drying. This was not present in the titanium/zinc mixes, the lead/zinc safflower mixes, or the lead in safflower.  The only sample that yellowed more was a lead/zinc primer in linseed. 

Zinc oxide seems to reduce yellowing.  Unfortunately it also increases embrittlement.  Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Marc.​

​Thank you for the link Brian. I just read it. Very informative! My apologies, I responded to your storage and medium question on the main page of the forum. Sorry about that. I am still trying to figure out the yellowing issue. 

​Brian and Matthew, just a quick addition on using RSG. I like the strong adhesion of the linen to the maple board. The one time I tried acrylic dispersion size, it may not have been the correct material, but there were air bubbles. I didn't get the strong, even, adhesion I was looking for.

Thank you guys so much for your help and contribution to the forum! This place is a real trove of treasure :)​

Koo,

The varnish was self-leveling, and I don't have any visible brushstrokes. The varnish did bead up on the gold a bit in places, so I had to brush it out a bit to get it to stick. 

The icon is 8x10"; I used a 1-1/2" flat wash synthetic "sable" brush to apply to gloss over everything. I waited 24 hours between coats. I used a #12 pointed round synthetic to apply to matte to the tempera-painted figure so I could still load a decent amount of varnish but have control applying it methodically. I filled in the figure in sections logical to the composition, trying to keep a wet edge as much as possible. 

The Golden technician repeatedly told me to apply very thin coats, which I aimed for. I loaded the brush, and wiped it well before applying, especially for the matte. I didn't want to overdo it. On my test piece, a thick application of the matte resulted in cloudiness, even over the gloss.

Brian

Hi Brian, thank you for the response. I will look into some acrylic options.

Best, Kimberly 

​Koo, thank you so much for your answer (and for your book!). To clarify, this is the Polymer Varnish I'm using:

https://www.goldenpaints.com/technicalinfo/technicalinfo_polvar

It is not GAC 500, or gel medium, but a removable varnish.

It is certainly the least worse option I've encountered:

1. Water-based: no solvents to exacerabte blooming (FAM), it's easy to clean up, and has no fumes. As water-based, it is crystal clear and will not yellow or darken.

2. Removable/reversible (with a mild ammonia solution like windex). The finished surface can be cleaned with a mild soap and water solution.

3. Provides mechanical protection (more than just the paint, less than spar urethane, which some iconographers use).

4. The gloss over the gold is the best varnish I've seen yet. On my sample, the difference is barely discernable between the varnished and unvarnished gold.

5. The matte is exceptionally matte; better than any other varnish I've seen. It is almost as flat as a nourishing layer.

6. This varnish is vapor-permeable and stays somewhat open, allowing the egg to continue to cure and polymerize, even under the varnish.

To prevent the matting agent from becoming cloudy, I need to first coat it with gloss to seal it. This is fine, since I can cover the entire icon with gloss to protect the gold and seal the paint at the same time. Then, I can varnish only the painted figure with matte. 

I varnished an icon this way over the weekend, and I am very pleased with the result! The gold looks exceptional--better than any other varnish I've used. The figure (tempera) is very matte and looks very similar to the original painted surface.

On my test sample, I didn't have trouble with paint lifting with normal application, even though it is a waterbased varnish. I did push it, and was able to lift and move newer paint (a few days old), but only if I really scrubbed it and abused it, something I won't do to a finished artwork. The icon I varnished has been curing for 5 months, but there were a couple of spots that I touched up a week ago. No paint lifted, moved, or bloomed during the varnishing.

Thanks again for your helpful response, and please let me know if I'm overlooking something. Otherwise, I think I'll continue using this varnish. It's the most promising and least-worst option I've encountered so far.

Brian Matthew Whirledge

​Thank you for all your responses! To answer some of the questions posed; as seen in the attached image of my previous comment, the polyester surface of the panel has become visible with the cross hatch/adhesive tape test. So the problem is mostly the adhesion to the acm panel's surface with the first priming layer. Not an inter layer bonding issue. The reason I applied that number of layers was to create a sufficient barrier between the eventual oil paint film and the substrate. Or is this not necessary? Can the bond between the primer and substrate be weakened by certain painting practices (application of solvent, oil,..etc) ?


Concerning my situation as present. What exactly am I risking by continuing with these panels to paint on with oils? Is the not so good bond between primer and substrate an issue I should be concerned with? What kind of problems may arise further down the line if I were to ignore this? Even though the adhesion is not ideal, the primer is not easily delaminating, I can not peel it off, etc.. so I thought it relevant to ask. Also the paintings are meant for indoor hanging.


Thank you,

Tom

​Dear Matthew,

Thank you for your answer. Any ideas on how to salvage the situation? Is there anything I can do to improve adhesion or do to the panels so to improve the ground for oil painting? It's a big batch of panels I prepared. Or is there nothing left to do but to reprime the backs of the panels?  I added an image of the cross hatch test, showing different types of damage by 3 different sticky tapes. To the far right is the result of the ducktape and some hard palette knife scraping.

Kind regards,

Tom

82B47451-F814-4415-A205-4B5A92655C42.jpeg


​Thank you!

Hi Matthew, thank you for your response. I am trying to learn more about linen preparation, and I was alarmed when I read that PVA priming could disintegrate. I wanted to check here to see if there was new research on the suitability of PVA as a substitute for RSG. I see now that there are many forms of PVA, and I have reached out to W&N to clarify to which form they were referring.

I also have a question about linen sized with RSG if you could help:

How quickly does RSG sized linen shrink and expand when exposed to humidity outside of the acceptable range? Could a few hours of exposure lead to surface cracking, or is the main concern days or weeks of exposure over the course of decades?

Thank you for your help.

Best,

Kimberly 

​*Correction: Winsor & Newton advised against PVA for priming. I took them to mean the sizing, as the statement was within an article about sizing and preparing canvas. I would like to make that clarification so as to not misrepresent them.*

Regardless, if PVA could disintigrate as a primer, would the same concern not also hold for its use as a size?

Thank you for the answers! 

​The stand oil was not contaminated or adulterated as far as I know. Maybe it really is just a bad batch. Anyway, glad to hear that the varnish is ok. 

Péter

Out of curiosity, is there a certain reason why a smooth ground is not ideal? Does this have to do with how the gouache adheres to the surface? I prefer to use smoother surfaces and haven't had any issues (so far!) with the paint cracking or being detached from the surface.​

Thanks for the input!​

This is very helpful and instructive. I'd like to push a little further for clarification. 

1. "​Zinc oxide has only been shown to be problematic bound in drying oils, not acrylic dispersions/emulsions like the one used in the SW product." Can you please clarify whether: a) Considered safe: Zinc within acrylics is considered suitable for use and conservation purposes based on chemical theory and/or evidence; or b) Considered inconclusive: No significant problems have been detected but there is insufficient research to draw conclusions.

2. "DTM Bonding Primer by Sherwin Williams has been tested and found to be a suitable primer for ACM" (from an older question.) In tracing back I found the source of the testing referred to in several answers was this article: https://justpaint.org/painting-on-dibond/ The rationale for 'testing' of four selected products was confined to their suitability for use on Dibond as a primer. The author did not examine ingredients or ask questions about conservation, such as aging properties/ brittleness, cracking, delamination over time... Obviously in this case it would need to be based on what is known about ingredients, additives, etc. My question: where conservation is a strong consideration - is there sufficient evidence-based rationale to use these newer products? 

Thanks Brian, very helpful distinction. I wonder whether that distinction might be worth an edit to your technical guide when that is due because many artists are seeking to eliminate zinc in all its forms due to lack of clarity on this topic. 

And apologies - after I posted this I used your search facility to find my question on the forum to check for response and it didn't show up. Thinking it failed to post I repeated it. Please feel free to delete the duplicate. ​

Thanks Brian. Of course. Sorry, I'm new to the forum and still finding my way around. Those resources are precisely the kind of material I've been searching for. ​

Hello Brian,

I wish I could.  I went back to try and find something but i couldnt.  The closes thing was the 6 coats for wood in the Meyer book refering to the cennini method.  Im starting think that the number 6-9 might have been for panel painting and I am incorrectly mixing it with application for linen.  I apologize I know these kinds of errors have to muddy up the waters heavily for conservators.  

Best Regards,

Hector  ​

Hello Brian,

I have to search for it through the books I have because I cant remember the source right now.  Thanks for taking the time to answer. I am looking forward to what else you have to add on.  ​

I discovered once in priming a darker rough weaved natural coloured linen, that the lead priming was thinner in the weave high spots. This allowed the the tone of the canvas to show through somewhat on the top of all the little lumps.  I wondered because of this, whether the old practice of using earth tones (somewhat matching the tonal scale) scraped across to fill in the weave and flatten the surface, was originally used to prevent this broken white/grey priming effect. With the lead priming placed on top of this, it prevents the thicker and whiter interstices of just using lead white..  One imagines it was then quickly noticed by the painters the useful visual effect of the final, but more uniform pale grey.

Marc.​

​Thanks Brian  That's good to hear; much appreciated. I will be careful to ensure reasonable thickness in the overlayers once I start the actual painting so as not to have my mid tones melt away as the general transparency increases. Cheers, Jenny

​Sorry about all the typos above...!

​Thank you so much for the exhaustive answer, I am obliged!

Peter

Thank you Mirjam! I just have one more question. Since i cant get any fixatives with B 72 component,as Brian adviced above, is it ok to use the Charcoal Pastel Concentrated fixative from Talens ( It contains​ Colourless resins, ethanol ) ? And then to work over that with acrylics? Or if it is not chemicaly ok and compatible , is it ok to put this Concentrated fixative and then to use Gouache maybe..? 

Thank you Brian ! The only problem is that i cant get this fixative with B 72 in my country... Is it chemicaly ok and safe  to put an acrylic matte medium over this graphite pencil drawing? I am not so concerned about smearing it , as i am about will it be chemicaly ok, so that acrylic will stick to it and the drawing will last? 

Thank you once more​

Thanks for all of your comments. They are very helpful.

I found a "barely visible" ~1" tall "RM" stamped on the back of the canvas, near a corner of the stretcher. Does this identify the company that sold the canvas or the company that put the canvas on the stretcher, or??

By the way. I had an email conversation with a person at the Rijksmuseum and they have traditionally allowed artists to come into the museum and copy paintings.

I found a European company that includes the Leyster "Baffoon" in their current list of "hand painted" reproductions. There is apparantly interest in Leyster's work because she might have made the painting to earn credibility as a good artist by copying Hals work. 

Instead, the "male" establishment, at the time, used the her copy to determine that she could only do a good job copying other artist's work. Then again, it is not an exact copy. She did her own thing with some of the decorations on the hat and cloak.

Her original works now resides in world class museums around the world, so "she" was pretty good.

I suspect this story along with the current interest in early women artists increases the interest in this painting, even today.

I am very curios about why anyone would pay for a copy of Leyster's "Baffoon" after it was verified to be a copy of Hals' "Baffoon" in 1910. I suppose, until Hals' "Baffoon" was displayed in the Louvre in 1984, Leyster's "Baffoon" was the only game in town, but I cann't imagin, of all of the paintings I might want a copy of, I would least want a copy of a painting that I knew to be a copy.

Your thoughts are appreciated.​

Thanks for your comments.

My whole purpose is to NOT misrepresent what the painting is.  It is a copy of a Leyster copy. Whether it is 10, 50, or 100 years old would be nice to estimate but not critical. Its future is as a decorative arts piece in someones home or office. 

I use these projects as an opportunity to learn and all of the comments I get from MITRA members are valuable to me.

Thanks again for your help.

Thank you Matthew. 

I suspected the painting was a copy of the "Baffoon" from the Rijksmuseum. I think the "original Baffoon", was acquired by the Louvre in 1984. 

The dark khaki color of the canvas and the characteristics of the tacks suggests to me the copy was made prior to 1940.

Is there a book or class on dating paintings using the characteristics of the canvas and mounting materials?​

About the increase in volume/weight. The Dutch text in the e-mail is:

"de lijnolie zet bij droging 17% in volume uit". This can be translated as: "The linseed oil expands by 17% in volume when drying”.

Basically Mr. Keune’s point is (if I understand him correctly): the initial surface energy of oil paint is low, the surface energy of acrylics is made low ("This primer has a low surface tension, so that ordinary oil paint can easily flow out on it. This also applies to most acrylic paints where additives give the paint a low surface tension".) However, the surface energy of oil paint increases as the paint ages. This creates problems with adhesion in the long term.

I asked him indeed, by referring Yonah Maor’s article about delamination (2008), if this might be due to the presence of zinc in the paint film. He says: “Until now I have disregarded zinc white. Zinc white reacts quickly with fatty acids from the oil and forms zinc soaps that can settle between soil and paint layers. This can cause paint coat delamination. This problem can be seen in some of Van Gogh's paintings. But the danger of this should not be exaggerated. The fear of this has meant that the Belgian manufacturer Claessens of oil-primed linen could no longer export its product to the USA.”

Further: he says that by adding casein in small amounts you can increase the surface energy of acrylics, and thus evade adhesion-problems in the future. Adhesion in the beginning is based on van der Waals-forces (I guess that’s why casein is chosen?). After a while on polar attraction. Sounds logical to me.

But although I’m really interested in the more theoretical side of it all, this is also leading me down the rabbithole (I haven’t painted in a month, considering and reading all kinds of articles, but also learning a lot from George O’Hanlon’s Best Practices-webinar). For example I think: “but maybe failure in adhesion is also influenced by the size of the canvas, large canvasses experiencing more adhesion-problems than smaller one (like the ones I paint on), which is maybe the reason why Gottsegen recommends no oil on acrylics when the surface >2,4 square metres. And maybe there is a difference between acrylic as a layer, and acrylic as a size, which is brushed into the weave, not really creating a film (I only use it as a size, not as a ground, which is what Mr. Keune seems to talk about).” And so on. And I realize I’m only guessing.

To be clear, I haven’t experienced any adhesion-problems with my Golden acrylic-size. I just wanted to know the (very) best practice. And indeed, mounting a canvas might be a much more effective solution, certainly for a small format. So, if there’s no clear answer to it, then I’ll just continue painting, and see what the future brings :) (Nevertheless I thought it an interesting product, and I will try make my own, as Mr. Keune recommended)

Thanks,

Brecht Koelman

I contacted Pieter Keune about casein-acrylic. Here is a selection of a few answer that may be relevant. But please add or comment, since I'm only an artist with limited knowledge about Physics and Chemistry. I understand what he says, but lack the knowledge of a broader perspective.

The text is translated from Dutch.

Fine if you post my answers on the university forum. I have fond memories of my visit to the conservation and restoration department at the invitation of Prof. Hilton Brown in 1988. He had previously visited my department in Maastricht. I heard from my daughter Katrien, head of research at the Rijksmuseum Amsterdam, that she has been invited for next year.

Pure casein becomes brittle, but added in not too large quantities to an acrylic will not cause many problems.

Addition of a casein solution to an acrylate produces two effects.

First, it increases the surface tension of the dried film. An acrylate primer (often incorrectly called acrylgesso) is increasingly being applied as a primer suitable for all techniques. On the market as a universally prepared canvas. This primer has a low surface tension, so that ordinary oil paint can easily flow out on it. This also applies to most acrylic paints where additives give the paint a low surface tension. But paints based on water, egg tempera and water-based oil colors, for example, will bead. The paint does not flow sufficiently and that is at the expense of color strength. A casein-acrylic substrate is therefore suitable for water-based paints. Namely, water has a high surface tension and flows well on surfaces with a high surface tension and poorly on those with a low surface tension, compare a drop of water on a greasy surface.

Note; oil paint ages and also acquires a higher surface tension over time. Oil on an oil-primed linen is therefore always preferred.

A second effect is that casein acts as a crosslinker for acrylic. That is, acrylic molecules are interconnected by the casein. In practice this means that the plastic substance acrylic turns into an elastic substance. An impact on a universally primed linen causes permanent deformation, while a linen prepared with casein acrylic springs back. The effect as a crosslinker is also the reason that a prepared mixture thickens. It is then recommended to prepare the mixture yourself shortly before use.

and further (after I asked some questions):

When acrylic paint came onto the market here in 1964, it was perceived as a miracle paint. Dry quickly and then the real work with oil paint could quickly begin. A few decades later, the paint of many oil paintings in our national collection started to fall off. Now that we have a better understanding of the way in which oil paint ages, it also becomes clear that oil paint becomes much more polar over a period of 7 to 10 years, thus achieving a higher surface tension. The manufacturers have tried to overcome the mismatch that develops over time between oil paint and the acrylic primer by adding more chalk to the acrylic. Slightly more than the CPVC so that some oil is absorbed and the chalk chemically combines with the fatty acids from the oil. Time will tell whether this will be enough.

The other approach is to introduce a component in a ground layer that ensures a higher surface tension. When applying the oil paint, the adhesion is mainly based on van der Waals forces, later on polar attraction.

It is unknown to me that acrylic ground has a favorable synergistic effect on the layer of oil paint. On the contrary. I dealt with the case of an artist whose oil paint on the acrylic ground was severely cracked. In short: the linseed oil expands by 17% in volume when dried. The acrylic is deformed by the drying oil paint. The acrylic deforms plastically. The oil paint then shrinks, but the deformed acrylic no longer returns elastically. Due to the tensions now created, the dried oil paint cracks.

In principle, the oil from the paint does not penetrate through a preparation layer of casein acrylic in the canvas. The fact that some oil is absorbed into the surface layer is only beneficial.

A casein paint dries under high tension. Such a paint can only be applied on a very solid surface. But the protein molecules in the casein-acrylic ground also function as connections between the acrylic molecules. They crosslink. This means we no longer have two separate materials next to each other. Compare the function of sulfur in the vulcanization of natural rubber.

A casein-acrylic ground certainly does not make the linen stiff. The canvas now gives a certain amount of counter pressure to the brush. It springs back when pressed. That does have some influence on the brush stroke.

After the corona-time, I will go to the factory to take a closer look at this ARA product that was not created with my cooperation. It seems to me that it has a limited shelf life.

​thank you Brian!  This was very helpful!

​Thank you for your expertise, Martin.

I errored. The planks are exactly 1/2" thick. I attached photos.

I am not an expert on evaluating dried glue, but I put a drop of water on a spot of dried glue on the back of one of the boards. In a couple of minutes it became sticky but did not dissolve completely.

The addition of heat cause the water soaked spot to dissolve immediately allowing me to easily scrape the spot down to bare wood. Heat also caused other glue areas to bubble up immediately. 

I suspect the planks were attached with hide glue and nails, but your expertise would be appreciated.

I had to shave a minimum amount from the mitered corners to get them as square as possible, so I cannot assess the glue used in the joints. I used steel mending brackets on the back of the corner joints to minimize the affect of the slight bowed and warped frame boards during reglueing. Getting the corner joints "perfect" was impossible. But, after reglueing, the frame looks very good.

I am concerned stress from the warped and bowed frame boards will cause the joints to fail over time. I plan to insert a wooden dowel in the thick part of the frame near the outer edge of each corner for added strength. 

Should I strengthen the inside of the corner joints with a bracket? I have considered countersinking a small metal mending bracket across the joint using flat head screws to keep it flush with the back of the frame boards. Your expertise and suggestions will be appreciated.

The frame seems to be very strong, so I don't plan to replace the backing boards. I typically use hide glue for my repairs.

Any help is appreciated. 

Have a great day and stay safe!

Frame Backing Board.jpgBoard Back with water drop on glue.jpgGlue spot after water removal.jpgGlue spot after water heat and scrape.jpg

Ah the water content, that is a great point. ​

​sorry, it posted before I could add my final photo. This is the one with the scuff on the actual painting 0E3C7C78-7E53-4451-A141-10DD749913FC.jpeg

​Thank you for your expertise and timely reply. Unfortunately I've just now seen this. I was waiting for an email notification that never arrived. I'm hoping you'll have the patience to answer one last question.... 

I have since stumbled across the same advice given online over several forums, but I'm quite certain it's coming from the same source. That is, if I prepare a traditional ground of RSG and bole on panel (not primed with shellac), and gild and burnish the ground, this source claims the gilded surface can then be varnished (they recommend MSA), and then coated with Golden GAC 200 before working on the high-polish, gold field with either acrylic or oils. Just wondering what your thoughts are on this. I'm understading the varnish is to protect the gold from the acrylic polymer and the polymer is to protect the varnish from the solvents? What I'm liking about this approach is that it allows me to work reductively with oils (liquin/sansodor) and does not appear to be dissolving the varnish? I'm also wondering if there is a better varnish choice as your response mentioned I should stay away from MSA as undercoat because it would make a conservators nightmare. 

Also, what are your thoughts on gluing a linen gauze over the panel before applying gesso? I noticed this is a traditional approach in iconography. From what I've seen the linen is soaked in a solution of RSG 13% and can be applied to help with cracking etc. before proceeding with gesso. 



​Thank you so much for the quick response here Brian. 

T

I have found that the smooth surface of a Aluminium Composite Panel (coal coated with a white polyester finish) is smooth and slick so perhaps it is the MDF is not smooth enough, or there is a smoother finish with a sprayed application of primer?

Thank you Brian and Koo! I forgot that I had posted this question and am pleased to see your detailed responses, and caring recommendations regarding safety. It's time for me to try a few more gesso application experiments. Cheeers. ​Take good care : ) - eli

​Thank you Mirjam, that's very useful. I will try that next time!

​Hello,

I have and i am still experimenting with B72..and i would like to share what i found and ask some questions as well.

I am using 10% B72 in ethanol and i have been primarily testing on correctly tempered yellow ochre,since i think is the most frequently used pigment..

I have painted rectangles with the pigment and left them at various time periods to cure,12hrs, 9 days (wanted for a week but couldnt find the time) and for two weeks.

There was a control not varnished and a part varnished with Gamvar. I used Gamvar because i know it causes foggy spots if the ET is not cured..just to see the layers needed with B72 and if i understood correctly then OMS solvents dont dissolve B72?

I have applied B72 with a brush and have also sprayed it. With the brush i have applied 1/2/5 layers.

The results where the following:

12hrs there were foggy parts for the 1/2 layers and less for the 5

For the 9/14 days less foggy spots and increase in colour saturation as the layers increase.

I have sprayed B72 only on the 2 week old paint..and on this rectangle used afterwards Gamvar and Artisans Water based varnish (AWV). This rectangle was sprayed in two and five layers. I had covered half after spraying the two layers and continued up to 5. What i had observed was that spraying doesnt cause any colour resaturation compared to the brush,it retains the matt appearance from B72,guess since it forms a more superficial coating. Also where i had covered half of the rectangle there was a built up of B72 and formed a foggy line...

I had then left it and the following day varnished with AWV. This caused colour resaturation and eliminated the foggy line. Then I had tested Gamvar. The 2 layer spraying didnt offer much protection the B72 was uneven and spots appeared which seems that we were spraying a very low amount. The 5 layer did offer protection but i dont know maybe the solvent in Gamvar does affect B72 since there were brush marks on the coating. The colours didnt become saturated but retained the overall matt look form B72 when sprayed.

B72 gives horrible results on gold leaf placed using polyment. The gold becomes foggy and if there is dust or something it gives spots everywhere.

Now for the questions..

1. Is it normal for the B72 solution to look foggy while in the container after the 10% conc was prepared? Foggy solution depends on the concentration?

2. If B72 becames concentrated on the painting it becames foggy? Thats the only explanation i can think about for the foggy line but then again..increasing the layers caused less of this effect.Especially when applied with a Brush. I forgot to say that on the sprayed test i also brushed a strip of B72 and gave similar effects like the AWV.

3. What varnish would you suggest placing on top of B72 coating. The varnish should form a hard coating. What worries me is that people are not careful and when cleaning and taking care of icons they put too much efford. B72 is relatively soft as a coating. I searched for various varnishes,liquitex,golden maimeri. I know i need to learn about the solvent compatibily but what about the hardness of the final coat. Does anyone have any experience /suggestions?

I apologise for the long text! Thank you!

​Thank you for the answers to slowing the drying rate. I have noticed quite a variability in the drying rates of several brands of the same pigment. I will do further testing of different paint manufacturers to find those with less dryers added. A very good suggestion.


​On another thought you are probably correct in saying it has something to do with physics. On a similar but unrelated subject. When a concrete slab is poured, it appears rough at first, but after it is trowled over several times the water rises to the surface. I think the act of moving a smooth blade over the surface causes the denser particles to settle, allowing the less denser vehicle to rise (in this case water or oil).

​  Thank you for your response. It seems to confirm what I suspected as I used a palette knife. I did a test sample from 2 years ago with several pigments in oil on an acrylic ground/canvas. I found that with thin palette knife applications there was no oil accumulation on the paint surface (less gloss), whereas with quite thick impasto there was oil dried on the surface (glossy and more yellowing). It appeared that when thicker paint was applied, there was a correlation to more oil rising to the surface.

  I wonder if the acrylic ground could absorb excess oil from the thinner paint, whereas with a thicker application the excess oil could not be absorbed and consequently rose to the surface. When this thick white paint (titanium and 2 flake whites) was broken open it was bright white on the interior, and either slightly yellow on the surface(titanium) or very yellow (both flake whites).

  I revisited a post by Sarah Sands on the yellowing of oils,  https://justpaint.org/on-the-yellowing-of-oils/ . Golden Paint found that a small addition of beeswax (about 3%) prevented the oil separating. I will see if this works.

 

​Thank you for your response, especially about the paint being underbound. This would explain why certain artists work looks dry and lifeless. Could this be due to the collection of dust into the porous oil paint that have not been varnished? From this observation I assume it is better to add stand oil to the paint if it is not varnished.

​Thank you very much for your opinion. It helps my nerves, as I move forward! Vita brevis, ars longa

​Thank you Brian for your explanation. I appreciate both yours and George's thoughts on this.

Just to be clear I wasn't thinking of mixing a fugitive or borderline lightfastness pigment with a stable inorganic one. I was thinking more of giving a small boost to pigments like PY74 (which are already good) in terms of lightfastness so it's closer to say PY154 in how little it changes with exposure to UV light.

While PR254 is already more lightfast than other pigments I thought mixing it with PR101 if needed might help a little :)


​George, thank you for the quick response.

I am a little confused by what you said here:

"Artists can create these types of mixtures, but it does require advanced knowledge of the compatibility of individual organic and inorganic pigments, many of which are presently not known, and must be tested."

I understand that this was an issue especially with pigments used in oil paints in the past, but I thought that all modern oil, acrylic and watercolour pigments could be mixed without any issues? (With perhaps the exception of zinc in oils!). I can't remember reading anything about any issues with mixing say PY42 with PY74 or PR101 with PR254. Surely most painters end up with mixes of multiple pigments all the time?

Can you explain why this is problematic please?

Thanks,
Richard

​Thanks so much. I run the paintingworkshop at an art academy, and making paint itself is but a small part of it, but I feel I should know what happens.


And like I said, every now and then something happens that I don't have under control. Like the last time when a student made zink white, and it turned very ropey/stringy. And we want our oil paint to be short, right?


I'll try the aluminum stearate, perhaps that works. Any indication on how much I should add to the oil?

Hi –

OP here. Thank you for the quick and detailed response. Greatly appreciated! Although your response was not the go-ahead I would have liked to receive, it gave good information so I can make an informed decision. I work small on ACM, do not varnish, keep detailed records of materials, and generally frame with UV museum glass. None of this is foolproof, as I have no control of what happens to a painting after it leaves my studio.

I will explore alkyd medium additions, as you suggest. I will also try the MSA additions, to satisfy my own curiosity, to see which (MSA or alkyd) actually is better in reconstructing the Parrish glazes.

MITRA, you are the best!

DebAZ

​I understand what you are saying Brian, but could I ask if the addition of Acrylic would help reduce the rigitidy of oil paint films to the point of cracking after cross-linking for many many years?

From what I understood the process continues for all drying and semi-drying oils until the paint film becomes very brittle and can crack.

I would have throught they something that could be added to paint films to redure or stop this from happening would be very beneficial?

​Hello,

The whitening shown on the photograph is similar yes to what has happened on my panels but also on the icon. If i get the chance i can try and upload some photographs. It is similar but in some ways..in the case of ochre it took the appearance of seriously under tempered pigment or a fresco like appearance. It was the same for the terra verde pigment as well. I also noticed that the flesh tones had changed then. They were orange like and then turned "colder" in terms of hue,the redness got lost. 

I was wondering about the process of ET curing?  I have read some of your questions posted in the Natural Pigments forum. Loss of water,temperature and light might contribute. I am not sure about light since some of the pigments are light sensitive and change hue.  In the case of icons i am thinking that  if left to cure i think  they would have been protected from light. They also wouldn't have been exposed since alot of insects etc tend to become attracted to the egg content of the paintings. So that leaves loss of water?

If that is the case,does speeding up that process helps in the overall curing?

What is the most accurate way to check if ET has cured? 

Thank you

​Thank you for replying. I am currently experimenting using ethanol as my B72 solvent. I am using this because i think that due to its fast  evaporating  time it will cause less damage to the ET layer. I am doing these experiments on ET paint that has cured over 2 years,over weeks,days even hours...extreme but i need to know how it behaves..I am applying B72 with a brush..but i am planning to spray it as well..

Well i started with 4% that caused abit of whitening on the fresh ET that was left for 3-4 days,i dont remember its effect on the fully cured one,i think it just  maintains the overall matte appearance.

I then used 10% . This gives abit more saturation to the paint but not like gloss varnish. If more layers are applied on top, the saturation increases. 

For the ET which is fairly fresh..i used different *Tempering* ratios if thats correct.. Over tempered, Under tempered and correctly tempered. There was saturation of the colours but i am not yet sure ...i need to experiment more..i think there was some whitening on some of the colours. I haven't tested all the pigments in my palette yet. My fear is with yellow ochre..usually that is the pigment that caused alot of problems when i had  varnished  some of the icons. It turned white!

These results i think ,don't offer much yet since i believe that maybe some time should pass and see how these layers behave on the relatively fresh ET. They should be done on different pigments as well. Now i am just trying to see the effect depending on the egg yolk content.

 

Thank you for your swift response!

Sincerely, Maria Marino​

​Thank you for the photographs,I have actually tried practicing the 1:1 ratio and it made alot of difference. I guess ET as a technique needs alot of time and practice to get used to it. 

Following my original question on Paraloid B72. I have prepared the 4% solution. I will be trying on left over paint as advised. If i understood correctly B72 provides isolation of the paintings and then the surface can be coated with any varnish of choice? Independent of the solvent that it contains?

If that is the case 4% B72 provides enough isolation for successive varnish coating? Is one layer of 4% B72 enough? Or should i make it more concentrare if i will be applying only one layer?

Thank you

Ok, I'll try to find a muller and see if there anre finer dust.
Thank you!

Hi Brian! Thanks for the quick reply.
The answer was great​ even if it not a "do it this way and you'll be fine" kind of thing.
I just wanted to be sure I wasn't doing anything that was dead wrong.

I did try and mix the marble dust with oils, but I'm finding the results to be underwhelming.
The mixture is too coarse. I can literally feel the grains on my brush.
I bought the finest dust i could find, and it seemed really fine.
Is it a matter of spending more time grinding the dust into the oil?
I'm only using a spatula, as I don't have access to a muller.

​Thank you. 

Can you please explain what CPVC has to do with fat over lean?

Also, you wrote "This assumes that subsequent layers are similar to those beneath them." Similar in what ways?

 Finally, what determines whether an oil paint is low or high absorption?


Again, many thanks for your thoughts and expertise.

Great! Thank you!​

I see, good to know.
How thick or thin should that layer of titanium be?

And how long should I wait before painting on top of the titanium white? Assuming that I'm using paint straight out of the tube.
Sometimes I'll make the under painting thining my paints with a small ammount of OMS, but I'd imagine that wouldn't be a good practice in this case.

thank you very much!

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Mitra

Please excuse the delay in responding to the very helpful answers to my original question - dealing with the damages from Hurricane Delta is taking a lot of my time.

Thanks to Brian Baade,Matthew Kinsey and George O’Hanlon, you have provided a couple more possible strings for my bow in the hunt for the best medium for me.

​I am grateful for all the help and information you have given me. I will try and follow through!

Thank you!

​Thanks Brian. I'll try out these suggestions.

Hello,

Thank you for your quick responses and all the helpful information i will try and follow through. I have another question,regarding the time of varnishing. Sadly people do not have the patience to wait for the ET to polymerise and then varnish it,they are abit demanding.. That is my main problem.

From where i studied the teachers taught us to use olifa/ boiled linseed oil to seal the icons which I didn't like at all. I experimented using poppy oil instead and then sealing on top,after complete drying with a varnish. Sometimes it worked but there were also failures where everything turned foggy. I used damar varnish as well but it is hard to work with. Sometimes it doesn't dry at all.

I thought of adding some of the varnish that i will be using for varnishing, in the egg emulsion. I am guessing its presence will reduce any after effects when using the varnish after a week or. I read that for Tempera grassa they used oil and varnish with wine. I am planning to experiment,i have no idea what will happen.

Is there something else that can be used for ET left to cure for a week or so? I am trying W&N Artisans water based varnish,it didn't cause and problems but its a weak varnish i think. I have also tried Gamvar varnish but it caused FA efflorescence.

Dear Koo Schadler you have mention that you use a wax medium to counter uneveness? Can you explain abit further on that please? Also when you mention that tempering well does not cause FA efflorescence,what do you mean? During my studies i have seen different ways of painting ET. Some people used to paint like watercolour,others used a very thick paste like mixture to start the icons,one or two layers were sufficient to seal the area as opposed to the 10+ layers of the watercolour like painters.

Thank you


​​Two more questions then, since I want to prepare a new batch of panels, how much turpentine should I use to dilute the 120 ml tin of Old Holland Cremser White (industrial lead carbonate ground with cold-pressed linseed oil) that I bought from my art supply store? And secondly, how long should I wait until commencing painting on my primed surface? Some sources saw two weeks is sufficient drying time, other sources say it should cure for six months. Thanks again for your time.

​Thank you Brian. You confirmed my suspicions. Previous to this project my experience with grounds has been almost exclusively with traditional chalk gesso - thus my interest to experiment. But (unfortunately) when I began this project last year, I did not know about this MITRA forum. I found a recipe for dilution of lead white primer from a painter on wetcanvas.com. Lesson learned.

​Re; The Manganese blue. It must have run out as they now sell "Manganese Blue Extra" (basically a hue colour) instead.

​can tubed egg tempera (tempera grassa) mixed with cremnitz white be used on fine acrylic primed linen? 

Old Holland has a brochure with minimal information on this varnish.  I purchased it a month ago.  The gloss is very bad.  I was just grateful that it didn't lift paint.  One would think that their matte product was chemically compatable but the company won't commit themselves.  I will have to test.  I might also test wax directly over the varnish to see if the gloss is toned down.

​Thank you Brian!

​I also want to add that my first few layers of paint without medium or a couch are very sunken in because I paint very thin and mainly use synthetic oxides. Which is why I find the need to add a couch as I get further along because most times, the whole painting is dull.

​Hello George,

I use absolutely zero solvent in my process. Typically when the paint lifting happens its when I'm in the process of removing any excess oil. I can't stress enough how little medium I use. Sometimes I use a makeup sponge and no matter how gentle I am, it'll lift paint off in some areas. I started to worry that perhaps there was vitamin E in the sponge so I just bought new ones that have no additives. The other day I used a squirrel hair to apply it as thin as possible and it happened again. Mind you, this is only on one figure of a 3 figure composition. Everything else in the painting has been fine throughout the process. This seems to be a common occurance in a few of my paintings. There is always one spot that just doesn't accept the 1st or 2nd color layer. And to answer your 3rd question. It appears that the paint only lifts off down to the underpainting. The underpainting always seems stable. But I wanna add that this issue has happened on top of all different underpaintings. Some done with mars black/lead white, mars brown/lead white, raw umber/lead white staight out of the tube. No medium, no solvent. 

​Oh and to answer your other question. I'd say that the main thing that has changed in my process is that when I was younger I was much more liberal with my use of medium. I'd use medium from the very beginning to the end. Dipping in medium and into paint carelessly. Now I barely use it. In fact, I only really need medium to bring back the surface so I can match my values as I try and finish my work. That and to make my later layers a little fatter. Also, when I "seal" my drawing, its less about sealing it as it is just to tone my substrate so I'm not starting on a white surface. Could it be that gel mediums arent quite mixing with the paint when I apply a couch and therefore kind of getting sealed wet, between a dry layer and a wet layer?

​Thank you for the quick response. This particular painting is on golden acrylic ground. The underpainting was done with raw umber and lead white. the first color layer was then done with no medium and a limited pallete of mainly mars colors. This was initially for a show in June but because of Covid-19 it was pushed to December so I took a hiatus on the painting. So that color layer had quite a few months to dry. I then applied a couch of oleogel from Rublev and applied a second layer, this time with a more open pallete of opaques and transparents. After about 8 days I repeated this process and while applying another couch the paint began wiping off, only in very specific spots. Particularly in the lightest areas where the most lead white is. (The underpainting is done similar to that of Rembrandt). When I noticed it delaminatiing I abandoned that sitting and waited another week and a half. But alas, last night it happened again in the upper area of the form. This time I just scrubbed that whole layer off and repainted it. This also happened on another painting except in the black glazed areas. However that painting was done with a mars black/lead white grissaile and on gray acrylic ground and later layered with a leaded glass medium that does contain solvent. I'm completely baffled.

John.

​I had this problem when using a well known alkyd medium. Well I didn't use a couch, but the the second layer would partially dissolve the first.  The more medium I used, the worse it got.  I deduced the effect was caused by the alkyd medium quick dry setting up, but not being truely dry the next day.  The solvents already within the gell medium then acted on the first layer when painting the second.  Your cause however may not be the same,

Marc.

Thank you for your replies,

I wasn’t aware of the Golden high Load line, they may be an excellent answer to my need.

Does it mean that it is possible to use them straight as a gesso-like ground? — or a primer like a sizing medium?

Thank you for clarifying the dilution factor, the 1:10 acrylic medium to water is a very good tip indeed.

Cyril

​Thanks Brian. Good to know on both fronts. I did get into trouble following a suggestion in the same book to use an egg white/ oil formula as a varnish some time ago and that was not a hoppy experience. Hence my eagerness to check out this application, suggested by my current painting teacher, before trying it. It's always good to know the experience/qualifications of a person recommending formulas of this kind, like Louis V, no matter how well intentioned they may be. I prefer a firm evidence base myself to supposition so really appreciate your frankness. 

​Thanks Brian. It's a recipe recommeneded by painting teacher but originally from the painter and author Louis Velasquez, who has written extensively about Calcite Sun Oil which he believes the Old Masters used, in one form or another, as a medium. This oiling out formula we're discussing has no calcite however and consists of 3 parts sun thickened oil to 2 parts glair. 

I would personally be using it only on board as an initial surface lubricant. I had hoped it wouldn't be very different to having a tempera grassa painting underneath an oil painting but I supppose, from what yiou say, it's a risky experiment. 

​No, but the colour of the shellac is apparenty due to the type of wood the insects have been living on. So I'm supposing (perhaps falsely) there's some kind of distilled resin component within the shellac.

​I know little about shellac, but it's possible that the different tree resins making part of it could age to darker shades over the decades.  A mere twenty years or so however should still be somewhat within craft permanence. It occurrs to me that the shellac has caused some of the colours to be saturated from a previous opaque but underbound state. This would incline them towards transparency, revealing the colour of the wood underneath. On top of this, the colours probably weren't of professional artists quality, possibly even house paints.  I've seen dramatic colour changes of these within ten years. Not only may they have faded, but they may not even be the same colours anymore. I personally doubt the original colours can be recovered without repainting. If you could take it back to the original artist/artists they would probably be interested (with a fee) in restoring the pole to their original intention, but not necessarily to a perfect replication of it first appearance.  You could be shocked by their choices, but at least it would be still a wholly authentic work. Either this, or live with time's changes.

Marc Kingsland

​Thanks Brian

​Thanks for the reply. 

I did some reading today on the differences between the various types, but it was a bit much for me since my last chemistry course was in the '70s. I just now found this PDF from https://www.kremer-pigmente.com/en/solvents-chemicals-und-additives/solvents/2221/terpineol

Their offering is Alpha-Terpineol (62.3%). I suppose we can safely assume that they are offering the type that works the best when used with artist's oil paints. This text from the PDF is encouraging:

 "Another advantage is that oil paint applied with this material dries completely mat."

https://www.kremer-pigmente.com/media/pdf/70150e.pdf

I am very anxious to try some. Unfortunately, Kremer does not appear to offer Terpineol on their US website.

http://shop.kremerpigments.com/en

​Thank you.


​Thanks Sarah Sands for the additional information. 

It appears that there are several different types of Terpineol. What variety is the one you have on hand? 

Alpha, Beta, Gamma and more:  https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/#query=Terpineol

​Thank you!

​I can see other areas where the tan coloured canvas is appearing through the paint. I can't see any white priming.. would it be raw canvas, or maybe a clear oil primer/ground?

Richard 

​From the second picture I can more clearly see what I now interpret to be a light weight canvas which would of had a very open mesh like nature and then had a white primer applied/pushed into it to fill the weave gaps.  The weave still standing proud and somewhat visible after the priming.  You can see the brown and green paint just skipping across the weave tops in thinly painted spots.

​Thank you both!

I didn't get a photo of the whole painting. But this one shows a larger area. I couldn't see the paint failure and cracking in the lighter blue-green areas or some of the darkers. The paint layers in parts were quite thick too, although the painting seemed very matte (even the impasto areas).

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AmUNfHwBmxxGZasuDnNjIc7On5q3zKE5/view?usp=sharing

​If that's actually the ground layer exposed and not some pale slick synthetic flat weave canvas.  Then I don't think a brittle underlayer has telegraphed through to the painting layer because this seems free of cracks.  

Back in the mid century, I'd reason most (though not all) white oil paint contained some degree of zinc oxide, including the Flake whites.  In as much as one can tell from one photo.  I think this failure is due to a brittle zinc oxide containing paint layer, subject to environmental extremes (as you say to periods of heat. (There doesn't appear to be the patterns of pressure cracking))  on a surface that provided poor adhesive qualities.  If there was a better ground, I'M GUESSING there would still be cracks, but less delamination.  

With a lot of guesstimation,  Marc.

​I stumbled on this page when looking for Terpineol sources: http://cameo.mfa.org/wiki/Terpineol

Quotes from the link:

Description

A transparent, viscous solvent with an odor of lilac. Terpineol is an unsaturated cyclic terpenoid found in many essential oils and turpentine. It is made synthetically for use in perfumes, soaps, and paints. In paints, terpineol acts as a diluent but also a thickener and it prevents the brushmarks from leveling. Terpineol dries to a matte surface.

Synonyms and Related Terms

terpene alcohol; turpentine alcohol; terpilenol; Nopol [Glidden]; p-Menth-1-en-8-ol; 4-trimethyl-3-cyclohexene-1-methanol

I think you're right, the problem is the solvent. I am doing tests with "shelsol t" but the paint turns very liquid. I have tried thickening with bentonite and it does not work. I will try tixogel in the following tests.  Many thanks!​

​Reply from Winsor & Newton:  "We can confirm that zinc oxide is present in our acrylic gesso at less than 0.1%."  

When asked if it was a mild natural contamination or added for some desired effect.

"Any zinc oxide present in the gesso at very low levels is completely bound up in the acrylic media so would not be present in the oil phase to form metal soaps."

Well if it is deliberately added; I don't feel that I can press them further for proprietary information.

Marc.

​Reply from Liquitex informs that there's no zinc oxide in any of their acrylic gessos.

Nothing from Winsor & Newton as yet.  I may have muddied the waters slightly by stating the reason why.  As most of their white oil paints have zinc oxide, a response could risk admitting the future fragility of those paint films.

Marc.

​What does this mean? What happens at 50 F and 68 F?

​It appears that you can purchase smaller bottles of Terpineol on ebay and amazon. 30ml for $10 was one example I found. Kremer lists it in their catalog thusly: "Terpineol, slowly evaporating solvent for oil paint mediums." I couldn't find any reference to it on their website other than the catalog listing.

​Thank you for your replies, including the information that at least two acrylic gessos are suitable.  I've also emailed Winsor & Newton and Liquitex, but have yet to receive a response. 

Marc.

​Hi Matt, where can one find casein scenic paint? Like the Rosco scenic paint?  

I contacted Shinhan and they do actually offer a "poster color medium" which is gum arabic mixed with other things, they did not tell me what is in it.  Unfortunately they don't sell it currently, but it might be back in stock eventually.  Only 40ml.  

As for Nicker poster colors, Nicker offers 130ml (down from 140ml) from a shop called Sekaido in Toyko.  

Unfortunately they do not ship overseas, however proxy shipping through other companies is available, though pricey unfortunately.  

Some sort of modern tempera would be interesting to try, I remember there being a russian(?) brand...but I've forgotten the name.  

The wall and wax mediums from Kremer pigments sound pretty cool..I may have to give them a go too.  


Thanks again Koo. From experience I can attest to most of these points, haha! Cheers. : )​

Thanks for the response Brian, this is highly informative.

Yes, I was thinking mostly the "professional poster" colors from Japan, like this Nicker brand and Shinhan used for their animation purposes. 

I've tried the Shinhan and it does seem pretty gouachey, I've compared it to Flashe, which is a polyvinyl.  

Shinhan does offer a medium, but I'm not sure if it is just gum-arabic, im assuming it is.  

An opacifier...that makes sense, do colored gessos fit into the same category in this instance then? Calcium carbonate based mostly? 

What im after is essentially a very opaque, very fast drying and very matte paint that I can layer, I wouldn't be using any water.  I don't actually want any colors to blend at all, and if I could get a white over a black without seeing the black, that would be ideal. 

This medium seems to describe what I want: http://www.janmcdonald.com/artrisings/?p=269  

"Kremer’s translucent wax medium either used as a medium or as a binder for dry pigments dries pretty fast like egg tempera.  Strokes dry almost instantly and can’t be effectively blended.  I use short linear overlapping strokes to simulate values or hues (like one would with pastels) and the strokes stay where they are, so in that way it also handles like egg tempera."

Flashe gets close to achieving this, but their colors are not as opaque as the Shinhan poster paint. 

The reasoning behind trying to figure out how the poster colors are made is that they only come in tiny jars of 40ml.....I would be satisfied if they came in larger jars or if there were a medium I could add my own pigment dispersion into I suppose.  

Not sure what im after...I was going to try the Nicker poster color since they have so many colors to work with, maybe there are other "professional" poster colors in Japan....I've only found Shinhan, Nicker, Sakura, Turner.  And from what I've read the Turner and Sakura are not as good quality compared to the other two.  

​Ah, as I was already aware of this trait, I didn't even notice.  I mentally self corrected your mistype when I read it.

Marc.

​I would like some clarification on using PVA as sealer for a drawing on paper followed by oil paint on top of the PVA. The enticement  of mounting a preparatory drawing  on heavy archival paper is the ease of preparation compared to gesso if one wishes to have a very smooth surface and use the detailed drawing. So oil paint will adhere to the PVA? If one puts drops of linseed oil on the dried PVA over the paper and there is no migration of the oil to the backside of the paper, Is that considered safe from oil penetration? Also, wondering if a painting  done with casein paint on heavy archival paper, can  be covered with PVA after the casein has cured? When the casein painting on paper with the PVA size on top is mounted to a rigid substrate, is that a sound practice also? Or, with casein paint and a casein fixative on top of the casein be enough of a sealer for the paper befor applying oil paint?

​Thank you for your replies, they've been very helpful.

Marc.

Thank you Brian and Koo,

This is helpful and clear.

One other odd aspect of these surfaces is that there are areas that appear to be pinholes ​that have emerged after sanding. They were not visible in the upermost gesso layers and I have never encountered the emergence of "hidden pinholes" before. I've noticed the texture of the fabric encourages many pinholes in my first few layers that must be (as you describe) brushed out insistently. Perhaps they were somehow preserved...

I am able to massage hem away with a wet cloth, as you describe. Thanks.

eli

Eli Bornowsky

​Thanks Richard I thought of that idea too. I did get some Gamblin yellow ochre a while back for that very purpose. I guess it can only help, even if not hugely. Meanwhile Inhave been in touch with Gamblin a,so who confirmed their PY3 etching ink it is LFness level 11. Cheers, Jenny

​If you mix a small amount of the Gamlin Etching Ink Yellow Ochre (PY43) you might increase lightfastness (Iron oxides are used with an organic pigment in the paint industries). Of course it will effect the chroma and lightness of the Hansa Yellow Light (PY3). Whether a small amount will help much I don't know, although PY3 is I believe quite a strong tinter so you might be able add more than with a weaker tinting pigment.

Richard Phipps

​Thanks Brian and Mirjam Very helpful. Excellent article explaining lightfastness. Just wondering though, if I glaze a more permanent colour over a less permanent one, does that help to protect the weaker under-colour at all?

I may be grasping at straws here but am trying to find a way to get some use out of my PY3 printing ink. It seems almost impossible to get a truly permanent yellow in etching or relief printing inks...

​Thank you, Mirjam.

​I found this from the Smithsonian, which I thought was interesting: https://www.si.edu/mci/english/learn_more/taking_care/acrylic_paintings.html


​Thanks Brian but I'm a bit confused. Are you saying PY3 is not permanent even in oils? 

​Thank you, Mirjam.

​Thank you, Brian.

​One thing that I've tried that might work is to take a fine black felt tip pen which are designed for finelining/calligraphy work , remove the ink cartidge completely and then pull out the nib (which goes back someway into the pen). Completely wash out the ink from the nib thoroughly and leave to dry.

When dry and clear of any ink, put back in the pen without the ink cartridge and then place the pen in some thinned down oil paint for several seconds. You might not get many strokes out of it before needing to be 'refilled' but it does give you the control of a pen for doing fine lines (and signatures)

I was once told that one problem with health food store flax/linseed oil is that they also often add Vitamin E as an anti-oxidant to keep it from "going off". That "going off" is the oxidation/drying process for oil paintings.

​Thank you.

​Thanks to all for your responses. I like the idea of giving the paint to someone who will use it in a learning situation and will tell them to get some zinc free white for working on future "keepers". 

​I agree, but the whole surface is covered with paint

​Actually just had a thought.. The surface seems very absorbent for Oils and I use an oil rich medium so I can see large oil range around the painted areas. So it seems likely  to me that all the primer has been saturated with the amount of oil absorbed.

Wonder if this oil absorbtion will cause a stronger bond to form in the primer (holding it more together), and also from the primer to the PETG underneath?


Sounds like it's not going to work as I hoped. ​As always, thank you Brian for your expertise! 

​Thank you both. What about if the surface was primed with a couple of layers of gesso? Do you think that would help?

Thanks for this topics. I get some important things from here.

Thanks Brian, you echo my thoughts.
I would love to see some testing, but I doubt that I would see any useful results in my lifetime. ;)

Interestingly, According to Sarah Sands, Mecklenburg still hopes that some proportion of zinc would be beneficial.
Although, I think that was possibly a couple of years ago now.

Ron Francis

Thanks George.
I know there is no data to answer my question, but I was particularly wondering if the effect of different combinations of lead and titanium was linear​ or some other curve.

Ron Francis

​Thanks Brian and Matthew. I'm relieved that the commercial product with sand should work OK and will certainly follow the steps and precautions you recommend. Cheers, Jenny 

Koo, your insights are very helpfull as always.

It seems we had similar practise, although different regarding impasto topic.

I mix marble dust and egg yolk without add of water and then apply them with paint knife. This way I do not need to wait for water to evaporate. Once they are on ground I use bristle brush to make hair imprint on. There is one more thing I do. I used coarse marble dust (150-300 microns) so impasto is pronounced without too much pigment and binder, in quantitative meaning. 

The potential problem is the fact that this ''impasto'' layer contains coarser particles then ground. Hovewer, layer is applyed localy and overpainted. I see no cracks or delamination.

Any thoughts?

Damir P.

​Oh, and thank you for your comments on my work, Joyce.  Much appreciated.  I try to make my temperas as carefully as I can, thanks in part to the help I get on MITRA. 

Hello, Joyce - always a pleasure to hear tales of Wyeth and his methods. I'm curious, do you know how long the painting of Dyad cured before he re-painted on top of it?  

My experience is that after about 2-3 weeks of a tempera painting sitting (no new layers applied), the surface gradually, increasingly resists fresh layers of paint (paint beads up or slips when applied). The longer a painting sits and polymerizes, the more resistant the surface becomes.  I used to think this meant one couldn't build on top of a cured tempera painting - but then Ross Merrill (one time director of conservation at the National Gallery, for those not familiar with the name) told me it was okay to paint upon a cured tempera surface.  I also spoke to Robert Vickrey on this subject.  We were in a show together, Vickrey was quite old at that point and he was taking old, unfinished paintings out of storage to rework them.  I asked if he'd experienced any problems accumulating fresh layers of paint on older work and he emphatically told me, no problems at all.  

Just because it's possible to layer paint atop an older painting doesn't, of course, necessarily mean long term adhesion between the old and new layers.  Yet I often hear from tempera painters who want to rework older pieces - so to address this I advise: 1. Make sure the painting's surface is clean (no dust, grease, etc. that could compromise adhesion); 2. Lightly open up and abrade the surface with a 600 or higher grit sanding sponge, to give fresh paint something to latch onto (this step is critical); 3. If necessary, apply a very thin "nourishing layer" (as the icon painters refer to it), i.e. 1 part egg yolk to 8 parts water or so. The last step is not preferred, since it could lead to excess lipids in the paint layers and subsequent efflorescence – but it does make a polymerized paint surface more receptive to fresh paint.

I'm not a fan of using the whole egg – as you note, Joyce, the white, which is primarily albumen, is brittle and doesn't, as far as I know, contribute positively to the paint film. 

As to how much impasto either pure egg tempera or an egg + oil emulsion is capable of – it's important to note, in our ongoing discussion, that "impasto" is a vague term.  I do think tempera can be applied somewhat thickly – with a consistency of perhaps light cream – and this can appear as "impasto" relative to egg tempera.  I don't think it can come anywhere close to the literal three-dimensional blobs that pure oil and acrylic can achieve. 

Koo

I concur with Brian about not going too impasto.  I've played a bit with how thickly I can apply both egg tempera and tempera grassa, and depending on various factors (water content in paint, pigment, thickness, percentage of yolk:oil in tempera grassa) cracks can develop - sometimes visiible to the naked eye; but I've also looked under a magnifying lens and raking light, and perceived hairline cracks in thickly applied paint.  So initially, as you're developing a feeling for how far you can push it, you may want to use a lens and strong light to check for fine cracks in your impasto paint. 

My understanding is that the main reason thick passage of tempera crack is that water comprises a large volume of wet tempera paint; hence much of a thick blob of tempera paint disappears quickly (via evaporation of water) and, consequently, a thick egg tempera paint film doesn't have time to coalesce into a stable network.  The result is cracking.   Is this about right, Brian?

One way I've been able to apply slightly thicker areas of tempera without getting cracking is to let a small pile of properly tempered paint sit for a bit. I occasionally mist it, but only very lightly - I don’t fully rehydrate it.  Gradually the paint loses its water content and eventually, over the course of a few hours, reaches a consistency that is akin to softened butter (or, for that matter, oil paint).  I can apply this thicker quality tempera paint with some degree of impasto.  Because it's lost water content gradually (over the course of a painting day) it seems to tolerate being somewhat thick and doesn’t crack.  Granted, it is not the 1/4” dab of paint that can be achieved with oils.  Still, it is genuinely thick for egg tempera (perhaps 1/16” or so) and appears very dense and opaque relative to the more characteristically thin layers that surround it.  You may want to play with this idea with tempera grassa as well - though I'd be interested to hear what Brian thinks of this practice, and if there are any potential pitfalls. 

Koo Schadler 

​Thank you for taking the time to post a response. Your comments have been helpful in reinforcing what I already thought about the process. 

Dear all,

I am working in homemade tempera grassa, oil:yolk=1:1 with various water content added.

I would like to start painting with thicker impasto and then move on to thin glazes and scumbles in subsequent layers. I would want brushstrokes to show through to the end.

Are there any suggestions?​

My ground is half-chalk, but I could move over to traditional gesso if needed.

Kind regards,

Damir P.

There are several companies (Sennelier, Daler Rowney, Zecchi) that sell commercially produced paints labeled "egg tempera".  These are not, in fact, pure egg tempera paint (if pure egg tempera paint - just yolk and pigment - were put in a tube, it would quickly putrefy!)  Tubed "egg tempera"  is actually an emulsion of egg protein (albumen) and a drying oil.  Such paints would be more accurately labeled as "egg oil emulsion" or "tempera grassa".  Being water-soluble indicates there is a greater percentage of yolk binder than drying oil in the emulsion. (If there were a greater percentage of oil than yolk, it would be solvent soluble).  There is only one way to have pure egg tempera paint, and that is make it yourself.

Tubed, tempera grassa paint is a perfectly fine medium; however it does not have the same properties as homemade egg tempera.  The oil content makes the paint more painterly and a bit more flexible.  It can be applied more thickly than pure tempera, although not as impasto as oil.  If applied too thickly, it will develop cracks. 

Pure egg tempera reached its peak of renown in the 1400s – a time of more tightly rendered, linear, representational imagery.  So those qualities, to an extent, are not inevitable to egg tempera; they're, in part, the result of the visual preferences of the era in which egg tempera dominated.  It's true that egg tempera has a great capacity for fine, precise linework – but it's also perfectly possible to work in a looser, more painterly style with the medium. I love to see artists work this way as it helps egg tempera to break out if its 15th century shell and expand the medium's range.  

One of the unique characteristics of egg tempera is its capacity for layering; it's possible to accumulate literally scores of distinct layers in a single day (whereas if you applied 100 layers of watercolor or gouache you'd end up with mud, since the underlying layers remain soluble; and if you painted 100 distinct layers of oil it would take you as least as many days).  The only other medium that I can think of that has a similar capacity for layering is acrylic (which, as "plastic" has a different feel from tempera, which feels more "organic", so to speak).  Many, many layers (of local color, glazes, scumbles, whatever) can impart a lot of atmosphere and depth to an image.  So by applying just a few thick layers versus many, many thin ones, you're not taking advantage of a special attribute of the medium - but that's not a disadvantage if you're getting the results you want in just a few layers.

Pure egg tempera has a high PVC – lots of pigment relative to binder. There's so much pigment that pigment particles protrude slightly above the level of the binder, which creates a porous, more open and absorbent surface.  This makes the surface of egg tempera more vulnerable to atmospheric moisture & things landing on and getting embedded into the surface.  Tempera Grassa's surface isn't as vulnerable as pure tempera but a bit more so than oil.  To protect the surface, you can either frame under glass or varnish.  Varnishing is a complicated subject in egg tempera; there are pros and cons, and it takes consideration and experience to do well.  This has been discussed in other threads (search the website for varnishing egg tempera). 

Finally, to clarify – the correct term is egg tempera.  It comes from the idea that pigments are being "tempered" with a binder of egg yolk. Tempura refers to Japanese fried food.  A common mistake but good to clarify. I think that addresses all your questions. 

Koo Schadler

​This was super helpful as always, both the suggestions for matting agents and the explanations behind the scene. I have lots of tests to prepare. Grazie Mille- T

​thank you all for your responses.  I am wanting the lead primer w/o marble dust having it on good authority, I think (Richard Schmid) that using this primer one can wipe wet paint off and go back to the white primer with no staining.  I would like to do some work where I can do that.  I think I will try the lead oil paint and see what happens.

​Dear Brian,

I hope everyone with MITRA are staying healthy. In case you are still moderating during this time, I just wanted to follow up regarding my question. 

I do have cadmium yellow, cadmium red, and cobalt blue in my initial layer, so as per your earlier reply, sanding would not be recommended. However, my layers were fairly thin (application-wise, not with too much medium), so the cross-hatched surface texture of the acrylic dispersion primer is still quite visible to varying degrees. Do you agree that this would provide sufficient mechanical tooth? My extant layers range in fatness from initial lean pigments adulterated 20% with a 50/50 alkyd medium/OMS mixture up to smaller areas with admixtures in the somewhat fatter range (not the fattest), adulterated 20% with 70/30 medium. 

Please advise if there is anything I could or should do to insure the best possible adhesion beyond using a walnut/alkyd oil medium and gently cleaning the canvases with OMS before I resume my work. 

Thanks again!

​PS -- I also have stand oil on hand if adding a bit to the final layer along with the walnut oil/alkyd medium would be helpful. 

​Thanks, Brian -- that's good news. And I've learned a new vocabulary word today! Thank you for your very interesting information!

​Thank you Brian. I don't use lead white, but I'll have to check my studio notes as to whether there is any cadmium yellow or red in the extant layers. In that event, would there be another way to insure best adhesion? I'd prefer not to sand if I don't have to for several reasons.  

Much appreciation for your advice.

​Thanks Brian, I ordered a trial set which arrived today after I posted this thread. To my surprise when using the pigment markers or the blending marker it doesn't seem to cause any effects on the acrylic gesso.

So it looks like you were right! That makes things a lot easier for me then :)

​Apologies, please disregard the above incomplete post. I had a strange computer glitch and have posted my question in its entirety separately, Thank you!

​George, I am wondering if you have a substitute for dammar varnish in Betaudier's emulsion recipe.  

I tried replacing the dammar varnish/turps with Alkyd and the emulsion separates quite quickly and for some reason it dries quite slowly.   I doubled the Alkyd proportions and that worked better, but the emulsion still breaks down within a day.  

I am using the following 

1 part Methyl Cellulose

1 part Oils

1 part Dammar/turps (looking for a substitute for this)

1 part water

Thanks

Here is a follow up almost 4 years later on the this process.

 

Every encaustic of mine with the removable Golden Polymer Varnish on them that I have been able to examine closely within the last few months is still holding up very well. No complaints or concerns with the finish have come back from any of the buyers of sold paintings.  Cleaning dust and environmental deposits from the paintings with a soft rag or a rag saturated with distilled water has worked well with no visible changes to the varnish. No indications of delamination, dulling or clouding of the varnish were visible. The normal matte or satin paraffin "bloom" that an unsealed encaustic almost always produces was not evident under the varnish on any piece. They all looked as good as they did they day they were finished.  The additional hardness the varnish brings to the equation has definitely helped reduce the amount of dents, dings and fine scratches that inevitably happen with encaustic works.

 

I recently did a major scratch repair that had penetrated all the way into the Baltic Birch plywood panel support.  It was created a few months before my November 2016 post here in the forum. The varnish was removed from the damaged area plus a 6 inch additional buffer zone in all directions around the scratch. This was necessary because of the need to use a torch to fuse the newly added wax from the repair. The varnish has to be gone in all areas that are going to be heated.  I used an ammoniated glass cleaner per the instructions from Golden  to remove it, then cleaned the surface with distilled water and allowed it to air dry for a few hours. The varnish came off easily after letting it soak for a few minutes with glass cleaner. The bare wax surface looked like a recently buffed encaustic painting. There were no bloom or varied sheen spots evident. It was easy to tell when all the varnish had been removed. That would likely not have been the case with a satin varnish that more closely matched the sheen of the bare wax.

 

I then proceeded to do the repair with encaustic colors an electric heat gun and propane torch. A rolled up rope made from a damp cotton cloth, laying along the junction of the varnished and unvarnished areas prevents accidentally cooking the old remaining varnish when fusing the wax layers. If the varnish is heated too much you will end up with a mixture of scorched varnish and wax, which needs to be avoided. With the repair completed, the surface cooled and buffed,  I applied a new coat of varnish that was diluted to the recommended 4:1 ratio which has not given me any problems with beading up on the wax. The areas where I overlapped the old varnish about an inch with the new were visible when first applied, but when dry I could not see the junction line.  Once fully dry the repaired area blended in perfectly. I was a bit nervous about the repair on this 4 foot tall rather costly piece but it ended up being trouble free with outstanding results. I may check back in another 4 years with an update on the condition of any paintings I am still able to examine.  

​I see, thank you very much all of you

​Thanks Marc, here is the article I have read in case it proves useful:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3781714/

​Non expert answer: The zinc might work as a blocker but might have too much of an effect on the tonal range of the picture. Possibly having a very slight lightening result to the picture's appearance.

Micronized zinc oxide would probably be greater, in it's effects than the standard zinc oxide pigment.  As I understand it, the metal ions are both causing the hardening of the oil film and the embrittlement, and indeed are part of the same effect.  I reason that micronized zinc would be worse (or at least faster in it's effects) because the (reactive) surface area of this zinc oxide is greater relative to it's mass.

Marc.

​Not an expert, but I suspect it could have an effect similar to iron gall ink. Over the period of many lifetimes the iron oxide could leach out in a pale amber stain from within the inked paperlines and possibly also make the paper more brittle through oxidative action.  I believe it takes a century or two to become noticeable. (again not an expert) I wouldn't reason your work is anything like, headed for immediate destruction but might need more care of handling than it otherwise would do in the 23rd century.

​Thanks for the replies.  Everything remaining equal, what could I use to replace dammar varnish ?  I have read other posts regarding making tempera grassa using an alkyd.  


The technique calls for the emulsion layers to be painted under the oil glazes.  I have done this before and the emulsion is wonderful to paint on in oils.   I would certainly be interested in using the emulsion as a base for oils, but as George mentioned, I am wary of using Dammar varnish.


My concerns have always been with adding small amounts of emulsion to oil paint or having any emulsion paint worked over the oil layers, which I believe is part of Betaudier's process.  It seems those concerns are valid.

Hello All,

In my experience, isolators with quickly evaporating solvents work best (shellac, B72) because slow drying isolators have time to sink into the porous, absorbent surface of egg tempera; however a fast drying isolator does not have any brush-ability, so they're hard to apply consistently over a large surface (the largest size panel I've successfully applied a coating of shellac to was perhaps 14 x 24, and it was tricky to do well). There's also the challenge of these isolators being dissolved by later conservation efforts, but if you are careful about labeling your paintings, as Brian suggests, you've mitigated this issue. 

Slower drying isolators can be brushed out smooth; however they're more apt to sink into the paint layers (depending on how developed the egg tempera is) and thus be very slow drying; and their solvents have a tendency (in my experience) to draw out lipids that eventually create the efflorescent haze George mentions.  I've tried Gamvar to isolate tempera - it sunk in and was very slow to dry, for me; and eventually I got some haze (as I have with most non-polar solvent based isolators).

I'm not a solvent expert, so I need Brian and George's help here.  Paraloid B72 is also soluble in Shellsol A, which makes it brushable – but I'm pretty sure Shellsol A is a non-polar solvent, so it's doesn't solve the problem – yes?

There are also substances that can be added to shellac to improve its brush ability.  See attached documents, from www.shellac.net: Shellac Addtitives 1.pngShellac Addtitives 2.png I've never tried them, don't know what they are (polar, non-polar).  I also appreciate the issues conservators point out about shellac (although, personally, I use and like a platina, de-waxed shellac for isolating).

One final thought: Max, you say your process begins with an "Egg tempera underpainting… this layer is extremely matte, due to the fact that I thin the ET with a lot of water." Tempera is a naturally more matte medium, but if you are properly tempering (correct ratio of egg yolk to pigment), regardless of the water content (which evaporates out), I don't think a thinned paint should result in a surface that's more matte than usual. What do you think, Brian and George?  I just don't want Max to be under tempering his initial layer. 

Koo Schadler

​Mr. Hintz,

Thank you so much for your reply. After learning about MSA and others like it, I am afraid I will have to find a different route all together. I live in Florida and work in my garage; perhaps this is why I have had such difficulty using MSA? 

So very grateful for your time and expertise.

Kindly,

Kim


​Mr. Baade,

Oh, I see. Thank you very much for your time, and I welcome a response from Golden. Thank you very much.

Kim

​Mr. Hintz,

Thank you for replying to my query. 

I was hoping to find a drawing process that would eliminate the need for glass; I read and see other artists doing this with modern art products such as MSA. But not being able to touch a thermoplastic coating without risking a fingerprint seem counterproductive. 

I am afraid that my questions might appear ridiculous; but here it goes:

Golden recommends quite a heavy layer of their product(4 coats) to achieve decent uv protection.  If a light coat of nitocellulose lacquer were spayed on top(for aesthetic reasons and to guard against finger prints) and it started to check years later, wouldn't the check marks indicate the depth of the lacquer? Wouldn't that indicate to a conservationist how much to sand off? And since lacquers re-wet themselves and can be forever topcoated, couldn't it just be re-sprayed. I think musical instruments are sanded down and re-coated this way(they seem to prefer the glossy sheen), thought I am not too familiar with this subject. I understand that this process of sanding could only be done on a very flat surface; my drawings are very flat and I use no paint.

I guess my thinking is reversing the use of MSA and nitrocellulose lacquer: MSA is designed to be removable and lacquer is intended as a permanent protective coating.  When I contacted Golden, they told me that MSA can be used as a permanent coating. And since lacquer does not have archival qualities, I was thinking it could be used as the non permanent top layer; it seems a very sandable substance.  So my process would be: cradled ampersand boards, various drawing materials, 4 coats MSA, 2 thin coats nitocellulose lacquer.  If the NCL could be sanded off, and this actually works, would my artwork meet the definition of "archival" from a conservationists point of view?

Thank you,

Kim

​Brian, 

There is a second reason why I would like to coat MSA with an alternative coating. When I buff out gloss MSA, the surface is easily smudged. Lacquer does not behave like this. 

In any event, is there an alternative spray coating system that might work for my purposes? I would like a protective coating that I can comfortably consider archival, but can also be buffed out without leaving finger marks in case it is touched.

Are you familiar with a product called "Desert Varnish Spray" made by MOAB? It states that it's also a lcquer-based product used on prints, but I am not sure what type.

Thank you very much,

Kim

​Thank you for your comments. I realize my query is a bit odd. 

I am working on cradled Ampersand pastel boards, using mixed drawing materials, without paint.  I'm using a hard substrate with varnish to eliminate the need for glass, and  use gloss coatings because I don't like the flattening agents in satin and matt finishes. I then rub(or buff) out the gloss physically to eliminate the glossy sheen. I can do this with Golden's varnish itself, but I find that buffed-out lacquer looks nicer as a coating(not so plastic looking).  It's also very convenient because it's very easy to apply thin coats that dry quickly. Frankly, I was expecting the lacquer to entirely lift Golden's Varnish, but then I looked at the solvents in Goldens(acrylic) Varnish: Acetone, propane,n-butane,solvent naphtha...Well, I don't understand the technology.

Thank you for bringing attention to how a nitro lacquer would disolve the under layer. Do you think I could test the surface by sanding the lacquer off? If I sanded the top layers off, and were able to remove Golden's varnish with mineral spirits...would this indicate that I could use the lacquer without damaging the purpose of Golden's Archival varnish layer? 



​Thank you very much Brian for your help, I appreciate it indeed. Would be great to know what Sennelier uses, I checked their docs but didn't find any more detail.

My (quite uneducated) concern with PVA-based fixatives is that PVA is known to release small amounts of acetic acid over time as the polymer degrades, and I wonder it that could be of any risk to the paper itself or to the thin pencil strokes which may contain pigments sensitive to acids, like ultramarine. I know that PVA resins are used in high-grade professional restoration work but no use cases that I found mentioned applying it to paper. Maybe the amount of acetic acid released by PVA over time is negligible and can be safely ignored, or maybe only certain types of PVA resins have this problem — this I don't know.

​Thank you very much for your recommendation Matthew, I'll look into that option! Unfortunately their website seems to list the mysterious "vinylic resin" only, without extra details on what polymer is actually used.

​To clarify a potential ambiguity above, I don't use oil paints. I only use coloured pencils which are either oil-based, or wax-based.

​oh, great! got it. thanks! thanks makes sense.

Hi All, Thanks for your responses. I learned that one of the reasons the marbling might not be adhering to the primed canvas is due to surfactants seeping to the surface. Unfortunaetly, I learned this information too late and had already made giant marbled patterns of acrylic on paper. 

Now I need to know the best method for adhering the paper to primed canvas or wood panel. When I called Golden I was advised to apply soft gel medium to both surfaces, let it dry, and then apply soft gel medium, stick them together, roll out the face with a brayer, turn it over and weight it... not sure for how long to weight it? 24 hours?

then on the surface apply 3 coats of fluid matte medium to prepare the surface for oil painting. BUT when I consulted the University of Delaware conservation pdf's I saw the following:

" Know that acrylic gel mediums can be used to adhere fabric or paper to a rigid support (see “Rigid Supports” document). Avoid using Golden’s Soft Gel as a size/sealant. If acrylic gel is used as both the adhesive and size, it is recommended that an acrylic ground also be used (avoid using a traditional glue ground)."

This seems contradictory, So what's the proper approach? I have fluid matte medium, would that be better? Or should I use GAC? A bookbinding friend suggested I mount with PVA mixed with 1/3 methyl cellulose. I'm a little lost. Are they all the same in terms of outcome? What are the long term pros and cons?

I have three- aluminum stretcher forms with a face of rigid foam panel, with primed canvas stretched over it, that I plan to adhere paper to. I have two wood panels that I plan to stretch unprimed cavnvas over and then adhere paper to. Thoughts? These are 6 x 8ft. large fyi.

Thank you for any information you have. With gratitude,

Angie


​George, Mark, thank for your input.

I thought that adding a small amount of black oil to any pigment would be beneficial, like providing more balanced drying of paint film. I intended to premix a binder from refined linseed oil and black oil e.g. in ratio 90 - 95 % refined linseed oil + 5 - 10 % of black oil. But now I see, that there isn't really any good reason to do it. I might rather try Rublev Japan drier eventually.

​Thank you for your reply.  I suppose what minor concerns I had were whether the factory sizing might be a more reactive element to humidity than the acrylic sizing I wished to use. I hadn't considered the notion that they might block the absorbtion of a user's size. which you have fortunately largely dismissed.

Mark.

Hello Lora and Brian,

A few thoughts and questions to add to the conversation. My understanding is the idea of oil migrating up to the surface of a tempered hardboard panel isn't accurate; the oils within tempered hardboard are drying oils, they cure and can't travel within a panel. The presumed problem with a tempered board is more that the oil content makes the surface slightly less absorbent, and thus the gesso doesn't "sink in" and adhere quite as well as on an untempered material.  Still, it adheres well enough, and there is the benefit of greater strength.  So, an untempered board isn't as strong but allows for maximum mechanical adhesion (in my experience, mechanical adhesion is very helpful to long term durability); however a tempered board is a stronger panel (also very important) but with slightly less optimal adhesion.  Is all that correct, Brian?

I know there are manufacturers who have more experience with ACM (aluminum composite material) panels than I, and hopefully they'll chime in.  For now, here's a bit about my experience.

I did the cross hatch adhesion test (as outlined by Golden on their website) of traditional gesso atop an ACM panel and had a pretty high failure rate (see photo). KS - Cross Hatch Adhesion TG to ACM.jpeg Attaching fabric first to the surface made a big difference. 

Regarding how to attach fabric, BEVA is often mentioned as a good option and conservators tend to favor it. However as a practicing artist, it's a bit complicated. The liquid form is quite toxic, I don't want to work with it.  BEVA film takes care of the toxicity, but my experience is that to create a good bond, the temperature needs to be very carefully calibrated, which is hard to do with an iron; air bubbles or imperfect adhesion can result when the temperature is off.  I had my framer use a heat vacuum press to adhere some sheets, which worked better, but that limits the size and adds costs.  Are PVAs and acrylic gels considered durable (albeit irreversible) alternatives for adhering fabric to aluminum?

I've done maybe half a dozen tempera paintings on ACM at this point, and the results are good but with a few caveats.  First, the drying time of both the gesso (as it's applied) and egg tempera paint is different from on top of wood based supports; in fact, substantially different if the applied layers has lots of water in it (like a thinned glaze or petit lac) - I experienced up to 10 times slower drying times for certain tempera layers atop aluminum. This make sense; the great benefit and drawback of wood based supports is that they act like a sponge.  So if you work with watery paint and/or in a humid climate, expect slower (potentially much slower) drying times (as well as, potentially, more lifting of underlying paint layers as a consequence).

A hairdryer can help speed things along, but be careful – it can also, if used too often (even on moderate heat), warp an ACM panel (I presume because it's affecting the interior plastic core).

Finally, ACM panels can definitely develop a bow in them; I had it occur even in a very small panel just from the number of layers of gesso and paint on the front.  And, although rigid, the panels are thin enough that they flex, especially at large sizes, which would be hard on traditional gesso and egg tempera, particularly as ET ages.  I think bracing for large panels is a good idea, although I'm not sure the best way to do this.  

Kudos to Lora for working on such large scale temperas - most ET painters work relativley small, but you and Botticelli (among others) show us an alternative. 

Koo

​An aging test released on a pdf (was it by Mecklenburg I can't remember) showed that a lead white bound with black oil progressed towards being too hard as the years passed.  However it might seem a reasonable idea to add a little black oil to those pigmented colours with paint films tending to age too soft, such as the earth pigments.  This is under the expectation though, that they aren't going to be mixed on the palette or canvas with other colours that induced hardness themselves.  

In a search for a general painting medium it doesn't seem advisable to use black oil. I hardly ever use it myself.

Mark.

​Hi Brian and others, Thank you for your detailed responses and I apologize for not reviewing the forum and resources first. I did not understand that I could search the content by keyword but now I do and have!

Thank you for confirming that tempered hardboard is not only OK but superior to untempered (standard). I read the Ampersand link and was reminded that before I started my previous 4' x 8' panel I had communicated with them about obtaining one of their panels in that size. It turned out that the price of shipping was prohibitive. I also inquired about buying similar panels but could only purchase them in quantities of 100 which would be impossible to store and require several lifetimes to create paintings at my slow painting pace.

I do carefully cradle my hardboard panels right up to  the edges and champfer the edges prior as Koo recommends. I have been using kiln-dried douglas fir, which although it is technically a soft wood has a very high hardness rating similar to hardwoods. However, based on your resources section I will look for kiln dried oak or maple. I found it curious that in the rigid panel resource section is states that only the bracing on the edges is to be glued. The interior braces should be affixed to the outer bracing using hardware. I assume that is to allow expansion and contraction of the wood, similar to the cradling used on panels constructed from planks of wood (at least the ones on very old paintings.) But perhaps this is unnecessary and I can continue to glue my bracing to the interior of the panel as well as the exterior?

Getting back to type of panel, I looked into 1/8" plywood (as I am currently using 1/8" hardboard due to weight considerations in a 4' x8' panel). It seems it may be difficult to source high grade 1/8" plywood as most of the airplane grade plywood only comes in smaller sizes. Perhaps you have a source you could share? "Baltic Birch" seems recommended but only comes as large as 5'x5' . Plus in your resource section it recommends maple, walnut or mahogony and not birch as birch may cause more checking. Finally, even if I find a source, due to size, panels are usually shipped by freight which is very expensive. But if I do find a superior panel for my purpose I would be willing to pay in the hundreds but maybe not in the thousands for one panel!!

So I may need to stay with what I have recently used which is 1/8" hardboard, made from Douglas Fir (which is abundant in the NorthWest.) It is manufactured in Oregon and distributed by the Stimson Company. If I could find a source for 1/8" high grade hardwood plywood, I would then apply a muslim layer as you suggest. And from what I read it would be lighter than the hardboard which would be a real plus.

I am wondering if aluminum is lighter than hardboard and/or plywood, but at 4'x8' would probably still need bracing, which would add to the weight, and I don't know if hardwood strips would adhere or if metal bracing would be required?

Best of all, your recommendation that I would NOT need to apply  8 coats of gesso to the rear and could just use the semi-gloss alkyd paint, since I do a pretty good job of bracing. That would make the painting a great deal lighter. Thanks for the link to Koo's question- that helped. 

BTW, what do you think of the Joseph Edward Southhall substrate for ET? He (or I believe his wife prepared his panels) stretched a loose weave canvas to a wooden frame and then applied equal coats of gesso on either side. The gesso adhered through the loose weave. It seems precarious to me but his paintings seem to hold up with the test of time.

Thanks so much for this extraordinary forum!!

Lora

​Thanks for the answer. We'll see what to do with this in our class.

As this is a student environment, would you think something like a hairdryer could work? Or do we need lots of precisely controlled heat?

​Thanks for your reply. The problem is wanting the canvas to be super white. You're right, unprimed is easy enough to find, finding really white unprimed at that scale is difficult. I could scour and wash and bleach and soda ash what I have... but if I can find an easier way that is also durable and archival I'd prefer a different route. Do you see any problems with the aluminum sulfate application? will it make the fibers too brittle? Or will it be okay? If the bed linens  are too thin, can I reinforce by stretching over canvas? Or is that still a problem? I've done some tests and the absorbant ground works with marbling some of the darker acrylic pigments. Is is posisble to adhere paper or bed linen's to canvas with matte medium and then paint with oil over that? I think If I can figure out how to apply paper to stretched canvas and I can responsibly paint on that surface that might be the most versatile option. Thanks so much! This forum is incredible and I truly appreciate your expertise:)

​Thank you so much Mathew. This is an excellent resource and answers all my questions about ET storage!

​Yes I am hoping to understand which solvent mixed with paint will be the least shiny. It sounds like terpentine is the answer. I'll stick with gamsol for safely though. Thanks for all the detailed information, Matthew and Brian! Its difficult with a non-science backgound to fully understand, but I'll keep experimenting and keep going back to these threads for reference as I do.

​Hi Brian - Apologies for the delayed reply. Yes exactly, I learned about it from Kremer. They only have a very large container available at this time, so I'm waiting for smaller bottles to come in before trying it out as well. Thanks for looking into this!

Aliza

Thank you, Matthew! 

I am currently experimenting with Windsor & Newton Retouch Varnish as a final varnish. I'm interested in using retouch varnish because I can't wait for months to apply varnish. (Is W&N Retouch Varnish made with Laropal? Throughout my research, I find it difficult to figure out what various varnishes are made of. Is there a chart somewhere?) I've heard that this product can be thinned with OMS and would love some feedback on this. Are there any reasons not to do this? Will doing so create a less shiny varnish? Is it okay to dissolve Cosmoloid wax in the solution (warmed in a sealed glass container of course), in order to make the retouch even more matte?

I read your previous answer to someone's question about applying a final varnish over retouch varnish. Is there a final mat varnish that is appropriate to apply over a coat of pure (not diluted with OMS or supplemented with wax) Windsor & Newton Retouch Varnish that would have a matting effect? If so, what product do you recommend?

Finally, I've read MITRA's Resources pdf on varnishes and took note of the final bullet point: "If your surface is proving to be particularly stubborn once your composition has been completed, it is possible to achieve an even level of gloss by applying alternating coatings of HMW resins (Paraloid B72, MSA varnish, etc.) followed by a LMW resin (Regalrez/Gamvar)". Are there further resources that go into detail about this layering approach that would be helpful to a painter?

My goal is to exhibit recently finished paintings with unified matte surfaces and take reasonable archival precautions withough going so crazy it limits me creatively. 

Thank you again!

​I recently learned about a substance called Terpineol, a few drops of which can apparently be added to a medium to make it more matte. Has anyone used this before or have more information about it? 

-Aliza

​Thank you so much, Brian and Matthew!

It sounds like the consensus is that Turpentine is more matte and more toxic, and Gamsol is less matt and less toxic. I might be getting hung up on a technicality, but just to make sure I understand --

The resources pdf notes that "Aromatic hydrocarbons tend to evaporate more slowly and are more toxic than aliphatic hydrocarbons", but Brian mentioned, "It is true that faster evaporating solvents tend to create surfaces that are more matte." If Turpentine is Aromatic (slow drying) and Gamsol is aliphatic (more quickly drying), wouldn't this mean that Gamsol dries more matte?

Thanks again!

​I one had my hands on a DeKooning where he used salid oil as a medium, it was still wet 30 years later.

Hi George.  The raises a question for me: Does traditional gesso have a CPVC percentage?  I am guessing that glue (unlike linseed oil, egg yolk, etc.) is too variable to have a predictable PVC; but what if we presume a 450 bloom strength glue? Would that have a known CPVC for traditional gesso?

This is an inconsistency that's confused me: on the one hand, when making paint, we begin with a ratio of binder to pigment, i.e. its PVC; and, for water-soluble paints, the water isn't relevant to the ratio since it evaporates, as you note.  

On the other hand, when making gesso - essentially a high PVC paint - most (all?) recipes do not begin with a ratio off binder to pigment; instead they start with a ratio of binder (glue) to water (the thing that evaporates out); followed by a ratio of glue water to whiting.  

The water component, which is essential but also variable, seems to obscure the binder to pigment relationship in gesso. Is there a reason gesso recipes don't start, as do other paint systems, with a binder to pigment ratio?  Is it because of the necessity of dissolving glue in water to make it a workable binder? Or due to the variability of glue?  

I have a recipe that works predictably and realize it's not necessary to determine my gesso's CPVC.  Still, I would like to understand better; and to understand why (as discussed in a previous post) gesso's CPVC does vary so much from one recipe to another. As to that last point, I think it's because of the variabilities in glues and types of surface (more or less absorbent) that a painter wants to work on.  However this results in a lot of built-in uncertainty to gesso, which makes it hard for a gesso maker who runs into issues (such as my monk friend) to diagnose the problem.  If there isn't a CPVC that can be determined for gesso, how does he know if his gesso is too thick because his CPVC is wrong, or because his chalk is behaving oddly?

Thanks for any comments.  Koo

 

Thank you for your excellent advice, Math​ew. Now I just need to find the space to store these paintings upright. Flat as in under a bed is easier but dangerous. If they do need to lean on eachother would wrapping them in cloth be preferable to bubble wrap? And then perhaps some bubble wrap over the cloth? I'm afraid they will get scratched or damages with no covering at all and although I love the lattice idea that would take up more space. Someday perhaps I'll have more space. Luckily I'm a very slow painter so only have about 20 paintings. Thanks again. Lora Arbrador

​Thanks for the direction Matthew! 

Best, T

​Thank you Matthew and George. 

I have 2 more related questions connected to this subject.

The Italian and northern renaissance masters had a direct connection to the tempera paintings being made in the studios in which they studied and worked.  I think of Leonardo and his important connection to Verrocchio and Lorenzo di Credi.  

I mention this because egg tempera can have a consistency thats closer to that of water.  Can there be any truth to the idea that some masters had there paint for glazing similar to the consistency of tempera?  If this is true isnt this damaging once one takes into account the CPVC of the colors?


​Matthew,

many thanks for your prompt reply and clarification of the AP seal.

This site is an excellent resource for artists who are trying to work their way through the maze of information, and misinformation, taught in art school, in books and online.

Keep up the great work.

And thank you for your response, my gosh, where are my manners!​

Sorry for lack of clarity. Yes, I was referring to linseed oil by itself, with no pigment or fillers.​

​​Thank you, but I fail to see an answer regarding sides vs back and longevity. One of the comments states a preference for tacks over staples because they are more easily repositionable and there's a suggestion for putting in staples at an angle, but I don't see an answer to my question. 

​Yes, that's right, Brian. Thanks for double-checking!

​Thank you, Matthew. I think I'll look into Schmincke's Medium W, as a place to start, and not over-thin the paint mixture with water. Once again, really appreciate MITRA as a resource. 🍁

​Thank you so much for the clarification, Matthew. I am relieved to hear that WM oils are still a reasonable option for a thin underpainting. While I have you, would you clarify "thin?" I can recognize "thick" but "thin" is a little trickier...or point me somewhere else on this sight that might talk about that? Much appreciated!

​Thank you all very much! I am very grateful for each and every answer. I will see what are my options in my circumstances, and will definitely try to make a best decision, based on all sugestions and advices that you gave me! All the best to all of you! 


Marko Karadjinovic

​Actually, i know these articles, but i've pointed out that this is bassicaly impossible to do in these circumstances... So if anyone can please take a look at these products (links i've posted) and advice me what is better suited for taping artwork on paper from the back to a passepartout?  What is better to buy? Or is there an alternative? 


Thank you

​Here is a bit of observation regarding this "bleaching out" after applying Gamvar and even more so after removing it with Gamsol (which is mineral spirits essentially).  I coated the bleached out areas with a somewhat diluted egg emulsion, and the bleaching disappeared.  It is hard to tell what it is.  It could be an optical effect, but it can also be some deposit brought to the surface by mineral spirits.  

More to it, when gamsol made the painted layer to peel off - not everywhere, but where the coat was rather thin.

Another option (the one I prefer) is to isolate the tempera, then apply a wax medium on top.  Wax mediums are not as protective as, for example, Regalrez - but there is (along with the isolator) some protection, and the finish isn't too glossy or plasticky, more soft and organic-looking, akin to the natural finish of egg tempera. 

You're description of the grey-ish whitish substance that you were able to wipe off sounds like FAM (which, by the way, is the treatment for this efflorescence - you simply, gently wipe if off with a soft rag), but I haven't heard of those circumstances (i.e. that a varnish instigated it). Do the conservators have any thoughts on the possibility of the Gamvar soaking in and pushing out excess lipids?  Is it feasible?  If not FAM, any other thoughts on what the efforescence might be?

As for your colors appearing "bleached out" after cleaning off the Gamvar, not sure what explains that. Is it possible that, as the varnish was dissolved by the application of solvent, and then whatever varnish remained in the porous paint layers re-hardened, it "trapped" some of the exiting fats to create essentially a semi-transparent, white scumble around pigments that lightened them?  Speculation, of course....just trying to understand why the colors now appear bleached.

Be cautious of applying too much strong solvent atop egg tempera.  My understanding is that they can swell and thus potentially stress and weaken the paint film, and draw out plasticizing components, which can lead to embrittlement.  

Koo

​Thank you, Koo, Briand, and Scott!
The gamvar was glossy (not satin or matte), so no chance to leaving the matting agent on the surface.  I suspect it has something to do with what Koo mentioned, that Gamvar pushed up something to the surface, some grayish-whitish film which I was able to rub off with a piece of cloth.  Since it was my first experience with Gamvar, I proceeded to apply several coats of it.  After a week and 7 coats, I had to remove it all as it looked ghastly.  It didn't even look like egg tempera but like something plasticky.  

As I removed Gamvar with Gamsol, it also removed some of the paint film; upon drying, mineral spirits in Gamsol "bleached" the painting.  Not sure I can rescue it...

George O'Hanlon sent me two varnishes from his line, Laropal Isolating varnish and Regalrez Finishing Varnish.  I tested them on some spots, they both sink into the paint film, and as long as they render the tempera water-insoluble, I am fine with it.  But they are not super-strong and do not protect the paint film from abrasions. (I used them on water gilded surfaces and they didn't hold well)

What would you think if I did the following:
Isolating coat with Laropal, and then the finishing coat with Lascaux Gloss Acrylic varnish (waterbased)?  (I have seen people using Lascaux Gloss varnish, it does not look glossy at all, more like egg-shell.)  

To Koo's point, I would expect Gamvar to quickly sink into absorbent egg tempera layers. The other varnishes she mentioned have a higher molecular weight compared to Regal Rez 1094 (the resin in Gamvar), and in turn, will likely result in a more concentrated coating on a porous surface.

Also, per Brian's question – Gamvar Satin or Matte (or any varnish containing matting agents) will result in whitish reside due to the solvent/resin components sinking into absorbent paint layers and leaving the larger matting solids on the surface.

Both Regal Rez 1094 and Laropal A-81 can be purchased in dry form through our Conservation Colors site.  

Kind regards,

Scott Gellatly

Gamblin Artist Colors

I'm a tempera painter, not a conservator –I'll be interested to hear what the conservators have to say.  For now, here are a few thoughts based on many years experience varnishing egg temperas.

Because egg tempera is such a high PVC (pigment volume concentrate) paint, its surface is very porous and absorbent.  Same goes for a traditional gesso ground.  So both are like sponges, and anything you apply sinks in (or, as you aptly say, goes through like a sieve).  

To successfully varnish a tempera, you must first isolate the tempera with a thin layer of a fast-drying coating. You want the layer thin because you want to minimize excessive, unnecessary coatings on a painting; you want it fast-drying so it doesn't have the "chance" to sink in.  Conservators generally recommend Paraloid B72 as an isolator.  It's flexible, non-yellowing, and remains removable by its original solvent as it ages (although removing anything form an irregular, porous, high PVC surface is a challenge. You can basically presume an isolator becomes an integral part of a tempera painting - unless you're Andrew Wyeth or the equivalent - as it would take a lot of time for an experienced conservator to remove).  You can buy B72 in pellet form (I got some from Talas) to dissolve yourself (acetone, ethanol, toluene, xylene) and apply with a sponge brush; or there are some commercial products in spray cans made from B72 (including, last time I checked, Lascaux Spray Varnishes and Krylon Crystal Clear Coating).  Both applications have their challenges; a sponge brush can leave ridges as the isolator quickly dries, spray application can create orange peel – so it's critically important to practice on inconsequential works and get good at applying an isolating layer before doing so on important artwork.

 I've tried other isolators on tempera, including: super blonde shellac, water and solvent based PVAs, Golden GAC 500 & Soft Acrylic Medium (as the other poster suggested), Casein Fixative and Laropal A81.  All worked, all have pros and cons, none is necessarily better than B72 (depends on your goals and preferences) - just want to clarify that there are many options. 

Once the tempera is isolated, you can apply pretty much any varnish you want on top.  

As to the question of bloom, there is more than one kind of efflorescence (mold, salts precipitating out of a pigment, fatty acids as discussed below); essentially anything that comes up and "flowers" onto the surface.  People sometimes talk of a moisture-based bloom in tempera, but I don't think this is correct – there's no place for moisture to get "trapped" in a tempera painting because its porous surface allows for moisture to evaporate out.  

In my experience, under tempering (too little egg yolk in the paint), isn't as common as over tempering (too much egg yolk).  There is a correct ratio of yolk to pigment in egg tempera paint, and more yolk is not beneficial.  On the contrary, excessive yolk can lead to Fatty Acid Migration, a type of efflorescence that can occur in tempera (and occasionally oil) paintings.  If the paint film has too much binder in it, extra lipids migrate to the surface and create a whitish fuzz; it can happen within months to many years after the completion of a painting.  I see examples of FAM fairly consistently, often from painters who apply nourishing layers.  If you are tempering well, nourishing layers are not necessary and potentially problematic – I recommend against them.   

In fact, I'm wondering if the bloom you are seeing might be FAM –perhaps, as the Gamvar sinks into the surface it's helping to "push" out excess lipids?  FAM is believed to be exacerbated by high humidity but not suppressed by low humidity.  It is seemingly less common in small panels, more prevalent in large panels (See Dr. Joyce Stoner, Erasing the Boundary between the Artist and the Conservator, AIC Paintings Specialty Group Postprints, 2000).  Although not a well-understood phenomenon of egg tempera, there is some suspicion that isolators and varnishes suppress FAM in tempera – which would argue against your bloom being FAM.  So I don't know what the bloom is.  This is the point at which we need a conservator to chime in.  

 

Koo Schadler

​I think gamvar has gamsol in it which is an odourless mineral spirit. Could you try to paint over the egg tempera with a clear acrylic isolation coat (as Golden advise for acrylic paintings), and then apply a varnish layer?

​Just an update:

Royal Talens have been in touch and want to find out what is happening with this paint. They have said they don't use anti-oxidants or MEKO in their paints, so this shouldn't be the cause of the slow drying. I have given them the batch number so they can check that tube.

I also have bought another tube (with a different batch number) which so far is wet on a palette after 8 days, so seems to be showing the same behaviour.

I'll let you know if I hear anything more.

​Thank you to you both for replying to my question, and I'm reassured by the answers.

Thanks for the responses. I had not heard of starch yellowing due to overcooking. Very interesting!​

Matthew and Brian, your comments are helpful as all MITRA concept is.

Brian,

I'm relatively new to oil painting so your detail about shifted values and perhaps hues attracted my attention.

If I wait six months for oil paint to dry and see no shifts in value and hue, could I assume that they are not going to happen at all?

Let's also say that they happened and I done a local oil out, what about then?

Damir P.

​Ah, thanks Brian for correcting my misunderstanding :)

​Well I assumed the copper component was acting as a drying agent. Isn't Phthalocyanine actually classed as a lake pigment which are normally slow drying? I am aware of PB16 which is the metal-free version, but more of a turquoise colour. I don't know if that dries any slower or not though.

I know Sarah Sands did testing of drying rates for various colours (including Phthalo Green) in a JustPaint article and the drying rates in their testing seemed consistently around 6 days regardless of the light levels:

https://www.justpaint.org/impact-of-light-on-the-drying-of-oil-paints-initial-testing/

I'm wondering whether I should buy another tube and see if this also takes such a long time to dry.

Dear Brian,

Do you have any information on stability of acid sensitive pigments in unvarnished oil painting?

I would use synthetic ultramarine in final glazes so I came to idea that environmental acidic dust and gases could damage it if unvarnished.

 My next question is slightly of topic.

If final varnish layer stops absorbency, how can oil substrate gain oxygen for further drying? 

Damir P.

​Yes it is absolutly safe to use canvas in washing machine. You can also wash throuth hand brush aswel.

Also read Best washing machine to buy.

​Thank you Matthew, that is interesting. I did wonder about dryers and have seen some paints dry much quicker than on other brands. But I haven't seen a pigment dry so fast in every brand except one and that one dries so very slowly.

I also tested their PB15 Phthalo Blue, and that dried in 2 days. So I would have thought they used a similar formula as PG7..?

​Thank you Brian. I didn't know you had a representative from Royal Talens here. :)

​Thanks for the replies.  I much appreciate the offer to do a binder hardness test, George - count me in.  And you're correct about the Gamblin, my mistake, I used the Radiant White with safflower oil and titanium.  As you know titanium white is very hard, another excellent pigment for a metalpoint ground.  I'm primarily curious about the black marks generated by my improvised oil ground and need to do more experiments.   

​​Thank you, Brian. Since I have 13 panels, I might try doing half with an underpainting using light washes of acrylic and the other half with dispemper as you suggest. But then again, since I personally dislike acrylics, I might just use the distemper. For the distemper, I am thinking that I would mix in pigments to a warmed standard glue size of 1 liter water to 42 gr. hide glue/RSG? 

Thanks again for your information.

Yours, Ellen

​​Thank you, Matthew, for your informative response. Makes sense that, due to the heat, egg tempera could be problematic. As for india ink, I had been thinking of washes but now (given your input) I might do line work or something even lighter done in charcoal/alcohol as india ink does possess a shellac component which could possibly deter adhesion.

Yours,

Ellen

​Well, in answer to my own question, in the excellent book, "Art in the Making, Underdrawings in Renaissance Paintings", I found the following,

...[various metalpoints] also react with the atmosphere to produce darker lines over time, and this phenomenon even appears to take place in silver and tin metal-point underdrawings in paintings, in spite of their protection beneath layers of paint." So, as you say, George (no suprise that you are correct) there is seemingly no protection of the silver from oxidation.  

Koo

​Very interesting - thanks, George. 

​Thanks Brian & Mathew for good advice as usual.

​Mathew,

many thanks for your sound and thorough advice again. I do a lot of quick studies (most are discarded) and use cheap panels/stretched canvases for these. I am now applying inexpensive gesso to them to fill in the weave. Technically unsound but saves a lot of bucks and fit for the purpose. Will get some denatured alcohol, as you advise, for studies I will keep for a while.

For any serious work I use only professional quality materials.

​Got it. Thanks, Brian.  

​Hi Brian,

I understand that B-72 is soluble in a variety of solvents, but are you saying that mineral spirits (in the wax medium) might affect B-72 as well?  

As you know, I've isolated with shellac for many years, followed by a mineral spirit soluble, wax medium on top, without the wax medium layer affecting the underlying shellac.  I thought the same would be for B-72, given that it is not mineral spirit soluble, but you're saying that it might not be?  If so, are there any substances that can be applied over B-72 without softening it?

Thanks for your quick response.

Koo

​From the last photo the surface looks quite glossy.  A small amount of stand oil is sometimes added to oil primer to aid in leveling out.  In this instance I wonder if too much was added.  Thus reducing not only tooth, but also with the very thorough aging of the paint surface, one imagines it sealing the surface from any interlinking of the newly applied paint.

Mark.

​Thanks, Brian.  

​Matthew, it is oil. Most likely Lead White. It was done about 20 years ago. The person that built the support has never seen anything like it and we (3 of us) could not figure out anything that was logical. The RSG had been put on the back side so nothing penetrated from the back. It is now having new linen by Claessens put on. 

​Brian, Is there any information that I could provide you with that might help?

​Thanks, Brian - helpful info, as always.  Koo

​​Thank you for those additional options, Mirjam...food for thought! 😊

​Have you considered Golden's OPEN acrylic titanium white? It should stay open for an hour or two (more if painted thickly)

I realize that this wasn't put into the form of a question yet. I'm searching for anyone who has thinned oil paint to the maximum with any mixture of painting medium, and then added pumice powder or maybe marble powder to cut down the gloss. The question is how much does the powder alter the hue.

​Thanks for clarifying, Matthew. 😊

​Matthew, am I understanding you to say that a thicker gesso layer as a ground could also be scribed into? I always thought that coats of gesso should be kept thin-ish, as in the case of works on canvas, where the recommendation is that "the weave of the canvas should still show." (But my inquiry here is for scribed-textured oil painting *on panel.*) Thanks so much for your thoughts!

​​Yes, the Zinc blend I was scribing into was, unfortunately, oil paint. Thank you for clarifying, Brian.

> ​This is not an answer but a question: What is Genuine Ivory Black?

Kremer pigmente offers it in Europe: https://www.kremer-pigmente.com/en/pigments/kremer-made-and-historic-pigments/198/ivory-black-genuine 

But there is a note, that it is CITES-product and can be sold only in EU.

​Brian,

thanks your response and taking the trouble to provide the relevant links. I read all of those and got a lot of additional information which has cleared up a number of issues. 

​Brian,

thanks again for your advice.

​Hugh, my appologies (and to Brian) I meant to address the question about plexi in contact with the artwork to you. 

​I forgot to add that the acid free tape I would use is this one by Gudy which says it is removal with glass cleaner or ethanol:  https://www.talasonline.com/Gudy-Dot-Self-Adhesive-Mounting-Tape

I think I need to use some sort of double stick tape to be sure the drawing remains taut. I only need to apply the tape to the corners and maybe one or two positions along the edge.

excerpts from the technical manual for the tape

Gudy dot is in an easy to use double sided tape in a convenient ergonomic dispenser roll. The "dot-shaped" adhesive coating makes the material easier to handle and allows bubble free positioning. The tape is a waterbased adhesive and environmentally friendly. 

Processing & Handling - to avoid problems in processing/lamination ensure adequate drying before lamination- drying time of min. 24 hours is recommended. - for self-adhesive finishing of photos, inkjet- or digital prints in a lamination machine, we recommend to use a smaller width of the mounting film gudy dot than the laminated material - surfaces must be properly prepared and free of contamination - the removability depends on the media-combination and the surface and cannot be guaranteed. We recommend customers conduct their own tests to see if the material is qualified for the actual end-use.

- possibly arising adhesive residues can be removed from smooth, non absorbant substrates with a cloth soaked in glass-cleaner or ethanol - gudy dot is not recommended for mounting on or behind acrylic glass. For these of applications we recommend “gudy window”. You can find all available product information on our homepage: www.neschen.de storage is best to be done in upright position in the original case  

Thanks very much Hugh and Gillian for reviewing and answering my questions.  I have a couple of follow up questions after giving your suggestions much thought over the weekend.

First question:

Brian, are you are suggesting that the drawing be placed in direct contact with the Plexi? I thought it was never advisable for art to be in direct contact with the glazing material?

I am working with Caran D' Ache Neocolor I (wax, not water soluble) drawn over Golden acrylic glazes built up in several layers (paint 50/50 with Fluid Matte Medium) which were applied by rubbing onto archival Tyvek (10G).  They will be finished with a Lascaux Protective UV Finish.

I did a test a few months ago with a small sample that I laid flat and placed directly on top of the art with a 2 pound weight on top for a week. Nothing adhered to the plexi, but I was still leery of placing the art directly into contact with the drawing.

Second question - need clarification before ordering the  Coroplast today  (I am running out of time to mount the drawings for an exhibition.):

 Is it worth the extra cost and difficulty of obtaining  the Archival Coroplast?  Or, is the regular Coroplast ok, since its also acid free – do the other additives pose much of a danger to the Tyvek?  I also would prefer to have a white sheet, available in the regular coroplast, rather than the translucent color of the archival if it is not too risky.

Thanks again for your expertise!

Could you now suggest a suitable proprierty Acrylic Resin Dispersion​ medium. I am located in NZ.

​Thank you for prompt comments which are appreciated. I will now test the proposition.  

​​Thanks so much, Brian and Gillian...much appreciated!

​Hi Brian,

many thanks for your response. I think the issue with using this spike oil, as I proposed, is going to be fraught with complications so I think I will look for an alternative.

Thanks again

​Not a clue. Hopefully not from Ivory. Next time I speak with him which should be in the next few weeks I’ll ask. 

​Brian, again, thanks!

​Brian, thank you for the response.

I just spoke with Robert and he told me he uses Cobalt. Hasn't made it that way for years I just happen to have a very old tube. He didn't feel that it would be a problem. 

Any thoughts on using Linseed oil if I need the paint a bit looser?

​Hi Kristin,

appreciate if you could clarify what you mean by ".........large amounts of essential oil." Is using Lavender spike oil: tube oil paint in 1:1 or even up to 2:1 (max.) OK?

I.E. what is the dilution limit you can use in an underpainting and still achieve adequate adhesion?

Recently reading an article from Jerry's artarama re this oil indicates that the vapours are non-toxic and it  evaporates about the same speed as OMS, can be mixed with mediums, and a safe alternative to OMS. (no special ventilation requirements).The MSDS also gives no concerns unless you swallow it or get it in your eyes. The only drawback seems to be the high price as compared to OMS.

Many thanks in advance

​Mathew,

many thanks your detailed answer. I used to just paint for my own enjoyment, but are now producing portraits for others, so I think I will stick to the generally quoted practice of solvent: tube paint between 1:1 and 2:1 (max.), then I don't have to worry about any other issues possibly arising down the track.

Mathew, never thought about using the weave of the canvas to enhance a landscape painting. Good point. Just visited local state art gallery again and in virtually all of the portraits​ little, or no, canvas weave was visible, reinforcing what you said. Many thanks your input again.

​Brian,

many thanks for your prompt response. Actually, the additional cost of the cradle is probably less than framing the panel (at least in the sizes I use) and, according to Ampersand can be stained. I take your point about care being required when handling these panels and found that a relativley mild knock on the top edge caused a small peice of gesso to flake off. Granted this was only a very small peice but I have been extra careful since.

I am glad to have finally found a quality gessoed panel that suits my painting style, as they have only recently become available in my country. 

​Mathew,

many thanks for your assistance again. I will follow the latter advice.

​Mathew, many thanks your prompt reply. However, I really want to finish this painting for a variety of reasons (not just to be thrifty).

I used to stretch my own canvases and make canvas panels but have completely gone off this work now. I had another good look at the canvas in question and it is in pristine condition (I used to share a mutli-purpose room and my art stuff was all crammed in one small section. Fortunately I now have a much larger dedicated art studio. The relevance of this is that I used to cover my canvases to protect them and so they have not got any dirt or grime on the surface, as I double-checked this today).

Therefore I think I can dispense with the initial OMS cleaning and go straight to a light sanding, clean of any particles; then clean with OMS; then apply a thin, undiluted, layer of titanium white. But, not thick enough to hide the underpainting completely. 

PS: this morning I just found another, much larger, underpainting of my wife that I also started about 10 years ago. I tend to work on at least 2 paintings at the same time due to the slow drying time of tube oil paints. I intend to treat this the same as described above.

Appreciate your comments again,

John




​Thank you, Matthew -- that's what I was thinking. I'll give that a try tonight! All the best.

Dear Brian, 

I finally had a chance to test some paint on the edge of the stretcher bar with turps, and certain pigments came right up on the cotton swap, even though the piece has been dry for a few years! :oO I did attach some photographs of the remaining water stains for your reference -- they look like very small whitish rings. Since my old studio was on the bottom of two floors, there is no way to know what might have been in the initial dripping water. Other drips that landed on a paper work-in-progress seemed water soluble at the time. Since I didn't notice the water stains on this linen canvas when I initially looked for damage, and based on the current appearance of the spots, I imagine that they may have "migrated up" as you suggest. Any thoughts based on looking at the photos?

Based on my swap test, I am hesitant to try turps on the front of the painting, though in my test, the greens similar to those in the affected areas didn't seem as vulnerable as another pigment. (I had painted the edges with black "gesso" prior to starting the painting since I will be using floater frames, so it was difficult to tell if a trace of the greens came up or if it was a bit of this black primer.) Since I'm going to overpaint with a final layer or two, would disrupting the binder make a difference in longevity? Should I consider gently sanding the spots off (with appropriate caution and pigment disposal) instead?

These initial layers were painted in 2013-2015, so I was planning to give the entire canvas a gentle rub with OMS anyway to get rid of any potential dirt or fingerprints, etc, before resuming the painting. (FYI, the affected area is only one (or in a few areas, two) layers on top of an underpainting, and not adulterated more than 20% with an alkyd/oil medium mixed with OMS in varying percentages.) I thought I should gently abrade the entire surface to insure a better tooth to which the subsequent oil paint layers can best adhere, so I welcome your input on the best way to proceed. (Certain "non-waterspotted" areas of the painting are still only the developed underpainting, so they may not require more than a cleaning...?)

Thank you so much as always!

water stain splatter detail on oil painting_1_.jpgwater stain splatter detail on oil painting_2_.jpg

​Sorry I think you answered that question Brian. I have attempted to remove the yellow cast from a digital image, but not sure what other hues are being affected.

​Thank you both! I suspected it was due to the varnish to some extent. Has the varnish not been removed and replaced due to the risk of damage, or because or the feeling that the yellow-brown tint is how they should look? (in the minds of the public and the museums)

​Thank you all so much for the advice!

​Many thanks for both your answers. When doing indirect painting I like the idea of painting in thin layers anyway as it suits my style of painting. Nice to know it's technically sound.

​Many thanks for both your advice. I understand this matter

now. It is a relief to have knowledgeable input.

​ I must have spaced. Of course I cannot use an Acrylic ground over oil. I would like to apply a layer or two of White first. Which would be better?  Cremnitz or Titanium White PW6 (no Zinc). 

​Thank you so much for the advice. What I was thinking was to gently scrape as much paint from the surface of the painting and not damage the ground. I realize I need to remove as much paint as I can to avoid possible future pentimenti. How could I best get into any of the areas that are below the surface? I was thinking of possibly a small still bristol brush with some Gamsol? Or is it best to stay away from solvents? After removing as much paint as possible I would like to put a layer or two of White (any which contain no Zinc) to help with the reduction of the possible pentimenti. Or should Ibrush on some of the Acrylic ground? If that would be helpful which would be the best White to use? I would brush it on and there would be little or no strokes visible. I would like to stay away from adding any additional oil to the piece if possible.

​Thank you Brian and Matthew for your thoughtful replies. 

My next step is indeed to do a test to see how the watercolor ground does as an adhesive. I wasn't sure whether sticking ok now would be a good indication of staying properly stuck in the future...? I'll compare it with a test of the acrylic medium I was initially considering. The vehicle listed for the watercolor ground is indeed 100% pure acrylic emulsion, though the proprietary ingredients are not listed.

Thank you for the extra research about the salt. Very informative and thorough! You've given me some great information with which to proceed. I am using three weights of papers -- #300 on the bottom, #140 in the middle, and a thin piece for the top (#93) which would likely be too thin for the salt technique anyway, since it won't take much water to begin with.

Many thanks for what you do!

​Thank you, Brian. I will definitely test an area of paint on the side of the stretcher bar. However, since the affected areas are not the final layer of paint, two questions:

1. If the turps were to "bite in", would that adversely affect the final outcome, or would it perhaps increase adhesion for the subsequent layer, since it's been a few years since I worked on the piece?

2. If I can't get the water spots off, would they ever come back to haunt me if I cover them with a subsequent paint layer?

Thanks again so much for your time and expertise!

​Sennelier, "Won't reply after two emails."

2015 safety data sheet for their Zinc-Titanium white has zinc oxide listed as being somewhere from, or between, 25-50%.  Once again this may not be accurate to present production.

Marc.

​Lefranc & Bourgeois Extra Fine Oil 2016 safety data sheets

Zinc oxide percentages only,

Titanium white,  5-10%

Titanium & zinc white,  5-10%

Zinc white,  60-100%

Also a little out of date.  It would be natural to suppose that the Titanium white will be closer to the 5% end of percentages and the Titanium & Zinc white closer to the 10%.  As the W&N range are now made in the Lefranc & Bourgeois Le Mans factory, I can't help but wonder if some of the paints could now be the same with different packaging.

​Winsor & Newton whites 2015 from safety data sheets.

Zinc white percentages only.

Titanium white,   5-10%

Zinc white,  50-75%

Cremnitz white,  0%

Flake white hue,  1-5%

Flake white no1,  10-30%

Underpainting white,  5-10%

Transparent white,   5-10%

This information is probably out of date, but I can't find any newer sheets online.  However perhaps some of these paints will still be in stock in some shops.  At the very least they will still be in many artist's paint boxes. Cremnitz white, Flake white no1 and Transparent white have now been discontinued.

Marc.

Thank you for the answers and clarifications.​

Thank you for the answer. Is there any way that I could test the suitability of this paper without having a lab? Something like leaving a drawing attached to a south-facing window for a couple of months? Any particular characteristics besides the obvious (will paint/drawing materials adhere) that I should pay attention to?​

Another option for people in EU, or who buy via Jackson's in the UK: 

Isabelle Roelofs says the Titanium white in her Isaro paints is "100% titanium".

​Thank you Brian so much. I really don't know if there were that glossy lines... maybe a bit, on some parts..? those deep dark parts of the drawing...  but then, pitt pan puts ink thinly, and i had to do crosshatching several times to get dark part.. and also i did it on rough watercolor paper, which was a bit harder to draw on with pitt pan. I hope it will be ok.

​Hello.

I suppose in regards to the color question, I was wondering how I might insure I got the correct sort of hue for the types of colors available at the time?

What if the plywood panels are charred? Would that make them more durable for outdoor applications?  Could paint be used over that char?- like acrylic or milk paint?

​Yes, certainly the added titanium would make it more opaque, but why would you want that?  One's starting with a white distinct and different than either of the other two (also different from each other), but still popular despite the issue with cracking and delamination, and now, lets make it less different by mixing it with another white that you could do so yourself if you wanted to.  But if you want a white without this premix, well you'll just have to buy someone elses.  

Of course I could always ask Old Holland themselves.  however it's not a white I personally use, so its not killing me to know.  I just wondered if there was a special technical reason beyond affecting the opaqueness and tinting strength.

Thanks for your reply

Marc

​Thank you Brian. Glad to hear that. Cheers, Jenny

​Regarding zinc white content in Old Holland Whites;  The information is available to an inexact degree with their safety data sheets in English. Last updated in 2018.  

Zinc white:  70-90% zinc oxide, 3-5% titanium dioxide.

Titanium white:  50-70% titanium dioxide, 10-20% zinc oxide.

Mixed white:  25-50% zinc oxide, 25-50% titanium oxide.

Cremnitz white:  90% basic lead carbonate. (no declared zinc or titanium oxides, thus one supposes none at all)

Marc

​Much appreciated, Brian.

​Dear MITRA,

Regarding the three-layered watercolor piece I initially described above, I have been having a lot of fun exploring natural pigments for my "earth" theme, including some made from minerals and semi-precious stones.

While I prepare for the final piece, I have two new questions: 

1) I had the idea of using salt in the watercolors to create some fabulous, effortless "dirt" textures; the technique itself also adds to the earth theme. While this is an old watercolorists technique, I am primarily an oil painter, so I wondered if I leave a bit of salt behind on the paper, being hygroscopic, would that be bad for longevity? (Read: I'm having a bit of trouble getting all of the salt off of my studies, haha.)

2) An art supplies store employee recommended a name brand transparent watercolor ground to adhere the three layers of paper together. Unfortunately, the manufacturer never replied to me to confirm whether or not their product would work for this purpose. I welcome your thoughts on this, or should I consider using a different product? I will be distressing the paper at certain strategic places in order to reveal the previous paper layer, so the art supply employee thought that the transparent ground would be a boon.

Many thanks for your time and expertise!

I doublt very much that hair conditioner is a good idea, but I'll leave it for a moderator to omment on that.

Ron Francis​

​I have used hair conditioner for a number of years - no problems and brushes stay in shape

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As I mentioned in my earlier post, Gamblin have changed their formula for Naples Yellow to one which no longer contains zinc-oxide.

In the meantime I contacted Gamblin, and their representative confirmed that they are in the process of reformulating their zinc-oxide containing colors. At this point it’s not clear whether this means a reduction or a complete phasing out of zinc-oxide.

The representative also emphasized that it will take some time to reformulate all their zinc containing colors and that there is no time table at this time.

I’d like to add some info to this thread:

I noticed on the Michael Harding website that the pigment specification for their titanium whites no longer mentions zinc oxide (PW4) although the description does mention a ‘’small addition of zinc white’’.

I contacted MH and the response from Karyn Harding was that they are in the process of reformulating their titanium white because ‘there has been sufficient research done indicating that zinc over a very long period of time may affect the paint’. 

Elsewhere on their website MH still maintain that ‘’It is up to any manufacturer if they elect to phase out Zinc White.  In my humble opinion, being an artist, if you know your materials and you understand Zinc White and that it is used for mixing purposes only it will not damage your painting – again – as long as it is used diluted with other colors!’’

I don’t know if they are backpedaling on the ‘it’s the additives and not the pigment’ argument, but whatever they believe, marketing-wise the writing is on the wall….

I also noticed that Gamblin have completely changed the formula of their Naples yellow which used to contain PW4 but now no longer does. I wonder what this means for their other zinc containing formulas (I might contact them) because in a previous exchange they also claimed that additives where a bigger problem than the pigment.

A couple of months ago I contacted Old Holland (via email and Facebook) but they never replied (I live in the Netherlands so language nor time-zone should be a problem). However, I have reason to believe that their Mixed White contains 10% zinc (based on information that was once on their website but has since then been removed).

​PS - Great article on glue, George - thanks, always more to learn.

​Thanks Brian and George, very helpful.  I see there is more complexity to gesso and will update my recipe accordingly.  Koo

​Hi Brian,

I recommend in my recipe a 100% collagen, 450 bloom strength glue; only now do I realize I was presuming a  specific glue for traditional gesso when in fact, as you note, the strength of glue can vary and one shouldn't presume the glue in a recipe.  For the sake of understanding gesso, if a certain glue strength (such as 450 bloom) is used, is there a ratio at which the glue becomes too strong and can cause cracks?  Or too little and make a crumbly surface?  I've understood 100% collagen, 450 bloom glue to be the best for gesso and have heard that glue quality is important, but perhaps it's not as relevant as I've thought?  Has there been any testing of the parameters of a good gesso surface (i.e. has good working properites and is durable)?  If the ratio is more open than I've previously said, I'd like to amend my recipe.  Thanks, Koo

​Thanks Brian.

I'm finding that gum arabic powders off fairly readily before use. 

Rather than dipping into a solution, I'm applying it with my fingers so that it appears to form a skin on the outside rather than penetrating.

Cheers.

Ron Francis.

Brian, any comment on methyl cellulose?

And Mathew (and Brian), I've found that hairs can be softened by manipulating between my fingers when I've tried gum arabic. That is, it doesn't have to be rinsed out. Would this be the same with methyl cellulose?

Thanks once again Brian.​

My main concern about gum arabic is the possibility it may be reactive in some way. If it is inert, then I can't see how it could pose a problem.
I imagine diluted would be better.

Thanks for the recommendation not to put brushes in my mouth. It would be easy to think the brush would be clean so it wouldn't be a concern.

Ron Francis

Just to be a little clearer, I want to shape them while the brushes are still wet after washing.

Ron Francis.​

What paints did you use? Utrecht, Winton, Windsor-Newton and Daniel Smith

How long is substantial drying? YEARS

How thick is the impasto? Heavy knife work - picture attached

Did you use any intermediate or retouch varnishes or any other layers? ​ No.

NOTE: I'm talking about 40 small works. On 1/3 of these, I tried Gamvar Gloss that beaded and pooled. These came out hyper-glossy.

The rest were pure paint with Senniler gloss varnish only.

First noticed clouding on edges when framing the works.

Varnish lifted and flaked easily with slightest of abrasion, even after several days of drying.

I never experienced this with other varnishes.Oil Painting.JPG

This is a very interesting question and I have not heard of an interaction such as this. As Brian Baade notes, answers to some of his questions would be extremely helpful in getting to the bottom of what may have happened. 

I am reaching out to Sennelier now to see if they have any initial thoughts. If you are able to give me the product number for the varnish you used or upload an image, it might assist me. Sennelier makes a number of products called Gloss Varnish and I want to be sure that we are looking into the correct one. ​

Thank you,

Andrew Cook

Director of Education

Savoir-Faire


Solvent requirement of waxes are tied to their melting point. The melt point of the wax in Gamblin Cold Wax Medium is > 150  ͦ F. From what I can find online, this is similar to Renaissance Wax. So, I think it's splitting hairs regarding applying one of these wax products over the other. Either way, the wax coating should be thoroughly dry before adding another layer. For Gamblin CWM, consider waiting at least 3 – 4 days.

Kind regards,

Scott Gellatly

Gamblin Product Manager

​Cold Wax 

​Thanks..I'll look into it! The resin does mess with the texture....heat will melt the work so that is also an obstacle! 

​Thanks for the replies.  I agree with you, Brian, that I don't generally add anything to gesso; it lasts perfectly well (especially if kept refrigerated overnight) for the 2-3 days it takes to make panels.  However I'm in the midst of teaching a workshop and there are a few iconographers in the class who mentioned they use Chloraseptic in their gesso - I didn't think it sounded like a great idea per se (given the additives) so thought I'd ask.   

Over many years of working in tempera I've encountered mold in only a few pigment pastes; to those I add just a drop or two of clove oil, which has worked well to inhibit mold - but I recognize the antioxidant properties of clove oil, and that phenol spray is likely a better choice.  I'll make the switch (although I do love the smell of clove oil!).  Any toxicity to phenol?

Thanks, Koo

I would like to add a little to this discussion.
Virgill Elliott posted an anectotal e​xperience with clove oil that I will paste here.

"Virgil Elliott I would like to add a firsthand report. For a short time I used a Masterson palette with a cotton makeup application pad, placed in the center, to which four or five drops of clove oil had been applied. Due to illness the Masterson palette stayed unopened, with the clove oil films building up, for about three weeks at one point. After that, I laid in a background with a large proportion of flake white and a little black Roman earth added. The background passages stayed tacky for at least two months. I threw the painting out, not trusting the soundness of the paint film. Bottom line, I have firsthand experience of how exposure to clove oil fumes can backfire, even if no clove oil itself ever touches the paint."

I understand this is only one person's experience, but it seems the eugenol does penetrate rather than forming a barrier.

P.S. The panels are pre-cradled plywood so using the backs is not an option.  Thanks again!

Thank you. That's pretty much the response I expected but thought I should get confirmation. 

​Thanks, guys - very helpful.  Koo

Ths Scott.

Regards
Ron Francis​

​Thanks for the feedback. We routinely give our website audits to make sure our information is clear and consistent. We'll take a close look our varnish pages to improve the consistency of our recommendation on when to varnish with Gamvar. 

Kind regards,

Scott Gellatly 

​Thanks Brian.

Ron Francis.

Hi Scott,

There are a couple of places at the Gamblin site where the phrase "dry to the touch" is used and I believe this is causing confusion, probably because that phrase is so easy to remember and the rest may be forgotten.
Can I recommend that the text be revised? Particularly the second paragraph where there is no caveat saying that the film must be firm all the way through.
Here are the two paragraphs. (Link below).

"Gamvar may be brush applied when the painting is dry to the touch and firm in its thickest areas. For some oil paintings, that may be two weeks, for others, 2 months. To check if it’s dry, gently press your nail into the thickest part of your painting."

"Once the additional painting is complete, allow it to dry to the touch before reapplying Gamvar (several days to 2 weeks will usually suffice unless the fresh paint is especially thick). Thinly brush Gamvar onto the newly painted areas, then blot the brush on paper towels and use it to “feather” new varnish into existing varnish. Blending from new to old varnish is important to avoid creating a glossy “halo” when varnish layers overlap too thickly."

https://gamblincolors.com/varnishing-help/

Cheers
Ron Francis

​Thanks Brian, your second ​guess was the right one.

I'm not intending to do this, but I see the question every now and then and I would like to have a definitive responce to it.

To be clear, this is what is proposed ...
Linen has an application of 2 coats of GAC (100 or 200).
Oil paint is painted on top of this, but areas of the GAC is left exposed.
Alternatively, the linen is covered with say 3 coats of a clear acrylic ground, and oil paint is added on top, again leaving some acrylic ground exposed.

Are you saying that a coat of Regalrez or MSA could be used on top, which could be removed from the acrylic without adversley affecting it?
My concern is that the acrylic, (both the clear ground and the GAC), will be porous, and varnish will penetrate to some degree.

The same question applies to B-72, as I imagine that it too will eventually need to be removed. That is, can it safely be removed from GAC or a clear acrylic ground?

Ron Francis.

​Thank you Brian, that's a good point. I do mostly use opaque pigments which I suppose might reduce the yellowing effect somewhat?

​Thank you Koo for your run down on polishing cloths. I recently used some white cotton photographer's gloves and really enjoyed "caressing" my painting double handed without any bunched up cloth. 

I still haven't sprung for the Dual Action Orbital Buffer. Some brands have a "slow start" capability that seems like a wise feature but adds to the cost. Will keep MITRA posted. Thanks, Lora

​Got it, George - thanks a million.  Koo

Very helpful, but also complex – some more questions:

1.  So, each paint has a CPVC ratio at which there is enough binder to surround each pigment particle and fill all surrounding voids.  If either (1) more solids are added to a paint's CPVC, or (2) the ratio of binder to solids is altered by drying so that binder is decreased (i.e. the water content inherent to tempera's yolk binder evaporates away), then the paint's inherent CPVC is altered and the paint becomes High PVC.  In other words, a well-made egg tempera paint is initially at CPVC, but upon drying becomes high PVC, both relative to it's own initial CPVC, and to other paint systems such as oil – yes? 

2. This perhaps is obvious, but would you say no paint at CPVC is porous, matte or toothy (characteristics of high PVC paints); but some paint systems obtain those characteristics upon drying because their CPVC is altered by drying?  

3. George, my understanding is egg yolk contains about 48% water and 17% watery ingredients – does that jive with your numbers? If so, are you referring exclusively to this water + watery ingredients content, inherent to egg yolk, when you say water comprises "70% or more of the fluid mixed with the pigment" to make egg tempera? Or are you referring to the water within the yolk plus whatever amount of water an artist adds to his or her egg yolk medium to make it workable? 

4. As the water content in egg tempera evaporates, does the remaining binder settle into and fill voids? In other words, as tempera's CPVC changes to high PVC upon drying, is the resulting porosity greater at the surface, or is the paint film consistently porous throughout? 

5. Have there been studies of the absorption rate of other binders; i.e. CA (Casein Absorption), etc.? Given the limited to non-existent commercial applications, I suspect not – but if so, would those numbers be useful to artists?  Would there be any benefits for a tempera artist to know the YA (yolk absorption) rate of his or her pigments?

6.  Adding more solids to a paint (raising its PVC) "compromises" the paint's CPVC, yes?  I would guess potential consequences include:

a. Weaker adhesion = paint more prone to chip or delaminate.

b.  Less flexibility = paint more vulnerable to cracking.

c.  Greater porosity = water more readily enters in, potentially leading to moisture damage and/or mold; top coatings, such as varnishes, are more difficult to apply and remove.  

d. Solids protrude above paint film, not encased in and protected by binder = more prone to abrasion.

These drawbacks could be mitigated by (a) considering the strength of the binder (the stronger the binder, the more added solids it can take), (b) working on a rigid support, and (c & d) varnishing to protect the surface and isolating before applying top coats.  Any other consequences/mitigations to add?

7.  Can paints (presuming they are at CPVC) be ranked in terms of their strength?  If it's not possible to give a precise order, can each binder (oil, acrylic, animal glue, casein, egg yolk, gum arabic) be at least individually defined as either strong or weak?

I promise there is a purpose behind all this probing.  Thanks for everyone's help.  

Koo

 

Thanks Scott.​

​Yes, any cracking of the varnish layer would happen sooner rather than later - during the expansion and contraction of the paint layer underneath. We have never seen this or heard about this happening with Gamvar. 

I have removed Gamvar off of many paintings, some many years old. Other paintings, I have removed the Gamvar varnish and reapplied it repeatedly. Unless the paint layer was underbound to begin with - and remains "open" - I don't see Gamvar incorporating into the paint layers to the point of being problematic down the road. 

Kind regards, 

Scott Gellatly

Thanks Scott and Brian.

So in summary, the two main concerns are that the varnish will wrinkle or crack as the paint underneath is still expanding and contracting, and the varnish may become incorporated with the paint, making it more difficult to remove​.

I imagine that the cracking/wrinkling would occur relatively quickly after varnishing? Something like within a month? (Unless the paint is very thick). I'm thinking this because the bulk of the volume change in curing paint happens at the beginning of the curing process.

I think the main problem here is that most artists I see misinterpret the instructions to be 'touch dry'.
Scott, would the 'hard dry' test (or is it 'through dry'), defined by the ASTM,, be useful here? If I remember correctly, you press your thumb into the paint and turn it 90 degrees. If there is no mark that can't be buffed out, it is hard dry.

​Thanks for those helpful replies. I knew of that excellent article by Sarah Sands, but the European Coatings writing was new, thanks for that Brian.  I think part of the confusion for me is the term "absorption" - it evokes an image of a pigment particle soaking up binder; as if colors that need more binder are more porous or "sponge like".  But it seems the amount of binder needed to achieve CPVC is to a large extent determined by how much pigment surface area needs to be covered within a given amount of paint - is that correct?  Larger and/or regularly shaped pigment particles generate less surface area overall (within a given amount of paint), and thus need less binder; smaller sized and/or irregularly shaped pigments generate more surface area within an equivalent volume of paint, and thus need more binder to coat their surfaces.  So is it literally about absorption, or more about coating a pigment's surface area?  

And what does "density" of a pigment practically refer to, and how does that density practically relate to CPVC?    

Because I make paint from scratch I want to understand the process more precisely.  As Sarah Sands aptly notes in her article, some of us can't help but "geek out" on these things.

Koo

​I forgot to say, Lora - yes, another one for my list of Egg Tempera Misconceptions.  I've already added it, up to 32.  Thanks!  Koo

​Egg tempera does seem a bit softer; even on a thinnly applied (2 layers), fairly well cured (sevral weeks) ET surface a fine metal nib, too assertively applied, appears more apt to scratch off a fine dusting of ET (versus a glue or casein based one). But a very minimal amount of ground was affected, it wasn't problematic. The metalpoint marks themselves were fine and rich, and an added benefit is the sulphur in egg yolk speeds up tarnishing. So I think ET makes a good metalpoint ground, tho' I need a lot more direct experience to understand the pros and cons for sure - I'll let you know.  Koo

​Hi Lora,

There's a balance in a polishing cloth between smooth and abrasive - you want enough abrasion to buff the surface, but not so much that a painting is scratched or pigment lifted. I've always found a fine weave cheesecloth to work well; however I've seen many newcomers polish either inattentively or over enthusiastically, and consequently mar the surface, so I also recommend well worn cotton or a piece of silk - both are less abrasive materials and thus safe options for beginners.

Your idea of using a microfiber is great; I just tried it and fine cheesecloth, side by side on the same painting, and the microfiber gave excellent results (more shine than the cheesecloth).  I would just say that for any newcomers to polishing (which of course you are not) practice with a less abrasive fabric to start or, if using microfiber, do so with attention and care.

Please let us know about your Orbital buffer experiments.

Koo

​Hello Brian, thank you for your answer. in the case of rolling the painting, would you say a 30 - 35 cm diameter tube would be fine?

​Hello Koo and Brian,

Thank you so much for your responses!

First to Koo, I think we may have stumbled on "Egg Tempera Misconception" #31 in your list? In #28 you mention the "egg shell" shine but in your response to my question you mention that it is possible to achieve a "mirror-like" finish. That would indeed be another misconception as the most common characteristics mentioned about ET (in addition to the "high key") is the "matt finish." So it is exciting to me that I may be able to pull out a lot more shine. I am in the non-varnish camp because I do not want the saturated look of my ET paintings but I would like more gloss.

Brian your caution about power polishers is well-taken and I promise to try out any power tools on sample or reject ET paintings. The reason I am looking into a "Dual Action" orbital buffer is, "The rotating and orbiting of the pad produces what many refer to as a "jiggling" motion. This irregular motion prevents the polisher from burning the paint, which refers to removal of paint below the clear coat surface. Dual action polishers are very USER FRIENDLY because they produce very little heat compared to a rotary polisher. 

That said, as you say, they are meant for automotive finishes. I am looking into the type of pads available and most are "foam." There are some that do cut into the surface and others that are for polishing only. There are others that are "microfiber. " The finishing microfiber pads which are supposed to be safer but I need to look into it more. I have not yet sprung for the machine but did order a "finishing" microfiber pad that I thought I would try out without the machine first.

Which brings me to the question: is there any concensus on the best cloth for polishing an ET? I've heard silk, flannel or T-shirt material. Has microifiber been tried for hand polishing?

Again thank you both for your sage advice!

Lora

​Hello Lora,

Perhaps the lack of response indicates that you are breaking new ground here - so please continue your experiments and let us know how they work out.

For the record, the idea that egg tempera is capable of a soft "egg shell shine" (a term I've used myself) but no more, isn't accurate.  I've seen well-tempered egg temperas carefully, gradually buffed up to a lacquer-like high gloss.  My presumption is that this comes from gradually smothing out the irreuglar surface created by the high pigment load in egg tempera; a gentle, careful polish softens the rough edges of particles proturding above the paint film, to create a more mirror-like surface.   If an attentive polisher avoids visibly marring the surface as he or she polishes, I don't know if there are other risks to pulling out a strong shine (such as weakening the paint film).  Do conservators have any thoughts or experience with this?


Koo Schadler

Hi Matthew,

 

Thank you for your suggestion and insight.

 

Patrick

​Thanks Matthew. I missed the fact that oils over acrylics works very well and that this is also a water medium.

I take it the conservators are still out on the long term stability of WMO paints/paintings?

​Thank you Brian, adding a just a bit of linseed oil to the imprimatura worked really well. Just wanted to share for anyone who might be having the same problem. 

​Oh, an interesting discussion on amber varnishes!

I've searched a little bit more and have more questions. 

Here is a thesis where Sandarac varnishes were prepared and studied. It seems to me that analysis points to little chemical interaction between Sandarac resin and drying oil. Does it mean that such oil-resin varnishes are solutions?

Sandarac is soluble in ethanol, acetone and ether. Alcohols do not mix with oil, but ketones and ethers are. 

So, if I'll dissolve the resin into acetone and pour in linseed oil, what will happen? And If I'll use a low-pressure chamber to evaporate acetone away, leaving only oil and resin?

​Ok yes that woudn't make sense, thank you. What is your opinion on my priming system? Is it possible for an acrylic gesso+alkyd ground to be to absorbent? 

​Thank you Brian for your answer. I will try adding more oil to the mix. I still worry that the sizing/priming of the canvas I'm currently using is to absorbent. I use five layers of acrylic gesso and two of an alkyd based oil ground, both made by Zecchi (a manufacturer from Florence). The finish is extremly matte and feels I would say arid. Would you recomend rubbing a bit of oil into the last layer of oil ground, before the imprimatura, in order to make the surface less absorbent? 

I guess mine is true rabbit then, because the smell is really strong (lucky me), but it works. Thank you for your answers!

​Thank you for the answers!

​Thanks a lot for your replies!

Hello,

There are three ways for pigments to enter your body: Absorption (through skin); ingestion (eat it); and inhalation (breath it). Pigments range from relatively innocuous (used in make-up and food) to poisonous (made from arsenic, mercury, lead, heavy metals).   Toxic pigments are more of a concern in tempera than most other mediums because (1) Tempera artists start with powdered pigments, which are easily inhaled, and (2) the high percentage of pigment in tempera paint (high pigment volume concentrate, or PVC ) means pigment particles slightly protrude above the surface of the paint film; in other words, pigments aren't fully encased by binder, so toxic colors in the paint film are partially exposed.  Tempera artists often rest their hands on a painting's surface, as well as sand, polish or otherwise work the surface.  These actions combined with high PVC make a tempera painter more susceptible to touching or inhaling toxic colors if they are part of a palette.

To avoid toxicity, choose a 100% non-toxic palette or take sensible precautions, as you should for any medium.  To avoid skin absorption, wear gloves ("Nitrile" gloves are recommended) or rub on an artist's shielding lotion (such as "Gloves in a Bottle" or "Skin Safer"). To prevent ingestion obviously don't stick brushes in your mouth, eat or drink at your work area, and wash your hands diligently after painting.  To avoid inhalation, always wear a mask when handling pigments in powder form. Look for a "disposable particulate respirator" (more commonly known as a dust mask) rated at least N95 (95% filtration) up to N100 (100% filtration).  

However toxicity isn't the only concern with inhalation -  even if you work with non-toxic colors, dust is an irritant to the lungs and can damage them over time.  So regardless of the colors in a palette, I'm a big advocate of converting powdered pigments to pastes by combining with water.  Once in paste form a pigment is safely suspended and a dust mask no longer necessary. 

There are "shortcuts" to pigment pastes.  Rather than make them yourself you can buy commerically produced pigment pastes, generally known as water-based dispersions (Natural Pigments, Kremer, Guerra are a few companies I know selling them). 

Here is my shortcut.   I make my most often used colors into pastes, then fill the wells of two, round watercolor palettes with them:

Pigments watercolor palette.jpg 

These pastes (no egg added – just pigment and water) dry out overnight, so first thing I do each morning is re-wet them with water using a bulb syringe.  

PIgments re-hydrated.jpg

Most colors reconstitute quite readily, with no mixing necessary; by the time I've put on my apron and organized my workspace, they are sufficiently paste-like again. The benefit of this method is efficiency.  Instead of having to go into individual jars of pigment pastes every day to maintain them and extract my colors for the day, my pigment pastes are already out and waiting for me in the watercolor palette.  Granted, they dry out overnight – but not back to readily airborne powders, instead into chunks of dry earth (or "cakes", which is how pigments were once sold) – and, as discussed, they turn quickly back into pastes with a squirt or two of water. The drawback is that, when dry, they can both attract and generate a little bit of dust, so I cover them when not in use.  As you can see the palettes get a bit messy, but there's always pure color in the center of the well to draw from when needed. I do keep titanium white separate so it doesn't afffect other colors' values or transparency.

Art related health problems are generally cumulative; the effects become apparent only after many years, when it's too late to undo past practices.  So while many painters find it tedious to make and maintain pigment pastes, I believe it's really worthwhile to start with good pratices.  It's good you are thinking about these things.

Koo Schadler

 

Hello,

These are great questions, albeit difficult to answer, especially without scientific analysis or an in person examination. I'm not a conservator, but I have worked as an egg tempera painter and teacher for many years – so I'll offer some ideas with the caveat that they are guesses.  Here goes:

1. What do I see at the edges of paint flakes divided by craquelure? I think that when the ground layer cracked, separate flakes slightly curved and their edges raised. Next, paint near edges of flakes was abraded during handling and cleaning of the painting, upper layers of paint were stripped. So at the edges near minuscule cracks I see lower paint layers. Is this correct?

When you say "ground layer", perhaps you're referring to the initial layer of paint; however if, by ground layer, you mean gesso, I want to clarify that a traditional gesso ground only tends to crack shortly after being made if it contains too much glue or a bad glue; or it can crack later if it's dropped or hit very hard (then you see a localized crack that spreads out from point of impact), or the wood panel underneath moves and/or the grain pattern telegraphs through (although generally fabric was/is applied over wood to mitigate this). But a well-made gesso itself, as far as I know, doesn't crack into craquelure as it ages.  It's the paint, as it shrinks, that develops craquelure. Is that accurate, Brian? 

It's hard to say what appears within the craquelure: is it underpainting, gesso or wood showing through; or dirt in the cracks accumulated over the centuries sealed by later varnishes; or a later varnish that's darkened…? A painting of this age (500+ years) has been through a lot. I would guess a conservator can answer. What I can say is that the brown within the craquelure on the flesh would not be an underpainting of brown; tempera layers are so thin, and so many have to be accumulated to render a form, that you don't begin with a dark layer to render a local light.  

Within the long vertical and horizontal cracks (which don't appear to be craquelure) on the chest, I'd say the darker brown color of the cracks is, in fact, the initial shirt color. On top of an initial layer of brown, Botticelli layered more paint to model the form – it's those upper color layers that have been abraded or delaminated in the cracks, revealing Botticelli's initial layers of paint within the cracks.  

2. How transitions between light and dark parts of the face were applied, particularly at the nose and cheek? I see darker spots of paint without clearly defined edges. They appear to be spatially oriented as if they are parts of longer brush strokes. What causes this interrupted appearance? Are they a result of paint abrasion? Or his panel was grounded with some texture and we see an effect similar to watercolour granulation on rough paper?

Traditional gesso was sanded very smooth, so I don't think it's granulated texture in the ground itself you're seeing. Some dark spots may be pinholes in the gesso.  It's not uncommon to get pinholes when building up gesso layers (although pinholes aren't inevitable with proper gesso technique).  Pinholes tend to suck up concentrated amounts of paint, so if Botticelli glazed umber over the flesh at any point, a pinhole would turn into a dark dot.  Attached here is close-up from a Botticelli portrait – there are pinholes all over the surface (apparently his apprentice wasn't very careful with the gesso that day). 

Pinholes, Botticelli.jpg

Another explanation for the granulation effect is complicated, so bear with me. Tempera is built up in many, many, many layers.  With so many distinct layers and brushstrokes, a certain amount of texture is created along the way. (In particular when applying paint with a sponge, as I do. I know of no evidence to support Renaissance painters using sponges to speed up the otherwise slow development of tempera paint layers; but I do know that Annigoni, a renown early 20thc. tempera painter, ended up doing this.)  Anyhow, tempera is also a very telegraphic medium – underlying textures readily show through – so texture from accumulated paint layers starts to influence how fresh paint lies on the surface.  Finally, because tempera paint is applied so thinly, even opaque colors (such as white) tend to behave more or less semi-transparently. In other words: innumerable brushstrokes, multiplying transparent or semi-transparent layers, accumulating textures – all, to some degree, are visibly interacting with and affecting one another.  It can create a sort of consistently inconsistent, granulated look to a surface. 

3. Opening the image in GIMP and using a CIELch colour picker reveals complex variations of hues, particularly at skin areas. How such variability was achieved? 

As described above.  I'll also attach a close up of a portrait of mine – looking closely, you'll see a similar weave of colors within the generally local flesh color.  

K. S. Flesh Closeup.jpg

I apply anywhere from 40 to 200 distinct layers to paint flesh.  This sounds impossibly laborious, but because a thin layer of tempera dries to the touch within seconds, it's possible to apply many, even scores, of layers within a day. Botticelli, being such a master, probably didn't need as many layers as I do!  Still, given the thinness of tempera paint, he undoubtedly applied a lot of layers in order to achieve as developed, realized a surface as he did. 

In my understanding of egg tempera technique, a painter mixes pigments in raw state, grinds them on a stone with binder and puts resulting paints in dishes. 

I don't mean to nitpick, but in general colors were/are ground first, then stored as powders; so when a powdered pigment is combined with binder it's being dispersed (not ground). It's a small yet important distinction; appreciating it helps one to better understand the paint making process.

Without mixing on a palette since tempera dries fast. I have several guesses, but what is correct? Perhaps, many pigment mixtures were composed in raw state? Or he composed just a few pigment mixtures and applied them in several very thin layers of varying density? Or he used tempera grassa which dries slower and mixed it on a palette like oil paints? Or the painting was heavily overpainted during many conservation efforts and we see a result of using slightly different pigment mixtures by restorers? This is certainly the case near some major cracks and scratches, but to what extent other areas are overpainted?

As Brian notes, the indirect (many layers of paint applied over time) method used by Renaissance tempera painters developed out of the icon tradition.  (A good, contemporary book on the Icon tradition is: Hart, Aidan.  Technique of Icon and Wall Painting, Freedom Publishing, Australia, 2011.)   There is more variability between icon traditions than is sometimes appreciated; still, there is a general working method that continues to this day, so if you read over any contemporary icon practice you'll have a general grasp of the tradition.  It was (and still is) a very precisely ordered method; it is also a spiritual practice, so deviation is discouraged. 

Renaissance tempera painting arose out of the icon working method, but there was more freedom to elaborate on it.  Renaissance painters did work within a studio's established practices; still, painters were individuals and able, specifically masters, to modify a method to suit his individual nature and goals. All of this is to say that I don't think there was a single, unaltered way to work in the Renaissance; within the influence of the icon tradition and a studio's general practice, there was some individuality and improvisation.  This is apparent when one looks close up at portraits by Ghirlandaio, Botticelli, Cosimo Tura, Fra Angelico, etc. 

It's not possible to physically blend tempera paint on the surface of a painting; but you can intermix dry pigments (as they did to make "cinabrese", a Caucasian flesh color made from lead white, yellow ocher, and vermillion), and/or intermix tempered colors on a palette, and/or layer them one atop the other within a painting – or do all three at various points within a painting. Renaissance artists were generally reluctant to intermix expensive, high chroma colors with a dirtying earth colors (high chroma was much harder to come by in those days); in those instances they generally layered.  Finally, Renaissance painters generally worked efficiently (Leonardo being an exception), were masterfully trained, and probably wouldn't have endlessly noodled with layers (as I, sigh, sometimes do). These are some of the things I think about when trying to understand how they painted.   

4. Is there a darker layer of paint under light areas of the skin? Or lighter parts were painted straight on a white ground with some sketch made with dark coloured lines? I guess I see darker underlayer in a lower left corner of his neck near the fur collar.

As mentioned above, they did not underpaint a local light with dark in tempera – too much work to overcome the dark.  They generally (tho' not always) modeled a form first in ink (watered to a range of values) to establish the value pattern and help the darks along (faster to overcome the white of gesso with initial wash of ink); atop that, they modeled the form with green (either clean or dirty), which helps create halftones.  Next they built up light values using  a warm, relatively opaque (almost nothing is fully opaque in tempera; it's too thin a medium) paint; and deepened darks with warm, low chroma, transparent paint.  Between the light and dark - where the edges of the warm, opaque flesh paint overlap the green earth underpainting - a cool pearlesence, as described by Brian, is created. This is a scumbling effect (akin to how mist turns a distant green landscape blue) that conveys the cool halftone of flesh.  Amidst this systematic method there were lots of opportunities (given how many layers tempera necessitates) to glaze, scumble, improvise.  The variability of brushstroke and how much you do or don't thin tempera paint also contributes to the variability among Renaissance tempera painters.   

An excellent book for understanding the related yet varied ways in which Renaissance artists began their paintings is by Billlinge, Rachael (and others), Art in the Making: Underdrawings in Renaissance Painting, National Gallery London, 2002. As I say above, within general visual principles (such as "cool halftones") that guided traditional  imagery, and whatever studio tradition an artist worked, individual natures and goals manifested themselves; more so in the Renaissance than in prior eras because of the increasing individuality of artists that emerges at the time.   

5. What happened with some hairs of the left eyebrow (model's right eyebrow)? I see crisp lines of dark coloured paint but a couple of lines are very dim. Were they abraded? Or they are parts of preliminary drawing covered by subsequent paint layers?

My guess is that they are thin strokes of tempera – this is what a single layer of tempera generally looks like (and why one needs to build many layers to fully render a form and achieve any sense of solidity).  Botticelli left a few thin, individual strokes both above and below (see in the shadows) the eyebrow, probably to soften the edges so the eyebrow doesn't look penciled on. 

6. The overall skin color is very yellow, about 1/3 more yellow than a real skin color of a Caucasian man could potentially be - I am judging by CIELab colour coordinates and limits given in an article by A. Chardon «Skin colour typology and suntanning pathways». I wonder is this a result of binder or varnish yellowing? Or an artistic choice to make it look more saturated?

The majority (maybe all?) of Renaissance panel paintings were varnished at some point in their long life, and most old varnishes yellow, so it might be an old varnish (unless it was recently cleaned).  If the painting contains either oil and/or tempera grassa (Botticelli worked in both at times) oil could have yellowed the painting. However he most often worked in egg tempera, and egg yolk does not yellow with age. 

Regardless, while the painting may be a tad warmed with age (hard to say) I don't think it appears overly so.  Painters of the past nearly always created relationships between warm and cool colors.  In a painting yellowed by age everything is overlaid with a warm film and cools are lost. In this painting the browns, reds and flesh colors are warm; but the fur trim, white shirt ruffles, highlight above the lips, whites of the eyes are cool greys - they don't look overtly warmed. So I don't think the color temps in the painting are necessarily too far from the original. 

It's possible to argue the subject's skin in fact is a warm, olive color not atypical of many Italians.  But that misses the point that Renaissance artists did not paint realistically, they painted representationally.  I very much doubt Botticelli was overly concerned with getting the real skin color of a Caucasian man.  As much as he was creating a portrait, he was creating an image, and making it visually interesting and exciting was part of the job. The warm yellow chroma of the skin is played beautifully against the achromatic black background; and cool halftones within warm flesh each accentuate the other.  So I agree with your last statement, it was an artistic choice. 

7. The color of his fancy hat is puzzling. Too orange for an ordinary cinnabar. I guess its color is an effect of particle size - somewhere I've heard that very finely ground cinnabar turns almost to carrot-orange. Or is it a result of fine glaze applied atop of cinnabar? Or another pigment was used too, like realgar or orpiment?

My experience is that vermillion, which is the manufactured version of cinnabar, and was, I believe, more common in the Renaissance, is an orangey red – so the hat is not far off, maybe a bit warmer, which could be accounted for with a glaze of yellow on top. 

Probalby more than you needed to know, but it's a worthwhile challenge to try to understand Botticelli.

Koo Schadler

​Thank you very much, I find both articles very interesting. 

It seems that the question about pigments used to paint his hat is answered: contents of mercury and tin were found in a closely related painting, and it it said that lead-tin yellow type I was identified in other places, probably the hat is so orange because lead-tin yellow was added to vermillion.

However, I have new questions. It is said that flesh colors were mostly painted using green earth and lead white underpainting; yellow earth, lead white and vegetable black subsequent layers; lead white with vermillion highlights. I have several green earths: chlorite, celadonite and glauconite, all are really green - very suitable to paint a zombie. Did they used some other form of green earth of dark-yellow color without such pronounced green component? Perhaps what is now known as "Antica green earth" or "tobacco coloured chlorite"?

Also it is said that zones of monotonous color were applied in first stages of painting process. Is this technique close to Byzantine icon painting sequence

​Thank you Mr O'Hanlon. I would refer you to https://www.cerakote.com    .  This is I believe the way to go to protect from oxidation and retain a shiney surface. The website says it all

​Since posting my last inquiry about adhering paper to an aluminum  panel, I've done a little homework. My concern was that the exposed edge of the aluminum panel would oxidize and dull from a high reflective gloss finish if left to oxidize without any protection. Initially chromate conversion was recommended as a means to protect the aluminum from oxidized discoloration,... over time. But today I found this company that recommends Cera-kote, a substance sprayed on aluminum that is a super=protective, clear coating,  that can withstand heat, is corrosion resistant including any oxidation. It is used to coat gun parts and industrial machined parts and the coating takes up no space. Since I want to Bevo dry-mount my paper to an aluminum panel, my concern is for this protective coating which would be done first. My concern is for off-gasing of the coating but from what I'm being told, this is the way to go. The company that does this process is Dayton Gray in N.J. Anybody with comments?  --Doug

Oil painting is the process of painting with pigments with a medium of drying oil as the binder. An artist might use several different oils in the same painting depending on specific pigments and effects desired. The paints themselves also develop a particular consistency depending on the medium. Artist blending the wet paint to made the oil painting on canvas without following the Renaissance-era approach of layering and glazing. 

​Thank you for your answer.

I think I will leave the RSG be for now. I've also decided to use oil based grounds and just accept the long drying time. I was revisiting the information sheet on adhesives and sizes. I see that two coats of GAC 200 perform best in stiffness and oil blocking. I wonder though, as the product is recomended for non porous surfaces, if it will work best on canvas. I thought about using a coat of GAC 400 under the 200, but might that be an overkill? I see moderate stiffness is also achieved through three coats of acrylic gesso, but I have to say I don't really like it as a material. 

Stiffness is really important to me, because of the hardening of the oil film with time. So I guess my question is: which is the best combination of polymer dispersion mediums in order to achieve highest stiffness and good penetration of the medium on the support? 

My next problem is that, living in Italy, I don't have easy access to the Golden products. Import taxes and shipping costs are quite high, so I have been trying to find similar products locally. Unfortunately I haven't jet had any success. I understand that these products are quite unique, but I still wanted to ask if you can give me any information on the matter. 

Thank you for all the additional ressources, I'm looking forward to reading into it. 



​Thanks Brian, George, Sarah,

Sarah, indeed the sample panel I recieved was from Simon Liu. Brian, if you follow Sarah's link you will see an image of the panel which is indeed a greenish-cream color. For the record, I lightly sanded and then adhered some heavy linen to the fiberglass face with Lineco PVA adhesive and let it dry under pressure overnight. Another 24 hours later I can tear the linen off the face fairly easily but the adhesion issue does not seem to be with the fiberglass: the glue and even some linen scraps are stuck to the face. - Eli

Thanks for looking into this Brian, ​It's hard to describe but it may be more of a fiberglass panel face. It appears the honeycomb aluminium core is not faced with a thin sheet of aluminium, rather just the fiberglass which is a millimeter or so thick, rigid, and I can see a kind of small hexagon weave through it...

​Thank you Laura, 

That is extremely helpful! In case you are curious about this project, here is a link to a picture of a small study (6"x6"):

 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DUwmiSvLdcYKbx0pFueveyZLebrnrc6f/view?usp=sharing

Thanks to all of you for taking the time to give me suggestions. This forum is an amazing resource! 

Best wishes,

Krista Schoening


Thanks, I tried to look up older posts but there is no "Paper" section here, or "mixed-media." That post isnt' so useful, I don't use old newspaper, I just was previously buying pads of newsprint and am trying to move away from that. I do cover them in a clear acrylic (not the same as gloss medium, but still probably delays change to it).


To the other poster - I will look into those options and was meaning to scope out printmaking paper next time I go to an art supply store. Thanks.​

​Thank you, Matthew and Brian. Matthew, your suggestion to look at techniques derived from sailmaking is a very promising idea. I will look into it! 

Hi Sarah and George,

 

Thank you for the great links related to Zinc White question. I have read them all and have dutifully placed my Zinc White into a hiatus.

I do have two quick follow up questions relating to Sarah's mention of using Lead White.

First, is there any major difference in using some of the newer synthetic Lead White oils versus the more expensively  made Lead Whites? Flake White?

Also, do you have several direct links that provide information on mixing Titanium White with Lead White and the benefits of using just Lead White?

An advance Thank You!

Patrick McGuire

​Thanks for the quick response George! Any advice on good methods for adhereing fabric to aluminum? BEVA seems common and I imagine acrylic mediums could work...

On another note. I've just done a test of traditional gesso on honeycomb fiberglass. It's only been a couple of days but so far the adhesion seems decent. Have you experimented with fiberglass? I'm trying to get the manufactureres specs on it, will post later if I find them. Thanks! - Eli Bornowsky

I use panels, which I unforunately sealed with shellac (to protect a drawing) and I have started using gesso on this surface to help adherance of mixed media work. I found that regular gesso (clear gesso by liquitex) had no problem adhering to the shellac surface, and I have had no evidence or threat of delamination or separation etc... I have not used RSG gesso, though. I plan to stop using shellac on future panels though.

Golden actually makes a product now called "Isolation Coat." I was just looking into this recently. From their website:

Isolation Coat is a ready-to-use sealing coat for acrylic paintings. Previously acrylic artists’ only recourse was to dilute Soft Gel Gloss with water (our former and still acceptable recommendation) before applying it to completed acrylic artwork. Isolation Coat eliminates the need to measure and mix while increasing flow and leveling. Isolation coat is a permanent acrylic medium that seals surface absorbency and allows for improved varnish application and easier varnish removal. Apply one or more layers before varnishing​.

​Hi Sarah,

Thanks so much for responding, I've read a lot of your posts over the past few years here and on JustPaint, and I love how in depth you go with the technical info. 


I didn't know lead white was so important for long term binding. I'm used to using titanium white and sometimes zinc white. Should I use traditional lead white or would something like flake white replacement also give me the same long term benefits while also being safer to use? I've never even seen lead or flake white so I'm not sure what brands to look for. 


I will be panting on cradled plywood panels, it's the current best inflexible support I know of and have access too. I would like to switch to honeycomb panels one day when funds permit though. I used to wrap canvas around my panels but stopped doing that because I don't want it to sag from the weight of the paint. I don't know at what size this can become an issue though. 


I was going to use the soft molding paste because of it's lightness, but since you say not to what would you suggest? I want to try piping the paste out of piping tubes with frosting nozzles for some fun designs, so I need something that can pass through that. I also considered trying the hard molding paste for things I do with a pallet knife. Am I able to thin the molding paste down to make it more workable or will that compromise how hard it is?


​Thanks so much, Matthew.  Koo

​I was using the Instacoll System and not the Instaclay. So the one I was using is not clay-based and according to the directions there isn't sanding involved. I just watched some online videos of people using it, and it appears that a careful pooling and dragging of the size to fill an area without over-brushing creates a smoother surface. I will give that a try. Thank you again.

​Thank you for these great responses. I have one more question. I was recently using the Kolner Instacoll gilding system for a project. I used a small brush to apply the size to a specific area. The area, however, maintained my brush strokes when I applied the leaf. Is there any way to maintain a smooth surface or increase the leveling effect when applying something like Instacoll so the leaf won't be affected by the inconsistencies of the brush marks? 

​Could I apply a fixative to the paper to prevent any adverse effects from the size on paper and then gild? Is it possible to oil gild on paper if the paper was first prepared with something like shellac?

​Ok. It's a Maimeri product. It is listed on Blick here. And on Maimeri site here. I'll be very interested to here the results of your enquiries.

Thanks Brian.

​Thank you both for your insights. Interestingly, I think this product has been available for some time although, I can't be sure as I only recently noticed its availability.

​Thank you much, Kristin! I'll reach out to her and report back on the thread if I'm able to work about a solution. 

Best,

Aliza

​Thanks for the replies.  Brian, that's interesting about the acid, I will keep it in mind.  Tom & Susan's book talks a bit about Plike under the section that discusses clay coated papers; it says such papers are "imprinted on both sides with a polymer that contains compounds like kaolinite".  So that seems to be the material used to finish plike.  If you hear anything from the company, Matthew, I'd be most interested.

Koo 

​​Thank you for adding your technical expertise to Matthew's, Brian! 😊

​Thank you for your thoughts, Matthew. It is pretty much as I expected. On the other note...I was thinking Gamvar when I mistakenly typed Galkyd! 😊

Hi Brian,

 

I just heard from a far more experienced metalpoint artist than I, Tom Mazullo.  He and Susan Schwalb just published a comprehensive book on metalpoint: 

 

https://www.routledge.com/Silverpoint-and-Metalpoint-Drawing-A-Complete-Guide-to-the-Medium-1st/Schwalb-Mazzullo/p/book/9780815365907).

 

Tom says metalpoint on panel is sometimes varnished, and recommends Lascaux. 

 

Plike is described as 100% sulphite paper.  I don't really know what that means. Seemingly it's produced from wood-free (lignin removed) primary pulp (cellulose) using ECF (Elementary Chlorine Free).  From what I read on line (I never finished chemistry, so excuse my ignorance here) sulphites contain one sulfur atom – so would that be enough to affect metalpoint in some way (accelerate tarnishing or degrade the marks)?  I agree, as you note, that the exceptionally smooth, compact surface of Plike makes it less able to grab onto metalpoint deposits; but then again, how does such a smooth surface abrade a metal nib in the first place?  That puzzles me a bit.

 

In my tarnishing experiment, the fumes of apple cider vinegar did the most damage to metalmarks (completely erased most of them within 3 days); but Liver of Sulfur, and even a strong exposure to garlic and onion, "faded" or nearly erased some marks.  I don't understand what is happening– are the marks being broken down by the fumes, then taken up into the vapor somehow?  Is the paper being degraded too (and thus losing it's grip on the marks)?  Tom Mazullo says metal is reactive, dissolves in a caustic environment, so he thinks "the metal literally becomes part of the atmosphere, reacting with ions in the air, becoming a new compound and being carried away by airflow."  Sounds plausible but again I don't know. 

 

I am always appreciative of your helpful replies. 

Koo

​Thank you so much, Brian. I reached out to several local conservators but so far none have been willing to take on the job. Any reccomendations you have would be greatly appreciated. I'd love to find a conservator that can assist.

In the meantime, I am looking into creating a setup where I can spray-apply the medium myself. If I have to thin the varnish, Gamblin recommended thinning it with Gamvar Satin or Gloss to reduce the amount of wax, as opposed to thinning it with solvent. I'm not sure if the wax particles will clog the sprayer without thinning the varnish or not. I asked Preval direcly and they simply said "depending on the size". 

Is there another varnish that can be matted through application, manipulation, or after treatment that can be applied on touch-dry paintings (as opposed to paintings that have been drying for six months)? Perhaps I could brush apply them as an alternative to spraying Gamvar Matte? 

This has proved to be quite a research project but I am eager to find a matte varnishing solution that works on touch-dry paintings without leaving brush marks from the application. Thank you again!!

Best,

Aliza

​I remembered something about polyester sailcloths being heat set in some manner.  And I stumbled across this from a site called 'Conservation Support Systems.'  Under lining fabrics, "polyester sailcloth"  "The sail cloth is removed from the production line before any finishes are applied; therefore it is free of all finishing resins, specially melamine-formaldehyde.  The fabric is scoured to remove all contaminants and then heat-set at 400F to tighten the weave.  This pre-shrinking of the material eliminates the possiblity of shrinking or warping during most lining process using heat setting techniques."

Unfortunately it's only 5.5oz and perhaps too light to be used as a primary support.  I'd desire something closer to twice that.

It's possible that this lining fabric might need to be more resistant to heat because it would be in more direct contact with the iron surface?

BTW this 5.5oz is mentioned as "basis weight" and I come from a metric country.  Is there any deviation or oddity to this description?

​Thank you very much, that's quite helpful.

​Thank you for your reply. Certainly much to consider.

The pre-shrunk notion is regarding some form of heat shrink/setting.  Not wet and dry shrinking.  I just tested a strip of polyester 150ml long and by ironing it at "wool" setting one can get it to shrink it to149ml.  Further ironing at this highly precise temp (do I hear laughing?) doesn't seem to reduce it further.  (Increasing the temperature might risk visibly singeing it.)  Now perhaps one could just iron the polyester this way before stretching, but maybe that's not advisable.  Possibly any ironing is just a form of mild but unadvantageous damage.

​Hello Brian,

In other words just adding more linseed oil and a bit of a polymerized oil will make it longer then.  The filler technically will just force me to add more oil to it and thus this will then make it more longer.  So in reality, its truly just about adding more oil to my tube paints or if i grind pigments adding more oil until i get the correct consistency? 

Do your recommend 25% stand and 75% refined linseed oil as a stable mixture?  I know too much stand isnt good because of its low acidity levels.  

Thank you for responding George,

Are there any fillers that you can recommend for me?  Can liquin be considered a filler? 

Thank you,

Hector

​Thanks, Brian. 

​Matthew, 2-3 days seems too expensive to let LEV working, maybe it's possible to speed it up by changing the airflow as Brian implicated.

However, now I know the answer is laborious, maybe impossible to grasp it mathematically. I'll try to get insight to in situ data.

Damir P

​Thanks for your prompt response Brian! What would be the case for sealing the back of the panel first vs after besides the risk of getting stuff you don't want on the front of the finished painting by accident?





Yes, I'm well aware of problems with zinc!
Thanks Brian.​

​OK, great.

The reason I asked was because many artists tone their canvas, or work from a medium value, placing lighter paint on top.
My thought was that the light paint would gradually become more transparent and therefore become darker as the underpainting shows through.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what you've said, this would still be the case if using lead because, as there would bemore lead in the lighter layer, it would possibly form more lead carboxylates.
(Also, being on the surface, it would be exposed to more heat and/or moisture than the underlayers).

I gather this issue isn't as much of a concern for titanium white?
Do metal ions also convert titanium into titanium carboxylates?
And if so, do they have a higher refractive index?

​Thank you, as always, for your valued advice.

​Thanks, Brian - that answers my question.  Koo

​This might not be relevant, but I understand that you can make a stand oil out of walnut oil in the same way you would for linseed oil.

​Hi Ben and Brian,

My question relates to an earlier post, I realize I'm still not clear about it.  Is covering plywood with cloth before gessoing sufficient to prevent checking?  And is the grain pattern of plywood verneer more prone to checking than the grain of solid wood panels (depending on the cut, I suppose)?

Thanks,

Koo

​Kristin asked if I'd weigh in here, since I'm familiar with the panels. I wouldn't say that I'm an expert, exactly, but I do know that they are basically MDO (multiple density overlay) panels, sized and primed with multiple coats of gray-toned acrylic. MDO is a sign-making material designed for outdoor use (it's often used for construction signs)--it's plywood covered on both sides with a resin-impregnated paper that gives it a very smooth, grain-free surface that resists moisture penetration. 

The guy that sells them describes the panel construction in a way that makes them sound like a unique thing that he invented, but... it's MDO. I'm not aware of any studies on the long-term viability of MDO as a painting support. I'm wary of plywood, as the surface veneers are basically guaranteed to check on a long enough timeline. 

MDO is covered by a resin-impregnated paper, so you aren't painting directly on plywood, though, and the paper provides some moisture protection. But it doesn't protect the edges (aka the end-grain) which is where much of the moisture uptake in wood happens. The edges are primed, but acrylic primer isn't much of a moisture barrier, either. My personal suspicion is that MDO will be more resistant to checking than plywood, but may eventually start to exhibit the same sort of problems--deep cracks in the surface veneers that could telegraph through the paper covering. But that is 100% hunch. Some of the conservators here might have more info on MDO in general.


-Ben Sones

​Dear Mr. Kinsey, 
Thank you so much for your thoughtful response. Apologies for the delay in my reply -- I've been out of town. 

I am in NC, so yes, we do have proper clay, though the concerns you raise about the organic content has made me rethink its use. Perhaps another choice can help me balance the conceptual idea with longevity. I am wondering if there is a way to say boil the organic material from the clay, leaving the pigment behind? Or perhaps I could give a nod to the concept by using only natural pigment paints. 

Thanks also for mentioning the lack of lightfastness with the walnut stain.  You are quite right -- I would have thought it to be the most lightfast thing I could use!

I appreciate the time of all of the moderators; thank you for providing this resource. 

 

​Thanks for the clarification. Thanks also for attending to MITRA questions amidst the busyness of life.  Koo

​To make sure I understand: are you saying that alternating plys, with each ply reacting to changes in RH differently, create greater stresses in a panel than, for example, a solid piece of wood, which also expands and shrinks from RH but at least does so consistently, as a unit?  

I have seen the grain pattern of plywood telegraph through paint layers (specifically egg tempera), creating hairline cracks that follow the grain pattern - so I always recommend plywood (and solid wood) be covered with fabric, which I thought sufficient to address the problem.  But it seems more accurate that fabric merely mitigates the problem; and that the long term stresses within alternating plys (that are at odds with one another, so to speak) ultimately will prove more problematic than the initial stability the plys imparted - yes?

I hadn't heard of problems with high quality plywoods delaminating, so that is an additional mark against it.  Thanks for these clarifications - I'll think twice about recommending plywood over solid wood. 

By the way, I've been experimenting with egg tempera on ACM panels.  Drybrush works well, but water intensive applications of paint take much longer to dry (as there is no wood "sponge" underneath to help control the water), which slows the process, creates more lifting. So no perfect answers yet for an egg tempera support. 


Koo

Hi Kristin,

I understand that plywood is not manufactured for artists, to fine art specifications.  Still, I've always thought of plywood as a slightly better support than solid wood because of the greater stability given by multiple plys.  

I was re-reading the "Rigid Supports" document and it says, "Plywood....[is] not considered sufficiently stable for permanent use", followed by various caveats and recommendations for how to improve the longevity of a plywood panel.  Pros, cons and considerations are similarly given for solid wood, but I didn't see an equivalent statement, i.e. solid wood panels are not considered sufficiently stable for permanent use.  So, understanding that any wood-based support (natural or engineered) has inherent challenges, is plywood a more problematic choice than solid wood? 

Thanks,


Koo

 

W​hite lead pigment not only catalyses the drying of oil paint it also builds a network of lead soap structures and hence reinforces the dried paint [ J. J. Boon, F. Hoogland, K. Keune, "Chemical processes in aged oil paints affecting soap migration and aggregation,"  AIC Paintings Specialty Group Postprints, 2006, 19, 18 – 25].  Lead white is not such a strong white pigment as titanium dioxide, but it does have slightly pink cast which may be useful.  Titanium dioxide pigment does not have any effect on the drying of the oil, nor does it form soaps, so it does not help the eventual properties of the dried film, in that sense.

Stuart Croll

​Hi Kristin,

The photos haven't been retouched (in fact, the monk says the color change between the two icons is more dramatic in person than in photos).  I like diving into these painting puzzles, as they help me understand egg tempera better; and if circumstances and monastic rules permited I'd jump at the chance to go to Mt. Athos too!  Thanks for checking in on the mystery of the disappearing icon colors.  Koo

​Fr. Ermaios clarified for me that the panels are in fact made from cedar backs (for a traditional natural wood look) faced with plywood (for stability).  I don't know if they cover the plywood with cloth before gessoing and painting; regardless, VOCs from the cedar seemingly can be ruled out.

Instead, I have been pondering what might be the consequences of high humidity alongside the ocean?  Especially if environmental heat and humidity are on the rise? Salt water conducts, causes reactions, speeds up corrosion....Are there certain pigments (mineral, earth based) that might corrode or become transparent if exposed to high levels of salty humidity?  

​Thanks, everyone - very interesting, particularly the note on VOCs, which is relevant to my latest post on the Mt. Athos icons.  Koo

​Very informative and helpful, George, as always. Thanks.

Whoops.  ​The last question should read, "Would you recommend lead carbonate alone?"

Thannk you, George.

So, ​20% titanium dioxide and 80% lead carbonate would be the optimum for both strength and opacity?

Would you recommend lead oxide alone?   

​Thank you, Brian. Would a fluid medium make sense?

​thanks Matthew, that makes a lot of sense. I’m not too bothered about ditching old canvases, it’s the frames. I’ll just hope to find new canvases the same size or go for boards

​A framer I know of recommended using dots of 100% silicone glue around the back edge of a panel as a way to easily float frame.  One advantage is that a thin knife can be used to detach it without damage if a different framing method is desired down the line. A disadvantage is the unknown longevity of the glue. I have used a dual system to provide a backup -- paper hinges as a failsafe (as if you were float mounting paper art), plus the silicone glue.  

​thank you. I’m a bit relieved it’s not a good idea as I was worried that something would go wrong! It was as much to reuse the frames as the canvases as I find trying to reuse a frame for a different canvas, supposedly the same size, never quite works!

​Thank you so much for your information and suggestions. I apologize for the lengthy delay in my following up -- I had a long string of intense, back-to-back deadlines.

Regarding Ms. Wickens'  suggestion to use spacers behind paintings hung on an exterior wall, how deep should these spacers be to make a difference? I was thinking about using discretely placed foam core strips. (I temporarily took the paintings down from the exterior wall.)

Now that it's wintertime, I'm experiencing quite low humidity in my studio. I've been keeping the temperature lower than usual as recommended, but it hasn't made as much of a difference as I really need. I may experiment with small pans of water again, though when I've tried that in a different space, it seemed virtually ineffective. I think that a humidifier would be too overwhelming for the space.

Thank you again for your time and expertise!

​Thanks, Brian and Hugh!

I've looked for rift-sawn lumber, but it's pretty hard to find, even at my local specialty lumber shop that caters to furniture makers. They do get a variety of quarter-sawn woods, though, so I usually sort through that stock and look for boards where the end grain runs as close to perpendicular to the faces of the board as possible. 



​A bit more context:

The panels are solid wood--in this particular case, quarter-sawn black walnut, though in the past I have also used panels made from white oak, Honduran mahogany, and poplar (I no longer use poplar, as it tends to be less stable, and also quite a bit softer, than those other woods). 

I do understand that the wood needs room to expand in the frame, particularly across the grain (along the grain, it barely moves at all). I factor in expansion when sizing frames using species-specific wood movement calculators, which you can find in a number of places online. Woodworkers use them when fitting panels into paneled door frames or cabinet doors, since if the panels aren't left with sufficient room to expand in the frame, they will crack. 

The panels I'm working with now, I've planed a bit thinner than what I've used in the past--partly to reduce weight, and partly because I've observed that when working with quarter-sawn, straight-grained wood of a relatively stable species, even 1/4"-thick panels aren't likely to warp much. I should also note that I work pretty small--the panel I am prepping today, for example, is 6 inches by 7 inches. 

Anyway, I have used offset clips to fix wood panels in frames in the past, in the manner explained above (secure along the end-grain sides only). I'm just wondering if this approach might be better for keeping the panel centered in the frame, while still allowing it to move freely. I drew up a sketch of what I have in mind; basically the panel would be nested in foam on all sides, so that it would be held in place, but also be free to expand and contract across the grain, and the foam behind it would, ideally, be thick enough to allow the panel to warp, if necessary. 

Regarding the front of the rabbet, where it contacts the painting: I've always used acrylic felt tape as padding, there. Is that a bad idea for works on copper? I had thought that acrylic felt was generally safe to use with anything. 


​Thank you for the thorough response to my query about ABS as a painting substrate. The professional artist who used them for his oil paintings may not have been aware of the possible long term effects on his paintings. Only time will tell.

​My experience with casein has been that the most stable artist casein paints are made with borax, giving them a longer shelf life than those paints made with ammonium carbonate. Is this the ammonia that's being discussed? The idea of adding ammonia to casein paint to improve it's shelf life is new to me. Is there a source for reading about commercially-made artist's caseins having ammonia as an additive? I do know that linseed oil is used in casein paint both as a preservative and to make a waterproof emulsion.

​Thanks, Sarah. You are always straightforward, helpful,  and well informed - it's appreciated.  Koo

I'm glad to know an oven isn't reprehensible, as the point truly is to make durable paintings.  To be clear (rather than glib) I always heat the oven to the desired temp, then turn it off (given how easy it is to get distracted) before I put in artwork.  

It seems copper, zinc, brass, many alloys are reactive with ammonia if moisture is present, so good to know that ammonia may be added to casein.  It seems there are oodles of variables, many of which may be unknown/ unaccounted for, that can affect tarnishing.

Koo

 

​I need to correct: in my third answer, above, I write, "Neither the drawing nor the ground was not disturbed", I meant to say, "Neither the drawing nor the ground was disturbed". 

​Thank you so much Gillian and Sarah! 

Now I understand about commerically produced casein; it's like commerical egg tempera in that a bit of oil must be added to make the ET tube-able, whereas egg tempera from scratch doesn't need oil (but lasts for only a day, or a few, if refrigerated - and when it goes bad, may smell even worse than old casein).  

Thanks for the Palladium recommendation, I will give it a try.  I see Rio Grande offers it in wire form - any other suppliers you'd suggest?

I too would love to hear a chemist talk about silver sulfide, reactivity of copper in sterling silver alloy, etc (hint to any chemists who might be listening). 

And don't tell the conservators, but I've done the oven trick myself (we are very bad, I know).  You've shared a ton of very useful, esoteric information - thanks a million Tom. 

Koo

Any thoughts on how to discourage chipping?

I've found that with aqueous paints, applying the subsequent layer while the previous layer is still evaporating (cool to the touch) allows the layers to bond more fully, and chipping is reduced. Applying a new layer over a dry underlayer for some reason sometimes causes the top layer to flake off, even if the underlayer is sanded. I apply two layers, the second layer goes on while the first is still damp but not obviously wet. This is tricky because with too-vigorous application of the new layer, the underlayer can dissolve. In each subsequent layer for that reason I add a little more water to the prep for smoother flow. I sand the top layer after the casein is dry and has had time to cure.

Tom, when you say you draw on "well-cured" casein, how long is your cure time?  Does the casein become noticeably harder, more resistant?  I couldn't find ingredients for Pelikan Casein – does it contains oil?  Why is oil added to casein?

Minimum 24 hours, ideally a week. It depends on the casein – Plaka: 24 hours (or dried in a warm turned-off oven!); Shiva: 48 hours or more, Homemade (emulsion and pigment): 24 - 48 hours or more; Wrights of Lymm: a week; Sinopia: weeks (Sinopia has more linseed oil than it needs).

Casein becomes harder and more waterproof after curing; meaning it dents with a blind stylus when it is only a day dry, and can be removed with vigorous wiping with water (handy).

I have no idea what precisely Pelikan Plaka contains, but all commercial casein contains some preservative, usually linseed oil to create an emulsion. Without oil casein has a shelf life of a few days at most because it is made from milk protein turned into a type of glue with an alkali reaction. You can make casein yourself with cottage cheese and borax! It will spoil in a few days and your house will smell terrible even longer.

Any thoughts on the challenge of coloring a drawing using water-based paints atop water-soluble (animal glue or gouache) grounds? How long does casein need to cure to be insoluble to water?

I think with a light touch watercolor over soluble grounds is do-able. If you scrub like Homer you'll dissolve the ground eventually. I would rather use pastel applied to a soft-hair brush for coloring an RSG or Gouache ground. 

Casein is a different animal – after curing a week you can be assured that a well-worked application of aqueous paint over a drawing on casein prep will leave the ground intact. I have done drawings with metalpoint on medium-toned casein ground then applied Chinese White over the drawing for a chiaroscuro effect, only to regret adding the highlights; I then completely removed the Chinese white by scrubbing it away with a soft brush dipped in clean water, then blotting. Neither the drawing nor the ground was not disturbed. Chapter 5 in our book may answer some of these issues, it's all about mixed media!

Thanks, Tom, for your generous offer to share resources.  I found everything I initially planned for.  I haven't yet tried magnesium; is it worthwhile?  Any other metal possibilities?

Magnesium is highly reactive, and completely disappeared from a gesso ground within days of application. It did better on RSG/Zinc white (more inert?) ground, but faded substantially. Avoid it for anything but a gimmick.

I have been using Palladium extensively for soft shadows. It is a very light-drawing metal and retains its luster when compared to silver, creating an interesting warm/cool effect. I also got hooked on Argentium Sterling silver because it is wonderfully soft. Argentium is an alloy of silver with Germanium, designed to resist tarnish, and the combination of Argentium and Palladium is nice, the lusters are very compatible.

Why did silica & pumice bring out the color of metal nibs?  Given their hardness, more metal is abraded, but titanium white and glass also are very hard and, while they made darker marks, they didn't make more colorful marks.  Any ideas?  Perhaps something to do with the structure of silica and pumice, how light is scattered?

Perhaps. I think that pigments are reactive with metals, but silica and pumice are more inert. Like the difference between making tomato sauce in an enamel vs. plain cast iron pot: the pan affects the flavor. For example, Zinc Oxide white  tends to allow gold to look characteristically ochre, but Titanium Dioxide white for some reason robs gold of its luster. Similar things happen when metalpoint preps have copper-based pigments added, such as Phthalocyanine blues and greens.

I thought a layer of tarnish protects the underlying metal from further corrosion.  If so, why do some metalpoint marks disappear after too much exposure to a tarnishing environment?   Is it because a metal mark is so thin there is only a degraded tarnish layer, which falls apart?  Or is the ground (and hence it's ability to hold onto metal particles) being degraded? Or both?  What literally happens to metal marks that vanish? I realize these are complicated questions that perhaps can't be answered; I'm just looking to better understand metals, tarnishing, corrosion. 

It does for sure on a large metal object like a spoon, but many things affect these atom-thin metal marks in our drawings. Paper quality, ground composition, air quality. Metal is reactive, and dissolves in a caustic environment. I think the metal literally becomes part of the atmosphere, reacting with ions in the air, becoming a new compound and being carried away by airflow. Under normal care, I doubt the ground is giving way. The drawing process presses metal into the ground, and it should stay there unless abraded. I would love to hear a chemist talk about silver sulfide, reactivity of copper in sterling silver alloy, etc.

Tom mentioned humidity speeds up tarnishing.  Why is this so?  More exposure to oxygen (which, from what I understand, is the primary agent of tarnishing)?

The air is denser, and its particulate composition would be too. Come to Denver. Thin, clean air and no tarnish on silverpoints unless one monkeys with the ground. And not oxygen for silver - sulfur! Silver sulfide is the primary tarnish compound we would see. Oxidation is a bit of a misnomer for tarnish.

Regarding adding egg yolk (sulphur) to liquid prep to increase tarnishing – Tom, do you mean mix yolk directly into a ground?  Are there considerations to adding egg yolk to various binders (animal glue, casein, gum arabic, synthetic polymers)?

I do. A squeeze of half an eyedropper into two ounces of liquid prep will aid in tarnish, as well as create a more solid, hard, smooth surface for drawing. The only consideration is that adding too much yolk can destabilize the ground, causing it to flake. Too much also creates a glossy ground. A little does the trick. I wouldn't add it to acrylic emulsion though. Or maybe I would. That's something I have to test.


Best, Tom M.

Hello All,

 

I appreciate everyone's comments.  Thanks to Tom Mazzullo, an experienced metalpoint artist, for writing in -  your expertise is appreciated, Tom.

 

I concluded several experiments and have results to share.  To clarify, I'm not scientifically trained & can't say variables were perfectly controlled or results replicable.  Still, there are things to note.  Pardon the considerable text!  I did edit but there were 4 tests and a lot to describe.  Brian, feel free to edit if it's inappropriate to mention specific products.  New questions from me appear in bold. All comments welcome. 

 

TEST PANEL 1 - Grounds

I tested 17 grounds (3 animal glue, 2 casein, 1 gouache, 9 synthetic polymers, plike and terraskin papers) by marking each with 12 metal nibs (hardness Mohs 1.5 to 4).  My criteria for a good ground were: (1) Capable of being smoothed (sandable), so nib doesn't skip and mark making is consistent; (2) capable of creating relatively dark marks.

 

- All grounds performed well enough to recommend, although some were clearly better than others.

 

- I preferred a solid support and multi-layered ground that can be sanded and allows for working the surface during the drawing process.  As Tom noted, multi-layered grounds were prone to chipping.  I think working on a rigid support (I used MDF) and good surface preparations (wiping panel with alcohol, then roughing up surface before application of ground) can help to counter this.   

 

            Any thoughts on how to discourage chipping?

 

- I tried 9 polymer-based grounds.  The more polymer in a ground = less prone to chipping but more difficult to sand, and less hard/resistant surface = less dark marks.   The more pigment/filler in a ground = more prone to chippingbut easier to sand, and harder/more resistant surface = darker marks.   It was a tradeoff. 

 

-  Gouache & Casein were good grounds but difficult to develop a sufficiently thick coating to sand to ideal smoothness.  I don't like the feel of paper fibers coming through (but some artists may).  Pelikan Plaka casein did allow for multiple layers, but final surface didn't feel sufficiently resistant; however I cured it for only 2 days before drawing.

 

           Tom, when you say you draw on "well-cured" casein, how long is your cure time?  Does the casein become noticeably harder, more resistant?  I couldn't find ingredients for Pelikan Casein – does it contains oil?  Why is oil added to casein?

 

- I too saw the effect mentioned by Tom and Brian:  The color of a metal point is visibly (sometimes dramatically) affected (appears more or less colorful) depending on the ground to which it's applied.  I suppose there are too many variables to say precisely why this is so, but it's an important consideration for metalpoint artists.

 

- Black Gesso was sandable and takes metalpoint very well. Metal nibs on black ground yield more distinctly colored marks reflective of the metal.

 

- If an artists wants to later color a drawing, an insoluble (synthetic polymer-based) ground may be preferred so that applications of watercolor, gouache or egg tempera won't rewet and disturb the underlying ground and metalpoint marks.   

            

            Any thoughts on the challenge of coloring a drawing using water-based paints atop water-soluble (animal glue or gouache) grounds? How long does casein need to cure to be insoluble to water?

 

TEST PANEL 2 - Different Metals

 

To a single ground I applied different metals: lead, lead-tin, tin, bismuth, antimony, pewter, zinc, pure silver, sterling silver, argentium silver, gold (22K, 18K, 14K), aluminum, bronze, copper, yellow brass, red brass, nickel, platinum.

I used fine and blunt points, thin wires and thick rods, rough chunks of metal (i.e. a block of antimony ordered from China for $2).  The variety was extensive and fun.    

- Metals with Mohs 2 hardness or less aren't easily worked with a fine point, the tip too readily bends. You either need a fat stylus that can stand up to pressure or, if using a fine stylus, have to continually re-straightening the tip of soft metals. 

- Some metals aren't readily available as wire or rod; you have to find a smith willing to melt and shape the metal for you (as I did for pewter and bismuth).  

            Thanks, Tom, for your generous offer to share resources.  I found everything I initially planned for.  I haven't yet tried magnesium; is it worthwhile?  Any other metal possibilities?

 

TEST PANEL 3 - Abrasive Additives 

 

I added 20% of each additive (listed below) to a polymer-based gesso; sanded smooth; then drew with 5 nibs (pewter, gold, silver copper, brass).  Additives were: Marble Dust, Gypsum, Silica, Glass Powder, Bone Ash, Barite, Talc, Pumice, Titanium White, Zinc White, Large micron size historical pigments (Green Earth, Yellow Ocher, Diptasio, Lazurite, Malachite).

 

- All additives increased abrasion to some degree (a little to a lot) resulting in darker (to varying degrees) marks.  

 

-  Adding too much of an abrasive (above approx. 20%) made ground more vulnerable to chipping. 

 

- Large micron-sized, historical pigments had the least effect, a barely perceptible change in darkness.  They made the surface rough and irregular = less consistent marks.  Overall historical pigments were not agood strategy to improve mark making.

 

- Best results (darkest marks) obtained with Silica and Pumice. Given their high Mohs hardness (7 and 6 respectively) seems hardness of additive more effective than particle size in abrading metal nibs.  Bone ash, titanium and zinc also worked well to enhance marks.

 

- Silica and pumice also notably enhanced metal colors (a beautiful effect).  When silica or pumice was added to a ground, the distinct colors of gold, copper and brass nibs were much more apparent, almost an iridescdent quality.   Pumice created the most pronounced effect.  

 

            Why did silica & pumice bring out the color of metal nibs?  Given their hardness, more metal is abraded, but titanium white and glass also are very hard and, while they made darker marks, they didn't make more colorful marks.  Any ideas?  Perhaps something to do with the structure of silica and pumice, how light is scattered?  

 

- I figured talc and gypsum, given their Mohs number (lower than most metal nibs), would not increase darkness of marks; but they did, albeit minimally.  Don't understand why so I'd like to replicate this test, to be sure. 

 

TEST PANEL 4 - Tarnish Test Panels

 

I tested 7 grounds (Plike paper, Rublev Tempera Ground, Artboards Ground, Pelikan Casein, Gouache, Rublev Silverpoint Ground, Black Gesso).  Each ground was marked with 8 metal nibs (Bismuth, Zinc, 14 K Gold, 24 K Gold, Pure Silver, Sterling Silver, Brass, Copper).

 

I made seven identical panels, with Panel 1 a Control panel (not exposed to tarnishing substance).  Other panels subjected to six tarnishing environments (Panel 2 = Cardboard box [not airtight] with open jar of liver of sulphur; Panel 3 = Sealed glass container with open jar of liver of sulphur; Panel 4 = Sealed glass container with liver of sulphur at bottom, test panel directly over sulphur; Panel 5 = Sealed glass container with chopped onion; Panel 6 = Sealed glass container with chopped garlic; Panel 7 = Sealed glass container with open jar of apple cider vinegar.)  Panels were scanned after 24, 48 and 72 hours of exposure to tarnishing environment.  

 

- Small changes created very different results.  For example, garlic fumes turned bismuth on Rublev Silverpoint Ground (but no other ground) an orangey color, whereas onion fumes did not.   With so many  variables, results are hard to summarize. 

 

- All environments sped up tarnishing to varying degrees.  Panel 4 (directly over Liver of Sulphur) and Panel 7 (apple cider vinegar) tarnished fastest.

 

- All environments more or less degraded marks after 72 hours.  Panel 7 (apple cider vinegar) completely erased zinc after 48 hours, and erased bismuth, brass and copper on some grounds in 72 hours.  Direct exposure to Liver of Sulphur erased some metals in72 hours.  

 

            I thought a layer of tarnish protects the underlying metal from further corrosion.  If so, why do some metalpoint marks disappear after too much exposure to a tarnishing environment?   Is it because a metal mark is so thin there is only a degraded tarnish layer, which falls apart?  Or is the ground (and hence it's ability to hold onto metal particles) being degraded? Or both?  What literally happens to metal marks that vanish? I realize these are complicated questions that perhaps can't be answered; I'm just looking to better understand metals, tarnishing, corrosion.   

 

- Some grounds held onto to marks better (Artboards Gesso, Gouache, Rublev Silverpoint Ground, Rublev Tempera Ground).  Pelikan casein lost the most marks.  

 

- Some metals seemed more vulnerable to corrosion and disappearing; Zinc and 24K gold in particular.

 

- As Tom and Brian have already noted, degree of tarnishing and coloration of a metal varied (sometimes greatly) depending on ground.  One example: Artboards Gesso and Rublev Silverpoint Grounds visibly brought out blue in zinc, other grounds did not. There were many such  diferences among the various grounds and metals.  

 

            Tom mentioned humidity speeds up tarnishing.  Why is this so?  More exposure to oxygen (which, from what I understand, is the primary agent of tarnishing)? 

 

            Regarding adding egg yolk (sulphur) to liquid prep to increase tarnishing – Tom, do you mean mix yolk directly into a ground?  Are there considerations to adding egg yolk to various binders (animal glue, casein, gum arabic, synthetic polymers)?

 

Brian, I know MITRA isn't a promotional site, so please edit if it's not appropriate to mention that Tom Mazzullo and Susan Schwalb's have a newly published metalpoint book. I'm looking forward to reading it, which hopefully will make a dent in my many questions.  Thanks for everyone's input and help.

 

Koo

​​Great - thanks you two, all of that is very helpful.  And I look forward to exploring Don Jusko's site, which I hadn't heard of; as a fellow independent empirical reseracher, I too appreciate those labors of love!

Koo

​Thank you very much for all these answers Gillian!

The instrument i am using is a very basic digital Hygrometer/Thermometer which shows relative humidity and room temperature... It was relatively cheap and bought in a local store, but some people that have used it said that is pretty much accurate... I sure hope it is...

I will try to put these pans with water, and see what happens.. If there is nothing changing, i will maybe then buy humidifier, and i will try to set it rigth, so it doesn't bring up the humidity too fast... If that doesn't work, then i really don't know what to do more...  The room is smaller, so the dehumidifier maybe will be too much... And, in this specific situation, the "problem"  is, i have paintings all around my appartment and my studio...  :) :)

Would there be any difference if the works on paper are put under glass and framed soon after being finished...? 

I understand that every information we,artists  get from professional conservators, restorators, chemists, other artists is put there with greatest and purest intentions... It is maybe us, who started worrying too much. Or maybe some of us... :) 

I am very grateful for every information i've got in past years.  So, thank you once more! :) 

​Thank you very much Gillian!

I wanted to ask if the humidity drops to 12-22 % during the winter times, what can actually happen to paintings and drawings? 

And also i am interested in your opinion,how did so many artworks from past times survived in such bad environmental conditions...? When i read about certain ,so to say, "destinies" of some artworks it really gets me thinking about it...  It's pretty much the same story about painting techiques, grounds and so on... The more i read and look at the paintings in the museums, the more i come to these thoughts... There are many artworks done on prepared cardboards (some paintings from John Atkinson Grimshaw), recently i saw some small paintings from Franz Von Stuck in Belvedere, and many more, and they look amazing... Done on basically risky ground such as cardboard, in studios and houses where people maybe had their homes heated with woods and fireplaces, many painted effects done with almost totally dismissing "fat over lean" rule and not to mention their stories, where were these paintings, how were they kept, wars these artworks had survived, and they still managed to look good... I know that professional conservators and restorators did their job, but still these are pretty old paintings... 

Few years ago i got myself thinking that all the knowledge about best painting technique, medium, environment, storage actually made many artists fearful and not so free as they should be while creating art, at some times, myself included...

I am sorry, maybe i went off from the subject we are talking here, but i thought it is ok to share it, and ask...

If there is real danger for paintings and drawings of humidity being 12-22% , please tell me should i then buy the regular humidifier that releases steam in the room? I was, and indeed still am, very afraid to put it in studio with all my most important artworks... Or is there some alternative? 

Thank you, and sorry if i wrote too much. :)

All the best!


Marko Karadjinovic 

  

​Thank you both. That is helpful and informative. Does the very slow drying speed of Carbon Blacks and pigments like Titanium White correspond to a softer/weaker paint film then?

Do you know if paintings by Carvaggio or his followers with large areas of black have more 'checking' or cracking?

It sounds like it would be wiser to stick to Mars Black.

​Thank you Sarah! I very glad and relieved to hear that... I just hope that maybe you or someone else knows is this LeFranc Burgeois Acrylic Fluid Matte Medium water based? I think it is, but if anyone knows for sure, please share this info, i would be very grateful... I hope to get answer from LeFranc Burgeois about this soon, but with them, it can take up to few weeks... 

Thank you all! 


Marko Karadjinovic

​Above it was stated " I do not recommend plywood panels for traditional gesso, chalk glue grounds, or acrylic dispersion grounds without some sort of interleaf, preferably of fabric. For 25 years I have seen the surface of panels created by very good craftspeople exhibit checking along the grain with all of these grounds"  Do plywood panels fare better with an oil ground? 

​Matthew, thank you! I have read under Solubility(ies) section , that  Liquitex Gloss Medium/Varnish is miscible with water, so i guess that is water based? About LeFranc Burgeois Fluid Medium i could not find a lot product info, just the main ones. Here are some of them:  Additive for acrylic paint / The fluid mediums make it possible to fluidify the paint while preserving a strong presence of resin, which distinguishes them from dilution with water . Can be mixed with acrylic colors in all proportions.   

The painting is dry for 3 days now, and it look totally fine... There no cracks, no faded parts of painting, no bubbles, nothing... It looks, totally normal and fine. 

I hope that someone with speciallity in acrylics will also have their say about this subject...

Thank you once more

​I should have clarified that I was asking thinning Regalrez to make "retouch varnish" for the purpose of being used as a temprorary final varnsish.  If I undrstand your response, applying retouch to a touch dry painting is too soon and it is better to wait until teh dry through point (as verified by a fingernai test) - typically 1 or 3 months in my experience.   

​Just to close the loop on this. Jessica had to replace the canvas:

http://forum.drawmixpaint.com/discussion/9814/what-is-this#latest

Someone else had a similar problem and suggested that it was due to a fault with the manufactorers gesso on the canvas.


​Via the WAAC Newsletter (Volume 20, No. 1):

"Linseed stand oils contain higher levels of free fatty acids because of thermally induced triglyceride cleavage. Koller and Burmester deduced that a stand oil had been used in the extensively efflorescing areas on a painting by Serge Poliakoff because of the presence of the high amount of free fatty acids and isomerized linoleic acids found in the paint film." 

(Koller, J., Burmester, A. Cleaning, Retouching and Coatings, Technology and Practice for Easel Paintings and Polychrome Sculpture, Preprints of the Contributions to the Brussels Congress, 3-7 Sept. 1990, Int. Inst. for Con., London, 1990, pp. 138-143.)

And yeah--I'm wary of Geneva paints because of the clove oil, too. 

Could it be efflorescence? Geneva paints contain a ton of stand oil.

-Ben

Thanks! I did download and read all the materials from your Resources section, but had received some conflicting information from other ​parties (artists and manufacturers) about the usefulness of sealing the panel, and what materials to use. Your answer makes clear sense. As a happy owner of Mark David Gottshegen's books, I'm glad you're carrying on his mission.

​Can I assume that a painting done with water miscible paint is more sensitive to water than one done with linseed? (Or poppy, walnut, safflower etc?)

Also, could this make it more hygroscopic and therefore more susceptible to cracking caused by changes atmospheric moisture?

​Thanks for the advice! I totally understand not wanting to encourage amateur repair work, but my cousin's directive to me was "See what you can do, or just toss them," so a professional repair was off the table. They are both small, abstract pieces, and I don't think they were a large time investment for her. All the same, they are nice, and I wanted to try to salvage them, if possible. 

I'll try using mineral spirits. If there is any change in surface gloss, I'll seal and varnish the paintings, as per Golden's typical recommendation. (Actually, I should probably do that anyway). And I'll pass on your recommendation about the silicone release paper, Briane--thanks!  








I'm not sure why but I presumed Mark's book (revised and expanded) was released after the Mecklenburg paper, but if my research is correct, it was published 6 years prior.​

Cheers.
Ron Francis.

Oh, I thought Mark was well aware of the problems with zinc.
That would expain the ommision.
Is my memory faulty, or was there much talk about zinc causing paint to become brittle at AMIEN before he died?

Personally, I like the encylopedic nature of the Mayer book and find the index fairly easy to negotiate.

I totally agree with what you said about trong opinions.
I found them in both books, but I think it may be more difficult to discern opinion from fact in the Mayer book.

Thanks Brian.

Ron Francis.

​My apologies for misspelling 'Gottsegen'.

I think Brian's assessment of Mayer's book is accurate, however I can't agree with Gotsegen's.
Compared to Mayer's book, Gotsegen's is very light on material. I borrowed it from a library and read through it very quickly. Far too quickly.
It was too long ago to remember details, but I remember thinking there were unquantified opinions, some contradictions and some important ommissions.
(The problems with zinc being one of them.)
However, even though I found it simple, it is a sound book and I can recommend it.​

I would love a revised and corrected version of Mayer's book.
I have the 5th edition, the latest, which was revised after Mayer's death, but even so, there is a considerable amount of very questionable information in it.

If I were to only have one book, it would be Mayer's, but in conjunction with the latest information from sources such as MITRA, "Painting Best Practices" facebook group and "Traditional Oil Painting" facebook group.

Ron Francis.

Thank you Kristin, much appreciated.
I hadn't thought about abrasion and polishing, which I didn't think would occur with a kneadable eraser unless it was rubbed against the surface rather than pressed.

I hope it's OK to post links to a couple of these PDFs at the "Pain​ting Best Practices" facebook group?

​Hi Brian,

Awesome, thank you for the speedy response!  Relieved to hear that the paper can be remedied.  Question, does it need to be covered with a glass or can I use a piece of ACM panel or a plexiglass or something else solid?  I do not have a large sheet of glass on hand that size so im wondering If i can use an alternative of something that I do have.    

Thanks,

Chris 

​Sorry, that's me above ^ User Comment by Tom Mazzullo

Hi Koo, I thought I might try to answer one of your questions:​

4. I want enough tooth in a ground to maximize the potential for dark lines, and to create a good bond between metal and ground.  On the other hand I want a smooth surface so my nib doesn't skip or leave dark flecks when drawn across areas with more texture. Any thoughts on how best to achieve these contradictory aims?

I have found that by adding thin coats of ground, and sanding between layers, even on paper, then sanding the final layer with 800-grit sandpaper, a wider range of values with silver is possible. As stated above, the adhesion of marks is purely physical, there's no chemical bond, so exposing the metal to as much ground as possible with each stroke is essential, because the ground "grabs" metal off the stylus. Some grounds are soft, and will chip, others are too granular and will cause irregular gradations, so as Margaret Matthews Berenson suggests, experimentation is essential. As others suggest, play around with alloys. I use dead soft sterling 92.5/7.5 and it gives me the best results. One other note, if one is looking for the value range of graphite with a metal point, one will always fall short. Graphite is super soft compared to any metal at all.

You're looking for the balance between granularity, hardness, sandability, and smoothness. As I've often suggested, I think casein meets the requirements, as it dries fairly hard but not as hard as gesso, acrylic gesso or acrylic paint, and dries permanent unlike gouache (which has the best abrasive qualities in my opinion). It also contains no chalk, bone ash or other abrasives, so the surface is regular and smooth. As noted in an answer to a later post on this site by Brian, however, casein has some potentially reactive off-gassing and I've mentioned that commercial casein contains linseed oil as a preservative so surfaces prepared with casein need to cure for a week or more to become as hard and inert as possible. For years I used Plaka, which is now only available in small containers, but have since moved to Shiva, which is quite soft and more gouache-like. There is also Wrights of Lymm casein, which is not heavily pigmented, but has a lovely velvety surface much like Plaka. I sometimes combine the two. In the book Susan and I have just published, I also give a recipe for a hide-glue and pure zinc oxide ground that has excellent hardness and abrasive qualities - and tinkering with the recipe could yield exactly the results you want. The only drawback in my opinon of hide-glue preps is they are not permanent.

​Thanks for the link Kristin.

I think my main concerns would be the vegetable oil, mineral oil and antioxidents, but as Mathew pointed out, It would have to be an insignificant amount of oil otherwise it should show up when used on paper.
Of course the antixidants mixing with the paints wouldn't be great either if there was enough of it.

Hopefully your collegues will respond with something less speculative.

Ron Francis.

​Bismuth is an excellent alternative to lead; it shares many of the same attributes in terms of softness, color of mark and eraseability, and works, like lead, on unprepared paper surfaces as well. Bismuth is non-toxic however. It's only drawback is a bismuth rod is quite brittle - drop it and it will break, and it shatters when you're trying to point it to a fine point. I have a rod that sharpens in a wall pencil sharpener, then I use a mill bastard file and sandpaper to bring it to a fine point.

​Brian, I agree - casein has always for me hastened tarnish over more inert binders like RSG. Some commercial caseins also have a lot of linseed oil as a preservative which necessitates a long cure time; I wonder if the off-gassing is mitigated by open-air curing of a week or more before use. One would need some gnarly equipment to measure things like that, would be fun to know.

Hi Koo,

Thanks for pointing me to this forum. I've done a lot of the tests you're involved with, and can answer some of your questions.

Test Panel 1: Surprisingly, gold is a soft metal but draws light, and silver draws darker. Pewter makes a nice dark mark, as will bismuth. (a) Generally the thicker the ground the darker the mark; with that said, some aqueous grounds like RSG and Gouache will chip if there are too many coats. I've found a sweet spot with three coats of well-cured casein, sanded with 800-grit to increase smoothness. (b) By age do you mean tarnish? Materials in the ground can also affect the cast of metals, such as gold appearing more amber on zinc white than on titanium. Other than tarnish, there is the chance that metals will react with the groud - magnesium for instance utterly disappeared from Golden Silverpoint Drawing ground; it just evaporated. By comparison, magnesium remained visible, but lightened substantially when applied to white casein. Other than that, the ground and paper constituents can affect tarnish both in degree and rapidity. Sulfite papers can hasten tarnish, as can other substrates, like TerraSkin.

Test Panel 2: Also try different shaped points! Fine, blunt, etc. If you know a metalsmith order a bismuth ingot and have it cast into a rod. It has a low melting point. Zinc is available as wire from Amazon (or call me, I can share).

Test Panel 3: Add egg yolk to your liquid prep, lots of sulfur in egg. Also: humidity increases tarnish. Watch out for Liver of Sulfur - it can raise the pH of paper and make it yellow.

Test Panel 4: All good fillers, but I have found, over the years, that a pure Zinc Oxide and binder ground works best; no fillers needed. I think abrasives like bone ash benefit from a half hour of mulling in the mortar and pestle; they can be uneven in their particulate makeup.


Tom Mazzullo

​Thank you Brian and Matthew for your answers. 

The paper is 250 gr , it is relatively thick and acid free. 

Since i didn't use excessive amounts of water, just enough to do these needed effects i actually haven't noticed much difference from some smaller paintings done on watercolor paper.

The colors were pretty much the same, the paper didn't buckle at all, it is straight as it was at the beginning.  And when it was all dry i have touched the surface and there is no color powder at all .

These works look really fine, but i was concerned about it's longevity .

So i guess everything is fine...

Thanks once more!

I found another similar enquiry that provides clarifiation. The product in question is not totally non-absorbant but has greatly reduced absorbancy. https://www.artcons.udel.edu/mitra/forums/question?QID=484   

​p.s

My apologies for the bad formatting; I pasted from a text editor and the forum software doesn't seem to allow editing.

Also, the item about Frank van Hemert starts at around 20:00.

​I’m wondering if this is the beginning of what is called phase separation. It usually happens when oil paint ground in semi-drying oils like safflower and sunflower oil (Winton titanium white is ground in safflower oil) is applied in thick layers (metal soaps seem to be an important contributing factor too).The actual alchemy of what causes this is beyond my pay grade but at some point orange-brown oily exudation (likely binder that has not fully oxidized) starts to break trough the paint layer (and even appears in on the back of the canvas).You can read the study by Dr Jaap Boon that was done as part of a law suit (against Schmincke by Dutch artists Frank van Hemert) here:https://www.jaap-enterprise.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Boon-Hoogland-ICOP.pdfA Dutch news item with better visuals can been seen here:https://drive.google.com/open?id=1I0ZB4irtoPZ9KxADJiCRNm3Efph3dh52

​Thank you Koo, as always for your timely and informative answers.  Happily I work in a very dry and stable studio - the only time I have encountered mould (or bloom) was when I was working in a damp stable/studio a few years back and this obviously got into the panels somehow.  Happily, the client liked the effect!  Still, it is reassuring to know that there is no definite reason NOT to frame within 2-3 weeks of completing an ET painting.  Do you, by any chance, ever put an advice note on the back of your paintings advising storage in stable conditions?  ie - avoiding putting paintings on exterior walls or next to kitchens/humid environments?  Zarina

​One more thing to note – Dr. Joyce Stoner, who's spent many years conserving egg tempera paintings (specifically Andrew Wyeth's), suspects there may be a link between humidity and fatty acid efflorescence.  FAM occrus more often in Wyeth's egg temperas that traveled between his Maine and Pennsylvania studios; so perhaps changes in humidity encourage excess binder to effloresce.  It's not definitive by any means - but what is certain is that too much moisture and/or dramatic changes in a painting's moisture content aren't good! 

I am very glad to hear that this is quite sound. To respond to what Scott has said, when I apply my imprimatura over the Golden Acrylic Gesso Ground, I do so with a glaze that is fairly well pigmented (certainly no more than 25% Solvent Free Fluid) and I apply it with a cloth, pulling the glaze as far as it will go. There is barely any paint or medium on there – just enough to make the upcoming very lean paint flow a little less dryly. I scrub it on too, pushing and pulling it as far as it will go. The paint surface ends up being entirely matte. Is this lean enough if I paint this way,  or do I need to dilute the Solvent Free Fluid still with the Gamsol?

 

Also, I read in MITRA's Resources Link, under Adhesives and Sizing, that PVA in general is very slightly susceptible to strikethrough.  How does Gamblin's PVA perform in this regard if I coat my canvas with it twice, as stated – once before stretching, and once after - and then hand rub the sized canvas thinly with 1:3 water diluted Golden Acrylic Gesso five times?  Could I still get strikethrough?

 

Thanks! I am very intent of getting a system that works.

Kathy Marlene Bailey

Hi Zarina,

 

I'm not a trained conservator and can't speak to the technical definition of efflorescence; but, as an experienced tempera painter, I can explain the common usage of the word as applied to egg tempera.  It refers to two distinct issues:  

 

1.  One is when paint has too much binder (egg yolk) in it; as the paint polymerizes the excess fats get expelled, migrate to the surface, and create a whitish haze or "bloom" on a painting.   This is also known as fatty acid migration (I call it FAM).   I've seen FAM on a few students' works as soon as a couple of months after a painting is complete, but FAM also can happen many years afterwards.  So, given the variable and very long-term time frame in which FAM can occur, I don't believe if or when you glaze an egg tempera is relevant to this type of "efflorescence".

 

By the way, if you ever do find FAM on a painting, the whitish fuzz is not harmful but can be unsightly.  It's easily remedied, just gently brush or wipe it away.  There is some evidence that varnishing suppresses FAM, but I don't think this is definitive. 

 

2.  The second way I've seen "efflorescence" applied to egg tempera is to refer to mold (and sometimes people confuse FAM with mold, or vice versa).   For mold you need spores (which are everywhere), oxygen and water.   The water content in fresh egg tempera paint evaporates out quickly; depending on drying conditions, the paint reaches more or less equilibrium with the relative humidity of the environment it's in within a few days (or sooner, nearly immediately, in very low RH). 

 

The potential problem is that egg temperas are (a) often on wood-based supports and traditional gesso grounds, both of which are hygroscopic (water loving); and (b) have a very high PVC (pigment volume concentrate), and high PVC creates porous surfaces more open to moisture – these things mean egg temperas are prone to capture and hold onto moisture, which means they are more susceptible to mold, especially under high RH.  The half dozen times I've heard from students about a mold problem, it was after a long, rainy stretch of weather.  Because the culprit is the inherent water loving nature of an egg tempera painting- not how long it's been allowed to cure or polymerize - preventing mold is not dependent on when you frame (since even a well cured egg tempera can mold under high RH).   


To minimize mold it's important to keep a painting in a stable environment (I believe 45-60 RH is a good range - I'm sure Brian and Kristin know this number); and coat all sides and back of a panel with a "barrier" paint (I use an alkyd, solvent-based house paint).  This last step is often neglected but can make a big difference to how much moisture enters into a painting; and at least you can control this option, whereas you can't necessarily control the environment in which a painting is kept.  

 

The longer egg tempera paint has polymerized, the more durable it is – so for the first few months extra care should be taken with handling (such as laying a frame against its surface).  But I would say as long as all surfaces feel dry, and the RH isn't too high, you can frame a tempera within a few days of completing it.


Of course I'd love to get input from a trained conservator too.  


Koo

​Thank you very much! 

​Thank you very much Kristin, Brian and Matthew for you answers!  I was reading these articles about fixatives, varnishes and i think i need to read a lot more to find a solution for protecting mixed media works on paper. I guess i will need a fixative, or varnish that works fine with ink, gouache on one paper, watercolor,gouache and graphite on top, also on one paper. I have posted these images, since they look amazing after all those years, and if anyone knows a bit more about how these works were done and protected, i am more than happy to hear it. 

So if i understood well, in terms of mixing ink and gouache , or mixing ink , watercolor and gouache it is ok to use any ink (Indian Ink. maybe W&N Black india ink) , it is important just that upcomming layers of gouache or watercolor will not lift the previously drawn/painted ink? 

I am trying to achieve totally different effect with mixing watercolor and gouache, so the orthodox approach is fammiliar to me , but not needed in this case.  Since the gouache is basically opaque watercolor, i guess then that mixing it will mean just switching to another technique. For example, i can paint first layers with watercolor (like underpainting), then on top of that  continue painting with gouache , and if needed, i could do a subtle glazes with watercolor over gouache?

As for these artworks that artists saved the drawing beneath , watercolor, gouache i guess i will have to read more and wait for someone to maybe write here , what is the best fixative maybe to use to preserve drawing done with pencil/black chalk, and that is also ok to paint over that fixative/varnish with watercolor or gouache, or ink? 

And also if someone knows what the artist  Georgius Jacobus Johannes van Os had used as fixative/varnish to protect the graphite, chalk on top of this watercolor/gouache still life painting, or maybe some other artist that used similar mixed media technique, i am more than happy to hear it. 


Thank you all once more!


Marko Karadjinovic

Hi, Thanks so much.

I am afraid I cannot use a spray gun, It should be done by brush or roller. It is a canteen, I think they won't be happy if I am gonna use a spray gun.

I guess​ I'll use a gloss varnish first, to even out the gloss (there are quite some differences in the surface), then do a second semi-gloss layer.

We'll work with 3 people. Perhaps we all start at the top, taking 1/3-rd of the width, then working our way to the bottom.

Do you have any idea about how much time we would have before the varnish starts to dry? I guess we will be working with room temperature.

I am re-reading my post of February 19, 2018, and all the responses below it. As you know, I am hoping to work without toxins throughout my processes. I am seeking to know: can I create a stable painting without them? After laying out my specific questions for you to consider, I will describe my proposed modified approach, based on the answers you have given thus far.

 

Specific Questions:

 

Although lead white would add strength to the canvas, will the combination of my various processes create a more than adequate archival stability for my paintings over the centuries?

 

Specifically,

 

Can the rigid support (cradled panel) and the alkyd nature of my titanium white compensate for lead white usage in the ground and throughout my painting?

 

Can a traditional wet imprimatura compensate for the greater absorption of Golden Acrylic Gesso Ground? (I hope so - it seems to do a perfect job of it – performing for the artist during the process just as well as chalk gesso does – with perfect absorption level for the richer glaze layer and excellent surface flow for the subsequent lean paint).

 

Proposed Process:

 

  1. Size a 16 oz. tightly woven raw canvas one side on the topside while fabric is flat on table. I prefer Gamblin PVA, for reasons already stated in a previous reply.  Snap the fabric when wet to work out any wrinkles. Let dry a day.
  2. Evenly stretch canvas over a birch cradled panel, with the weft direction being vertical for maximum long-term support. Use non-rusting strong thumbtacks for easy potential conservation adjustments if ever required.
  3. Rewet the stretched canvas after stretching with PVA if there are still any wrinkles to facilitate the pullout of the fabric. Let sit a day.
  4. Hand rub and sand five coats of Golden Acrylic Gesso Ground, slightly diluted for smooth application.
  5. Allow to cure over several days.
  6. With Gamblin Solvent Free Fluid, dilute Gamblin FastMatte Alkyd Safflower Oil Foundation paint (mostly Burnt Sienna) no more than 25%. Rub on a high paint spread imprimatura-priming glaze with a cloth.
  7. Into the wet glaze, drop an undiluted foundational layer (grisaille) using Gamblin FastMatte Titanium White and Burnt Sienna and Ultramarine Blue (mixed to the same colour as Burnt Umber). Let dry several days.
  8. With virtually undiluted Gamblin FastMatte paints, add another foundational layer (Velatura). Let dry several days.
  9. Add several layers, several days apart, each starting with a glaze or scumble of the same paints diluted with no more than 25% Gamblin Solvent Free Fluid, with high paint spread. Then modify the glaze with additions of slightly diluted paint, or in white areas, undiluted paint.  Palette: Gamblin FastMatte Alkyd Safflower Oil Paints:
  • Titanium White
  • Burnt Sienna (in foundations)
  • Quinacridone Red
  • Hansa Yellow (in foundations)
  • Ultramarine Blue
  • Phthalo Blue
  • Red Transparent Earth (in glazing applications)Rembrandt Oil Paints
  • Transparent Yellow (in glazing applications)

 

 

I am looking forward to your answers. Thanks so much for all you do and for your clarifications here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am re-reading my post, and all the responses below it. As you know, I am hoping to work without toxins throughout my processes. I am seeking to know: can I create a stable painting without them? After laying out my specific questions for you to consider, I will describe my proposed modified approach, based on the answers you have given thus far.

 

Specific Questions:

 

Although lead white would add strength to the canvas, will  the combination of my various processes create a more than adequate archival stability for my paintings over the centuries?

 

Can the rigid support (cradled panel) compensate for lead white usage in the ground and throughout my painting?

 

Can a traditional wet premature compensate for the greater absorption of Golden Acrylic Gesso Ground? (It seems to do a perfect job of it – performing during the process exactly like chalk gesso does – with perfect absorption level for the richer glaze layer and excellent surface flow for the subsequent lean paint).

 

Proposed Process:

 

  1. Size a 16 oz tightly woven raw canvas one side on the top side while fabric is flat on table .I prefer Gamblin PVA, for reasons already stated in a previous reply.  Snap the fabric when wet to work out any wrinkles. Let dry a day.
  2. Evenly stretch canvas over a birch cradled panel, with the weft direction being vertical.
  3. Rewet the stretched canvas with PVA if there are still any wrinkles to facilitate the pullout of the fabric. Let sit a day.
  4. Hand rub and sand five coats of Golden Acrylic Gesso Ground.
  5. Allow to cure over several days.
  6. With a 25% diluted Gamblin FastMatte Alkyd Safflower Oil Foundation paint, rub on a high paint spread imprimatura-priming glaze with a cloth.
  7. Into the wet glaze, drop an undiluted foundational layer (grisaille) using Gamblin FastMatte Titanium White and Burnt Sienna and Ultramarine Blue (mixed to the same colour as Burnt Umber). Let dry several days.
  8. With undiluted Gamblin FastMatte paints, add another foundational layer (Velatura). Let dry several days.
  9. Add several layers, several days apart, each starting with a roughly 25% diluted glaze or scumble of the same paints, with high paint spread, the glaze subsequently modified with additions of slightly diluted paint, or in white areas, undiluted paint.

 

I am looking forward to your answers. Thanks so much for your clarifications.

 

Kathy Marlene Bailey

​I have very limited experience with a casein-based, commercially produced fixative, SpectraFix "Degas" Fixative.  It contains casein, denatured grain alcohol and water.  I tried it several years ago as an isolator on egg tempera and it worked pretty well, haven't used it since.  

I'm in a similar situation as this questioner in that I would like the possilbity of framing without glass some of my mixed media, metalpoint drawings (made from different metal nibs, a little egg tempera for coloring, on hardboard panels).  I too have contemplated something along the lines of first applying B-72, then finishing with wax (to mitigate the "plastic" appearance).  I understand there are drawbacks, but would love to have the drawings not encased behind glass.   

Koo Schadler

​Thank you very much! 

​Thank you Brian. That is interesting.

​Sarah,  

   Thank you for taking the time to provide such a thorough response. I was expecting that you would be called upon. I would have contacted you directly but thought that this information might be of interest to others so I chose to post in a public forum.

         Regards,

                 George

​Ahh, thanks George. So there is nothing that can be added to make a paint more slippery (besides another drying oil like Walnut or Poppy)?

One option is to glue strips of wood to the back of the panel along the edges to creat a full cradle or even shorter pieces to act as risers.  A floater frame could then be attached from the rear by screws into the cradle or risers. There are floater frame mouldings on the retail market in 1 1/2 inche or  2 inches depth so the cradle/riser could be fairly thick.  This system is sometimes used as a way to frame 1/8 inch thick tempered hardboard panels in floater frames. 

      George   

​Thank you Kristin and Koo for the effort and all those answers! I am very gratefull for all the info i have got!  

This is the site where i have read about Vickreys acrylic technique. The site is called "underpaintings" , and it is about him and his acrylic technique. I think when  it gets to acrylic technique and painting stages, are actually his own words, where he describes the process and which paint brand, colors did he use. At the part where his acrylic color palette is described, it is written Vickrey's Egg Tempera Palette, but i assume it is so because above it was written that his egg tempera palette was almost the same as his acrylic palette. But , when we continue to read this, at get to the final version of this painting, the title is "Wings" by Robert Vickrey , size : 30 x 20 inches and technique : Acrylic 

This is the site with the topic "Robert Vickrey on Acrylic" :

https://underpaintings.com/technique-robert-vickrey-on-acrylic/


Kind regards to all and thank you once more! 

Marko Karadjinovic

​Thank you Matthew for looking.

​Thank you Matthew. So you don't think it's due to glycerin?

Is Poppy oil less viscious than Walnut oil? Does that have the same slippery feel too?

​Are there any appreciable differences between the two types of Stearates mentioned here?

BTW: The forum is not updating the last comment date/time, which is why I missed these replies.

Hi Marko,

 

I've been looking into your interesting question and finally have some information.  

 

Robert Vickrey had a very long-standing relationship with Tree's Place, a gallery in Orleans, MA (on Cape Cod), which is also where Vickrey lived. The gallery director at the time, Alison Collins (who has since left and started her own gallery, "Collin's Gallery", also on the Cape) worked with Vickrey for many years.  Tree's Place began representing my work in 2006, and Vickrey and I showed together before his death in 2011.  I asked Alison your question, and here is her reply:

 

"It could have been Liquitex because Cape Photo and Art sold Liquitex in Orleans….I don't know about conservators working on his acrylic or oils at this time. I've only heard of the egg tempera paintings needing attention for minor blooming...so humid in these parts! On a side note he would often paint in acrylic and oil typically when submitting paintings to the American Watercolor Society because works had to be submitted on paper."

 

Alison said she'll contact Scott, Vickrey's son, to see if he knows more.  She also suggested I contact William Meek at Harmon Meek Gallery in Naples, FL (where Vickrey spent winters); he and Meek worked together for a very long time and were close; Meeks owns many of his paintings and has been responsible for coordinating museum shows of Vickrey's work.  I wrote Meek and got this reply:

 

"Vickrey seldom used acrylic as a substitute for egg tempera. During the mid 1980's he painted a series of works of NYC windows and Staten Island Ferry window reflections. These were all done in a fast drying alkyd oil. We have an acrylic painting on resale now but I am not sure if he used any varnish over the paint surface."

 

Mr. Meeks suggested I contact Vickrey's conservator in Naples, Tom Wagner, which I did.  Tom is an independent conservator who mostly works on old master paintings but was friends with Vickrey and worked often on his paintings.  He's never seen any Vickrey acrylics, just egg tempera.  I asked him if Vickrey ever varnished his temperas and Tom said that, at Vickrey's request, he varnished all his egg temperas for him; Vickrey preferred the even finish a varnish imparted and the protection.  Tom said he uses a very dilute mix of damar, just one layer brushed on.  He continues to get occasional Vickrey paintings to work on, although not nearly as many as he used to as when Vickrey was alive, obviously.   The most common problem he sees is mildew which, if not removed, eats away at the egg tempera.   

 

I'll let you know if I learn anything more.

 

Koo Schadler

​Thank you Matthew for clarifying :)

​Thanks for your replies.  I take your point, George, about  needing to know ingredients for a more carefuly controlled Test Panel 4, so I'll use the Rublev Fluid Medium (VAE) as a base.  And I'll add barite to my list of additives. 

Brian, last year I had good success tarnishing a drawing by laying the panel face down over a tray of liver of sulphur - it seemed to work very well, very quickly.  So I'm going to repeat the experiment, using a slightly more contained set up, and then do the same with garlic and onions.   

My testing is far from technically refined - I don't have training how to do so, my time is limited (I'm supposed to be painting, after all!), and I rarely have enough time to do repeat trials - so results are far from conclusive.  Nonetheless, it's fun and instructive to play and better understand these old and/or less common mediums. 

Pewter (mostly tin and anitmony, I believe) draws beautifully, if you can find a rod (I lucked out with a pewtersmith friend). I've found bismuth, zinc and bronze points, and just ordered a lump of antimony too.  

Koo

​Thank you Kristin. Fantastic response!

​Thank you very much Sarah for your time and for helping me! 

​Thank you very much for your help Matthew! 

​Thank you so much for your help Brian! 

Thank you Matthew! I always use the retouch and final varnish from same company.  For example i used Schmincke Retouching Varnish in spray and this is one of information that is writen  for it:  

"  The dried varnish layer remains soluble in turpentine substitute 50019 over a long period. It is possible to overpaint it with oil colours or add a final varnish based on mineral spirit. "

The Retouch Varnish is based on mineral spirit.   

After that i applied final varnish, Schmincke  Universal Satin Varnish which is also based on mineral spirit. 

I guess everything is ok then, it is ok to put final varnish over retouch, and there is no need to remove the retouch before applying final one if they are on the same base (for example mineral spirits) ?   

​Thank you so much Brian for these answers and for your help! When i was using this medium that contained Venetian Turpentine/Balsam i had three separate bottles of medium. First one for underpainting  (1 part stand oil 1 part venetian turp. and 4 parts of rectified turpentine) second one ( 1 part stand o. 1 part venet. turp. and 3 parts of rectified turpentine) and final one (1 part of stand o. 1 part of venetian turp. and 2 parts of rectified turpentine), and thats is how i built up layers. Hope that was ok? I also did varnish these paintings, but after 2,3 months i put retouch varnish and then after year-year and a half a final one.    

So it is totally safe to put small amounts of white spirit to Liquin original?

Would it than be ok to make the medium with similar concept, just without venet. turpentine?

For example. first bottle (1 part stand oil + 3 parts of rectified turpentine) second (1 part of stand o.+ 2 parts of r. turpentine) and third ( 1 part of stand o. + 1 part of r. turpentine) 

I am always fascinated with Jan Van Eyck technique, and i was always curious about how did he paint is those layers, with what type of medium? 

Also there is one contemporary master, who also painted in layers. He is Zdzislaw Beksinski. I always wondered what type of medium did he use, since he said that he is very indecisive with where the painting will go, and he almost always deviated from the sketch. He painted over some parts, then did a lot of new details, then changed again something... 

Thank you!



​First of all, thank you Sarah for taking your time and for your help. I think that i will definitely varnish these paintings, because of the transport, and the safety. I think that i will be much calmer knowing that i protected them as much as i can.  It also seems resonable that it will be no problem to apply Talens varnish on top of Liquitex Gloss Medium/Varnish. Since people from Liquitex told me that this  can be used as a varnish, but is best when it is used as a medium and added to acrylics, and as a isolation coat. The only varnish that i can buy here from Liquitex is Satin Non Removable Varnish in spray, but i think it is better to apply a removable one? I want to ask, if i test this on one small piece of less importance than those that are really important, and apply one coat of Liquitex Gloss Medium/Varnish as isolation and then varnish it with R.Talens Amsterdam Varnish,  how long should i wait to see if it is ok? I mean if something is wrong, will it be shown in a few hours, days, weeks..?   Is the best way to put isolation coat in one layer and not too thick? And when isolation coat is applied how long should i wait before i put the varnish?  

Thank you once more.

​No problem. I will maybe test it on one small piece, but since these are my paintings for upcoming exhibition, i will wait for your answer. I will be waiting for your advice. Thank you for your help

Marko Karadjinovic 

​Thank you Sarah for this answer, it means a lot! I understand now what is the reason for applying isolation coat. And i would be really happy to use some of Goldens products, varnishes for example, but there arent any in my country. I even tried to buy Liquitex Soluvar Varnish and i also couldnt get that. I understood that is better to apply removable than non-removable varnish? So this one (R. Talens Amsterdam Acrylic Varnish) is the only one that i could get that is for acrylic and that is removable. I also have here Liquitex Gloss Medium/Varnish, since i heard it is good as isolation coat? So my question is, what do you think is the best way to varnish my paintings, considering circumstances? Is it ok to mix these two products?  To put Liquitex Gloss Medium/Varnish as isolation and then to put R.Talens Amsterdam Varnish, or should i just go with Varnish directly? Thank you   


Marko Karadjinovic  

​Thanks Brian!

I don't frame my work, so I don't have to worry about that. How long does varnish typically take to dry fully? I use GamVar

PS. I believe sun thickened oil was widely used ​in the Renaissance, so if there was a problem with it, I would expect it may be showing up in the conservation area.

Then again, I;m not sure how anyone could tell sun thickened oil was used unless it was documented by the artist.

Thanks again, much appreciated.

Thanks Brian, that's pretty much what I expected.
So as I see it, the take away summary would be, sun thickened oil should have lost some of it's adhesive properties in theory, but this would likely be insignificant in practice.
Especially considering that the oil, as a medium, should be only a small percentage of the paint film.

Ron Francis

​Hi Andrew,

Thanks for chiming in. I'm hoping you'll be able to tell us how tubed egg tempera paints don't end up smelling like, well, rotten eggs.  

My understanding is that it's a Sennelier glazing medium that was supposedly discontinued - but I don't know for sure, I'm working with third hand information so I may not have a clear understanding.  If you could provide a comprehensive list of all Sennelier egg tempera related products - what they contain (to the extent you can say ingredients), what they're intended for -  I would be interested.

Thanks,

Koo

​Hi Koo,

These are some fantastic notes and questions. I am the Director of Education for Savoir-Faire, the exclusive importer of Sennelier (and a few other brands) in the US. I have requested additional details from Sennelier to address some specifics.

Regarding the note that Sennelier has discontinued the Sennelier Egg Tempera Medium, this must be a miscomunication from somewhere, as we still have, and readily available within the US, the Sennelier Egg Tempera Mediums (there are 2 different ones in addition to the Binding Medium). If you, or your friend would like to reach out to me directly, I am happy to assist in tracking this down for you. Please e-mail custsvc@savoirfaire.com to be directed to me.

You are correct that Sennelier Egg Tempera is an Egg/Oil Emulsion, and has been since its formulation in 1895. Beyond that I do not have the specific technical details needed to dive in, but am hoping to be able to update this post with more information very soon.

Thank you,

Andrew Cook

Director of Education

Savoir-Faire

www.savoirfaire.com

​Thank you Brian.

Yellowing aside, is there anything inherently wrong with having a layer of Alkyd sitting on top of the paint? Can this cause damage later on to the painting in any way? I don't have much knowledge or experience with alkyd resins like Liquin or Galkyd yet, so I want to make sure I'm using it correctly. 

There is a type of water-soluble encaustic paint that is a simple heated emulsion of wax and soap. A Spanish company, Cuni encaustics, has published quite a bit about this paint, including their general formula and lab tests comparing it to Fayum paintings (and they sell a line of paints and medium). It doesn't seem to have many of the problems associated with saponified wax.  The medium can be made in a double boiler quite easily (with awareness that wax is flammable, so use caution). It's a mix of shaved beeswax, potassium-hydroxide liquid soap, and water, heated while stirring until the wax melts and emulsifies with the soap into a creamy medium.  The soap is basically castile soap; you can try out the recipe with Dr. Bronner's unscented soap with good results, though I'd recommend looking for 100% castile soap if you like the medium. Try a 1:1:1 recipe (by weight) as a starting point. It makes a wonderful painting medium that is fully water soluble, but of course it is relatively new so somewhat experimental. It can be colored with dry pigments, pigment dispersions, or even watercolor paint. 

​Wow thanks for all of your reponses. It was Dr Kallir who forwarded me to Srathmore and Strathmore who forwarded me to Mohawk. Perhaps I shall reach back out to her but already these comments seem more promising . Please do let me know of any updates, I have been researching this project for months and months and have not found anything concrete as of yet.

​Hi Brian,

My friend uses the Lascaux varnish spray (which I belive is B72) over her temperas and is pleased with the result.  I've made B72 from scratch and also like it (although I have yet to arrive at an ideal ratio of pellets to solvent or get proficient at hand application).  It's a good solution as an isolator.

I suspect you might have more success in getting an answer from Sennelier, so I appreciate you asking how they produce tubed egg temperas.  I've wondered about this for a long time and am all ears.

Apologies in advance if I use "gesso" to describe an acrylic dispersion (I was vigorously taken to task for this more than once by Mark Gottsegen on AMIEN).  I'm aware of how the term was appropriated, and sympathetic to how it muddies the water of "true" versus acrylic gesso - but at this point I feel that ship has sailed, there is no going back, and I've succumbed to common usage. Sigh.

Thanks as always,


Koo 

​Hi Brian,

I'm surprised to hear that glair (water-based) was used over oil, a curiosity how they got it to behave and adhere.   Thanks for the book reference, I hope to read it at some point (although at $345 it is currently relegated to my wish list).

In "A Conversation on Painting Techniques, Alfio del Serra, The Burlington Magazine" the author mentions that, over time, egg white becomes very grey.  I've also read it can become cloudy, brittle, difficult to remove. Is all that accurate?  Would you say that, although glair was used in the past as an isolator, at this point, given other options (like B72) it's not a good choice?

Thanks as always for your insights - I'm very appreciative that MITRA exists and of the work that goes into it.


Koo

My experience is that isolating the very porous, high PVC surface of egg tempera greatly facilitates the application of oil, oil glazes and varnishes.  I understand it is a complicated topic in that isolators bind with the underlying tempera layers and are not readily (if at all) removable.  However without an isolator, oil glazes sink in (sometimes terribly so) and can be very slow to dry; and/or varnishes sink in, bind with the tempera and become virtually unremovable.  

 

In other words, I have yet to find a way around the challenges posed by layering additional materials on top of absorbent, porous egg tempera - except, of course, not to add anything on top.  But that either defeats an artist's intent and/or leaves a tempera painting more vulnerable (because it is unvarnished).  

 

All this came up because I'm conversing with a painter from England and – well, it's a complicated topic, so I think I'll create a separate post for it and keep this post focused on the issue of isolators.

 

Koo

​Thank you Richard for your thorough replies. I said thixotropic but I should have said thickening. I was thinking of platy or needle-like filler/pigment particles. I am under the impression that they add strength to oil and latex paint films and that they might also lend strength to encaustic films. I thought that I might maintain a high pigment load and also make the paint transparent. But it seems, as you say about silica, that fillers are more transparent in oil than in beeswax. 

I do think that encaustic brings out the beauty of transparent pigments like your Indian yellow. Encaustic brings out the beauty of colors that tend to yellow in oil, like Egyptian blue and azurite, Encaustic also brings out the beauty of some transparent Earth colors like catlinite and siderite. This is why I am asking these questions, and I do appreciate your generosity in sharing your time and knowledge. I understand better the reason for dammar in Encaustic.


BTW 25% Canada balsam melted with 75% carnauba gave off overpowering fumes, was highly flammable, hard as a rock, and flaked easily off of a RSG/chalk ground, as people more experienced than me would have predicted :)

All great input, thanks everyone.  I think the pewter might be a good alternative to lead - about as soft a metal as lead without the toxicity.  I'll give it a try and let all you know how it works.   ​

​PS  -  I have a friend who is a pewter smith, so I'm going to get a piece from him and try pewter point. Have you ever seen pewter used before?  Koo

​Hi Brian

I'm ambivalent about using the lead point too much due to its toxicity, but wanted to at least include it in a metalpoint workshop I'm developing.  It will one of 15 different metal tips I'll work with and will report back if I figure out anything of note.

Koo


Sorry, oil painting PAPER. I have read through a few forums on your site and it seems it won't be possible. One mentioned a speciality Golden MSA product but that will unlikely be available in Australia. I will paint the image I wished to collage :) Thanks

​Richard, thanks very much for your reply. I found the information about the geometrical hardening when adding carnauba especially interesting. I have also noticed some pigments harden the wax, and a thin application at close to ideal pigment load wouldn't show yellowing. The addition of mica and wollastonite or any pigment that makes the melted paint thixotropic might also make it harder?

​Thanks, Brian.  Koo

​Hi Brian, thank you for your response. Yeah you're right, I should just keep painting and not worry about the durability of the early work as much since I'm so caught up in it right now. 

Yes I want to add a canvas layer so I can retain the rigidity, but also so if the rigid support ever fails or is broken in an accident, the fabric can be removed and placed onto a new panel. 

I see your point with the cotton vs linen on a rigid panel debate. I will most likely stick with cotton, but one of the reasons I wanted to use linen is that if I ever work with super heavy impasto layers and the painting needs to be taken off the rigid support and put onto stretchers, I've seen many people say linen will support heavy impasto way more then cotton. If it's glued to a rigid support it doesn't matter, but if a conservator ever needed to switch it I would want the fabric to be agreeable and not sag. However none of this matters unless I'm selling enough to justify the price difference, so I gotta start painting again.

Regarding the moisute barrier, what I meant was I saw Sarah Sands from Golden mention in another thread that GAC 100 is a terrible moisture barrier for wood, and that wood should be sealed using the methods here http://www.justpaint.org/preparing-panels-for-a-life-outdoors/ - I am just trying to figure out if there's a way to seal wood from moisture (I live in a high humidty area), that I can do safely in a low ventilation area. I've heard of B-72 before but have no idea how it works or if it's something I should try or can safely use in my work environment. 

​Hi Matthew,

The oil was 100% clove bud oil from Holland & Barrett (Health food shop here in the UK). The pigments used were PBk11 for the mars blacks, PBk6 for the lamp black, PW6/PW4 for the whites, PR101 for the red iron oxides, PY42 for the yellow ochre and PBr24 for the naples yellow deep.

So you can see that the PBk11 with clove oil vapours dried in 14+, 3, or only 1 day depending on the brand..

​Thank you all for your help. Especially Sarah for writing that comprehensive and useful Essay :)

I can imagine that the timescale involved is what makes it harder to test these things as well. Let's paint a pigment in a certain percentage of linseed oil on Dibond, now do the same with the oil being Safflower, or Walnut. Ok, now let's see how long it takes to crack. Hmm. decades, centuries did you say?

Well I end up getting tied up in knots worring about archival concerns.

Thanks, all

Richard

​Thank you Brian,

Actually doesn't your explanation of all the different attributes suggest that 'durable' is too simple a word to describe the differences between paint films?

​Thank you very much for the answers.

​I posted here recently where I found that several coats of Bullseye 1-2-3 primer resulted in the oils being sucked out of the subsequent layer of oil paint extreemly quickly.

Maybe 1 layer would have worked better, but it has made me reluctant to use this primer again.

​This is great, thanks so much!

I just came across this wonderful article and I was wondering if the homemade version of Marvelseal is also advisable for canvases (linen, hemp or cotton duck) or just wood?

Would it also make sense to apply this plastic/aluminium backing to thick watercolour paper before framing it, to prevent potential contamination from the backings used in most commercial frames?

https://www.naturalpigments.com/artist-materials/moisture-barriers-artwork-supports/

A lot of useful information in this book if you are interested in the technical aspects of painting but the author is certainly no teacher. When I tried to find out how to prepare a plywood panel for archival oil painting I nearly lost the will to live and in the end decided to revert to stretcher bars and canvas. No doubt the information is all in there, but the author seems incapable of describing anything in simple terms or structures his explanations properly. His other book The Painter’s craft is more useful in practical terms. I was reluctant to buy this because it doesn't seem to be available on kindle and it seemed a little pricey. But a course that I was doing listed it as required reading. So I bought it. It is a hefty volume and having read nearly 200 pages so far, I can see why it would be required reading for artists. It is full of comprehensive and essential information that I wouldn't expect to find elsewhere. It has been referred to as 'The Bible for artists'. I think rightly so.

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​Hi Matthew, Thank you for the reply and sharing your insight on the fillers for those commerical grade paints. Those are very good reasons to stay with the "artist" grade materials. Patrick McGuire

It is relief to know I can use plastic container in this manner.

Yes Brian, I have no need to use needles with syringes, I just improvise caps.​

​Thanks Matthew, Margaret and Brian for the comments, all of which are helpful.  I have several of the books mentioned; they are excellent but also long and dense, just haven't gotten through every page yet - but I'll continue to read and dig deeper into metalpoint.  Your input is much appreciated.  Koo

​Just to add to this, I did a quick test which although not scientific was useful.

I applied several different products to a normal A4 sheet of printer paper. Once dry for 24 hours I applied one drop (with an eyedropper) of walnut oil to the centre of each section. Over the course of an hour I observed the effects.

The fastest soaking in was of course a control of walnut directly on the paper.

Next to that was a layer of white acrylic paint (Acrylicos Vallejo Acrylic Goache range) which the oil started to soak in before the hour was up.

W&N Galeria Gesso and W&N Professional Clear Gesso were a lot better.

The best I saw was GAC100 by Golden - no soak in after one hour.

This confirmed to me that the acrylic paint I was using wasn't blocking the absorbtion of the oil into the primer underneath very much.

​ok thanks would i use OMS ? any feedback on the WN product?

​Thanks so much, Kristin...I will look at your links here. I follow that "better safe than sorry" approach too, so I appreciate the cautionary note.

​No need to worry about the delay, I'm grateful for everyone here giving their time for free to help us out :)

It was a shame it happened, I didn't dare use that surface agaib. It does remind me that for all of scientific advances in the creation of art there still seems an awful lot of unknowns about things like this.


​Thank you for this more in-depth description of the make-up and usage of your new product, Michael. Much appreciated!

​Thank you for your thoughts, Brian. I hope the Michael Harding folks do comment, especially with more information than what I've read in their product literature.

​Wow, that was fast!  Thanks for your help.  I'll let my friend know your thoughts (and will let you know if anything interesting comes from conserving the piece).

Koo

Oh! Guess what! I just heard from Louie at 1Shot.com who says that Smith's Cream has not been discontinued and I should ask my distributer to order it. Yes! ​

​The safest way to raise the rh is to drop the temperature a bit. Play with this tool http://www.dpcalc.org/ and you can figure out how much of a temperature drop it will take to get the rh where you want it. You can certainly also use a humidifier but do so with caution. 

Joelle Wickens, Preventive Conservator, Winterthur and Association Director, Winterthur/University of Delaware Program in Art Conservation

​At Winterthur, our goal is to control rh swings to no more than 10% in 24 hours. This is pretty standard practice these days, although some museums still aim for 5% in 24 hours. In the summer we maintain our environment between 40 and 65% and in the winter 30 - 55%. Again this range is a bit broader than some are currently accepting, 35 - 55 or 40 - 60 is pretty standard.

Hanging anything on an exterior wall can be problematic but in my house, I do it all the time. We also do it at Winterthur. One thing to watch for is significant differences in interior and exterior temperature and rh. The result can be condensation on the back of a frame. If you can find a way to mount the piece of the exterior wall with a spacer between it and the wall (allowing some airflow) you may mitigate this risk.

​So, I'd like to close out this conversation with an update... I did various tests using a variety of adhesives to adhere the print to a primed canvas - we chose to go with Lascaux 303 for this part of the project. I also also applied a variety of finishes to the surfaces of the prints and the one David chose to go with had about 3 coats of Golden Archival Gloss Varnish (Aerosol) with a couple of finishing coats of the Archival Satin Varnish. I will most likely do my usual treatment of the canvas (brushed on soft gel plus gloss varnish) prior to applying the print. The print will be surfaced with the spray-on Archival Varnishes prior to adhering to the canvas.

Thanks to the respondents on this forum, and to Debra Norris and the MITRA program for their assistance... David  and I very much appreciate the advise we received!

​Thank you, Kristin. Yes, the board is prepared on both sides.Yes, to be dispayed on a 6 month rotational schedule, and I would hope it could last several years, more than 1 or 2! The spray varnish I have now is Krylon, uv archival.

There are other media than artists' oils that I'm considering- 1shot enamels ( another recent posted question regarding oneshot is mine). I can't face acrylics, I tried golden open and it doesn't go the distance or blend or move enough for me, so I prefer those enamels, so far.  Perhaps alkyd outdoor house paint but I have yet to buy a palette of quarts.... It would be a relief to just use what I'm used to, artist's oils, the trade-off being durability. Will the Krylon stand up to weather? as well as uv. Or another product?

By the way, I don't know what to mix into enamels, or outdoor Alkyd, as a medium or an additional colour in a tube (that isn't oils). As far as I know it is prohibitive to mix 1shot with oils. What about the new alkyd artists' colours? would they mix into enamels or house paint? The point being to have a better blending and a thicker-bodied paint as well as having small amounts of other colours for the mix. 

The painting will be a more or less traditional landscape, underpainting and wet in wet application, with perhaps a touch a few days later. I can wait 6 months if I do it in oils before using the varnish, the installation is next April. 

Thanks again, your advice is valued!

 

​Thanks so much for your quick reply, Brian! Much appreciated. Your answer regarding the 10% RH spread really put my mind at ease. As you say, we can only do our best.

I do have a few follow-up questions: 

1. What would you define as a "fast" RH change?

2. Since my landlord is planning to seal the brick, would that mitigate your concerns about hanging paintings on those two exterior walls? Otherwise, my ideas include rotating the work around, or hanging framed work in other media on those walls -- though it really looks quite nice the way it is currently installed. :o)

3. Since historically, it has taken me a bit longer to execute an oil than it might a faster painter, when you say "older oil paintings" here, I am wondering how you would categorize 2007? Those are the oldest oils I currently have hanging on those exterior walls. 

4. I do have a couple of paintings that were exposed to subpar climate conditions elsewhere, so the stretcher bars for these linen canvases got just a little twisted. If you lay them upside down on a flat surface (while protecting the painting side), they easily come back into square. Is it a reasonable approach to carefully put triangular braces of masonite (or another material) on the backs in the corners to hold the paintings square once more?

5. During periods of low humidity in the winter, what is the best way to safely raise the RH of a studio space?


Thank you again so much for your time and information! I really appreciate it.

​PS -- I should clarify that the minor deformations to the small, flat panels are some bowing issues that, thankfully, can be remedied.

Gee, this is really encouraging, Brian. If I get my order and the expreriments go well, I'll go with the oneshot! (without the alkyd unless I need a touch of another colour). Thanks! Have a great weekend!​

Thanks so much, Brian. What a lot of interesting information,​ smalt, wow!

I have used One Shot just recently, while experimenting with some cans at least ten years old and like you say, had to crack though the skin. I started with a wash, a very thinned combo of colours, which is the way I usually start with my regular oils. It moved, it went far on the ground, and I felt I could get started 'properly'. I spoke with the people at Canadian Signcrafters ( a branch only, now, of a larger company) who recommended the Smith's Cream, not to smalt!, but to better blend, they said. So, I am waiting for an order to arrive, and I'll experiment more. (I hope they find their stock! being a discontinued product.)

 I feel that you are warning me, and so I wonder 1) if using the oneshot not straight out of the can or in a lettering/signpainting fashion, is going to compromise the durability because then I may just as well go with my regular oils, which is not supposed to last well outdoors at all. Also, 2) if I can handle the application of a mix of oneshot and alkyd artist's colours, then, after a while, will the chemical makeup do something weird to the oneshot? Seven years would be good, I think! Not one or two though.

You are helping me think about it. Thank you.

​Brian I appreciate your time. I’m not trying to store liquid solvent in the bags, just any small amount that would be left on the paper towels after brush cleaning.  I’m fine sticking with the glass mason jars, I just feel like my attempt at some submersion containment system could be better. I’m essentially to the point where I’m just weighing my paper towels  down in the jars with small rocks so I can keep filling the jar over the course of a week or so to get the most out of it. It feels like a dumb, archaic type of system. But I suppose the only alternative is a larger version of that that I couldn’t store or even lift to transport after awhile. Unfortunately most of my painter friends have zero containment procedures, so I’m kind of striking out on my own here. 

​would the same idea work with ziploc freezer bags? For the sake of space, weight and cost. Or would any small amounts of solvent present  eventually eat through the plastic. 

​Thanks again Sarah, the collaged print is a smaller element on a larger canvas, but one edge of the print comes right to one of the edges of the canvas. This common edge is where I can imagine some problems occuring in the future. It hasn't been decided yet by the artist if a top coat (other than a UV protective spray) is desired - but I can see the argument for adding a top coat, not only for UV protection or an aestetic "unification" of the surface, but for the protection of the print's edges, which I can imagine over time wanting to peel up. Thanks for the tip on the MSA varnish... I'll look into that!

Thank you Sarah and Matthew for your detailed responses - very helpful!​ Although this process (the collaging of an inkjet print to a canvas) isn't something we are making a habit of here (David Hockney Studio), we want to make sure we get it right. I'm glad I stumbled on to this site (Thanks Marie!)... Greg Rose, DH Studio

​I've tried watercolors, but my understanding is that as an underpainting it must *all* be covered up in the finished painting, no edges showing...not a fan of acrylics, really...and egg tempera must (I read) be used on panels because of its brittle nature. I'd like to leave my options open as far as supports go. I find an acrylic gesso primer to be rather too absorbant to just do a simple wipe-out with solvent-free paint...Am I missing something?

​Kristen (or others)...these additives in water-miscible oil paints...is there concern in the conservation community that they might lead to de-lamination (like the Zinc issue) somewhere down the road, or some other structural malfunction? I'm weighing my odds here, as I do really like using them as a very fluid and thin solvent-free underpainting approach. And would painting on a rigid support mitigate some of the concerns? Barring their use, the only other solvent-free thin underpainting solutions I've come up with are acrylics, watercolor and egg tempera... Thank you!

​Thisis a reply offering clarification as to the type of coating I wish to apply to wood turnings. From my readings it is said that oil varnishes are better then Spirit varnishes. I wish to prepare And apply a permanent coating that seals, remains flexible and has a high gloss.  

​Thank you so much for your clarity, Kristin!

​​Yes, that was the post I remembered, Kristin. It seems from re-reading Brian's reply about water-miscible oil paints used as an underpainting orimprimatura, that the official opinion is "yes, but we can't know for sure if they will age archivally." Would that be your take on this question too, Kristin? Thanks so much!

​So just  to be very clear, paper towels/rags recently wet with solvent can be immediately submerged in water while still wet with solvent  without any significant consequences? I just don’t know much about chemistry like that. 

​I know for liability sake you can’t offer asssurances on any methods. I read through the safety document again and have tried to formulate something I’m comfortable with, and able to execute in an apartment. I have a red oily waste can, inside, mason jars that I slowly fill with my paper towel waste, and water. My only question is if I also have mineral spirits on the paper towels, do I need to allow that to evaporate, or can mineral spirits rags  be submerged in water as well. These jars will ultimately be taken to my local transfer station as hazardous waste. 

​Okay thanks Kristin, I'll keep this in mind!

Grant

​Forgive me for not reading the 'storage' resources first. I now see for my short term vertical stacking dividers, acid free cardboard or foam core, or high density polyethelene have been advised. If there is anything else to add I'll take it, but thanks either way!

T

​I'm not sure if this is information you already have but this site has some traditional recipes for wooden finishes: Http://www.woodfinishingenterprises.com/techinfo.html, but it seems that you need to buy the author's book to get all of the instructions.

Scott Rowley

​Thank you, Brian. I've read that elsewhere as well. I've pretty much shelved the idea, as the long-term care seems to be much more problematic than for well-framed watercolors.

​"The other direction (eg softer wax with a harder addition) seems to have sufficed for a couple of millennia. In essence, why not start with beeswax and add a hardener to that to achieve your desired level of hardness/flexibility"

Good point. I didn't know what formulation had been used for millennia. And I guess because I'm compulsively curious and experimental,. But also when I experimented I liked the jewel-like quality of the pigmented carnauba. I wanted to see if I could get a tough film without yellowing for low pigment volume concentrations. If the yellowing of dammar at 20% is not very noticeable I might be trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

If I want a tough clear film with no yellowing for low pigment concentrations acrylics might be a good idea.

Also, a thin enough application of 100% carnauba and pigment absorbed into the gesso so that I could hardly mark it when I scratched it with my fingernail.

​Acrylics can be painted on a variety of surfaces that's why many artists and craftsmen use these paints <a href="http://pmeli.ac.id/id/berita-artikel/artikel/interlinking-diversity-challenges-toward-ideal-engagement-id" title="Pengembangan SDM">Interlinking Diversity</a>. Canvas is the most popular surface for acrylic paintings but you can apply them on to wood, fabric, ceramic, plastic, cardboard paper, metal, leather, dolls, stones, panels, models for trains, cars and houses. In some cases the surface needs to be sealed with an appropriate sealer for acrylic paints.

​As I suspected, Matthew...thank you so much for the professional confirmation.

Hi, I am working on an icon with a large surface area of gold, with that, the gold is at risk for damage. 

​Thank you for the information Brian

Hi Brian ,

Thank you very much for the information. I did try an acrylic dispersion ground from liquitex, but for some reason it did not adhere that well to the canvas, the epoxy could be pulled off a bit too easily.  Could the reason be that it was applied directly to the fabric prior to sizing it with an acrylic medium? or not the right thickness and amount of layers applied? 

For sizing you mention that it would be a sufficient hold out , do you mean permanent ? 

Regarding the sizing , is an acrylic polymer (acrylic dispersion medium designed as size) more durable (archival) than a PVA size ? If yes could you please recommend the most durable ones in the market ?

You recommended following directions for sizing fabric intended for an oil ground, is there a particular reason for this ?

Do you think that Size → Ground→ Epoxy is a permanent and best solution instead of Ground→Epoxy or Size→Epoxy ? 

If you think the Sizing → Ground → Epoxy is the best solution , could you recommend the best grounds + sizing for this application ? 

Thank you in advance for your help. 

Best.

Tao

(To make it clearer) I would like to know what sealer can be used on fabric that is compatible with magic smooth epoxy and create a permanent bond. 

Thank you.

Best,

Tao

I think that the cheapest option I can get would be a roll of disposable cotton wipes. As far as I know, they're just pieces of thin, pure cotton cloth. Would those work?​

Thanks for the answer. Would thin cotton or polyester rags be better than paper? I remember reading that cotton tends to age better.

​Oh, I see. That does make sense. Thank you very much, Brian!

Amanda Teicher

Hello. I took a look at the suggested thread, but it seems like it's mostly about keeping acidic paper fairly intact. What I would like to know is, will the inevitable deterioration of the paper hurt the acrylic/PVA within which it is encased? Would the polymer layer crack or yellow? Would brittle materials like gypsum be affected more?

​Thanks Joan, Kristin and Margaret. It’s very interesting and rather mysterious as I had thought that the acids in oil were corrosive to both paper and canvas. This is reassuring, despite being perplexing! I love the look of oil based ink on paper so am glad to hear that it generally holds up well, with quality paper. 

​Thank you for this very clear and technical answer, Brian. Much appreciated.

​Thanks Kristin.

​Thank you Andrew! :)

​Thank you Matthew for your help. That makes me less inclined to paint with lamp black alone!

​Hello,

I did receive some additional incites from the chemist at Sennelier (This has been translated from French to English, so please let me know if something does not make sense).

"First of all, one shall keep in mind that the resins and oils that are used are the same as for the traditional mediums (ketonic resins for the liquid medium and safflower oil for the gel medium). The non-toxic characteristic is due to the fact that the solvent used are non-toxic. The names of these solvents are proprietary. What we can say is that they are the result of a combination of fatty acids and ester (essence) of vegetable origin."

"-Per the above description, Green for Oil thinner is not of biodiesel origin."

Please continue to let us know of any questions, and I will work to get you the best possible response.

Thank you,

Andrew Cook

Savoir-Faire 

 

Interesting about the wood grain affecting the aging paintings. Because wood expands and contracts, if I were to apply wood veneer to an ACM substrate, I'd probably need to veneer both sides. Then stain and seal the face veneer, and seal the back veneer. Lots of work. Not sure it would be a good idea, when so many artists can simply buy a birch plywood panel at the art-supply store, and may not know about formaldehyde. I'll chew on this information, and focus on developing copper-veneer panels and slate-veneer panels before I try birch and walnut. 

Amanda Teicher

​Whoops, forgot to say - that last post was from Koo Schadler.

​FYI, I once visited the widow of a well-regarded tempera artist; she proudly showed me his large paintings.  The work was around 40 years old, executed on plywood with no cloth between panel and gesso. In raking light I could see a wood grain pattern telegraphing through the paint layers; on closer inspection, hairline cracks, aligned with the wood grain, were visible in the paint layers.  

I've been thinking about birch veneer. I would like to think about developing a birch-veneer panel on a substrate of aluminum composite material. I suppose I would adhere the wood veneer with BEVA 371 film. I could then stain the birch a lovely wedgewood blue, and the wood grain could represent water or just be visually interesting. Is there a way to make such a panel good enough to satisfy y'all? After reading the comments above, I'm tossing out the idea of staining a birch plywood panel from the art supply store or a lumber yard. A prominent manufacturer, American Easel, told me that their birch plywood is phase 2 carb compliant, meaning it contains .05 ppm of formaldehyde in the plywood. At first I thought this could work, but now I'm doubtful. 

Anyway, I'd like to tinker around with various veneers to develop novelty panels for artists, and I'd like them to be satisfactory to conservators. So, what do you think?

Thanks, 

Amanda Teicher

​And, unless I use an oil-based ground like Gamblin Ground for this application, I'd be working without solvents, even in the Imprimatura. Thank you for your suggestions.

​Thank you very much, Kristin and Ben. Perhaps it's best to conclude that oil paintings made on copper will inevitably lose that bright, shiny look, and a painter would be wise to embrase the aging. Perhaps an artist's process would be easier if the copper panel arrived at the studio already aged. I'll continue reading, and I appreciate your help. 


Amanda Teicher

​Right, copper covered in paint does corrode at the paint-metal interface; I was speaking more to the behavior of copper without paint on it (as you'd have in areas of a painting where the copper was left exposed for effect, as the original poster suggested). On its own, copper doesn't tend to form a green patina unless it's in a high humidity environment.

Just a quick additional comment: it's not true that copper is "incredibly prone to corrosion." In fact, copper is incredibly resistent to corrosion, which is why it is so often used for outdoor architectural elements (i.e. rain gutters, roofing, the Statue of Liberty). But, it won't stay shiny. A layer of cuprous oxide will inevitably form on the surface, which takes it from being shiny and reflective to looking more like an old penny. If subjected to enough moisture, it will form a greenish patina (like the Statue of Liberty), but this is unlikely to happen on copper that is kept indoors. 

Unlike oxidation on iron (rust is fragile and tends to flake off), this oxidation layer adheres strongly to the copper and helps to protect it against further corrosion. The only real downside is that you lose the shininess. So I'd be careful about employing copper in such a way that the shiny, new copper surface is critical to the aesthetics of the work. There's a good chance that will go away eventually, and then there' won't be any practical way of getting it back. Historically, copper used as a support for oil painting was primed with white lead, so oxidation at the surface of the copper would not impact the appearance of the painting. 

-Ben

​Thanks Brian. 

​I suppose it's expected that each commenter signs his or her comment. 

Amanda Teicher, Seattle

​Update: I'm reading the document "Rigid Supports" found in the Resources section, and I intend to study all the relevant documents in the Resources section. I've also read previous discussion threads about copper. So I may not need any fresh information, unless someone has something to say about copper on a substrate of aluminum composite material. If I do develop such a panel, my plan is to adhere copper to ACM with Beva 371 film, following the advice of a customer-service rep at Museum Services Corporation. Thanks.  

​Hi Brian,


I know you are busy, so your indepth replies are much appreciated.   Everything you say makes sense and is helpful - thanks!


Koo

Sorry for late response but thank you so much guys! Its all great information and i will try to look more into the resources mentioned.One thing that fascinates me about the northern renaissance is how pristine most of the paintings look despite how old they and I feel it boils down to the preparation of the materials that they did and the application of paint they had. The thing I am most confused about is the whole resin thing and the use of lead as a drying agent in their paints (if they did either). I understand if the resin was used it was in extremely small amounts as the work definitely wouldnt be as brilliant as it is.​

​Thank you Andrew. Those SDS sheets don't seem to show any toxicology concerns from VOC emissions as far as I can see..

Can you tell us, or are able to find out, if this thinner is a methyl ester of fatty acids (a biodiesel), or something else?

 I think if we understand what it is, then a lot of artists would feel more comfortable about using it.

Hello Everyone. I am with Savoir-Faire, the exclusive importer and representative of Sennelier in the United States. I have included some SDS sheets above that I beleive should clarify many of these questions. As I receive more details, I will certainly pass them along.

Thank you,

Andrew Cook

Its make perfect sense to me. Thanks a lot Brian!
Ariel Gulluni.

​Thank you Matthew!

I'm hoping Sennelier will come back to yourselves here or the original poster on the Wet Canvas thread with more information about what it is.

​Brian, 

I am refering to the desk that can be seen on the second photo here:

https://canadianart.ca/news/alex-colville-studio-mount-allison-university/

One of the questions is: what should the height of the desk be? When I work in a sitting position, the desk is slightly higher than my belly middle. So I guess that standing desk should be the same?

Thanks,

Thomas

​Can we clarify this thread. I would like to separate VOCs in the toxicology report as this is the main reason why people dont use solvents as theyvarevairborne and much harder to control. Thankyou.

​I agree with Dan Burge's comments. The thing about inkjet is that it is still a relatively new technology (compared to many other image-making processes), and materials are still developing (albeit at a slower rate than, say, 20 years ago). The other factor that sets inkjet apart from many traditional processes is that the choices for mixing materials (principally inks and substrates) are huge. This has the advantage that artists can be very experimental, but the disadvantage is that you will get many recommendations to do one thing or another, and it will be difficult to make choices. In addition, we still don't really know how a lot of this will play out in the future. 

Given these fundamental thoughts, I would suggest going with what seems as stable as possible, and what follows common sense: an uncoated polyester film should be pretty stable - we know this from experience. It does have the disadvantage of holding static charges, though. Polycarbonate might be another option. As for inks, it appears that solvent-based or UV-curing inks that contain only pigments (beware of admixtures of dyes, which might be more light-sensitive) might be the best way to print on PET and PC. As Dan pointed out, these inks are often used for outdoor signage. You're probably not going to get the same resolution as you would with water-based inks on coated papers, and you will get a surface relief from the ink, but if you can live with this, I would go ahead and try it. If you choose solvent-based inks, let them air for a while before framing. This may not be the issue with UV-curing inks though.

In the end, it will remain experimental, but if you can live with that, I would go ahead and experiment!

Kind regards,

Martin Jürgens

Rijksmuseum Amsterdam

​Thank you Kristen and Kerith. I didn't realise that there wasn't a proper requirement to list toxicity issues on the product. I assumed there was based on all the warnings you see on other solvents.

If Sennelier confirm that it is a methyl ester of fatty acids then would that still be classed as toxic, or more akin to a low viscosity slow drying oil?

Thank you!

​Thanks, Matthew.  I appreciate your input.  Koo

​Marble dust is one thing I've tried that seems to help somewhat, but I also want to thin the consistency of the paint, which degrades the stringiness that the marble dust adds. So maybe my diluting agent needs to somehow add/retain stringiness?

​Besides in her book Noelle Streeton also subtly demonstrates that even in our days with all that we know already we rather might be more reluctant in making firm statements about the 'one and only' painting technique of Van Eyck.  

​"Perspectives on the Painting Technique of Jan Van Eyck: Beyond the Ghent Altarpiece," by Noelle Streeton, is also worth checking out, and references a lot of the most recent scholarship on the materials and techniques of his oeuvre.

-Ben

It would likely be my painting if I were to experiment with this, but I've been told that it's actually the chelating agents in spit which make it work., so it now seems like a dead end.

My first thought, after I heard it was chelating agents which got the job done, was to use edta, as that is the common chelating agent in food, but than I did some reading about the various chelating agents tested, and how to optimize cleaning methods/batches for ph.

This question seems stupid, but it took me down a rabbit hole.

Also, my question with regard to garlic also seems stupid, but I know sulfur (which is in garlic and remains in spit for days) + lead = lead sulfide ; thus, if I were to spit polish an unvarnished surface, and the spit were to remain upon and interact with the lead, blackening could occur.





Thank you Brian and Matt for the responses.  

I paint Alla Prima, and these small paintings are painted at life sessions or at home from a still life setup, most of them are completed in 30 to 90 minutes. I wouldn’t call the paint layer in these paintings “thin” but certainly not impasto.  I only use a touch of Gamsol at the beginning for a burnt umber sketch (not for massing in like some artists though) and sometimes I add just a touch of walnut oil if the paint from the tube is too thick.

I’ve been painting with oils for about a year and only recently found out about the issue with Zinc, and am phasing out zinc containing white. What I have been doing recently is mixing my remaining M. Graham titanium white (5% zinc in walnut oil) with Williamsburg Titanium white (no zinc in linseed oil) at a ratio of 1:1.  The painting I want to give as a gift (a 60 minute gestural portrait done from life) does contain zinc (M. Graham titanium white, 5% zinc).  After using up the zinc containing titanium white, I am thinking about mixing titanium white with lithopone white to see how it handles.  I keep reading about sponginess and weeping of pure titanium white.  I haven’t worked with the Williamsburg titanium white on it’s own yet though and don’t have an opinion.  I’m not sure if mixing lithopone white into titanium white would provide any benefit?  

I hadn’t thought of framing the oil sketch for some reason.  I was thinking of mounting on hardboard and putting it in a plein air frame would be best, but framing with a mat is probably the easiest solution.

Matt- I use the gessoed oil paper because at a single life painting session, I create anywhere from 3-5 pieces, and since I still am not yet a confident oil painter, maybe one painting per session might be worth keeping. Many of my still life paintings have been exercises using a monochromatic palette and all of them have been meant as studies only.  It seems easier for me to throw out studies on oil paper than hardboard, even though gessoed hardboard is my preferred surface.  The problem arises in that occasionally a gestural portrait or still-life study turns out really nice!  I am transitioning to oils from pastel- pastel and watercolor paintings sure take a lot less space to store than oil paintings on hardboard!

Thanks again for your time on this forum- I have learned a lot from MITRA.

Hi Brian, thank you once again, I was able to find a 9x9 but it was very loosely woven and it wouldn´t work, for a painting that size what would be the minimum weight g/m2 that you would recommend?

​I would look for brands like Libeco out of Belgium they have been producing linen since 1864. So they would propbly be your best bet. 

​Thank you so much Brian, I have only seen belle arti list their thread count, I reached out to jackson art and couldn´t provide me with the info. I am will try to reach out to kremer and Utrech, If I can not find a linen 8x8, what linen unprimed would you recomend for a painting this big.  295 cm × 195 cm (116 in × 77 in)

​Thanks for the info!

Thanks Matthew and Brian. Yes, she paints small-ish, between 11x14 and 24x36 inches, and thinly, no impasto, so only small amounts of paint are involved. No spraying either - incidentally, in the studies I mentioned the house paints were sprayed. In any case, she'll be happy to have it confirmed that there aren't safety issues about her sleeping in her work area, so long as solvents aren't used. 

   I'll ask her about how she disposes of her painting rags etc. 

   Thanks again, it's appreciated.  

​Brian, Thank you so much! I wil try and report back with the results.

​Thank you Sarah! Very useful.. :)

Hi, Brian and Sarah thank you so much. I want to make a reproduction of the Virgin of Guadalupe and most of the original paintings that copied the original and if not the original contained cochineal and the cochineal have faded, I want to find out what the color could have looked like, from then on... I would like to find a modern more permanent substitute maybe using a pigment like pv19...or other colors that would let me replicate as close as possible what the natural cochineal color looks like.... any suggestions as what modern colors would most likely replicate the original carmine hue?


​Thank you Brian!

I can buy the Lascaux Fixative spray here in the UK as well :)

I did wonder if a fixative would work as I thought it might be a very thin coating of polymer resin, but wasn't sure.

Ironically I already have a fixative of a different brand, but I guess without knowing what ingredients are used it's best not to risk it.

Slightly related question if Sarah Sands is reading this, do you think that Lascaux Fixative would seal Golden Open paints enough to glaze over without the paint lifting? I did a test after 3 days of being touch-dry with high-flow medium only and some parts still lifted..

For synthetic brushes, I happen to like: Escoda (Versatil), Raphael (Kevrin) and actually Princeton's new Aspen series. I mainly use synthetics with only the background done in bristle hair brushes. These can be ordered online via Jerry's Artarama and Dick Blick. If you are in the NYC metro area, Jerry's Intenational Palette Shop has the Escoda and the Raphael. Blick stores seem to now carrier the Princeton Aspen and may carry  the other two depending on the store.

I have heard really good things about Rosemary & Co's best synthetic bristle. Not sure what it is called but it is on their website.

good luck and enjoy! - Karmen

​Are there any variations in archival quality between solvent based inks on polyester printable sheets, as opposed to pigment or water based inks?  One company I spoke to which supplies polyester printable films in the UK suggested solvent based inks were more durable, even if framed behind UV glass.  Another printer I spoke to disagreed.  Can you give any further advice? - I have managed to locate companies supplying polyester inkjet printable films, so thank you for this advice (I was searching under Mylar/Melinex and gettiing nowhere).  The issue now is the inks!

​kristen that looks great, you are always a wealth of knowledge. Brian just as a curiostiy in replacing damaged areas of painting, not necessarily aesthetic. If you have a general recommendation for an average texture Sargent might have used, I've also noticed De laszlo had some very textured linen. Thanks guys.

​Many thanks - disappointing confirmation but important to know.  Do you have suggestions re any other computer printable transparent materials which I can safely overlay over lithographs/watercolours.  If not, I will put this method to bed!  

Excellent, Brian - that is really helpful.  I know perfect paintings aren't possible, but make an effort; and I'm equally motivated to give students informed answers (many of my MITRA posts are questions people ask me but I don't know how to answer).  So thanks for your help.  And congratulations on your daughter's first birthday, and getting a break from the Internet.  I took a full month absence from the computer this winter and didn't miss it at all, tho' now that I'm back on it I wonder how I lived without it....  Koo

​Thanks, Matthew - you answered all my questions.


Koo

​Thanks so much Matthew, Kristen, Ron, and to the poster who suggested Trekell. Kristen, to answer your question, I work directly as opposed to in glazes but thin my paint with Gamsol and linseed oil until it brushes on smoothly. I try to strike a balance of fluidity and opacity. I also work on a very smoothly sanded acrylic or oil ground. My paintings have gestural passages which fade into flat color fields and surface is an important component. For the gestural passages, I like to use soft, round brushes that maintain a nice point. In the flatter color fields, I use larger, soft, flat brushes. Because of the way the transitions are composed though, the round brushes make up some of the color fields before the flat brushes take over. I'll often have over ten brushes going in a single painting to help me keep the colors clean. Like Ron mentioned, synthetic sable brushes start out nice and then get easily splayed which is frustrating. Sable is cost prohibitive because I use so many brushes, and I also prefer not to use animal products. I will look into synthetic mongoose and Trekell brushes, and try cleaning my splayed burshes with paint stripper.  Thanks again! -Aliza

Me again.  I've ferreted out a specific question from my preceding post: should a varnished egg tempera be treated differently on the back from an unvarnished egg tempera?

​I had hoped to afix only the top edge of the Mylar to the lithograph using a conservation type tape so that it would be held in place during framing (I was not intending to affix the entire surface of the Mylar to the print).  The taped edge would then be hidden by a mount before framing behind glass - in the same way prints are normally held in place behind a frame.

I have been advised by one plastics firm that printable Mylar sheets are not archival because of the coating (receptor) on one side.  If this is the case, is it safe to apply the Mylar sheet with the coated, printable side on the outside so that the untreated side only is in contact with the lithograph, thereby preventing possible complications?

Thank you for your responses.  

Thanks, Brian - that's all very helpful.  


I appreciate (and aspire to) the goal of protecting the front and back in such a way that they respond in similar manners to humidity.  However I am unclear about the challenges of that goal, how much an artist should consider.  

 

For example, even if one can, more or less, replicate paint layers on front and back, should one also consider the varying environmental conditions on each side?  Does the back of a panel experience meaningfully higher levels of RH because it's against the wall and there is less circulation (especially if it's an outer wall, with temperature differences)? 

 

Another example: is it better to try to equalize the amount of RH allowed to enter into a painting's front and back, so the panel's expands/contracts evenly; or, if you have a relatively absorbent front (such as an unvarnished egg tempera), is it more important to seal the back well (even though that creates a different back and front) to prevent moisture from entering into the panel (via the back), which, if too much moisture is within the panel, may eventually affect adhesion of tempera paint, or cause mold? 

 

I'm not trying to drill down to inane depths of detail or be a pain in the neck - just trying to understand what and how much an artist should take into consideration.

 

Thanks,

 

Koo

​Thank you for your prompt reply.  The original Grafix query came from myself but I had not seen the answer.  Could you recommend any fixative that could be used to attach a Mylar sheet to a Lithograph?  The moderator who answered my original query advised against using any adhesive.  There are some UK conservation companies which advertise an archival double sided adhesive & I had hoped to use this - unless there is another alternative?

Many thanks

​Just found reply to orginal query - thank you so much for your advice and information shared

Thank you for the reply. I read the thread you linked and - as far as I can tell - so long as the differences in alkyd medium content between layers are minute, the fatness of any layer isn't as important. I'd assume that this also means that this also applies to layers that are semi-dry or touch dry, not fully dry?​

​Matthew by the way my name is Jaime GLez, appreciate the help!

Got it! Look like the one I got might work for the panel but for the frame I might need to order a new umprimed linen over 10z, now I need to figure out still which one over 10z is a good one to use with rabit skin glue and marble ground.

Kristin and Mattew thank you so much for answering. Mathew I just ordered some J66 unprimed linen from you guys. From your stock at Utrech Art what unprimed linen would you recommend for a frame 42"x70"? also what linen would be best for creating a panel the same size, I want a surface that will allow me to do detailed work while still mantaining structural inegrity.

Thank you very much to all the responses of the moderators, to Matthew Kinsey and Brian Baade.

Very soon I will make my comments.

regards

Cristian.


​Trekell makes high quality synthetic brushes. https://www.trekell.com. I really enjoy how they handle paint. On the  recent Savvy Painter podcast there is a Q and A episode with the owner and specialist discussing their brushes and panels. Give 'em a try. 

I have been using sable for many years, and apart from wear from friction at the tip, they generally stay in good condition. They are sometimes exposed to strong solvents like acetone without seeming to suffer.
I would also like to change to synthetics but, although they feel very nice to use in the beginning, all that I have tried have quickly started to splay.

One particular case I found interesting was where the fibres splayed right near the tip, like a palm tree.
Cleaning with anything (soap, mineral spirits, turpentine, acetone), seemed to make no difference and I thought the fibres must have been damaged by solvent. However, I found the tip was restored after using paint stripper!
To me, this implies that the paint bonds with the synthetic, (at least this type of synthetic), more readily than it does to natural hair. I'm no chemist though.

I have also seen quite a few complaints about synthetics not lasting very long at the 'Painting Best Practices' group on Facebook.

Ron Francis

I use a lot of black in my oil paintings and have to be extriemly carful to keep the dust out, which shows up clearly in dark colors. I've begun making cardboard and foamcore frames with screenprinting mesh over the faces. I either hang these over the paintings on the wall, or set them horizontally over the paintings on a work table when I'm not actively working on them. (Imagine a shoebox lid with a big hole cut out of top and mesh covering the hole. This is the idea, but I custom make them to the size and depth I need). It works great and I can even point a fan at the paintings to help them dry more quickly. The air circulates freely but the dust stays out. 

Good luck, 

Aliza

​Thanks Brain; I’ll give that a try. Simplicity is best sounds like a good approach. 

​Thanks for your clear and helpful answer, Brian. What I was trying to achieve, I guess (apart from experimenting  for its own sake) was to find a way to produce a fairly simple underpainting that would be “self sequestering” to use Tad Spurgeon’s term, under my oil painting. It seems this emulsion probably wouldn’t fit the bill, though, if it’s fairly fragile as you say. And I certainly don’t want to introduce problematic brittleness into my painting, even though it will be on board.  What I really want is an underdrawing in paint or an underpainting that won’t budge,  so that if, as the painting proceeds, the gremlins start to take over and drag it to the “dark side” (speaking metaphorically!) I can wipe away later layers of paint and get back to a firm underdrawing/underpainting so that I can start back from that. 

​Thanks Brian, that’s helpful. Jenny

​Having read this whole very informative thread, and being at the point of buying some lead white paint, I am left with a question. Given the choice of purchasing the lead white paint bound in either cold pressed linseed oil or “linseed oil” (presumably they mean the usual modern alkali refined LO) by the manufacturer (RGH paints) I would be better off getting the cold pressed-bound version, as lead white is a reactive pigment? 

​Thank you so much for that super helpful response.  I've played around a bit, and now find that using the Richeson Shiva Casein Emulsion (ratio 1:5 medium to water as recommended) instead of just water to control the casein paint is working quite well, as it both thins the paint for the effects I want and slows the drying time just enough to not be blotchy in a wash. I'm pretty satisfied that this will be the way to go, whether I'm doing just a casein painting or using it as an underpainting.  Thanks again!

Thanks so much.  Follow up question:  I read a comment from casein painter D. B. Clemons: "Casein is also compatible with oils when mixed together, meaning you can actually combine the two mediums, since it's a water and oil emulsifier. The advantage here is you can get the benefits of either medium: casein paint that has more body, is easier to blend, and dries more slowly due to the oil content, or oil paint that can be thinned with water, dries quicker, and looks more matte due to the casein."  I've also read of artists combining oleogel (which is basically linseed oil) into casein tube paint (Richeson brand).  

So my questions are: (1) If I mix oil paint into a mixture of casein emulsion and water (I'm thinking Richeson's Shiva Casein Emulsion), is this good practice/archival?  (This seems to be a good way to get a more liquidy underpainting as opposed to using odorless mineral spirits mixed with oil paint if the bonding of everything will be good).  (2) If I mix a watered-down casein paint into oleogel (or linseed oil), same question.  (3) I know that casein paint by itself cannot go on oil ground.  However, can I use an oil-based ground under such mixtures of casein (or casein emulsion) with linseed oil/oleogel (or oil paint)?

Here's the site where D. B. Clemons makes his comment quoted above:

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php/250197-How-do-you-use-casein-in-relation-to-oils  See also http://linesandcolors.com/2016/12/01/painting-with-casein-paint/


Thanks again!

​I figured you two were involved :-) Thanks for the update, wish I could have been there, and I look forward to the book.  Koo

​Dear Sarah and Kristin, your answers bring me good peace of mind. I am very grateful for all the contributions made in this consultation on a subject that I suppose should be a concern for many artists who want to do a job that can remain in time. I am sure that both the query and the answers will serve as a reference in Internet searches for many restless people who like me had not found much information about the possible chemical transformation of cadmium pigments (no one doubts about their lightfast). First I had made the same query in "Just Paint", but when I did not receive any response I thought that since the query was for a Web form it was likely that it had been lost or misplaced. I encourage Sarah who has written that so many good articles to present us some more knowledge by turning what she knows into a new article on this subject. I am very grateful again. Greetings.

​An update on oxidizing metalpoint drawings. My husband is a vegetable farmer and last fall his storage space (which abuts my studio, linked by a door that is sometimes open) was filled with baskets of allium vegetables, garlic and onions.  I was working on some metalpoint drawings at that time, all of which darkened very quickly.  I'm presuming the allyl sulphur compounds in the air were the culprit. Anyone hear of oxidizing metalpoint drawings using allium veggies?  I have a drawing right now under a tent with a cut onion and will report on the results...

Koo Schadler

Hi Sarah

Thank you so much, that's a through answer. It has clarified things a lot to me!

Elisane

Searching about this issue (cold pressed non-alkali refined* vs alkali refined linseed oil), I have some questions. 

Advocates of cold pressed oil claims that the film strenght and color stability would be better, what have never been proved, in practice.  So, the remaining advantage, when one talks about cold pressed non-alkali refined linseed oil, would be its higher acid value, leading to a superior capacity to absorb pigment, while grinding (such acid value being a consequence of more free fatty acids in this oil). If alkali refining process largely strips the oil of free fatty acids, it would cause this oil to have a low acid value. 

But, it seems that manufacturers added a step to this process, in order to modify the final acid value. Brian has said that today alkali refined linseed oils are available in any acid number that is required.


My questions are:

  • When someone says "low" and "high" acid values, it seems there is no formal hallmark for this chemical property. There is it? For what I have seen, cold pressed linseed oils (the edible sorts) often have an acid value below 4.  But, even among them, the value varies a bit (in a range from 0.5 to 2.5, in a research with 6 samples, for example). To make matters worse, storage for a few monts may increase free fatty acids a lot, making the initial informed acid number non-reliable.
  • I've asked and looked for the info about the acid value of alkali-refined linseed oils from a few major art brands. All of them tell that they have "low acid value", includind one that claims its oil serve as ingredient for the artist to prepare his own paint. So, which known brand offers an alkali-refined linseed oil with a high value? Ultimately, this will make a difference, or could I grind any pigment with the low acid value oil (despite the theoretical advantage in oil absorbency of the high acid value oil)? 
  • This alleged better absorbency of the high acid value oil was ever demonstrated? If so, how? Formerly, did people notice that less of this oil was necessary, when grindind paint?


*An observation: When I say "cold pressed non-alkali refined", I mean it's refined, but not throught industrial alkali-involving process. Like using those former, or "homemade" refining formulas.


Thanks for yout thoughts,


Elisane Reis

Here's the similar answer from the helpful folks at Richeson:

The Binder in the Watercolor may not interact with the emulsion well - and could create issues.  Regardless - it would result in a different paint - not Casein.  Could be an interesting experiment!  Wish we had a better answer.​

​Thanks, Matthew...very helpful!

​Update from Maimeri about Zinc in other colours:"the website is not updated, sorry about this.Zinc is in Classico whites only.White 019 contains less then 50% zinc.As alternative you can have a look at our Artisti oil range. Artisti white012, 018 and 026 contain less then 50% zinc."

Thank you​

​Thanks, Kristin.  I don't know the Ph, but note that the Natural Pigments forum recommends that when you mix your own casein that you aim for 9.0 - 9.5 (relatively high Ph).  I sent a question to Richeson about this.  But now my question (after some unsuccessful research) is how do I know which pigments are sensitive to a high Ph?  One site mentioned lake colors, but I'm having a hard time finding any other specific info.  http://www.jcsparks.com/painted/pigment-chem.html

If the sensitivity to high Ph shows up right away (e.g. if the red colors all turn to blue) then that's no big deal, as I wouldn't use the paint if it's the wrong color.  But if the color changes over time, that's obviously a problem.  It seems like this would be a problem regardless of whether I'm using the pigment in a dry form or from a watercolor tube.

​Thank you, for the reply. How does it compare to acrylics? I personally prefer oils as a medium to work with. 

​I hope it proves useful. I've posted it on WetCanvas and DrawMixPaint which I am members of.

Interestingly two manufacturers initally replied to say such information was proprierty or secret and yet when I replied about my concerns with zinc and the articles recently published on JustPaint they readily gave me the percentage used.

I wonder why they didn't reveal it at the beginning? Perhaps just an automatic response to information requests?

Thank you for introducing this tangential but important subject, Sarah.  I find many artists have implicit trust for art manufacturers products and advertising claims – as if people involved in the arts would never mislead or dissemble.  One example I often have to counter with students is the notion that "natural" based solvents are organic and thus somehow harmless – after all, many are marketed in exactly those terms.

Many years ago, on the AMIEN forum, when I was first trying to understand for myself the issue of solvents, I keep trying to get a direct answer from the forum moderators as to whether the makers of "natural" solvents who market them as non-toxic are misleading.  You were the first to directly answer me (and essentially said "yes").  I appreciated your willingness to say the hard thing then, and continue to value your clarity, knoweldge and generosity on these forums.

Koo Schadler

​Thanks for the details of your testing Ben. Certainly not what I would have expected given their claim of a faster drying time. 

The difference in drying time what what they advertise is interesting. It suggests to me that it's behaving more like a drying oil like safflower of sunflower with a paler colour, but slower drying.

The more yellowing factor in light is odd though..

​I ordered some of this oil last year to try it out. I applied thin swatches to my ongoing medium test sheets (Arches Huile oil painting paper; one is stored in the light, on a wall of my studio, the other is stored in the dark. Observations: 

1. It seems to be less prone to dark-induced yellowing. The swatch on my dark sheet is a relatively light yellow, and looks more like poppy oil or stand oil than regular linseed. 

2. In the light, however, it is MORE prone to yellowing than regular linseed oil. The swatch on my light sheet is noticeably yellower then the swatch of cold-pressed linseed oil next to it.

3. Contrary to their advertising, this is a slow-drying oil. The swatch on the light sheet took twice as long as cold-pressed linseed oil to become touch-dry, and the swatch on my dark sheet, weirdly, remained completely wet for months

Based on my observations, I decided not to use this oil. YMMV, of course.


-Ben





​Sounds very interesting, I hope further testing proves it works!

Hi Brian.

Indeed,​ there is evidence that the metal ions in lead can mitrate into adjacent layers of paint and strengthen them. You can find information in the Tumosa - Mecklenburg paper titled "The Influence of Pigments and ion Migration on the Durability of Drying Oil and Alkyd Paints".
I hope this link works ...
https://repository.si.edu/bitstream/handle/10088/20490/12.Mecklenburg.SCMC3.Mecklenburg.Web.pdf

Here is a quote from the abstract:
"But there is now considerable evidence that those metal ions are not only capable of migrating throughout a given paint layer but also sufficiently mobile to migrate from one paint layer to an adjacent one in a painting. In this case the migrating ions are capable of either enhancing or degrading the adjacent paint layers."

In the case of lead, the ions are enhancing.

​Thank you very much for your advice and help.

​Thank you very much. I will try out hard oilbars and would something like Cretacolor Nero pencils be an option?

​Thank you very much and thank you for pointing out the difference between oil pastels and oilbars.  I think with oilbars I am going to find that the drawing will be too heavy - it is the faintness and disappearing look of charcoal I am generally trying to preserve. So I might  have to put up with some yellowing, though I would try and keep the layer thin enough not to wrinkle. Do you think poppy oil would be better than stand oil and less yellowing if I have to resort to oil? Or would some sort of thin wax layer work?

​Thank you very much for your answer and help.  I  will try oil pastels but I wondered what the problems are that you think saturating the charcoal in oil might produce? 


Thanks, Kristin.

Yes, I did mean cotton verses linen. The cotton I am using is the strongest that I can find. It is #16 heavy weight, purchased at an art product supplier. It is of an extremely tight weave, and has an even thread. It is exponentially less expensive than linen, and provides a texture that is nicely compatible with glazing or other oil techniques after I hand-rub five coats of Golden Acrylic Gesso on it. My question really is: does it matter, archivally, if I use linen or this high-grade canvas, or will either transport a painting successfully into the centuries ahead, if all these precautions are taken?

From all that I have learned with research on your forum as well as talk with technical experts at both Golden and Gamblin, sizing is an important step to do before applying any ground if oil paint is to be used.

If an oil ground of any kind is being used, the sizing prevents the oil from penetrating the raw fabric. If a chalk or acrylic ground is being used, it prevents any binder seepage from either the front of the canvas (from cracks, fissures, spalls, scraping, sanding, bending, denting, pinholes or uneven application of the ground) or the back (from artist's hands, etc.).

It looks to me, from what you have written, that MITRA recommends PVA as a sizing of equal merit to acrylic dispersion medium such as GAC100 or GAC400. From discussions with Golden, I learned that the GAC products should not be applied to the back of the fabric, because they are hygroscopic, and will rewet with atmospheric moisture, and stick what is below it, after the canvas has been stretched. This was the deal-breaker for me, on three fronts: 1) the sizing was hygroscopic which would lead to greater dimensional fluctuations of the canvas than with a non-hygroscopic sizing like Gamblin's PVA. 2) I wanted to have any dimensional fluctuations that still did occur, happen independently of the cradled panel over which it was placed (stretched). In general building science, two materials that have different coefficient of thermal expansion rates should not be universally attached. Whole surface attachment, like gluing, does not allow relief from minor movements of the two substances, so causes undue stress resulting in things like buckling, spalling and cracking. 3) Indeed, I wanted the paintings on my canvases to be maintainable in the upcoming centuries, so any non-reversible glue – intentional OR unintentional - was not ideal. No glue at all was ideal in this regard.

Other considerations were that the GAC products went on and dried like plastic with greater sheen, and did not penetrate the fabric as much as the PVA. I surmise that the tooth decreases as the shine increases and therefore, I would suspect less adhesion. I also did not like the idea of inability to seal the backside. I suspect that things should either be sealed on all sides or no sides, if air, moisture or temperatures are to spread evenly, without causing instability.

When talking to Dave Bernard at Gamblin, he directed me to size both sides if using PVA so that the fabric fibres were fully saturated, and therefore encapsulated, preventing the possibility of rotting from inadvertent oil seepage as well as destabilizing moisture wicking.

I have done so, scrubbing the sizing in full strength evenly, to every fibre, with a stiff hog bristle short flat brush and scrubbing out any pooling, whatsoever. I do it on a flat surface only. I let the first side dry before sizing the other. This creates no buckling.

Upon discussion with Kristin deGhetaldi, I decided to stretch my fully sized and dry canvas over a fully untreated wooden cradled panel, using the same principle for the cradled wooden panel as for the canvas: full or no sealing. This would prevent warpage of the wood. Any off gassing from the wood to the painting is protected by the sizing. Any off-gassing or chemical penetration from wood sealers is also completely impossible aside from any sizing, because there are none.

Brian, upon these clarifications, how does this sound to you? Thanks so much for you help.

​Thanks for this extra information, Brian. I am disappointed that the M. Graham Titanium Rapid Dry is not a good, solvent-free substitute for other oil-based grounds which do contain solvents. My conversation with the manufacturor had led me to believe that it would work well as a scrubbed-in first layer. So much to digest...

​Thank you, Brian and Matthew for your thoughts on this problem. I am reassured about the use of an alkyd medium in general, but the two perspectives given for the current scratch-ability (1. not stable in the long-term re: delamination... or, 2. simply underbound--would an oil-rich next layer would solve that problem?) are a bit of a hard call. To proceed or scrap the five canvases that this is happening on, I wonder? I hope that M. Graham and Gamblin will have some further insights. In the meantime, is anyone on your staff of advisors knowledgeable about a relatively durable and fool-proof way to approach painting layers in oils *without* using solvents or mediums with solvents? The only information I have found that seems credible is M. Graham's website which states that thin layers with increasing medium added is the approach, or, better yet, painted all-in-one-go as a single layer. I keep hitting technical snags trying to work out a layered approach that seems durable, as I'm not sure I could pull off a painted all-in-one-go approach satisfactorily, relative to correct values. Besides, I do like layering and pentimento effects. Any thoughts are much appreciated.

Thank you very much for sharing Lab O in this interesting Forum. ​

A brief introduction :

When we look at a painting in a museum our focus is on the imagery, few see or consider what lies beneath, the canvas. Lab O, a laboratory created by Helena Loermans for the study and recreation of handwoven painters canvas, is located in Odemira, Portugal. Research and reconstructions to date have centred on canvases used by El Greco, Diego Velázquez and Titian.

​sorry for the typo...a comment by another painter concerning the use of Galkyd and layers of oil paint. He was strongly advising against it, but I know of several very prolific and successful painters who work exactly this way with Galkyd.

​Hmmm...sanding or graining does not seem to be a workable approach in my carpeted and tiny bedroom studio. And on a stretched canvas, sanding would be problematic too. If the second and further layers will become stiffer and less vulnerable over time, should I not be concerned that this current scratch-ability could lead to de-lamination issues in the near or distant future? Or that layering oil paints containing an alkyd medium is problematic in general? I came across another painter's opinion to that effect regarding the use of Galkyd by recently.

​Just an update.. I have secured the painting here on a wall in the room in my house that gets the most daylight. 

It's not been directly in the sunlight, but it's had a lot of indirect light and heated air from the radiators in that room. After a week and a half it is now (finally) dry!

I big thank you to all of you for your help..! :D

​That's a worrying picture you paint Sarah. I can understand the small boutique companies marking paints not having the resources to do testing. But if the large companies aren't doing testing then artists might end up with products then only reveal issues years or decades down the line.. :(

It's a bit too late for sanding, as I've already laid the ground over these bits. Since I will be covering the surface with artist-quality paints, I don't think color shift or chalking is going to be an issue anyway. I doubt that the plasticizers used in either type of paint differ that much, or that the amount would cause damage.

I'm not oblivious about the failures of some house paints (though, those were mostly alkyd- and oil- based, I think). If you have evidence of disruption of upper layers happening due to acrylic-based commercial paints, I would be interested in it. ​

Tossing the boards into the trash seems a bit wasteful for me. What do you think?

​Thank you Matthew and Kristin​.

Thank you for the answers. I like the idea of mounting an intermediate sheet of paper on top of the rigid substrate.


I was really hoping to address the longevity of cotton rag papers versus acid free papers after being gessoed. I mentioned mounting to a rigid substrate ​intending that the substrate would mitigate against any brittleness issues the paper might accrue over time.

​Thanks , Kristin. -J

If I could add a small question to the original poster's query - if the fiber length and strength of linen is its main advantage over cotton, are the two fabrics equally durable once adhered to a rigid support? - J

What a great forum this is, thank you!​ So up front one cannot say that PVA's are not suited for art. But is it save to say that in general it is safer to go with acrylics than with PVA's?

I understand that the La Pajarita paint might very well be a very fine paint. But knowing our students, would it be safe if they would mix this PVA-paint with the regular acrylics?

​Thank you Kristen.

That's fine, it was just an idea that I wondered if it would work without damaging the paint/surface.

Now you've confirmed that there are risks I won't try it :)

​Hi Kristen,

What I was thinking about was doing an underdrawing using these pens, spraying with fixative and then painting over. If there are any areas that have a transparent pigment and the lines of the drawing are showing through then they could be made invisible with the application of heat.

But I don't know if 65c would be dangerous for the acrylic or oil paint film..

​Would some kind of acrylic, polycarbonate or glass help? Would they block too much UV light?

​Thanks for these tips, Matthew and Brian...much appreciated.

I see. I will do my own testing, thank you for the advice.​

​Vinyls have somewhat notoriously low glass transition temperatures, although they can vary, from 16 C or 60 degrees F to 26 C or 79 degrees F see CAMEO http://cameo.mfa.org/wiki/Vinylite ) . A low Tg indicates that the material changes phase from a solid to a glass to a fluid at temperatures that could approach warm, summer room temperatures. Years ago conservators used to make their own inpainting pan paints using the AYA series of PVA resins and then activate them with polar solvents. They had excellent pigment dispersion characteristics as well as The almost universal problem was that the PVA's all started to "flow" at 75 degrees F, 24 degrees C and would sag and quickly absorb dust and airborne dirt. These low Tg properties may have led many manufacturers to question the durability of the media for oil painting.

Thank you for all the replies. Can I put one or more layers of acrylic medium over acrylic ground and paint over that once it's dry instead of a couch of oil?​ Or can the smoothness of the dried medium cause problems?

​I have also found that softer sythetic brushes glide better over acrylic grounds with some tooth than harder snythetic brushes. That helps with brushing..

​Thank you Brian for your comments.

I will try to hang it in indirect light in a warm environment and see if it does dry or not.

I admit to feeling a bit frustrated.. The way I paint at the moment is to build up from dark to light and blending wet into wet. I only have a few hours each day to work and sometimes no time for several days. The use of clove oil does help me avoid having to do remixing or repainting of dried areas.

I realise that any use of antioxidents weakens the polymers in paint film. I've heard some people say that Solvents don't weaken paint film, and then others have said they do. I don't use solvents so not sure how comparable the film strengths would be with a paint film with a small amount of clove oil and one with a solvent.

I know the most archival way is not to use clove oil.. but trying to find the way to work without it is a challenge!

Thank you for the answers, everyone.​

​Thank you both of you for such detailed, informative and useful advice! I truly didn't realise the importance of light in the drying process.. I will try to store the painting in a light and warm place with as much indirect sunlight as possible and see how it goes.

I have a small house with a 3 year old daughter, hence I've been keeping paintings flat high up out of reach.. one of the difficulties of having a young family!


​Interesting Brian.
I have hear speculation that solvent leaves a paint film more porous. I haven't seen any evidence of this, but it would explain better adhesion of following layers.

Thank you for responding.
Something for me to think about. :)


Thanks Brian.
I agree. I am one that doesn't thin with solvent at all, (unless I need to ​loosen the paint for painting thin lines etc, but even then as little as possible), and I wonder how robust the very common 'initial wash' would be as it seems to me that you would be painting on top of loose particles.

But more to the point, as we know, adding too much solvent will cause the pigment to focculate and be underbound. It isn't reasonable in my view that there will be a point where it will become underbound and before that point everything will be fine.
That is, effect will be linear or some sort of curve the more solvent is added.
Is this what you're saying? Basically that adding any solvent will probably effect adhesion to some extent?

Thanks Matthew.
That's the first reasoned argument I've heard that turpentine has a siccitive effect.​

​Yes, that is all true.
But my query wasn't about paint particles flocculating through the addition of too much solvent.
The question is, assuming the particles are still properly bound, is a paint film that has had solvent added at some point, leaner than one that hasn't?
Granted, given an ansorbent ground, the thinner viscosity of the oil could be absorbed into it, thereby leaving the film more lean. Good point.
It is often said that solvent increases the drying time of paint, and this could be equated with being lean I suppose, but I have not seen any evidence of solvent acting as a siccitive.

​Hi Sarah.  All of that is very helpful, and what a prompt reply too!  Thanks a million.  If you garner any more tips I'd loved to hear them.

Best wishes from Koo


​paint making

From; The Chemistry of Paints and Painting, by Arthur H. Church  p114

" It has been observed that White Lead is less liable to be blackened by sulphureted hydrogen and by other sulphides when it contains a small quantity of Baryta White or of Lead Sulphate thouroughly incorporated with it by grinding "

​Thank you, Sarah and Kristin, this is very helpful information. ♡

​paint making

Thank you once again George for your answers. 

I have used Google to find the excact quote I have in my notes but so far the only thing showing verbatum is from a 1928 publication by Certain-teed paints & varnishes. Not the one I was thinking of but here goes; " mixtures of Carbonate White Lead and Sulphate White Lead form a combination which is superior to either one used alone."

This has nothing to do with Artist quality paints but is about coatings.  

  Arthur H. Church in " The Chemistry of Paints and Painting"  p.114   White lead    " it has been observed that White Lead is less liable to be blackened by sulphuretted hydrogen and by other sulphides when it contains a small quantity of lead sulphate"  Not much of a problem anymore I think.  Yet another source mentions that it might be a good idea if it didn`t leave the door open to adulteration.        One solution for me might be to split my next  batch into half and finish one half with the sulfate added back in, the other half straight carbonate and see if I can even notice a difference.

Thank you.

​​Thanks so much for these technical perspectives on my question, Brian and Sarah.

Interjecting a question here about the use of Clear Gesso...am I understanding right that using a layer of Clear Gesso between an acrylic underpainting and further oil paint layers is a good practice to insure long-term adhesion? Thanks so much for the clarification!

I was curious about both, but didn't know how they differed. I work in acrylics and have recently introduced applying different media on top of it​.  I always worry about whether oily media will adhere to the acrylic over time, and if I can do something to encourage that to happen. It's good to hear oil will adhere to the acrylic. I didn't think that was the case.

My question about the cold wax was not clear, apologies. I am looking at it as an encaustic medium, to be applied over acrylic paint. This is where I would apply the clear gesso, between the acrylic painted surface and the wax medium.  The ideal would be traditional encaustic, but I work and live in a small space.  My confusion comes with so many conflicting views on how to use cold wax. My impulse would be to use layers of mostly wax and very little pigment, but some sources make it sound like you need to add Galkyd and/or various other gels to that mixture in order to make it stand up to time. 

I just hate finding out too late that a piece I love will not stand up to time. I come from a background of using many non traditional materials, and am pretty familiar to mistaken assumptions about what is compatable over time. Thank you for your response.


​Glass is out then! Thank you so much for your help.

So the steps so far would be:

1. Prime a wood panel with RSG (how many coats would you recommend?)

2. Apply a RSG gesso (how many layers is preference I understand?)

3. Apply bole (unless I want the white to show through?) to gilded areas

4. Gild/Burnish certain areas

5. Apply a fatty layer of imprimatura to cut the absorbency for the oil painted portion

6. once fully cured/dried apply a varnish (can Gamvar be used over Gilding & Gesso?)

A few other questions:

If I prepared a panel with just RSG and then only applied bole or gesso to the gilded areas could I safely oil paint directly on the RSG-only areas of the panel?


Is oil painting on glass with the addition of gold an option at all? Does oil paint adhere well to glass? 

​Brian, I really appreciate you taking the time to respond to my questions. I have been advised that Natural Pigments  Tempera Ground would be an appropriate ground to use with both these techniques. Would you agree with that? I intended to prepare a panel with it and use bole only in the gilded areas. 

Perhaps I'm confused but I don't think you quite answered my question. What ground is appropriate for both burnished gilding and oil painting? 

Can I prepare a traditional gesso ground and apply bole to juse the parts with gilding? Is traditional gesso archival for oil painting? 

​Thank you, Sarah.

Do I roughen up the board's surface to make tooth before and after applying the BIN Original or just after?


​PS   Any thoughts about introduced ingredients in the pigmented shellac?


Note:

Over the last 20 years or so, I've spent hundreds of hours in workshops, on art materials forums (AMIEN and here), in testing paints, and in art forums discussing to help determine what to use, or not, in paintings.

I don't want to get carried away with permanence, as I usually do, but am being responsible and professional about producing a reliable "product" that will last , with minimal change, for a century or two, if that is possible.   the customer will not know, but I will.

At the same time, I don't want to drive myself to distraction with complexities, as it will tie me up immeasurably.   Am trying to balance permanence, ease of use, time on task, availability, cost, etc , to find an "elegant" method or solution...simple but effective.


Best advice I've heard on this topic is from a conservator at the Upper Midwest Conservation Laboratory...use the most permanent materials that you LIKE to use, otherwise, you will not want to paint at all.


Thanks for all of your help,

Richard

​Wow, Sarah.   That's really interesting re: the pigmented shellac.    I saw it at the local hardware store yesterday but did not purchase it as I thought that it would introduce added materials whose long term effect would be unknown.  Effective, low tech and readily available. 

Should I thin it down as Brian has suggested?   How many coats?

Its been a while since I shellacked any panels, but I recall that I thinned it with denatured alcohol and applied a couple coats...not enough to create a build up on the surface.

Should I continue to avoid a surface buildup of shellac?

I have some reservations about using xylene as I often must seal in a garage.   I live in MN and the temperature is currently 0 degrees outside.   I think that I can handle the vaporous alcohol better...many memories of using xylene to dry flasks in chemistry classes, decades ago.    Very strong stuff.  

So crystal clear cold pressed oil thats wash might not be as stabel in the long run as a more yellow alkali refined linseed oil.  Likewise the crystal clear cold press oil with darken, like you mention, and also naturally yellow.  So even if it dries clearer than the alkali refined linseed oils in the long run its more unstable as a whole.  

Since I want to grind my pigment ,I simply want :

1. a clear oil ( clear as possible) 

2. a thick oil ( so that I can start painting thick and then make my paint fatter with a leaner oil so that I can then glaze) 

3. a durable oil 

If alkali refined oils are simply better, and  washing and making a clear as water oil is almost pointless because of natural darkening and yellowing, do you simply recommend  me to start with a stand oil and make it more fluid and fatter by adding a alkali refined oil to it?  Could i even temper painting with something like a stand oil or a and alkali refined oil that is sun thicken?   Is stand oil created through boiling and thus i should avoided it because it wont help me reach my goal? 

Sorry for all the questions and thank you for taking your time to look into my post.  

​Thanks Brian, I will try that. Good to know that RSG isn’t suitable for synthetic fabrics. It’s very hard to get any information on working with polyester canvas. On washing and scrubbing out the RSG on the back of the stretched canvases (without detaching them from the stretchers, which hopefully won’t warp) I found, happily,  that a lot of the puckering that had developed on stretching the canvas seemed to disappear. I might have gotten this effect by simply spritzing the back of the canvas heavily with water had I not needed to get the RSG out. Hopefully the puckering won’t come back once the canvas is fully dry! If I’m lucky and it doesn’t reappear, it should make it easier to try out your suggestion. Thanks again, Jenny

​Just thought I'd add that I did buy a tube of Van Dyke Brown Deep from Sennelier that smelled of Turpentine. I contacted the seller who sent it back to Sennelier for testing. They said:

"I thought I'd let you know the results after the Van Dyke Brown Deep was tested- apparently the paint is ok! It contains extra turps because the pigment used in that paint is very fine."

I wasn't really convinced by this but got another colour in return.

Just thought I'd mention it in case you buy a tube of non-alkyd oil paint that smells of solvent.

​I've so appreciated the answers I've been given here, in-depth and from multiple perspectives. Answers I couldn't find anywhere else. Really, really appreciate it, MITRA folks.

​Thank You Too!

thnx Sarah....I had read Marks piece and I will follow his instructions vis a vis aluminum...but I am also looking ot use stainless steel, other kinds of metal and CARDBOARD!!...any thoughts about coating etc..


tnx​

Hi,

Thanks for the responses so far. The soapostone (which I think is a false jade)​ produced the absolute finest possible dust. It is beautifully silky, with no feeling of particulate at all---it is really a powder---and I was trying to figure out what I could do with it to re-purpose it. It was such a lovely piece of stone, and I would like to use all of it in some way if I can. If you think it would not be a good ingredient for gesso, for the purposes of oil painting, do you think I could safely use it to make a silverpoint ground? If not, are there other uses?

Thanks,

Jennifer

 

​Really appreciate this in-depth answer to my question, Matthew and Brian.  ♡

​Returning to the topic of pH neutral PVA glue as a size for cotton paper, on which one wishes to oil paint,  my understanding is that canvas manufacturers have been using it in the production of linen and cotton canvases, a replacement for the more hygroscopic, rabbet skin glue.

If pH neutral PVA size is an inadequate barrier to oil migration over the long term, as suggested earlier, then are modern linen and cotton canvases suspect in their permanence?

I'm using the pH neutral PVA size because it has been the size of choice for the manufacture of linen canvas.   The clarity of it, in relation to arcylic dispersion mediums, (which I use for adhering paper or canvas to panel) would be immaterial as an oil paint layer would be painted on top.

Am I missing something here?

If the permanence of commercially produced oil papers are still an unknown, then I would like to know if what I am doing is particularly inapproriate for the use of studies that may eventually be sold.   

 I use mounted, linen canvas or acrylic primed panel for anything that I intend to sell, but want even my studies to be reasonably permanent as well, in the event that they should be mounted and sold.   Sized paper has come to be my preferred support, even more than linen, but priming it with acryllic primer may really kill the texture and absorbancy of it. 


Thanks for your thoughts.

​Hi...I just joined and have a similar question but for different reasons...I am working on doing “Calder like” mobiles using materials other than metal.  I have been thinking of cardboard because I can use a laser to cut templates easily and in large quantities.  A laser that cuts metal is not so ez to find.  I could cut acrylic on the laser but it’s not nearly as light and inexpensive/ versatile to cut.  I could spray paint the pieces but I would like to use an acrylic paint and do it by hand .

Any thoughts?


Thx 

​Well, I suppose the logical thing to do with a cotton oil paper is to paint on some samples and see if the oil bleeds through.   Don't know how to evaluate the strength of the  mechanical bond of the paint layer to the paper or correctly appraise its strength in comparison to my current method.


I gather that no one yet sees a definitive problem with commercial oil papers, the oil papers being so recent.   Correct?


Oddly enough, I was reading A P Laurie's, The Painter's Methods and Materials, 1926, in which he describes Jan Van Eyke's method of painting in the early to mid 15th C.   It seems that he painted cool colors directly onto the gessoed panel in certain areas, sized it with distemper to make it non-absorbent, and them painted oils over the top.   The coolness of the underlying tempera counteracted the increased warmth and transparency of the oils over time, making the painting appear "fresh" longer.   

The take away here is that the oils bonded to the  non-absorbent distemper for so many years.   An absorbent tempera surface would have soaked up the oil paint, creating a poor effect, according to Laurie.   Painting on a "sized" (distempered) surface was not lost on me and my efforts.

​Normally, I put two coats of size onto the working surface of my 140 lb, cotton, wc papers, allowing the coats to dry in between.   Each coat is 25% pH neutral PVA glue and 75% water, per Robert Gamblin.   This makes a perfect surface for me, oil proof, but no more, to allow as much tooth as possible for the paint layer to mechanically bond to.   I know that the oil does not come through because I would see it seep through on the back side, if it did, after I have painted on it.

My interest is in trying some of the commercially made oil papers which, according to the literature, are sized internally.   Each fiber is protected from the ill effects of oil, but the entire paper structure must be otherwise porous to allow oil to enter the paper structure (not touching the individual fibers) and eventually form a strong, mechanical bond when dry.   

My oil sizing was primarily on the surface of the paper, not so with the commercial oil papers.  While they are more "absorbent", I was wondering if they may provide a better mechanical bond with the paint layer than I can currently get by performing my own sizing, or if there was any problem with them that artists or conservators may have noticed or anticipated.     

Is the same true for egg tempera; i.e. that graphite on top of gesso cannot travel up through the paint film once the egg tempera layers have polymerized?  

Thanks, Koo Schadler

​When grinding your own colors, paste consistency on the slab is not always a good guide to make your final paint as intended. I work with a natural green earth which gain consistency; the more I grind the paste, the stiffer it becomes,  and more viscous. Real viridian (the one we call "vert émeraude" here in France) behaves exactly at the opposite : I make a stiff paste, and when I grind under the muller, it becomes more fluid and runny.

Another issue in OA tables published in the literature is the normal procedure for the test. Usually it is the Gardner Coleman spatula rub-out. With this method, the paste is not ground. It only undergoes a few minutes working with the spatula, which can give a very different OA figure. 

​Thank you, Brian...this is what I suspected. Most unfortunate, as this is a well-known and widely-sold brand of stretched canvas.

​Thanks Kristin, yes it's the surface topography that I would like to see. My expectation, based on the correlation of sinking in with pigrment grain size, is that a sunken in surface will be uneven due to protrusion of pigment grains. Thanks for explaining why this sort of image is so rare!

​Sarah I understand that the strikethrough occurs on a single coat of size, applied to a stretched linen canvas because of lack of protection to the back side of the canvas. So for instance, if the canvas is attached to a substrate, with PVA glue, one coat of size will be sufficient as the PVA glue is providing the protection to the back side of the canvas. Likewise, one coat of PVA size, applied to both sides of a stretched canvas, will isolate and protect the canvas from oil strikethroughs.

​I am conducting my own test on the Gamblin PVA Size with the Williamsburg Lead Oil Ground on Claessen 13 linen canvas.  These are the products I have adopted in my practice.  My results may not be worth the paper they are written on, and will make no claim of any kind, other than at least I'll know 'for me.'

  

Hi Sarah, 

I very much appreciate your reply and I want you to know that my intention for posting this question was none other than understanding.  

I use a lot of products made by Gamblin, Golden and Williamsburg, and I am a very happy customer.  I trust what the technical support people recommend and say about their products. 

I was not aware of your tests, and their interpretation is (from what I gather from your reply), not within my scope of competence.  But I have to believe what other experts say, so when I read this, and saw the chart, I made my conclusion:

George O'Hanlon Group Admin You can use lead oil ground over a PVA size. One thing to note that studies by Golden Artists Colors demonstrated that PVA size may not provide adequate stiffness and oil blocking for the oil ground on canvas. With two coats it did not provide adequate oil blocking and stiffness. 

​Thanks, Brian-- I am always curious to learn about the peculiarities of the different pigments so I appreciate your pointing that out.

​Thank you, Sarah! That is all very helpful. Your articles are fascinating and loaded with great information.

Thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge, and keep up the great work!

Bob

Thanks Sarah.
Thinking more on my habits, I forgot that I usually spend a couple of days drafting with pencil prior to painting, so in reality, I think it would be at least 3 days before​ oil touched the acrylic primer.

I always appreciate your advice.
Ron Francis.

​Thanks, Brian. Much appreciated.

​Thank you, Brian and Matthew, for these answers from a well-rounded perspective of "it depends." Ah, for a crystal ball! Pretty much the answers I suspected, though not what I would have hoped for. Having never seen a Cy Twombly painting in person, could I assume that he used graphite into a thicker base of oil paint (thus ensuring integration), or just that his work has had very careful conservators...?

I've used several of Groves' mediums, for a short time. Never could get them to gel, tho they did get kinda puffy. None of them actually produced magic or romance.

I keep it simple now, with better results.
Richard Murdock​

​What are the potential problems if painting oils onto an acrylic ground too early?
Particularly if the canvas is on stretchers and the water can evaporate from the back.

Over the last 40 years or so, I have typically only waited 24 to 48 hours after the final coat of acrylic ground.
(Note that I don't size the canvas with anything else.)

​Cheers!

​Were the results published Brian?

​George, Sarah and Brian, ... thank you very much.

Thanks Brian.
George O'Hanlon (Natural Pigments) is not aware of any studies that support the claim that cold pressed is mechanically superior.​
He also says that paint gets most of its strength from metal ions from pigments and not neccessarily due to the oil refinement.

​Thank you for covering all aspects of this question, Brian. I think I've got everything I need now. Best, Susan

​Thanks everyone. Best regards

​Thank you so much for this in-depth answer to my question, Brian. I am still a little unclear about whether one can go straight to oil paints (without an oil ground) on a shellac-sized panel? These are marine-grade panels, so I'm assuming they are high-quality. Thank you for this last piece of information!

​Brian, what would you recommend using to speed up the drying of initial layers of paint?  I don't want to use alkyd based paints and it doesn't look like using them there would be a good idea. 

​Good info, George--thanks! 

I did a few more test sheets, and also tested out your tube lead white #1, in linseed oil, and that did not turn green at all. The fact that the paste lead ground didn't turn green suggests that calcite is not to blame. I wonder if driers could be acting as a catalyst for corrosion? Your regular lead ground has driers added, but I don't think your paste ground and lead alkyd ground do, right? None of my other still-white test samples contain driers.

-Ben

​I've done a lot of oil glazing over egg tempera.  My experience is that oil mediums dry more slowly atop egg tempera and traditional gesso; I've seen drying times double or triple (compared to how the same oil glaze dries over an oil underpainting and ground).  My thinking is that the high PVC (pigment volume concentrate) and porous surface of egg tempera and traditional gesso allow the oil medium to sink in, making it less well exposed to oxygen, making it slower to cure.  I don't know if this is correct, but so far it is the only reason I can think of to explain the consistently (at least, for me) slower drying rates of oil glazes over pure egg tempera.

If this is holds true for you, I can think of two possible solutions.

1. Give the egg tempera time to polymerize (3 months or more), then polish the surface a bit to cut back on the porosity/absorbency.  I've found that oil glazes (and varnishes) sit much better (i.e. there is much less sinking in) a top a cured and slightly polished egg tempera than on freshly painted tempera.  

2. Apply a isolating layer over the tempera before moving onto oil.  There are many possibilities for isolators (which I've talked about in another post: https://www.artcons.udel.edu/mitra/forums/question?QID=151).  There are pros and cons; it's not a settled issue how best to isolate egg tempera - but in my 25 years of experience (which I appreciate isn't long in the conservation world) I have the most success with a very thin layer (1 part shellac to 6 or 8 parts solvent) of bleached, platina, de-waxed shellac.  

If any of the above is applicable to you, or helps with your method, I'd be most interested in hearing about it. 

Koo Schadler

​If I used stand oil or sun oil with turps, what would be the proportions of medium to paint you would recommend, so that I know I am not making the paint too thin?  I find 1/1 is a bit too much but that does give the paint the kind of flow I would like. Thank you.

​Thanks for the recommendations.  I am wondering if you could share the Alkyd medium you mentioned.  I have little experience with Alkyds, and as far I can see from reading manufacturers' descriptions and artists' experience with the media (Gamblin,W&N, M.Graham) none I have looked at so far, claim to provide or produce the paint qualities needed for fine detail work, which I think would be in the line of:  ink like paint consistency, with paint flowing off the brush with relative ease, yet the paint is still highly pigmented to the percentage of vehicle that it covers, and finally the paint holds its shape, without levelling or bleeding.  

​Thank you so much for that in-depth and speedy answer to my question, Sarah, and for clarification of the 3 days vs 2 weeks info which I had already found on the Golden site. I was not aware that acrylic gesso "cured" (like oil-based paints and primers), so this is very helpful information too. Best, Susan 

​Kristin, that looks like a great resource. I'm off to purchase a copy. Thanks!

​The comment above was posted by Dana Brown at Ampersand Art Supply. I mistakenly posted it before signing it.   

Dana Brown | Ampersand Art Supply

Ampersand seals the face of our panels before adding our specialty grounds, such as our Claybord coating, because all raw wood (including our Hardbord) contains acidic materials.  Our seal creates a barrier layer that prevents acid migration into the ground and paint layers, making the painting surface acid-free. If you painted an "X" with titanium white, directly onto the (exposed and unsealed) back of the panel, then you painted with acrylics directly onto the raw wood, which would allow the acids to discolor the paint. When sealing wood for painting, GAC 100 will work well to block the acids in wood, and can be used on the back of our wooden panels to seal that surface if you choose to do so. The back side of our panels is not the intended painting surface and has not been sealed as a part of their construction. Again, the painting surface has been sealed before priming and is acid-free, but the panel back is still exposed, raw wood. 

​The other finish that seems to work well is boiled linseed oil (I've specifically used a product called Tru Oil, which is marketed as a finish for gunstocks). Again, this is just for the back and sides of the panel--I know that boiled oils formulated as furniture finishes are going to have a strong tendency to darken, but as a coating for the back side of a panel, this seems like less of an issue. The advantages are that it really soaks into the hardboard (especially on the edges, which helps to strengthen it), it dries fast enough to apply several thin coats in a day, and it doesn't induce any warping of the panel at all (which water-based coatings can sometimes do). 

It's still not as fast as GAC, though. I can seal the back and sides of a panel with several coats of GAC, and then also put the first coat of oil primer on the front in the same day. 

​It does--thanks! I'll give the GAC 200/500 combo a try. 

Here is a comment from a "Painting Best Practices" member.
It sounds reasonable to a non-chemist, but his hypothesis relies on the truth of the first sentence.
Anyone here able to comment on this?

"There is no evidence that gaseous vapors, in this case eugenol vapors, have the ability to penetrate viscous solids such as oil paint. Rather, a mono layer of eugenol molecules adhere to the outer surface of the paint piles, effectively creating a barrier to the normal process of oxidation by oxygen molecules. This minute quantity of eugenol is insufficient to have any deleterious effect on the polymeric adhesion properties of the mass of paint in the pile in a closed palette. So, logic and science indicates it is safe to use to extend paint life. This, all of course, referring to a few drops of oil in the closed palette, NOT mixed into the paint.​"

​Update: So I re-tested the two primers that had turned green to varying extents on two more of the same copper sheets--same prep method, except this time I also rubbed them with garlic, and then allowed that to dry (since I'm still pretty sure that trapping water underneath the primer layer is a bad idea). And on the garlic-rubbed copper, neither of those primers turned green. Like, at all. Interesting...

​Okay, a friend suggested an interesting hypothesis: the garlic step in copper panel prep might have been to prevent the primer layer from turning green. Because apparently, raw garlic contains sulfur compounds that react with copper to form blue-green copper sulfate. This seems to correlate with cross-section analyses showing a "vivid green layer between the metal and the ground." 

So it is possible that the purpose of coating the panel with garlic juice was to force a reaction prior to applying a layer of lead white, thus preserving the white color of the ground. 

-Ben




​Regarding green-tinged primer: I've read a couple of papers on the conservation of specific paintings on copper that report finding a vivid green layer between the ground and the support. Also this passage, in the Getty's publication "Copper and Bronze in Art: Corrosion, Colorants, Conservation"... 

"A vivid green layer, undoubtably due to the formation of copper organometallics, can sometimes be seen between a painting's copper support and ground, according to Horovitz (1986). Experiments by Horovitz with copper strips coated with linseed, poppy, and nut oils showed that after periods ranging from 24 hours to ten days, all samples developed a greenish tinge. Graff (1972) has suggested that this corrosion might even aid retention of the paint layers." 

So, apparently not unusual.

-Ben

​This probably sounds naive after this discussion but I thought I heard from a reputable source that you can slightly abrade the surface of the copper plate with a fine grit sandpaper (such as 360 or slightly higher), clean with isopropyl alcohol, and then begin painting with oils. When your painting is complete, then you varnish it with any suitable varnish made for oils and the varnish will keep the copper from turning green.  Is this approach incorrect? I haven't tried it. 

​Brian--thanks! That one primer sample that turned green (the Rublev lead ground) was odd. Like I said, it was on the same piece of copper as my test swatch of the RGH lead ground, and while the Rublev ground changed color dramatically, the RGH did not change color at all. I know they have considerably different composition; the RGH primer is just PW1 in alkalai refined linseed oil, and that's it. The Rublev primer is a more complex mixture: PW1 with some PW6 added for opacity, plus some calcium carbonate for tooth, some quantity of bodied oil to help with leveling, and a blend of cobalt, zirconium and calcium driers. The fact that one primer turned green and the other didn't suggests that it must be something in the primer, and not the copper plate, per se. Here's a photo of that test plate:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4558/38240078332_116e1f98da_b.jpg

And this is the plate on which I'm testing the W&N primer, just for comparison's sake. I've put a second coat on, as I intend to sand it, but you can see the first coat peeking out at the edges. Only the first coat picked up a green tint, and it's so slight that you wouldn't even notice if you didn't have the second coat for comparison. 

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4519/38240079382_04867d4fdc_b.jpg

Sarah: 

I've used Dibond in the past, actually. There are a few reasons why I stopped using it. The main one is that, while I've never seen paint spontaneously delaminate from the surface, adhesion results on my long-term test panels (about ten years old now) have been... not great. I tested many different primers (oil and acrylic), which adhered well enough to pass cross-hatch adhesion tests. But paint adhesion on these panels seems to be generally poor, on all types of primer. It's often possible to scrape paint layers off completely using a fingernail, which is not something I've encountered using the same primers on other rigid supports. Like I said, no spontaneous delamination, but I still felt that paintings on this substrate were too fragile for my comfort. 

Re: copper: I'll read the paper that you linked. I'm aware that very old paintings on copper are not without issues, but the same can be said for paintings on any type of support. At the same time, paintings on copper that are in good condition tend to be some of the most amazingly preserved old paintings in collections today. I've seen numerous copper paintings from the sixteenth century that look like they could have been painted yesterday. 

I also have a few painter friends that work on copper, so it's one of those things that I've always wanted to try out. One friend in particular, who has been painting on copper for many years, notes that paint adhesion, at least in the short term, is amazingly good. He related that he has reclaimed copper plates that he had previously painted, and it is always very difficult to get the paint off, even with an orbital sander. I know that's not necessarily indicative of long term performance (especially in the very long term), but it already puts them above aluminum composite panels, which in my experience suffer from generally mediocre adhesion even in the short term. 

I'm not particularly interested in letting the metal show through my paintings--I prefer to work on a white ground. My interest in copper is mainly related to its structural properties. 

Thanks for the tip on Incralac--I'll have to try that out. 

I apologise for being ambiguous. I did use the "Drying Oils" and "Oil Paint" tags but forgot to mention it in my text.
Yes, I meant isolating varnishes between layers of paint.
Your response was ​exactly what I was after.
Thanks Brian.

​This educated feedback is much appreciated, MITRA folks. It is all pretty much as I suspected, but good to have it affirmed by professionals (and tests!) Best, Susan

​Thank you for your answer, I will wait till someone may answer.

​Hi Abbie,

I have just finished my copy of The Girl with the Pearl Earring (a bit smaller than the original at around 12" x 14"), and wet in wet - one layer. You said you would like to see a picture and this is the best photo I can get without a professional camera and lighting:

final1.jpg


​Whoops, the above comment should have gone to my question in the "drying oils" section.  Sorry.

Thank you, Brian.

I am experimenting with an good quality acrylic dispersion primer on 1/4" dibond and on a 10mm,  "waffle" core aluminum panel to see if I like the texture and feel of it.

I follow the directions, ie remove the plastic film, scuff sand the dibond, clean with alcohol, etc, but if the adherance of the oil paint layer to the acrylic dispersion primer​ is just as permanent as the same on an oil primer, then I see no advantage to using an oil primer.   Waiting a couple weeks for the acrylic dispersion primer to cure is  preferrable to waiting six months.   ( In training, I was told to wait 9 months to a year.)

Sound logical?

​​Thank you for sharing this research with me, and for doing it! 

On a related note, does the use of the Infinity logo on this paper that I believe corresponds to an acid free ISO 9706 suggest that this paper is a good choice for an artist's material with a long life?  

In general I have cometo trust Arches in this respect, and I know that permanence and archivality are problematic concepts, but don't know how to phrase this otherwise..

Ciao

​Thanks for the continued insight. I have contacted Arches as well for any more information. I also noticed the papers resilience to being 'stained' by oil like paper usually does, and have watched pure linseed oil just roll off the surface, which makes me more confident there won't be deterioation problems, perhaps adhesion is of more concern, but oil paint seems to adhere in the short term...

​WOW! Thank you so much for all of your help! I have so much research to do! I'll let you know how everything goes!

​I've worked on Arches Huile to a limited extent. It is absorbent, in the sense that the first layer of paint will sink into the paper and dry fairly matte. I've never seen oil soak all the way through the paper, though, even with heavy application--no oil stains on the back. If you want the paint to sit more on the surface, a single thin coat of PVA size will accomplish that. 


-Ben



​Thank you so much, Kristin. I'm more used to oil but in this case it sounds like it may be a better approach with acrylics than oil and it's going to be washy anyway which makes even more sense. Thank you so much for the link on fixatives too and yes, I'll spray it. Then if done on paper I'd frame it under glass I assume. 

​Thank you for your feedback. Frustrating that this information isn't more transparent, but interesting that you saw it is cotton based- and I agree with your sentiment about absorbtion. Now I'm skeptical to use it as carefree as I had been.


​Thank you for your perspective, Matthew...I will ponder this helpful and positive feedback. Best, Susan

​​PS - The finish on my egg temperas is very smooth.  I tell students this is merely personal preference, not requisite to the medium, that a rough tempera surface is perfectly acceptable.  As an example I point to Wyeth and say "his paintings are full of texture" and then, in jest, I'd add, "probably have a dog hair or two stuck in them".  Now I can say, truthfully, that there may be a leaf, mud, and perhaps a bit of squirrel blood.  Who'd have guessed!

​I know you've written many articles about Wyeth, but please (in your spare time.. ;-) write a book, Joyce - these stories are a treasure.  I had a big smile on my face reading them.  Thanks for your illuminating and generous response.   Koo

​Thank you, I found the book and read through your section. I see what a challenge his work presents to a conservator! It was very helpful. Thank you for the recommendation. 

​Thanks for your response, Matthew.  I found Disponil much more effective with certain, especially difficult-to-disperse colors (i.e. the quinacridones; and alizarin crimson, when I used to use it, don't anymore).  Alcohol seems to work rather slowly for especially fine sized, lightweight colors.  So I'd like to get my hands on more disponil, but if not possible I'm hopeful Golden's Dispersant is suitable for ET.  

​Thanks for your responses.  The artist who told me that Wyeth worked on caesin gesso referenced that 1942 Amer. Artist article. The article could be correct, but isn't necessarily so, yes?  My sense (correct me if you think otherwise) is that artists and artists' magazines weren't (sometimes still aren't) always attentive or careful in describing materials and working methods.  I'm not saying Wyeth never used caesin gesso, only that it would be helpful to have additional sources and more information (did he use it once, several times, often?).

I would think caesin gesso too vulnerable to wetting and lifitng ('til the caesin polymers have cured) to be well-suited to egg tempera.  I would also think it not as strong as an animal gue and chalk gesso.  But I've never tried it. I'm curious if others have, and what they think.  (I did try Sinopia's Caesin Gesso, advertised as suitable for egg tempera, but it contains oil and I found it not at all friendly to egg tempera).  

Joyce, thanks so much for sharing your knowledge of the Wyeths, invaluable to those of us who love both egg tempera and Wyeth artwork.  My impression, from reading various books and writings, and talking with a few people who knew A. Wyeth, is that, how to put it, he didn't completely attend to "best practices" in egg tempera.  I don't know if this is true, and by wondering this I don't mean in any way to question his brilliance as an egg tempera painter (he was a magician) or his greatness as an artist in general.  I'm, as you know, just trying to understand egg tempera more fully, and figure out the best working practices for the medium (not because I think every artist must attend to best practices, only that a tempera artist should have the option). People so revere (rightly) Wyeth as an artist that sometimes they presume they must exactly follow Wyeth as a paint technician - for example, a student of mine read Wyeth painted on caesin gesso and right now she's busy making caesin panels.  

So, my questions are:

1. Do you know to what extent, if any at all, Wyeth's methods deviated from "best practices" (to the extent they are understood) for egg tempera?  

2.  As for caesin gesso, what do you (or anyone else) think about it as a ground for egg tempera?

Thanks, 

Koo

​Does "acrylic pumice" mean that there is stone pumice in an arcylic medium, or that the grit is made from acrylics and placed into an acrylic medium?

Assuming that the acrylic pumice in the medium is different from ground pumice, is it also hard on brushes?

If the acrylic pumice is hard on brushes, would I be better off with the fine or coarser acrylic pumice medium to minimize excess brush wear?

Would rottenstone work any better to minimize brush wear?  I understand that it is finer than the pumices.  Both can be purchased in woodworking stores.

All I need is a little more tooth in the painting surface so that the paint comes off the brush better.


Thanks for your thoughts.

​Thnak you.  I do tend to avoid thick paint.

I just had an 11 year old sketch in my hands and could bend it around without any delamination or cracking.

If there was to be a failure in the adhesion of the paint layer to the PVA size, when would it show up?   5 years? 10 years?  More?

​Would marble dust be preferrable to pumice or rottenstone to create tooth in an acrylic primed panel??

​Thanks Sarah--very helpful! 

​Thanks Brian! 

​no, there are no varnish layers underneath the ink.  I agree it wouldnt be a bad idea to do a test, though I no longer have the precise pen I could find one.

​Thanks, that clears up a lot. I'll stick with the panels for now.

However, I did read this the other day. If you have time I'd be interested in what you think/if you've seen this done before. Under section D, there's a design for a cost effective variation on panel back stretchers that artists/conservators could easily make. I think for my purposes, it might be possible to do it with 1/4" plywood and a small addition to the design.

http://www.conservation-wiki.com/wiki/PSG_Stretchers_and_Strainers_-_IV._Treatment_Variations

Yeah, thanks. I think the ideal situation would be a keyable panel stretcher or something like it.

So even though strainers are not ideal, a rigid panel strainer or a cradled panel with canvas stretched over (I'm guessing they amount to the effect) generally ages better than a painting on a keyable stretcher?  

My paintings can get heavy with layers and sag a bit in the middle so I thought not being able to key out might be an issue down the road. It would be relief if you said otherwise.

Would it be more beneficial to adhere the canvas to the panel?

​Ahh, I didn't know that. Thank you Ben!

Sorry, I don't think I was clear. I meant that prior to painting, an artist will cut foam core to size and lay it into the stretcher bars from the front, as a kind of partially floating panel insert. Maybe it's attached to the cross bars only. Then they will stretch canvas over the top and the canvas rests on the foam core or close to it. Then they paint. I know people who do this with gatorboard as well (maybe coroplast could work too?).



Sorry, I just saw the answer to the first question.

Wow, that's such a great idea, thanks! How would I go about securing the coroplast to the aluminum or wood stretcher so it could still be removed?

I know some artists who simply place foam core in the stretcher bars and stretch canvas over the top. What are your thoughts on this? 

​Genuine ultramarine made from lapis tends to lean a bit more towards green in oils than synthetic ultramarine. This is mostly because it has a much lower tinting strength, so to color of the binding oil (yellow) has more of an effect on the color of the paint. 

https://artrelatedblog.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/bluecompare1.jpg?w=656


-Ben

​Read the cited information again...

Has anyone tried painting on the bonded primers?  Any problems with adhesion between paint layer and bonded primer?

Introducing this bonded primer(s) adds a new variable that likely has no long history to it.   Would I be advised to stick to the  familar acrylic primer?  I don't want to get into the unkown any farther.   My paintings are strictly to be used indoors. 

Adding permanence to a painting gets complicated.   Using new materials avoids past permanence problems but adds new, unknown variables.

​Thank you, Kristin.

It occurred to me that a conservator on Mark Gottsegen's forum, a few years ago, recommended using acrylic primer (usually called "gesso") on a sanded and cleaned dibond panel, over any other primer.   If I recall correctly, it had to do with the coefficient of expansion of the two materials being similar, or something a kin to this.   Perhaps other water based products  like acrylic dispersion medium will be equally as successful on dibond, but I don't know and want to see if I am getting into any problems.

I primed a dibond panel back then and will be trying it out again as a suitable painting surface, but in the meantime, had produced four, detailed landscape studies on paper, not intending to use them.  I changed my mind and am now searching for guidance regarding the mounting of them on dibond.   Have not done this before on dibond with finished studies that are worth saving as paintings.

Any anticipated problems?

​Firstly, thank you for posting Abbie's answer. :)

Abbie, thank you for your detailed reply. That's very useful and thank you also for the references to the Vermeer Studies book and your Second Canvas App.

Your research project sounds very interesting. Is there any more information I could read about it on your website?

Hopefully if all goes well I will post the completed image here for you. I work from dark to light in one layer and so it would look a bit strange until it's done!


​That would be great Brian, thank you!

I have a DELL UltraSharp monitor which has been colour calibrated at the factory so it should be reasonably accurate.

​rigid supports

​I would like to mount some 10" x 20", oil studies on pH neutral PVA sized, 140 lb wc paper onto 4 mm dibond using acrylic dispersion medium.   I suspect that this is not optimal, but wish to frame the studies.


Any suggestions?


Have done the same on gatorfoam, in  smaller sizes, without problem in the past.   The wc paper is stiffer than linen and doesn't seem to buckle or bubble in these small sizes, unlike linen.


Read the pertinent posts and information in the resources section, but it did not specifically address finished oil studies, on paper, being mounted onto dibond, hence the above question.   As dibond is not absorbant, coating both sides of the panel should not be necessary, correct?


Thanks for your help.

​Funny, I just read an article today that the others mention on Golden's newsletter.  In the article they recomend using isopropyl alcohol, but in the comments about the article artists make all sorts of suggestions I this topic.  It is a great article! http://www.justpaint.org/understanding-the-techniques-of-pouring-acrylics/

​Thank you Brian for combing through my questions so carefully, that was very helpful! Most especially to hear that I am not deemed as crazy for trying to diulte oil paint to the extent of pouring it. That's been a big anxiety of mine! Now that it just about finding the right ratio, I can move forward more confidently. 

So just to clarify- you think that (winsor and newtons) dying poppy oil, and a fast drying alkyd like liquin, are both as likely to darken/yellow over time, but that the alkyd will probably make a stronger paint film - so that's why you'd probably use it instead of the drying oil? 

Also do you think I should stick to using Titanium white then, if I am using large quanities and want it to have the least chance of yellowing? Do I need to be looking for one that is bound with a ligher oil than linseed and has no zinc in it? There are so many kinds out there, is it worth going for something like Holbein's quick drying white, which is supposed to be good for underlayers but maybe its ok as the main layer too? or Holbein's ceramic white? Although its supposed to be slower drying which might not be good. 

I would do some tests with different concentrations of added alkyd on scraps of canvas or panel to find a happy medium between paint that is not too fat which would yellow and one which is underbound.'

This is exaclty what I am starting to do now, a controlled test that I should have done years ago..trying differnt ratios out. 

My only concern is being able to tell when a paint film is underbound or too fat... If the results I get, in the short term seem bound- I can scratch them and the paint will not come off!... I suppose I still can not guarantee that in the long term they will stay that way? I have huge worries about them suddenly peeling off one day.. is that completely unlikely if they seem so strong now? I think I can live with darknening/yellowing but chalking off terrifies me obviously. 

Essentially I am wondering how to proceed with selling works that I have not proved the stability of, beyond a couple of years. Can i ethically sell them, do you think? Or is that uncertainty just something that comes hand in hand with buying oil paintings (especially of an experimental nature)?. I know you're not a lawyer, but your personal opinion, as a conservation expert, would be gratefully recieved.

Also, sorry,  one other question you didnt really answer is:

 if a painting has significantly sunk in (hopefully I can stop this happening in future), is it ok to- once primarily dry, spray it with a couple of thin coats of retouching varnish and eventually a couple of thin coats of varnish. I assume if it is really sunk in it will bond with the varnish.. perhaps this is what will darken the painting significantly, if the varnish is bonding with the paint film itself? But I cant think about how else to protect the works. Normally, on top of a non sunk in painting, varnish still always carries a risk of darkening/yellowing, right? Even if it is winsor and newton and it states 'non yellowing'.. 

Thank you again for your time! 



​I haven't tried adding an alkyd - I'll experiment and let you know how it works.  Thanks, Koo

​I was just reading this article today. I suspect that many years in the future all pigments used in artwork will be structural colours:

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/tiny-supraballs-put-new-spin-creating-long-lasting-color

​Thank you, Kristin. I myself had a large (sold) painting on canvas with a first layer of a zinc white mix that started to delaminate in multiple places after five or six years. I was both relieved and distressed to read here on MITRA that zinc was most likely the cause as everything else under my control had been up to par. I am being very careful around the zinc issue now...!

​Thanks, Kristin.

Thanks a lot, that cleared everything up!​

​Kristin, you mention "efflorescence" as a possibility between two different acrylics, and I'm wondering if that might have happened in another troubling instance of gessoing a support. (I queried this topic in the Forums under Cat Sprayed panels.) I wondered if the five panels I'd gessoed had been "cat sprayed" while daytime drying outside: the strong surface smell from the ArtBoards Gesso (a very absorbant gesso) over two coats of Golden's GAC100 size was, from the first gesso coat to the fourth and final, a very strong cat-urine sort of smell (not your usual drying acrylic ammonia sort of smell), which has hardly diminished at all in a month and a half of drying. I've never had this problem with that brand of gesso (a new jar), and the back of the panels which were also sized, then primed with Golden's own acrylic gesso (which I had on hand) does not smell that way. Or at least, it did NOT smell that way for a month and a half until I stacked all of the boards and put them in a corner out of frustration. The odorous front-side gesso surface has now transferred its odor to the backsides too. Whatever's going on, I fear these pricey and labored-over panels are, alas, garbage-bound...

​Thank you for these in-depth and helpful answers, Sarah and Kristin. I will definitely rest easier now...

Thank you, Sarah, that cleared up a lot. There's still two more things I'm not sure about:

  1. Is there a risk of ethylene glycol being released from the substrate and into the paint layers due to breakdown? Or is PET stable enough to undergo practically no degradation in average indoor conditions? (By "average" I mean what you would expect in places like an inhabited house, gallery or museum.)
  2. Are there any risks connected to using PET that has been colored? Or can I assume that the pigments are bound tightly enough to the polymer matrix to not influence the paint layers?

​Excellent! Looks like transparant PETG would work ok then. My only concern is how much it can degrade with UV light, but this would be behind a layer of opaque paint pigment. :)

Thanks, everyone.

Sarah, could you ask Dr. Raghavan about the APET vs PETG vs other types of PET when it comes to painting? I would like to know which are recommended and which ones are to be avoided.

Also, I don't want to use transparent ones, there are opaque sheets that you can buy which (I think) are pigmented during production. Not sure if this makes a difference.​

​Thank you all! Your comments are very helpful and interesting.

I've painted a picture in oils on sanded PETG and adhesion seemed fine. I also tested clear Gesso on PETG and it scrapes off easily if the surface is not sanded. If sanded well though it doesn't come off unless scratched off.

​Interesting coincindence, I've just started using PETG recently.

I've done some reading on it and I believe PETG is a form of Polyester which is used as a substrate for painting. However PETG in clear form can be quickly degraded by UV light which is an issue.

I paint with opaque iron oxide and cadmium pigments and have applied Gamblin varnish which has some UV protection once dry. I'm hoping that as long as displayed outside of direct sunlight (as all paintings should be) then it will be an acceptable protection (although admittedly not as good as other surfaces).

I like the transparent nature which allows me to have an underdrawing and not worry about coverage issues.


​​Thank you for the great suggestions. I will have to pick up some Washi and wheat starch paste for removable adhesive. 

​Thanks Brian. Unfortunately I did use the oiling out as a surface treatment, due to following advice from another source I considered reliable. I should have checked MiTRA first! I only used a very thin layer of linseed oil which I then wiped off after a very short time (about a minute). I had read that if your painting is significantly uneven in terms of glossiness, you need to oil out before applying retouch varnish. I can't paint over the oiling out at this point as the painting is finished. I have learnt my lesson though and certainly won't do that again--based on the information here, not on the immediate results as far as the painting looks-- as it currently looks OK. I realise it may yellow as a result of my mistake. It is on panel however so presumably it's not at risk of the paint film wrinkling as a result of  the oiling out. Im not sure what other bad consequences may ensue. 

I'm hoping I can still apply a suitable retouch varnish? 

​in case anyone is interested, I've received information as to the oils used in the Schmincke Norma Professional Oil paints. They are linseed, safflower and sunflower oils. I was told this by the tech person at Schmincke who I've been emailing. He informed me that the darker colours contain relatively more linseed oil and the lighter colours relatively less. Personally I can't smell a lot of linseed oil in my 2 darker colours--indanthrene blue and a dark alizarin substitute colour. He also assured me that if used thinly, in a classical painting style, there won't be any "drying defects" . Furthermore he insists that any potential darkening or other colour changes caused by any component of the paint would show up in their lightfastness tests, and so far none have. My new concern is efflorescence but I'll start another post for that. 

​I have also used walnut alkyd to reduce the absorbency of Claybord; Brian is correct in saying that very little is needed. I typically wipe a small, even amount across the surface of the panel. You don't want medium pooling on the surface of the panel, but use enough to get an even sheen. Then I let it sit for about three minutes, and then wipe off as much medium as I can using a dry, lint-free cloth. The idea being to allow the medium to soak into the panel (which it will do, since Claybord is absorbent and alkyd medium is very thin), but then remove as much from the surface as possible. When dry, the surface should be matte, with no sheen at all. It should also still be a little bit absorbent (but not so much that you paint will sink in). 

The other method that I've found to be effective for sealing Claybord is to give it a light spray of Lascaux Fixativ, which is Paraloid B-72 resin in solvent. Again, light is the key--you don't want a glossy coating that eliminates all absorbency. 

-Ben

​Thanks for the help here. I did want to avoid a magnet on the front but agree with your suggestion of a simpler approach. My current work around is taping the magnet on the back.

But I am still curious about glue/ adhesive that is removable, perhaps asking this adhesive to also adhere to a magnet is tricky. In a similar manner, I would like to temporarily glue paper and/or canvas supports to additional canvas for a more robust support while hanging on the wall as previously described. 

Are PVA's glues and or gel mediums, removable in this context? 

What adhesive would you recommend for a piece that will be 're-lined' in 2 years (adhering paper to canvas, canvas to canvas, paper to paper.)?

Are there resources I am missing that might cover some of this process?

Mille Grazie

​Hi Sarah,

Thank you for the detailed reply. Much appreciated and very interesting. A shame there are no new pigments out there being tested that fill a gap in the array of ones already available.

For me, I paint in one layer and wet on wet in a realism style. So for this to work well I need opaque pigments. I don't necessary need high chroma colours as most colours in nature are rather muted. This means my palette at the moment are pigments like Titanium White, Iron Oxides (Red, Yellows, Black). They are very opaque, inexpensive and extreemly lightfast. 

When yellow iron oxide is mixed with a super strong tinter like Pthalo Green you can get an opaque green as well. I add to these colours Cadmium Yellow and Red for when higher chromas are neccesary (although in the best brands these are expensive).

I have recently tested PBr24 which is often used as a Naples Yellow replacement. In the more expensive brands it's very opaque, but more of a warm orange than a yellow.

At the moment I wish there was a pigment that's lighter and yellower than PY42 (or PBr24) but cheap and opaque (Doesn't have to be as high chroma as a Cadmium). There is PY53 Nickel Titanate but it seems expensive and a bit greyish-white.

I guess we really could do with a Pthalo Yellow :D


​Gamvar it is! thank you Kristin

​Hi Kristin. I am refering to Kremer´s Copper resinate. Contains colophony, copper. For green glazes.​ hope this helps

Jaime

​Koo, I want to add to this discussion in hopes that other tempera painters will do like-wise. I am still learning and subjects like this are ones I would like to master so that these types of problems do not hinder the creative process. That part is hard enough.

I am learning that the application of a watery wash (or application of a water-thinned stroke) takes a good bit of practice as to when, where (in the painting), how much, and even what brush to use in order for it to be successful. Some brushes, like a soft, sable filbert can lay down a nice smooth water-thinned stroke if used in a flat technique, but can cut through underlying layers of paint and cause lifting effect if turned on edge as if you were laying down a thin line. A lot of the outcome seems to be dependent on how long the underlying layers have been allowed to dry. 

And that is my only conclusion after reading this thread. I have found that i need to give my built up layers time to dry adequately before applying any thin watered-down glazing. 

I am also learning that the type of support I am using seems to effect lifting problems. I have used many hardboard panels for paintings, but am now using birch plywood and finding it a bit tougher. I don't experience pin holes near as often and have not had lifting problems like on hardboard. I sealed the plywood with RSG and it seems to provide a more absorbent surface that allows me to be a bit more aggressive without penalty. I can lay down several water-thinned layers during initial block in without problems that I previously experienced. 

Thanks for keeping this forum up to date. Certainly Cennini and students must have wrestled with this kind of problem. Did he write about it?

Jason

Hi Jason,

I don't have definitive answers, just observations and thoughts.  I'm continuing to ask around regarding this topic, trying to learn more, but there's not a lot of people working in tempera or looking at specialized topics within it – so I'm lacking facts or examples.  For now, this is what I can tell you: 

Once you have the proper ratio of yolk to pigment (the paint is correctly tempered) you can, as you note, add considerable amounts of water to thin the paint.  However at some point, with really a LOT of water, the various components of the paint become so separate and attenuated that it's a good idea to add a drop or two more yolk to the mix.  

When to do this?  I can't say precisely, but with practice you develop a feeling for it; the paint just looks and feels too watery, doesn't quite look or feel like paint.  It's an intuitive sense developed over time.  Stay attentive to your tempering, the quality of your paint, and the quality of the surface you're developing (does it look and feel too dry, chalky, lacking in binder?).  I check my surface regularly by feeling it, and by an occasional gentle polishing with a soft piece of cheesecloth – if I can pull out a subtle shine I'm on the right track.    

Another consideration: In a very watery paint it's possible for the yolk and pigment to separate out from one another as the paint sits – so it's important to recombine the elements of watered down paint before you dip your brush into it.  It's become a habit for me to always swirl my brush in the paint a few times before loading.

Regarding your question, I don't think (tho' I'm not sure) this cautions against applying very thin, watery layers to start.  There are many tempera artists who start with very thin paint, so I don't believe it's the problem.

At this point the possibility I'm most curious/concerned with is the consequences of oversaturating a developing tempera painting with water.  I'm getting an experiential and intuitive sense that repeatedly saturating underlying layers of tempera paint isn't good for the paint layers; that too much water sitting in them weakens them. 

This doesn't mean don't work with a watery paint.  Just be sure to wipe your brush well before you apply it (as an experienced tempera painter, I'm sure you know what I mean – the paint goes on a bit like dry brush, but doesn't chatter or skip; still flows, but in a controlled manner).  Or, if you do apply puddles of paint (i.e. a petit lac), either do it early in a painting (not on top of dozens of underlying paint layers that are in the process of polymerizing); or apply a wet layer than immediately sop up the excess water before it soaks into the painting (I do this with a kitchen sponge; it can be done without lifting underlying layers, with practice).  And if you are applying a lot of watery layers on top of underlying layers, give the painting time to dry well in between; i.e. if the surface feels dry but is also cool to the touch, you know there's still a lot of residual water in the underlying layers.  Wait for that coolness to dissipate before adding fresh layers. 

I wish I could be more precise in what to tell you, but I'm still trying to figure out this student's problem, which I have seen only a handful of other times over the years, but is recurrent and is clearly is caused by something.   Any clues as to what that something could be are most welcome!

Koo

 

​Thanks again, Matthew and Brian. I've emailed my Schmincke contact again requesting further information but I suspect I will once again be redirected to the company spiel on lightfastness. If so, I may ask a German friend to compose a further email, just in case the problem is one of interpretation due to language difficulties. 

Thanks Brian. This is very useful. I would never expect a manufacturer to give me exact ratios etc but I think identifying the oils used is only reasonable--as well as some assurance that some thought has been given to the possibility of driers (or oils themselves) causing potential long term problems-- and that steps have been taken to minimise these potential problems to a reasonable degree. Instead, what I got from the Schmincke technical expert I emailed was repetitive directions to read the product literature regarding lightfastness--talk about confusing the issue !  Perhaps there was a language problem. In regard to your last statement did you mean long term "drying" defects or "dry" defects ( in relation to safflower oil as a vehicle)?. 

​I see we cross posted so please ignore my last query. 

​Further to my previous comment just posted (I see I can't edit) I jwanted to add that i am relieved to hear that, in general, I don't need to be overly concerned about the use of driers in oils made by reputable companies--so thanks for that. I do like the Schmincke Norma paint and their pigment choice is what I would hope for in a professional paint line but I am still puzzled as to why Schmincke would be using the blue wool scale for lightfastness and I'm wondering whether such ratings are sound? 

​Thanks but no, actually, I'm not talking about Schmincke Mussini. As far as I know they (Schmincke) are fairly open about the vehicle used in that particular paint, which has been around for a very long time and gets excellent reviews on artists' forums. The paint I am in fact talking about was formulated more recently by Schmincke. It is called "Norma Professional". Norma Professional does not have a considerable degree of linseed oil. I suspect it contains no or very little linseed oil. I find it strange that they are open about the vehicle used in one paint and opaque about that used in the Norma range. 

​​Presumably, you are talking about Schmincke Mussini. I've had some correspondence with them in the past; they don't disclose their recipes for specific colors, but across the range they do use linseed, safflower, sunflower, and poppy, with linseed being the primary oil that is present in some amount in most colors (with the exception of the whites). They almost certainly use driers; their titanium white dries in about four days in thin layers, and titanium bound in safflower or poppy oil simply does not dry that quickly without some help. 

As Matthew says, driers added in precise amounts during paint manufacture generally aren't something to worry about (unless you want your paint to stay open longer). I've been using Mussini paint for about fifteen years, and have never encountered any issues with darkening. Their titanium white (which as I mentioned, almost certainly contains driers) is tied for first place as "brightest, least yellowing white" on my eight-year old white test sheet. (Blockx titanium white in poppy oil is the other one, but the Blockx white takes twice as long to dry in thin layers, and can remain wet for more than a month in impastos.)



​Thanks Matthew   It's not just in the whites though; it's the entire paint line. Their description of the vehicle is as follows "Combinations of pure, high quality plant oils produce good adhesion, optimum absorption of the pigment and less tendency to yellow". I have a very sensitive nose and cannot smell linseed oil in these paints. They are virtually odourless--like other paints I have that are made with safflower oil. My guess would be safflower oil is the main vehicle but who knows? They are a professional paint line; in fact they use the word Professional in the paint name. By the way, what do you think of their use of the Blue Wool Scale? Can I trust the lightfastness ratings of these paints provided by the manufacturer? 

I was only considering the water-miscible for the underpainting, Brian, then moving on to regular oils. Generally speaking, I really don't care for the wm oils, but thought they might be useful for underpaintings where solvent was traditionally used for "washy" and quick-drying effects. Thanks for your thoughts!

​Your willingness to share your knowledge is much appreciated, Brian and Kristin, thank you. So helpful to my quest!  :-)

​Thanks for the quick touch back and plentiful references. I'll be devouring this material!

​Very helpful and in-depth answer, Brian...thank you. Would you also comment on the use of watercolor (i.e. a Sepia Brown paint comprised of PB 15:1 + PBk 9 + PBr 7) for an underdrawing (narrow lines only) as well as a water-miscible, water-thinned oil paint mix for the same sort of underdrawing? My goal here is solvent-free *and* durable. I understand, from your answer previously, that it would be most wise to fully cover any underdrawing, regardless of medium, with pigmented oil paint.

​I apologize. I did not include my name in the previous comment. This is the first time I have commented on this forum. 

Jason

​Koo, As you seem to suggest that this cracking occurred due to paint application irregularities rather than preparation of the support, have you reached any conclusions regarding use of water in the tempered paint? You have prevdiously suggested that once the paint is tempered, the amount of water used should not harm the binding properties of the emulsion. Do you have any further guidelines regarding the technique of laying down initial layers of thin washes to start a painting or in the use of water washes to glaze in color over dried or built up layers? Does this incident suggest caution in the use of too much water especially in early stages of a painting?

​Thank you for these thoughts, Matthew and Brian. Hopefully, the amonia (or whatever the source is in this quality gesso with built-in sealer) smell will lessen in time and won't be an issue. Meanwhile, I am considering my other options for a substrate. Best wishes to you both, Susan

​I've just checked my deck where those boards were lying to dry, and there are shiny specks everywhere that's under a pine tree and not under the eaves, so maybe it's not cat spray. That leaves me scratching my head: high-quality non-smelly gesso from a new jar...gesso over size that's supposed to be ok...proper drying times between...non-smelling (different brand) gesso on the back...decent brushes...180 grit sandpaper...nothing smells but the front sides of these panels that have this particular brand of gesso over a size layer. What could it be?? I'm about to chuck them all, as it's too strong of a smell for my tiny work space. I suppose I have nothing to lose at this point by putting another layer of the same gesso on the smelly side...   :-(

​Hi.  I just got an email (in italics) from the student with the watercolor problem - perhaps the mystery is solved.

Koo

I just finished another WC workshop with Laurin McCraken. I mentioned the missing paint dilemma to him, as it was a painting that I had done in his class two years ago.

He said "I know the problem, it is the ox gall coming out solution of the watercolor paint."  He says that he has seen this happen before where the paint was laid down very heavy.  After the paint dried it appeared to have "snail tracks" through it.  

Lauren suggest that putting down a heavy coat of watercolor, as in the dark fold of cloth or background, that while the surface is wet that you take a dry brush and 'scumble' the surface to enhance the watercolor mix on the paper.  This might give the ox gall a chance to cure with the rest of the elements.  I think the article in hand print (http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/pigmt1.html) supports this idea.

I have read that one can do that, but no I haven't...I'm just guessing the possibility due to the strange amonia smell (unlike the regular water-based gesso smell on the back side, which is Golden's Gesso) and the shiny specks on the surface. The front side (that smells persistently) is a  different brand of water-based gesso, which the manufacturor says does NOT smell, and hasn't smelled in my past experience with it. (It's a new jar, and the jar itself and two test panels made at the same time--but without sizing--do not smell.) This is the first time I've used a gesso over a size, but again, the back side does not smell and was done the same way. It's a cat urine-like odor, but I can't think what else the smell could be caused by.

​Have you confirmed the presence of cat urine with UV light?

Thank you for the clarification, Brian and Matthew...very helpful!  Best, Susan

​This seems like a good time to clarify my confusion: would you explain each of these terms and their functions: Size -- Ground -- Primer? It seems there is often some overlap in language when I see them used in other places... Thanks so much!

Thanks for your replies, Kristin and Brian.  I think the very fine cracking in this student's work is unrelated to the support or ground (I know the panels she's working on, they are good quality; and other students working on the same panels are not getting craquelure).  I think there is something going on with her application of multiple, very watery paint layers, and I'm trying to understand it on a technical level (and hoping it would explain other, similar examples I've heard of over the years).  Whatever is occurring, it's an uncommon problem and there may not be enough cumulative experience or study in egg tempera to answer the question.  But maybe you can find other voices to chime in.  

I appreciate your thoughts on lead white in egg tempera, Brian - I feel the same and it's good to have corroboration.

Koo

​Thanks, Dana from Ampersand. (twice!)

​Hi Susan - I agree with Brian. I would recommend using your preference of walnut alkyd medium or solvent free medium (fluid) wiping in a SMALL amount to reduce the absorbency of the surface. Then, once this has dried thoroughly, you can paint with oil paint on this surface. Be sure (as mentioned) to cover the surface with paint, leaving no oiled areas exposed. - Dana at Ampersand Art Supply

​Thanks, Brian!

Very glad to hear your experience and thoughts on this, Brian. I have that same question in to the Ampersand folks at the moment, and they seem to be very good about getting back with answers. Your conservator's experience on this subject is appreciated. Did you let that oil/ground touch-dry before painting, or proceed immediately with paint? Either way, very good news! ♡

​Thank you for the link, Brian. I'll study that post. Much appreciation for MITRA and all of your staff's accumulated wisdom and experience. Best, Susan

​Kristin, thank you! for that suggestion that simply rubbing a bit of walnut alkyd medium into a too-absorbant ground would be completely acceptable/durable.♡ I'd prefer to let the ground touch-dry before proceeding, as opposed to "painting into a couch." Would both approachs work, do you think?

​Brian, if I'm understanding correctly, you advise here against rubbing oil directly into an acrylic ground to lesson its absorbancy unless one is immediately painting over it and thus incorporating that oil into the paint film itself. But I am wondering, would you *also* advise against rubbing a small amount of Walnut Alkyd Medium into a substrate such as a Claybord panel (to lesson absorbancy) that would be left to touch-dry before continueing on with oil paint? Thanks for your thoughts, Susan

​Thank you Matthew and Sarah for your speedy and insightful perspectives on my questions. My impetus in asking these sorts of questions is that I'm looking for a way to avoid (or greatly diminish) my exposure to solvents, including ammonia. There is solvent-free oil painting approach (Gamblin's solvent-free mediums and M. Graham's walnut and walnut alkyd mediums, for example) that I've been using successfully for some time, but finding a similar approach for the size and ground has been frustrating. Though there are many fine acrylic-based gessos and sizes out there, they all have their fumes which can linger for some time, in my experience. I have a small working space within my home, and this is an issue. PVA sounds like a possibility. Matthew, your suggestion of an oil-based primer thinned lightly with something like M. Graham's walnut alkyd medium is something I will look into. Would a procedure of PVA size on a wood panel, followed by this walnut alkyd thinned oil-based primer (i.e. Gamblin Ground comes to mind) be an approach that you'd support technically? (I do understand that issue of "archival" as Mark G. wrote about, and was just using that term for the general idea of "durable.") As for using factory-primed canvases and panels: many I have tried have been frustratingly absorbant, especially for a solvent-free painter who wants to scrub in the first layer instead of using a solvent-thinned imprimatura or toning. In the past, I've added several layers of gesso to factory-prepared canvases which does work better, but still leaves me with those fumes for a good while. I have been pondering using a factory-primed panel or canvas and then scrubbing in a thin imprimatura layer of Titanium White oil paint slightly thinned with walnut alkyd medium (or M. Graham's Titanium White Rapid Dry), in order to make further paint layers go on more smoothly. Do you think this approach would be "archival" in that durable sense of the word? Or would you recommend any other approachs to making too-absorbant grounds more user-friendly? Thank you in advance for your suggestions!

Susan

I see. Great, thanks for all the help.

 Thanks, Matthew.  Yeah, I've experienced this with alkyd mediums, as have many artists that I know. I have noticed, however, that some bonds never get better as they dry, or if they do, they improve very little. I’ve noticed it's the bonds that become firm within a week or two that are generally the ones that stay strong, but maybe I'm wrong there.

I've just read some of the basic concepts of commercial paint application. I know they must have different standards, but the concepts of dispersive adhesion such as “wetting”, “roughness” and differing surface energies must apply to oil painting as well, right? If these are universal to all types of painting, is it possible I'm getting air pockets and bridges between lean paint layers that are preventing adhesion?

http://www.materialstoday.com/metal-finishing/features/fundamentals-of-paint-adhesion/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispersive_adhesion

Hi Sarah, 

Thanks for your answer. This is actually not the first time I've spoken to you about paint adhesion. I'm concerned about this because I've noticed my paintings can be exceedingly fragile. There are a lot of different areas on a number of different paintings where I've noticed issues, so for the sake of clarity I'll stick with the most troubling; that is where very simple methods of painting were used and problems still arise.

These are areas where no solvent and no medium is being used, just paint straight from the tube in varying thicknesses.  It's essentially alla prima painting over and over again, each layer given time to dry and the same palette being used throughout.    

Most areas build up enough to lose the weave of a 15 oz (unprimed) canvas.  Some areas are impastoed, some flat. I paint and repaint in many layers, so I thought this would keep the paint lean enough to always be pourous and toothy if I decided another layer was needed.

The surfaces of these layers can range from matte and cakey, course to smooth, to more brittle, shinier impasto. All of these surface types can sometimes seem just as fragile as my more experimental surfaces, where mediums and more questionable techniques are used freely.

Some have been dry for about a year, some a few weeks. It is hard to tell whether additional drying time is the answer. Some passages dried in a week are durable and seemingly similar areas that have been dry for six months are not. They seem weak in the same way. This makes me think a weak bond doesn't always resolve itself. So I'd like to be able to know if a good bond is actually forming, especially if it's primarily a chemical one.

  None have delaminated on their own (probably because the canvas is stretched over panel) but top layers can often be removed fairly easily with a simple piercing and running of the palette knife, peeling off cleanly, a weak, brittle layer (thick or thin) of oil paint from the layer beneath it. It takes about the same amount of force or less that it does to scratch a lottery ticket. Maybe this is normal, I don't know. But it's the separating of layers that is suspicious, as I would think a strong oil painting is bonded all the way through to the ground as one durable film.  Again, some of these layers have had months of drying time.

The ground is a high quality acrylic dispersion made by Utrecht.  I’m now considering going to a lead oil ground to see if it helps, and also switching to using lead white. I've read the films are stronger than titanium and I use a lot of titanium.

What is frustrating is that it seems like lean paint straight from the tube just stops adhering to itself after so many layers, sometimes surprisingly early. I thought this simple method would be fool proof. But maybe a medium is needed at some point in order to ensure adhesion to the previous layer?  I’m very wary of mediums because they can over complicate matters. Also, I've used them by the book before and the same thing is liable to happen, except the area that is poorly bonded is more skin like and flexible than flaky. 

All of this is made more confusing because I don't know what actually constitutes proper bonding between layers and how to recognize it when it's happening. Bonding that would help ensure that the painting will survive well enough under the expected conditions that a painting is meant to endure.  

I do not want to post images online but if you'd like to see some of what I'm talking about, I can send them via email.

Thanks again, I know this was long but I can't tell you how much I appreciate this feedback.

​Thanks Matt.

Appreciate the prompt and considered reply.

Denis

​can you expand on "slick coating"? We use several thin coats and then sand it to create a very smooth surface.

​Thank you so much Matthew and Brian! This is all so amazingly helpful. 

​Thank you so much, Brian! This is extremely helpful. I’m sad to hear that spike oil isn’t the less toxic solution I thought it was, but glad to know the truth. I will switch back to less-expensive Gamsol with this in mind.

To clarify, are the three major drying oils you are referring to linseed, poppy, and walnut oil? Does this include stand oil?

Thank you again,
Aliza

​Thank you Sarah!

Pity it can't be done with Oils, but I can understand the dangers from what you said. :)

​Thanks for checking back, Kristin - I'll let my student know  the panel was stumped and, on my end, if the student figures out anything more specific I'll let you all know.

Koo

That is a fast reply!  I like contacting Golden directly, you have a very helpful technical crew, but I also like bringing up issues that I've discussed with fellow painters on MITRA, since I know they check in here regularly and thus the reply gets shared with many. 

My metalpoint friend works on paper, doesn't sand, so the pastel ground has worked well for him; but I work on panels, I like to build up lots of layers and sand. What you say makes sense, of course - sanding the pastel ground for smoothness will reduce the additional tooth I'm aiming for.  I appreciate that Golden produces so many possibilities for metalpoint.  I'll play with them and see what I come up with. 

Thanks, Koo

​Thank you! 

So it sounds like my concerns for introducing a thin oil layer  -oiling out- are nothing to worry about? 

But I like the suggestion to actively avoid the sunken in areas by adding more medium to the paint to begin with, especially the darks which seem to sink in more and more quickly loose their 'wet' appearance.

Do we know of historical examples or painters who practiced oiling out either with or without detriment? 

Best

​Thank you. I guess I will premix smaller batches of paint. I will check out Mayer's comments as well.

​Okay that's great because I've been doing this for awhile:) THANK YOU!

What are the consequences of using the (linseed) oil once it has begun to oxidize like this, or using it even further into oxidation? Loosing binding and adhesion strength perhaps. 

What if the paint skin is mixed back into the paint and used?

Cheers

Hello, and thanks for the replies. I meant that I want to protect them while they are exhibited. I know that lining is a difficult procedure, but I doubt I will be able to find any paper conservators within my area that have experience in Asian papers. I'm also concerned that their services might be too expensive for me. Thus I'm leaning towards the second proposed solution - I think I can just have them put behind acrylic glass by a framing company. I would have to ask what sort of backing they provide - I know they sometimes use HDF, but I'm not sure if that would suffice.

As for the paper type: it's sold as "Wenzhou Paper" and, according to one source, it's made from mulberry bark.

​Good to know, thanks for your response.  Koo

​Thanks, Kristin, very informative.  So, if there is no lead (via either pigments or added dryers) in a paint film (oil, aklyd or egg yolk), no lead soaps form, and thus the paint does not grow more transparent with age; or there is a bit of increased transparency even with the absence of lead, due to secondary mechansims, but it's so minimal as to be irrelevant?  Am I understanding this correctly?

​Hello All,

"Vermiform" was the word I was looking for - thanks for that descriptor.  I sent the student your various questions; his replies are in italics.

1.  One of the images appears to show a canvas-like texture in the support. What is the support material for the watercolors? Is it paper, and if so, which brand?

I believe the support in question (watercolor of pears on a green cloth) is Fredrix archival watercolor canvas board.  The other painting is on 300# Fabriano Artistico cold press watercolor paper. 

2.  Which brand of watercolors?

I'm not sure.  The pears on green cloth was the oldest of those I showed you and then I had some Academy and Cotman watercolors.  I have gotten rid of my ""student" grade watercolors and now use W&N professional, Daniel Smith, and Holbien watercolors.  The second painting (cherries on blue background) was W&N and Daniel Smith of higher quality.

3.   What colors?

The blue paint in cherries painting was a mix of W&N and Daniel Smith, indigo and Prussian blues, crimson red and mars black. 

4.  Any other relevant info?

Daniel Smith masking agent was used and removed.  But, the pattern doesn't have a relationship to the use of the masking areas. 

I use W&N series 7 brushes that were cleaned (at that time) in tap water.  The tap water was used for paint mixing as well.  I thought the water was suspect because it is high in iron and other minerals.  The pH runs slightly to the alkaline.  I've since gone to distilled water for all.  However paintings with this same problem were done in other locations with different water sources.  

I noticed the tracks after a couple weeks, progressing from the corners into the center.  The board was set on an easel in a vertical attitude.  Nothing was on the surface.I have not found a common denominator for the malady.  

Thanks for your help,


Koo


PS.  

Haiku.  Japanese

poem or friendly greeting?

Could be both, Sarah.


(-:

The point is to see how atypical materials will compare with traditional materials - yellowing, fading, cracking, peeling, and so on. The reasoning behind exposing them to extreme conditions is that if they are really inferior from a conservation perspective, then their failure should become more apparent when stored in an environment that is much more harsh than an average interior.

The oil is cosmetic grade, cold pressed, refined, with a certified range of specific fatty acid content.

​Thanks for the answers. I became interested in other oils when I read that some of them dry faster without the use of siccatives.

As far as testing goes: what sort of a test setup would be the best? I was thinking of putting the samples outside, which would expose them to everything from extreme temperature and humidity changes to UV raditation. At the same time, I thought it would be good to use some sort of shielding to protect them from rain. However, with the UV-filtering effect of glass, I'm not sure what substitute would be best.

Any comments/suggestions for a good experimental setup?

​Hi Kristin,


Four images uploaded - hopefully they came through, and hope you can interpret them.  Thanks, Koo

​Thanks so much for the helpful feedback!

Thinking about the lackluster- dull sheen- is a helpful way for me to evaluate if I have broken down the paint film with too much oms, though this only is noticable once the paint has dried, no? 

Do you know of any paint to solvent ratio guidelines beyond which the films tend to break down?

And I understand your comments how theoretically adding oms is not lowering the amount of oil, thus not making the paint more lean, though in practice is it reasonable to think that adding oms makes the paint more lean? 

Thanks for the information.​

Thank you for the information and comments. To clarify, when I said "solid cardboard", I meant the grayish non-corrugated board made out of pulp. There are no spaces inside it, between the outer layers.

The main reason I'm leaning towards cardboard is that:

  1. Where I live, I can rarely get any information about any rigid support I would use from the manufacturers. Thus, besides knowing that the MDF and HDF I can buy are made with urea-formaldehyde (and thus, presumably, suspect from a conservation standpoint), I can't really say anything for sure about them.
  2. Ignoring the formaldehyde issue, I read that HDF is preferable to MDF - but given the size of the board I would like to paint on (100x70cm), I found that it's practically impossible to keep the HDF from bending unless it's kept perfectly horizontal. I don't have the tools (or time) to cradle the panels.
  3. The hardboard I can get is a bit stiffer than HDF, though it still bends and I'm not sure about how well it will perform in the long term.
  4. Regular wood is too heavy.
  5. Plywood, as I was told, tends to split.

The cardboard I can get is thicker (and more rigid) than HDF, should have no added formaldehyde (unlike the HDF and MDF) and doesn't require cleaning and sanding, unlike the hardboard.

Thank you for the replies. I do realize that industrial formulations might not be appropriate for artwork meant to last centuries, but sometimes there is just no other choice - especially when living away from big cities and having a limited budget.

​I keep hearing that idea of reverse engineering of the painting in my head, and I am seduced by that idea. However more to the heart of my inquiry, I am looking for recommendations based on your structural knowledge of paint films on nest practices in oil painting thick wide spead layers to avoid alligatoring and delamination. I know you've already answered how Richter might do this, but perhaps have other ideas...Ciao  

​​Thank you for the thorough explanation, this is much more clear now. Yes this was the article I was referencing and also took #6 to mean light valued (opaque) lower layers, including lead white ground, darker (increasingly transparent) upper layers, which in some ways is the opposite of how I've always thought of oil painting progressing from darkest shadows toward white highlights, but I am starting to understand the science here.

Best

​Insightful comments as always. I´ll keep you posted- Cheers

Yes, I'm sure it's PVA, it's in the manufacturer's information sheets. (Together with the 6-7 pH value, which makes me a bit uncertain - is a very weak acid a significant factor?)​

​Thanks so much for pointing me to this article. 

Much more respect to Richter, though I must admit I am a bit skeptical of his ordering of pigments by drying rates, especially since his revealed underlayers are often very chromatic and transparent pigments, but indeed they seem very soundly made. 

It seems straight oil paint is too thick to strain through muslin, but perhaps at near industrial quantites it works.

If one were to use thickly layered paint in this manner, would you recommend ammending the paint in any way?

Cheers

Thank you for the reply. I don't think they are art supplies, they're simply classified under "preparation for painting" - presumably this means interior/exterior decorative painting.​

I haven't seen any PVA glue that was recommended for archival purposes - most of the time they are just sold as wood glue. I'm not sure whether UV exposure is an important factor considering that the sizing will ultimately be hidden under the layers of ground and painting.

As for "bona fide" art boards and such: I could probably get something that claims to be for "artist use", but I haven't yet seen any evidence (certificates) that it's fundamentally different. The best I can do is get some acrylic ground from Talens and trust that it will perform well on the mentioned rigid supports. Anything else worth trying?

​Kristin is absolutely correct. Monona, who runs Arts, Theater, Crafts Safety, is an Industrial Hygeinist and she and her website will have the most up to date information. She and other safety professionals have dedicated themselves to helping artists work safely because there was so little information on the specific and unusual ways that artists use chemicals and other hazardous materials.


Kerith

​Thanks, Kristin - that is all very interesting.  I've been trying for a while to understand these issues and it can be hard to get answers from a museum (undoubtedly because they are so busy just attending to the collection), so it's helpful to hear your informed perspective.  Labeling is often nearly exclusively focused on cultural issues (the climate in which artwork is created), which is interesting enough - but how I'd love to learn more about materials and working methods!  Maybe, with scientific advances in analyzing mediums, and more conservators looking into the subject (as you do in your dissertation), this will change?  I hope so. 

Koo

​Thank you for the detailed reply. Do you know of any studies on the effects of these sorts of supplies on art painters? The few that I was capable of finding were mostly limited to industrial use.

​PS - To clarify, Botticelli's Birth of Venus is not at the BMFA (although other Botticelli works on canvas are).   I just mention it as an extreme example (especially given it's large size) of egg tempera on canvas.  

​Thanks so much, Kristin. Your answer is helpful---although it is the advice that I was fearing most---but I will try a small area near the edge first and see how that goes. And I have already had a long talk with my husband. ;)

Jennifer

​Thanks, Sarah.

​Thank you for clearing that up. Would you say that in a scenario where I can only choose between hardboard (wet-process, no UF) or UF-glued HDF/MDF, it's better to go with hardboard?

​Brian - Thanks for addressing the combination/issues concerning animal hide glues and UF. Regarding panels sold in the US and their regulations, these apply to any panels that are intended for sale to the US market as well. This means that we see this (nearly) as a complete industry change, regardless of country of production. 

Dana Brown

Ampersand Art Supply

​Hi Sarah,

Could zinc sulfide possibly replace zinc oxide as an addition to titanium white, ie. to mitigate the "sponginess" of straight titanium?

​Thanks so much for your response Kristin. That answers a lot of questions I've had that are difficult to research. I have one more question, along those same lines. I've read a lot about the risks of using zinc white in paintings, and especially in the initial layers of a painting. This is challenging since almost all of the commercially prepared oil primed linens out there use zinc white. My question is, if I am gluing these to a rigid support, does the zinc priming carry the same risks, or any risk, as those stretched over stretcher bars? I'm using Claessesns, which is primed with a layer of zinc white, and then a layer of titanium white.  Thanks again.

​That's great news.! Thank you very much Sarah :)

Thanks for the reply, but I think it doesn't actually address the most important point.

Can we get a reply regarding the problem of UF degradation and conservation issues? I'm not in the US, so what US companies do with wood products doesn't matter to me - what I'd like to know is whether using UF-containing fiberboards will negatively affect my oils and acrylics as the glue outgasses and breaks down. Will the boards start coming apart? Will the acidity cause color degradation?

As you are probably aware, sizes can be either water or oil-based.  Water-based size is less or non-toxic and easier to clean up; oil-based size has a solvent smell and requires solvent clean up but is generally preferred as it is more self-leveling, more durable, and has varied set and dry times. 

I have a can of Rolco Size that's lasted me for years, given the minimal amount of gilding I do - it has always preformed well for me.  However a more experienced gilder friend recommends either Le Franc Oil Size, made in France; or Due Size, a USA company.  All of these products come in both a quick dry (reaches tack in approx. 1 to 3 hours) and slow set (reaches tack in 8 or more hours, stays open longer). Whatever oil mordant you use, be sure to first seal the surface before applying the size (or else the size sinks in and doesn't create even tack).  You can seal either with an initial coat of thinned size (which is what I generally do) or shellac. 

Koo Schadler

 

​Excellent, thank you for the comments and Golden link.

This has all been very helpful and I appreciate everyones insights here. Thank you again. 

It seems then the best solution is to either go with artist polyester fabric or silkscreen polyester. A few questions: 

1. Do you think one would be better than the other (pros/cons)? 

2. Would artist polyester also handle extreme solvents?

3. Would oil work vs. ink on silkscreen?

4. Silksreen would be difficult to staple onto a stretcher correct? 


Thanks again for all the "rheological" suggestions here everyone.  I'm really learning some new ways to describe and think about 'non-newtonian' paint consistency- a real vocab primer George!

 I will look for some barite to try as well. I got some nice thick, firm, long, and stringy results from the addition of powdered marble and Stand Oil to a tube of Titanium White like I was after, as seen in the photo.

However, the 10 percent addition suggestion didn't affect the paint enough, and I had to add much more than that, which led to the paint being too brittle for use once dry…

 LongTitWhite.jpg

There are several points and questions made in the string of posts above and we will try to address each one and comment.   We will mostly focus on the urea formaldehyde (UF) concern and outgassing.  However, we agree with the comment above that the deterioration of PVA size is not of major concern due to its non-acidic nature and flexible bond.


Urea Formaldehyde:

With regard to UF still present in composite panels (such as MDF, HDF, Hardboards) and hardwood plywoods, it is correct that the EPA will require manufacturers of composite panels and hardwood plywood to be CARB compliant (adhering to California standards) over the next few years. (unless of course the EPA policy changes).  Many if not most manufacturers of these products are moving in this direction voluntarily.   For example, all composite panels and products made from composite panels coming into the US from abroad must be CARB compliant, meaning that they have to meet the standard that the California Air Resources Board has set for UF in composite panels.  The following link provides more information on the standard:  https://www.arb.ca.gov/toxics/compwood/retailersfacts.pdf

There have also been developments of low-emitting and no added urea formaldehyde (NAUF or NAF) panels on the market and are available for purchase.   US made hardboard does not contain UF and therefore is one of the only composite panels that is exempt from CARB regulations.   This is only one of the several reasons we choose to use the hardboard as the base substrate for our panels.

 

MDF & Hardboard:

In general, the bigger issues with MDF (medium density fiber boards) and HDF (high density fiber boards) have more to do with their density and dry-process construction. When the density of a wooden panel support increases, there are improvements in its stiffness, internal bond strength, and resistance to moisture absorption. Thinner MDF panels are more susceptible to water absorption and more prone to warping than HDF, for example. While a thicker MDF panel may help to reduce its tendency for warping, it can still have issues due to excessive moisture absorption. This moisture includes issues such as fiber raising when applying priming coats. A denser panel in comparison will accept a smoother coating of primer, reducing the number of gesso layers needed to properly prepare a panel with a smooth painting ground.

Hardboard and high-density fiber boards for example have a higher density and will absorb less moisture and be less prone to warping or fiber raising.  Moreover wet process manufactured hardboards that are tempered are even more resistant to moisture absorption and are considered one of the better substrates for commercial finishes.  

For more information on substrate comparison for wood panels, you may want to refer to an article Ampersand wrote for Golden's Just Paint newsletter.  That article, while a few years old, compared various wooden panel support options and addressed advantages and disadvantages of each. These comparisons were made pertaining to density, internal bond (the force that it takes to pull a material apart), modulus of rupture (the maximum breaking strength of a board), and moisture absorption. http://www.justpaint.org/understanding-wood-supports-for-art-a-brief-history/

This article helps to illustrate the benefits of one panel selection over another, based on its overall stability and resistance to moisture and movement. It may be worthwhile reading for more detail on these differences.

Dana Brown

Ampersand Art Supply

​Thank you for the info. When the piece comes down from exhibition I'll test the OMS out and post the results. All of these suggestions you offered sound very reasonable. Worst case scenario, I'll sand and re paint the area. Luckily it's a fairly simple painting. Thanks again for your help. 

​I just tried to upload a photo. Not sure if it made it. BTW, the foam was over the tissue and was the thin, white foam. I recycled it from a photo printer who used it to wrap a photo printed on aluminum. 

​I agree with the answers already given by Kristin, Matt, & Brian and have nothing new to add regarding oil paint on on unsized fabric. But I do have one suggestion, which is to try painting on a lightweight metal screen and let the paint go through that. You do mention needing to wet the support to extend drying time. But keep in mind that the various brands of oil stick have different consistencies and different drying rates, so you may want to research that.

Your willingness to explore options that will hopefully result in less traditional viable solutions is really appreciated. Thank you.

So what I am understanding so far is that oil sticks on artist polyester fabric may be the best bet for longevity since the fabric is not being treated prior to painting. Is there anything that could be done to the fabric once the piece is complete to help with preservation? In other words, could the fabric be sprayed and/or coated with some kind of fixer to aid in longevity, or is that not necessary because it’s synthetic? 

The only other issues is drying time. Someone mentioned to me today that certain brands of oil sticks such as R&F (www.rfpaints.com/), have fewer additives which may accelerate drying? 

What’s more, the way this technique works is the fabric must be coated with a solution to allow the paint to be “pushed through” to the other side resuliting in the two sided piece. Experimentation thus far has led to spraying the fabric with a blend of poppyseed oil and terpenoid. This also seems to slow the drying time and to be honest, I have no idea if that is even a blend that makes much sense. It does however allow for the paint to bleed from one side to the other. 

Thank you. Do you feel that furhter exploration of asynthetic fabric is worth pursuing as a potential solve for this issue? 

Also I think acrylic would be a very viable solution, but I've never seen acrylic paint sticks. The idea behind the paint stick vs. a brush is that it enable the paint to really be pushed through with pressure. Do they exist to your knowledge? I've not found anything to date. 

Hi. Durable, long lasting (without deteriorating because of oil), and faster drying time is absolutely the goal. The reason I am not using a typical artist’s canvas is they tend to be too thick for what I am doing which is painting on one side of the canvas using oil sticks and pushing the paint through to the other side, creating a two sided piece. I have not heard of a polyester artist's canvas. It sounds promising, I just need it to be thin enough, or pours enough to allow paint to go from one side to the other. 

Thank you. 

Thank you! 

It is a completed painting that I am attaching to a panel …as apposed to a raw piece of tar paper, and I have BEVA 371! So I will cross my fingers and proceed with caution. Thanks again.


​Matthew Kinsey, thank you, very helpful. And Kristin. 

​Thank you. 

Thank you for answering my question. Knowing nothing about acrylic mediums and hoping that suggesting specific brands is appropriate here, could you give me a couple of names of products? I haven't done a lot of canvas/linen surface prep so am ignorant of acrylic mediums.

1- Suggestions for an acrylic dispersion gel medium for adhering the linen to board in place of Beva? Should it be gloss or matte, etc?

2 – What is an example of a thinned fluid acrylic dispersion medium for sizing the linen prior to priming with lead oil ground?  Is this different than acrylic gesso?

Thank you!!

​Two related questions/comments:

- I belive the formaldehyde issue is relevant to plywood glues as well, yes?

- I've read that many (most?) engineered wood products now meet “CARB” (California Air Resources Board’s) stringent emission levels, and to ask for the CARB seal of approval when buying fiberboards.  The EPA is in the process of applying these standards nationally, (see: https://www.epa.gov/formaldehyde/formaldehyde-emission-standards-composite-wood-products), although in the current political climate I'm not sure what will happen.  Regardless, I think the industry is trying to get on board with CARB standards.  Anyone know if that's accurate?

Koo

Thank you for the reply.

Would you say that a hardboard with no urea-formaldehyde is superior to HDF and/or MDF with urea-formaldehyde? ​

​Matthew and Brian,

What luxurious info, thank you and I will keep you posted. I have read that larger pigment size does alter paint rheology but am not well versed here. 

Is there a chart you may know of that lists approximate pigment size across common pigments? 

Or other charts that list other rheology properties? (And what are the properties of rheology with respect to oil paint?) I've seen some drying rates or oil absorbtion  rates (Doerner) arranged like this. 

I'm sure this varies by many factors (mulling, brand etc), and perhaps too many to be useful, but can imagine flake white or ochre being on one end and phthalocyanine and the lakes on the other, giving me an idea of pigment-behavior-properties to explore other colors beyond white...

Best!

Thank you for the reply. The problem that I have with acrylic dispersion paints is that they are almost impossible to work with without retarder - at least where I live. They are pretty much dry a couple of seconds after being applied to the support, making achieving smooth transitions ​impossible. Anything less than a significant amount of retarder seems to be buying me a couple of seconds (literally) at most. Also, the drag on the brush is terrible without it. Adding water helps with the drag but, aside from speeding up drying, it also reduces the opacity.

An update - I spritzed Hydrogen Peroxide onto some silverpoint marks and it dissolved them, they lifted right up.  I've had success minimizing metalpoint marks with rubbing alcohol on a cotton swab; seemingly HP does the same thing, but I'm not sure if there is a detrimental effect to the ground.

I then placed a panel with silverpoint marks face down over a tray of Hydrogen Peroxide, so the marks were exposed just to the fumes. They turned from grey to brown in 24 hours, although the value of the marks did not deepen.

Koo

​great--thanks Kristin! 

​dear Moderator

I hope it's OK to ask a related question here. I came across some fairly lightweight but strong, good quality linen (not designed for artists' use) which I have adhered to a panel (after washing and rinsing it well, though it didn't appear to have any dressing on it). It's possible it's a mixture of cotton and linen fibres but my sense is that it's most likely pure linen. Is it terribly unwise to use linen that is not specifically designated for artists' use in making a textile-on-panel support of this kind? Thanks for any help you can give me on this question. 


​Update: I tried the two-sheet approach (attaching one sheet of BEVA to the linen, then a second sheet to the panel, and then mounting the two together), and this seems to work much better. I just did several panels, and they all came out flawlessly--no loose edges. It adds a bit of expense, since each panel requires twice as much BEVA. It's worth it to keep the linen from coming loose, though.  

I expose my drawings to sulfur for only a day or two, no more - it's sufficient to make a perceptible change in tone and color, but hopefully not enough to affect support or ground (my support is generally a wood-based panel, which I would suppose is more resistant than paper to detrimental effects, yes)?  I'll see what it's like to put Hydrogen Peroxide on an image (I know, Hugh said only in gaseous form, but I'm game to try spritzing it on a test panel to see what happens). Thanks for all the helpful replies, and if any other ideas come up for accelerating oxidation of metalpoint, I'd be interested. 

 

Koo Schadler

​Excellent--thanks!  :)

​Thank you for the quick response!  

​Okay, that's very helpful advice--thanks!

Thank you both very much for your prompt and detailed responses, I’m glad I asked! I look forward to experimenting with your suggestions, and will keep an eye on the Golden blog for more tips and suggestions. Many thanks!


​Our experience basically agrees with the moderator's post. We have worked with naphtha-thinned BEVA liquid adhesive at various dilutions. We have found that keeping it at the right temperature is important. And different dilutions should be tested with the given surfaces being mounted. 


BEVA film, being as thin as it is, may have adherence problems with coarser weave canvas. It may not penetrate the weave very well nor seal it. Two layer are better. But I feel using the liquid adhesive is the best yet. But use a respirator. The naphtha is pretty strong. But is evaporates and disappears within an hour or two.

​Thanks Kristin. 

​Thanks Kristin. This is good to know! Jenny

​Thank you very much, Kristen.

I'll try a spray matte varnish spray then.  I'm so glad! 

Thank you again



​hello again Sorry to bring up yet another question but given the suggestion of using acrylic medium to attach my pre-RSG sized canvas to a panel, my new question is: Would it be within the bounds of reason to save even more time and just go directly to gluing the canvas to the panel using the acrylic "glue" and then (once the glue has dried and cured--maybe after a week) simply size the now-attached canvas with RSG? I do realise none of this is optimal. Perhaps we might call it something like harm reduction for someone who wants to use RSG as a size for her canvas (to test out a theory that it produces a nicer surface for working on). Any thoughts you have would be very welcome. Thanks for your patience!  

​Hope it's OK to post a question that pertains to this thread? Does the use of rabbit skin glue on a panel predispose the paint to crack? Or is the rigidity of the panel (assuming one had stabilised the panel through bracing etc) enough to largely prevent this from happening? I have a few old paintings in which RSG was used to glue the linen to the panel and to seal the panel. PS I already know all the downsides of RSG (I've been reading about them for many many years) but I am curious about it's particular behaviour in this situation. 

​Thank you Kristen that's good to know. I've heard other artists say all oil paints will crack eventually, so wanted to check.. :)

​Thank you Kristen!

​Thanks Kristin.

​Thanks Kristen. I suspected it would not be a simple or straightforward procedure. Given this complexity it would seem that artists should be very sure of their panel substrate before using such an adhesive; one that Gottsegan described as essentially--from the artist's point of view--irreversible--at least for an artist who doesn't have access to the advice of a conservator. In the absence of a reasonable degree of certainty about the substrate perhaps it makes more sense to use a reversible adhesive, rather than wed one's hard-won painting to an "unknown quantity" so to speak? 

​Thank you Kristen for your reply.

I (and many others) are using Geneva paints made by Mark Carder which are a very highly pigmented and fluid consistency made with linsead oil and with added clove oil. They are so fluid they don't need to be thinned with solvents and I believe there are no stabilisers or other fillers added.

The paint (and other commercial beands with a slow-dry clove oil based medium) have been used by many artists on Mark's forum (drawmixpaint.com) for many years and there doesn't seem to have been any problems with a sticky undrying layer or varnish issues. So not sure why we haven't seen these issues?

Mark's website for Geneva paints is here if it helps:

https://genevafineart.com/

​Absolutely clear on that. I will only use RSG to size the linen. All other sealing and gluing will be done with acrylic dispersion mediums On the strength of your advice, I've decided to scrap the idea of gluing the finished painting onto the panel and will instead just go for the safer and more straightforward option of sizing on a stretcher then removing the textile and gluing it  to the panel BEFORE painting. Thanks again for helping me develop a sounder (and less messy) procedure. 

​Thanks Brian, that's very helpful. 

If it is OK to use acrylic mediums to glue a finished painting done on RSG-sized linen to a panel, that actually solves a lot of problems for me. I had assumed there was some kind of incompatibility between RSG and acrylic based adhesives (gel medium is what I would use) which would preclude their use in this way. But if that's not the case I'm very happy to hear it! Also I imagine that reducing my use of the RSG--by using it only as a size, while using an acrylic gel to seal the panel and glue the canvas on--would help to mitigate the bad effects of RSG. I am under the impression this mitigation of harm would be further enhanced by varnishing the picture, thus reducing the possibility of moisture penetrating and triggering the hygroscopic behaviour of the RSG. Would you agree that overall this would constitute "harm minimisation"? 

Thank you for the detailed answer.

Am I right to assume that pigments with an ASTM rating of I or II, or a high Blue Wool Scale score (7-8) should remain lightfast even without the binder?​

As for the picking up of colours - I don't assume anyone will be cleaning works on paper with a damp cloth, but would it make sense to coat the finished work with diluted PVA to provide a protective barrier?

​Yes, I had seen that other post and your suggestion to limit sun exposure time - if any. I was wondering if you could expand on the risks posed by "force drying" a painting in the sun.

​I'm avoiding oils mostly due to these four issues:

1) Health concerns. I don't use anything labelled as toxic or harmful, but I know that my drying oil had a drier added to it. The manufacturer doesn't need to indicate it (due to the amount being small), but it's still there. If I were to touch the painting with my hand, I would worry if I can completely remove the oil afterwards. I don't know if this particular drier (a manganese salt) would bioaccumulate.

2) They dry too slowly. Having to wait up to two weeks for a layer to finally dry before I can start painting on top is not enjoyable. I could try painting into a tacky layer, but more often than not I would just be making the colors muddy.

3) They are messy - this relates to the previous issue. I don't have a special oil painting studio, so that means evey time I accidentally touch a brush to anything (like furniture), I have to avoid touching it with anything else to stop the paint spreading everywhere and remember to clean it with solvent.

4) They are a pain when it comes to maintenance - related to issues number 1, 2 and 3. If I want to avoid both making a mess and ingesting potentially toxic substances, I need to not only wear gloves and be extra careful to not spill anything - I also need to be careful to clean anything that was spilled, and also to avoid contact with the brushes/palette while cleaning. The cleaning, again, involves solvent, and thus fussing with bottle caps on top of taking care not to spill anything out of the sink.

If there was some way of working with oils without the terrible, potentially toxic mess, I would have gone for it. As it stands, acrylic paint on a support coated with a layer of polyethylene glycol diluted with water 1:2 seems to be the best approximation.

​Thank you Kristin - and thank you George O'Hanlon. :)

-J.

Thanks Kristin, and to the second moderator too ( apologies, I can't see a name ). So, in lieu of specifics, might we say anodized aluminum is an "experimental" support? 

In any case, regarding Dibond, it's good to be aware of the safest option, mounting fabric to it. 

I know many of us will be eager to see the results of the tests done at Natural Pigments, and appreciate the time and resources that go into that kind of testing. I'll definitely be checking the Natural Pigments forum regularly ( assuming the results will be written up there ? )

Thanks for taking the time to consider my questions, it's always appreciated. -J.


I see. I was under the impression that a layer of retarder coated with acrylics would simply mix and end up being about the same as a layer of acrylics with retarder mixed in. Without such a layer to paint into, I find that the acrylics stay on the spot they've been applied to, and any sort of mixing just smears the stroke's upper layer while still leaving a sharp-edged mark where the initial stroke was applied, without the mobility I would like (or that I can get with oils).​

​Kristin has described an instance where a primer applied to the surface of ACM has demonstrated good adhesion. GOlden did tests with two different commercial DTM primers, Golden acrylic gesso and acrylic paint with various results—the DTM primers exhibiting the best adhesion in these tests. Natural Pigments is conducting adhesions tests of various commercial primers and paints on ACM to determine what can be adhered to specific panels as a guide to artists like the poster. Mounting substrates, such as canvas, is of course the best option at present until we have more definitive information from adhesion tests, such as those made by Golden Artist Colors, Natural Pigments and other companies. In regards traditional gesso and chalk grounds we found varying adhesion and we are working on a protocol to be apply these grounds to ACM panels, but at present have not concluded our research and recommendation.

Hello,

thank you for replies, everyone.

My main concern was about paint treated with a lot of retarder. The idea was to deliberately add "too much" (50% or more by volume) retarder and brush the mix all over the painted surface in order to get a smooth wet-into-wet blend when I lay down acrylic paints onto it. I would mix a safe amount of retarder into the actual acrylics going on top.

I am usually incapable of getting acrylics to have the quality of oils when it comes to painting, so one advice I read was to first coat the support with a layer of retarder. What I'm wondering is if it would make a difference if that preparatory layer was tinted.

​Thanks Kristin. I was hoping the anodized aluminum would offer better adhesion than Dibond, and wouldn't need a bonding primer. I'll try emailing the art store for more information about the panels. However, the treatment of the panels' surface is described as "proprietary", so chances are I'll receive assurances, but not specifics. I can always order a sample piece and do an adhesion test. But if the acrylic gesso looks to be adhering well - after a week, or even after a couple of years - does that really indicate good adhesion after, say, a couple of decades? I hope that doesn't seem a silly question. I'm just thinking of a number of painters, David Kassan springs to mind, who use Dibond, and prepare it by scuffing, cleaning and priming it directly, and skip the bonding primer step. I don't think anyone has had problems with adhesion, yet. I think George O'Hanlon also feels that priming Dibond directly should be safe. The impression I get is that if a primer adheres well to Dibond in the first place, the pvdf surface of the Dibond is ( is inert the right word? "chemically uneventful" ) enough that the primer should remain well-adhered over the long term. Hopefully the same would apply to anodized aluminum. Or have I misunderstood, and is a specialized primer like Sherwin-Williams DTM always recommended as a bond coat on Dibond, regardless of how well a particular acrylic primer might perform in an adhesion test? J.

It does help, thank you very much Kristin. By the way, I note that - in my initial post - I  inadvertently used the phrase "oil stain"​ when I should have written "oil paint stain". Apologies for that lack of clarity.

Thanks for your reply, it is much appreciated.

"First it is always a good idea to size."

Of course. I'm not trying avoid preparing the surface.

"This excerpt taken from the Chemical Principles of Textile Conservation (pg 117) may be of some interest..."

Yes, it is interesting, but is it the same thing? If the oil in oil paint is surrounded by pigments and fillers, it isn't isolated and exposed to the air. Would this create a different chemical environment?

"As for your image it does not appear to us that the areas designated with arrows are due to staining from the oil medium"

Its paint, not medium, though the paint probably has some medium in it. Maybe there's not enough of it to have an effect... ? In any case if there are any web resources with photos of canvas rotted by oil paints, I would appreciate a link. I feel the jury is still out, I hope there is more to this discussion. Thanks again for your response. ​



​Thanks very much for your replies!

​I am trying to glue 140 lb. or 300 lb Arches acid free watercolor paper on a masonite panel  6" square.  What type of acid free adhesive do you recommend?  Thanks

​I can't really speak to the chemistry, but hazardous waste regulations and protocols are determined on a local level (usually city or county) so the best thing to do is contact your county or local hazardous waste disposal site and find out exactly how they would like you to handle it.  If possible have them contain it for you unless they can provide instructions and you have all the proper personal protective equipment including gloves, goggles and a respirator (or proper ventilation).  It sounds like from what you are describing you may need a respirator rated for oils, particulates and the specific chemicals. Gloves are specific to the chemical too. I would also find out from them the proper storage containers for this kind of waste in the future to avoid having to transfer/handle it multiple times. 

Kerith Koss Schrager (Co-Chair, AIC Health & Safety Committee)

​Thank you so much Kristin and Sarah! I think I was worried it might be what Kristin first said, but understanding that it is just pigment is reassuring. Also, to answer your question, Kristin, the palette is one of those Sta-Wet Handy Palettes. Sarah, I can see how this would be very desirable for certain applications!

​Thank you. I now feel absolved from feeing guilty about scraping off and discarding unused paint at the end of the day.

​One more related  question. I assume that paint that is being "saved" by whatever method is drying a bit each time it is taken out and used for a day. It is possibly being mixed with other partially dried  paint on the palette, with new paint, and so on in various combinations of partially dried and fresh paint. Sometimes these mixtures would be placed over previous layer, sometimes they  would be used to start new paitnings.  Do you foresee any potential problems?

​Thank you Kristin for your quick response!

​As someone who's made panels for many years, I don't believe it's necessary to sand each application of gesso smooth before applying the next coat.  Expending energy to get a layer really smooth, only to cover that smootheness with another layer of gesso and brushmarks, never quite made sense to me (however if there is a good reason for doing so, I'm all ears...).  If significant bumps of gesso, or hairs etc. are stuck in a layer, then for sure I quickly sand to get rid of those - but mostly I just let one layer sit atop the other.  Only at the very end do I do a final sanding, to whatever degree of finish is desired.  It's a small thing, but panel making takes time - no point adding onto the process.

As noted, a belt sander will remove all your gesso, and I find orbital sanders leave swirl marks.  My preference is a vibrating sander - they work well, but be careful not to rock the pad and dig into the surface.  The dust generated is micro-fine and insidious, and some chalks contain silica (which can lead to silicosis) so wearing a good particle dust mask or respirator (rated N95 or higher) is important.

Koo Schadler

Got it.

Last one -- is Talas JADE 403 as good or better for the glueing step as acrylic medium?​

P.S. gel medium is described online as "Gel medium is a white, paste-like gel that will thicken your paint". That's why I wonder if you menat simply 'acrylic medium', which is a liquid.​

OK. But your answer brings up another question​ -- re "inform future conservators should your oil on paper need to be removed." Jade PVA glue or acrylic medium are not reversable, i.e they are permanant once dry. My intension is to have the paper and the wood panel not be separated in future, as I think of this as part of the constrcution of the painting rather than a framing method. Do you see this as a problem? 

And by 'acrylic gel medium' you mean simply fluid acrylic painting medium, matte or gloss, i.e. what is added to acrylic paint to make it more fluid? Sorry to sound picky, but I'm trying to get specific enough to be sure I'm on track! thanks. 

Two further related questions:​

First, you mention sizing or priming the paper-- I usually only prime the paper on the painting side. That's what you mean I assume?

Second, if I have birch papels that I have primed w/ several coats acrylic gesso (thinking I would paint directly on them) and then later decide mount paper on them instead, should I sand the gesso prime off and start over with a PVA sizing of bare wood? or can I proceed with the gluing paper step on the gesso-primed wood?

​Is it possible to get an email notification of new posts in this forum system?

I am following your responses with great interest!


Jeremy


​​"pre-made alkyd paints .. contain a minimum of binder," The existence of alkyd "underpainting" paints led to my incorrect assumption that one could substitute alkyd medium + paint in the first layer - so that is definitely cleared up.   I'm still a little confounded that the manufacturers recommend starting with a small amount of alkyd medium and adding more in each subsequent layer - to increase flexibility (fat content) as one would with stand oil. But, I understand that extra alkyd medium would also increase drying rate which is undesirable in successive layers.  Hmmm.

​Thanks for those clarifications, I'm always happy to learn a little more about other mediums.  Koo

​Hi Brian,

Egg yolk polymerizes to become insoluble in water, whereas gum arabic remains water soluble indefinitely, I believe - yes?  If so, does the percentage of gum arabic in a watercolor + yolk paint film mean it's more water sensitive just in the short term, or does it remain more water sensitive in the long term?  

On a slightly different tho' related note, how flexible a binder is gum arabic relative to other binders, including yolk; and does it's flexibitiy change over time (just as polyermized egg yolk becomes increasingly brittle)?

Thanks,

Koo

Hi Jeremy,

It's frustrating to me that Sennelier and the other tubed tempera manufacturers aren't more specifc about the ingredients in their paints, and what they actually are (not genuine egg tempera).   It's misleading to people who want to dip their toes into the waters of ET, only to find the paint doesn't behave, or layer, or do other things we ET enthuisasts claim ET is so good at doing.  You need to bring a slightly different set of goals and expectations to tempera grassa than you would to pure ET.  

​One more idea.  Another shortcut to egg tempera is to work with tubed watercolors.  Squeeze out a bit, add slightly less than the equivalent amount of egg yolk, combine, and you have a pretty fast and easy egg tempera paint.  The gum arabic in the watercolor will make the paint feel a wee bit greasier than pure ET (which is why you don't need to add that much yolk); but it will be less rich and greasy than the tubed temperas, with their oil content.  

Good luck.  Koo

​Dear Koo

I am only taking my first steps in egg tempera (of any sort) but it is difficult to do even that without coming across your name! Thank you for your help.

I'm a working, scientifically trained doctor - so I don't have time to spend 4 days making panels. On the other hand I certainly appreciate all the technical information which you and Brian have taken time to share. I enjoy the technical aspects of painting and sites like this are a real help.

I am aware of two different manufacturers of what they both call egg tempera. Daler-Rowney claim their formulation is from 1906, with due reference to ancient Egyptians. Sennelier claim theirs is a "centuries old egg emulsion recipe". Neither mention the addition of oil. I had assumed that there was some sort of preservative involved.

Oil paint is commonly applied to acrylic primed canvases, at least by amateurs like me. I would have thought an egg-oil mix would therefore work better on acryic gesso than pure egg tempera. It's going to depend on the percentage of oil etc. It seems surprising that Sennelier recommend canvas at all.

I have ordered a few small claybords to experiment with. If I like the medium, perhaps I shall try some home made boards and paint - retirement is not so far off!

Thank you both for your helpl.

Jeremy


Hello Jeremy,

 

As an egg tempera enthusiast I find much to address in your post, so please be patient with my long reply.  I agree with everything Brian says, but have a few more thoughts to add.

 

I've experimented with 6 different alternative grounds advertised as substitutes for traditional gesso; five come in a jar (ready to apply), one a coated panel (Clayboard).  All contain a polymer base, with the exception of one that is casein & oil based, plus added solids for more absorbency.  Many are advertised as "ideal" for egg tempera.  In my extensive experiments (applying paint using a variety of working methods atop each ground) not one performed as well as true gesso for egg tempera.  All, to varying degrees, were difficult to sand; made accumulation of paint layers (one of the charms of egg tempera) difficult, in some cases nearly impossible; were prone to paint lifting, digging holes; made it hard to apply "petite lacs" (floated puddles of paint). On a scale of 1 to 10 in terms of how well a ground allows a painter to make the most of egg tempera's possibilities, I score true gesso a "10" and these 6 alternative grounds anywhere from "2" to "8".  

 

The biggest drawback to polymer-based gessoes is that they cannot match the absorbency of traditional gesso, and absorbency is critical for controlling the water content in tempera paint.  Keep in mind that the alternative polymer grounds I tested are designed specifically for egg tempera, so regular acrylic gesso has even less absorbency, and thus is even more problematic for ET, in my experience. 

 

As for tubed egg tempera paint, it's important to understand (as I think you do) that they are essentially a different medium than pure, homemade egg tempera.  As Brian notes, tubed tempera paints are egg and oil emulsions (also known as tempera grassa). Tempera grassa shares some similarities to pure ET but also has some very different working properties.  So while the tubed temperas are perfectly fine paints to work with, and address the challenge of making paint from scratch, it should be understood that in using them you have sort of left the world of true egg tempera and are working with a different medium.

 

One of the characteristics of the tubed temperas is that they are a bit "greasier" than pure ET (because of the oil, as well as other additives).  So if you start with a slicker, greasier version of ET, and then try to paint it upon a much less absorbent ground, acrylic gesso – well, you've created very challenging working conditions.  The paint tends not to dry as quickly, slip, slide, lift, holes appear.  In no way does tubed egg tempera on acrylic gesso approximate the experience of pure ET paint on a wonderfully receptive true gesso ground.

 

All of the above refers only to working properties; I haven't even addressed longevity.  The paint manufacturers and conservators I've spoken with are mixed regarding the durability of ET atop acrylic gesso, it's a complicated subject too long to address in this post, but most feel ET adheres better to true gesso in the long term and my experiences confirms this.  Regardless of the ground, as Brian notes, egg yolk is a binder that grows brittle with age, so ideally you should always work on a rigid support if you are painting either in pure ET or an egg oil emulsion (egg oil emulsions have a predominance of yolk as a binder; versus oil egg emulsions, which have a predominance of oil and are a bit more flexible).

 

I don't mean to be unsympathetic to the challenges of making panels and paint from scratch.  I totally understand those practices are not for everyone.  I only mean to be clear that, in my 20+ years experience as a full time tempera painter and instructor, there is a big difference between pure ET on true gesso vs. tubed egg oil emulsion paint on acrylic gesso.

 

So, there are several options.   You can continue working as you have, accept the challenges/limitations of tubed ET on acrylic gesso, and develop a working method that minimizes challenges, i.e. do a very minimal accumulation of layers.  If this is genuinely your style, than go for it – but if it's merely an accommodation to get the paint and ground to behave, I'm not sure it's worth it.

 

Or, you could work with one of the alternative grounds advertised as suitable for ET.  The working properties aren't nearly as good as true gesso but are at least better than regular acrylic gesso.

 

Or, you could buy ready-made, true gesso panels.  The commercial options are very few and expensive, I know, but perhaps worth it in the long run versus the frustration of a misbehaving or limited painting experience.

 

You could also learn to make true gesso panels.  I'm not trying to twist anyone's arm, but just to be clear an experienced gesso maker can produce 16' square feet of panels in 3 to 4 days.  I know, it takes time to become experienced and not everyone has the interest – but it's not really as laborious as it is sometimes made out to be (unless, of course, you really don't want to do it!).

 

Good luck – egg tempera is a wonderful medium and I hope you find a way to work with it.

 

Koo Schadler

  

​Thank you! This is very helpful. Any info on soaking?

​Thank you for your very prompt and informative answer.

It is what I feared!

I have only located two companies in the UK who make panels with real gesso, one of whom does not list prices on the website.

My irritation with this is compounded by the paucity of technical information on the Sennelier website. Golden and Winsor-Newton are so much better in this respect - but don't do egg tempera.

Thanks again for your helpl

Jeremy

​How about sprays like "Bookkeeper" (contains methoxyl magnesium methyl carbonate) or soaking in some sort of chemical solution?

I use the Benkol alcohol, it is very good. And, as you say, I always test out a shellac before applying to a work of art. Thanks for your helpful comments.

I'm not experienced with oil-based gesso, but I've been making traditional chalk and glue gesso for decades - and for that it is important (as I am guessing it is for an oil-based gesso as well) to consider the glue. Ideally, the glue should be 100% collagen, which is generally the most elastic and strong.  Once hydrated, a glue should be refrigerated and, even when refrigerated, should be used within a few days up to a week or so (being an organic substance, if a hydrated glue sits out for too long it starts to break down).  Finally, in my experience it's very important not to overheat the glue. If glue (or gesso) gets hotter than about 65 c., or 150 f. the heat will break down the glue proteins.  Always work with a double boiler; always first heat the water in the double boiler without the glue in it, than take the double boiler off the burner before adding your glue (in other words, never have either your glue or gesso directly atop a heat source, even in a double boiler bath).  A good glue doesn't need much heat to dissolve.  I never allow my gesso to get warmer than I can comfortably dip my finger into (about warm tap water).  If a glue is compromised in any of the ways above, it can (in my experience) potentially cause cracking.

The other primary reason a traditional chalk and glue gesso cracks is if the ratio of glue is too high.  The ratio has some variability: for example, I prefer 1 part glue to 16 parts water (then I combine 1 part of this glue water mix with 1.5 parts chalk). Other people prefer slightly stronger or weaker glue formulations, but at some point, if the ratio gets any too strong - above about 1 part glue to 12 parts water - this creates too strong a gesso, it pulls apart and cracks.   However I'm talking about a pure chalk and glue ground, not an oil ground, so these ratios probably aren't relative (since oil imparts more flexibility).  I don't mean to comment on the precise recipe you gave,  I only mean to say that whatever recipe you follow, be aware that too much glue at some point can also cause cracking. 

​Thanks as always, K.  I did do a search on zinc but didn't find anything on specific precentage allowances of zinc in mixtures ... so your answer was pretty much as I expected. If I ever win a lottery grand prize I'll consider funding some art material studies so we can get more definitive answers on questions like this. :-)  

In the previous question about Denatured Alcohol, as a solvent for shellac I did not speak about drying time but predictable results will come when proven preparation (formulas) are followed with an understanding that weather and heat conditions (Shellac.net) will have an effect. It would be hard to state emphatically what that effect would be. This is why I always run tests of my materials before I touch a work of art. The short answer would be that the drying time of the shellac would vary and that "orange peeling" might or some other effect would occur, and maybe not in the short time. Martin Kotler, SAAM
I am not a specialist in "Shellac" but have made many shellac finishes in my Frame Lab over the years and have found numerous examples to formula problems and shellac preparation can vary even to time of year, summer in Washington, DC with high humidity. Your question about denatured ethanol alcohol (methylated spirits) is valid and unfortunately not all Denatured Alcohols are equal and there is no purity standard, if you refer to "Shellac.net" for example you will find that the "percentage of alcohol" sold over the counter will vary greatly and the best being Select 190 proof which can be purchased from H. Behlen & Bro. and Behlen Benkol, shellac solvent. As Brian referred to; The problem is not the alcohol used as to the "water" content in your denatured alcohol, which works as a "retarder" as water evaporates much slower. How one handles their materials is important, I always "decant" all solvents from their main containers, which is my practice in my Conservation Lab. Your question did not refer to what "Shellac" you are preparing as many shellac products vary and some have short shelf lives. For example; in preparing stick-lac, seed-lac and button-lac shellac's one should use a fine cheesecloth bag, when preparing all others the mesh bag can be omitted. Know that "White Shellac" has a short shelf life and should be discarded. I always run test's on materials to see the effects before I touch a work of art. Martin Kotler, SAAM 2017
Thank you for the advice, everybody. Regarding orbital sanders - what's the recommended speed (rpm)? They all seem to be pretty high (10000 rpm), so I was wondering whether an electric drill (700 rpm max) with a sanding disc attachment would be easier to use without destroying the surface.
Thank you for your submission Comment: Dear Koo, It is a fine idea to put tempera paintings under glass (WITH SEPARATORS so the glass does not touch the tempera surface). Andrew Wyeth sometimes used exposed white gesso as part of his composition, and sadly one of these works was in the home of a heavy smoker, so as you suggest, the hygroscopic gesso absorbed the yellow-brown cigarette tar. Also, as you say, glass prevents scratching, etc. However, it is VERY important that the framing-under-glass package allows for ventilation (as Brian suggests) because if the framed tempera goes through changing temperature and humidity conditions, especially high humidity or condensation, without ventilation, the tempera paint can mold. I've seen two cases where sealing up with Marvelseal actually caused mold in a painting that had no mold previously--both happened in private homes where the environment fluctuated. Fuzzy gray mold spores are very different in appearance from the natural egg efflorescence powder or sparkles (stearic and palmitic acids) which can be brushed off readily. Putting a painting under glass does not seem to have any impact on whether the egg tempera effloresces. The Wadsworth Atheneum has three Andrew Wyeth temperas; one is under glass, one is not, and one is in a full silica gel climate control framing package. All three apparently effloresce about equally. We think efflorescence is exacerbated by the tempera undergoing changes in humidity when it is being created or is very "young." Best regards and keep painting your beautiful works. I love seeing them. Joyce Hill Stoner [P.S. please call me "Joyce"!]
Dear Koo, It is a fine idea to put tempera paintings under glass (WITH SEPARATORS so the glass does not touch the tempera surface). Andrew Wyeth sometimes used exposed white gesso as part of his composition, and sadly one of these works was in the home of a heavy smoker, so as you suggest, the hygroscopic gesso absorbed the yellow-brown cigarette tar. Also, as you say, glass prevents scratching, etc. However, it is VERY important that the framing-under-glass package allows for ventilation (as Brian suggests) because if the framed tempera goes through changing temperature and humidity conditions, especially high humidity or condensation, without ventilation, the tempera paint can mold I've seen two cases where sealing up with Marvelseal actually caused mold in a painting that had no mold previously--both happened in private homes where the environment fluctuated. Fuzzy gray mold spores are very different in appearance from the natural egg efflorescence powder or sparkles (stearic and palmitic acids) which can be brushed off readily. Putting a painting under glass does not seem to have any impact on whether the egg tempera effloresces. The Wadsworth Atheneum has three Andrew Wyeth temperas; one is under glass, one is not, and one is in a full silica gel climate control framing package. All three apparently effloresce about equally. We think efflorescence is exacerbated by the tempera undergoing changes in humidity when it is being created or is very "young." Best regards and keep painting your beautiful works. I love seeing them. Joyce Hill Stoner [P.S. please call me "Joyce"!]
An initial quick light sanding with 150 grit will open the surface, follow this with a damp wipe to raise any fibers, then finish with the 220 grit. Never use a belt sander these excel at stock removal and this is not what you`re after, use an orbital sander instead. Never use worn 150 grit as a substitute for 220 grit, it will scratch. The damp wipe in between helps to knock down any fibers that would otherwise stand up during any water-based product application.
Hi! There really isn’t a way to make newspapers less acidic, since the paper is generally manufactured with wood pulp and is therefore inherently acidic. However, there are things you can do to slow down the degradation process while making sure that the acidic newspaper fragments are less harmful to your collage. Start by using high-quality, buffered 100% rag paper as your primary support; buffered papers have an alkaline reserve which helps to keep the pH higher (more basic), and therefore slows down degradation due to acidity. You don’t mention which adhesive you use, but using something like wheat or rice starch paste will help to avoid damage from a potentially acidic adhesive. Once your collage is completed, store it in acid-free, buffered folders and try to keep it in a cool, dry place. If it’s on exhibition make sure that UV glass and buffered mat board are used for display, and keep it out of direct sunlight. These are simple things, but they will keep your collage in the best condition possible. (Gillian Marcus, Paper/Dry Media Moderator)
Thank you for answering this question. I will try out the test panel as you suggest. I may also try applying gesso coats on both sides but use a thinner formula (slightly more size to gesso - the recipes in various texts seem to allow some flexibility in how much whiting is used) and hope this will help with a smoother application, but this will obviously mean more coats of gesso to cover the panel sufficiently.
I would not suggest having exposed glue on the back of the panel. It is the most reactive material used in easel painting and could respond severely to changes in RH. It is also very attractive to bugs when it does not contain a filler or pigment. Possibly you could paint over the dried final glue coat with an alkyd paint to seal in the glue but this would still leave an extremely thick and reactive layer below the surface. I know of a number of tempera painters who coat the back of their panels with an acrylic dispersion or alkyd paint layer to minimize water absorption but this would not serve exactly the same function that the gesso on the reverse does for you. If it were me, I would prepare a test panel with alkyd already dried on the back and apply the gesso to the front. Let it dry face up and not against a wall like you probably do when you gesso both sides. Check for warping after the whole is dry. If not, go with this procedure. If the panel does warp try doing the same but paint a layer of acrylic dispersion paint or what people call acrylic gesso on the back after you finish gessoing the front and before leaving the panel to dry over night. Hopefully the water in the acrylic dispersion will equalize the tension. If this does not work you should probably go back to your original laborious procedure. Others on the forum may be able to weigh in on this. Brian Baade
I'd like to confirm a piece of advice I've read on another forum regarding sanding - supposedly "light sanding" means that the weight of an average person's hand dragging the sandpaper is enough. Is that true?
Another great resource is The Getty in LA. They have adult education classes, artists' demos, public talks, many of which focus on traditional arts and practices.
A great question, as Kristin says. You might consider the "The Prince's School of Traditional Art" in London. The "Sacred Arts Institute" at Enders Island, Mystic, CT is another option (although a Catholic Institute, you need not be a Catholic to study there). Also, working in egg tempera is a good way to understand materials and methods because pure tempera paint is not commercially manufactured, so tempera artists must make traditional gesso panels and paint, starting from scratch, on a regular basis. An icon workshop might be a good option.
Alright, thank you for the advice.
Thanks, Kristen - that sounds perfect. I'll give it a try. Koo
So is there a way to tell how much sanding is enough? Usually sanding lightly doesn't really remove the gloss from the HDF I use (there's only a couple scratches visible when looking at an angle), but the only way to really make them matte is by sanding so much that the fibers start sticking up. Should I assume instead that the invisible abrasions from light sanding are enough, even if they don't completely remove the gloss?
There is always a chance, slim, but it exists whenever introducing any foreign material to another. Because the element of water, and location near the artwork (both acrylic paint and water-based size) a proper period of time should be allowed before actually using the mat and I assume final framing. You can always introduce a secondary 2 ply acid free mat attached between the bottom of the over mat and the artwork, this will reduce the chance of any contact. Martin Kotler
Hi Brian, This is very interesting; the Lascaux fixative might be a good way to apply an isolating layer to egg tempera, yes? I don't suppose there is any way to know the resin to solvent ratio, but I presume it's a fairly thin mix to be sprayable. The MSDS says it contains xylene, so I would be sure to wear a respirator and ventilate well. Would it be appreciably better to make B-72 from scratch, as needed, versus buying it in a spray can (and not knowing how old it is)? How affected by age is B-72? Any other considerations I should keep in mind? I've been making B-72 myself and brushing it on as an isolator, but I like the idea of it being sprayable and ready made. Thanks, Koo
The acrylic ground I use is usually touch dry within two hours, sometimes even less. Provided the surface gloss is gone and there are no signs of lifting when dragging my hand over the surface, would it be fine to apply the next layer?
Thanks very much Brian. Your advice is appreciated and, apparently, much needed - I would have definitely gone ahead and merrily overused the aluminum hydroxide in everything I could think of! I will start looking into these calcite/oil mediums. Thanks once again.
I would like to offer my experience in regards to washing oil and yellowing of the oil film. I believe it is a mistake to say that oils will not yellow if washed with water or alcohol. From all my trials with doing just about any procedure written from Da Vinci's skinning of walnuts, water washing, sunthickening, charcoal purification, bone dust, etc; the oil mediums all yellow with time. The only method I found that virtually stops this yellowing is heat bodying the oil to a very high temperature for an extremely long time (of which I am still working on). I have found the water washing sunthickening process accelerates the yellowing of the oil the most, and as a stand alone method in regards to yellowing I would not use it. My experience in this area has involved about 300 different processes over the last 8 years, just to find a non yellowing oil medium. Regards Sam
Thanks for your input, Brian. I am always appreciative when Dr. Stoner chimes in as well. By the way, I coat the back of my panels with alkyd house paint, as a moisture barrier.
Thank you Brian. I usually use Gamblin's Solvent-Free Fluid, which is 100% fat. The Gamblin technical staff are careful to advise a twenty-percent maximum, however the paint is applied. I try to keep it at around ten percent. Normally I oil-out the area of the painting to be glazed, rubbing the Gamblin medium in with a finger and dabbing off the excess, rather than adding extra medium to the paint itself; the slightly more slippery surface makes it easier to brush the paint out thinly, and ( I hope ) there is less medium involved overall. Still, it sounds like I should be cutting the Gamblin SFF with solvent when oiling out. If I could trouble you with one more question : an Australian company makes a clear oil paint which is Alumina Hydrate in sunflower oil. It seems like a good way to add transparency to glazes and titanium whites, without worrying too much about amounts and ratios, as we have to with mediums. But are there any issues with Alumina Hydrate I should be aware of, and should I be wary of overusing it?
You mention oil and alkyd, but with acrylic ground, is it fine to apply the next layer after the previous one is dry to the touch?
Dr. Francis Lestingi has recommended using kaolin to "dust", rather than talc - it is much finer, and has none of the additives present in talcum powder (such as baby powder). This is an effective technique for gilding on most substrates. The excess can be vacuumed off, or brushed off with velvet cloth or a mop, or even washed, depending on the substrate. -Naomi Lipsky
Regarding my question above about a comparison of the Density of The fluid paints, I am mixed media and collage artist and use pours. I would like to have more control by knowing this simple fact.
Hello, sorry for the late reply again. I think I know which hydrophobic paints you're talking about - I would presume that anything stain-proof would also be paint-proof. In any case, the remark about simplicity made me wonder if casein extracted from milk would do. (probably too brittle) On the commercial side, I have heard of people using a PVA and plaster of paris or chalk or talcum powder mix, but I remember reading that PVA is only good for sizing and won't be a durable ground. Do you have any information about this? Regarding the B-I-N shellac - the prices of it where I live turn out to be actually higher than Royal Talens's artist's acrylic ground.
Alright, thanks for all the explanations.
Thank you. Should I assume that the boards I've primed (with acrylic ground) without sizing them first are not good for painting? Also, if I over-sand them and have the fibers sticking up, should I assume they are not good either, regardless of future sizing and priming?
Thanks so much de
Hello, sorry for the delay in the reply. I checked out the articles and they've provided some useful information. I think your choice of wording is curious when discussing the research done on Diebenkorn's pieces. You say that "One of the things that is interesting is that the most problematic paintings all come from a middle period when Diebenkorn had turned from using artists' acrylic gesso to using various commercial materials as alternative primings, and that when he returned to acrylic gesso the cracking that is seen also subsided". First of all, it is not true that he "turned from using artists' arcylic gesso" - from Figure 2. on page 89, it's clear that there is a layer of "acrylic gesso" applied on top of the synthetic resin in a painting that would later develop cracks (No. 111). Second of all, your wording sounds as if you could be trying to imply that the problem lies in his use of the resin (likely Rhoplex AC-33) for the priming stage: he started using it - paintings developed cracks. However, this omits an important detail. The problem, as the paper clearly states, was that he useda combination of rather brittle-drying alkyd paints on top of a flexible (and comparatively thick) layer of resin. A reader who doesn't check the paper might develop the wrong impression. The rest of the information is quite useful - especially the part about UV testing. Since I'm painting on rigid, thick supports, I won't be doing any folding tests. All in all, what I got from this is that it's best to simply test adhesion and wetting and choose the more expensive options (this is also, from what I've read, the case with commercial paint quality) when it comes to priming, and to do what's within one's means. The rest is largely out of anyone's control.
Thank you for the very informative answer. Just one more thing - should I sand the fiberboards after applying the sizing to increase the adhesion of the ground?
It would certainly be useful to hear more about this, if only to know what to look out for/how to estimate the quality of "acrylic gesso". Sadly, for practical and economic reasons, an exterior acrylic is sometimes the only acrylic ground one can get a hold of, so it would also be good to hear of any alternative recommendations that wouldn't require specialist shopping - or at least a way of testing the available grounds so that regular people without access to a lab can estimate the quality of their materials. Is there anything similar to the acrylic tape adhesion test for grounds?
Thank you, Brian, your answer addressed my question perfectly!
I am a landscape painter in Memphis, TN. I work primarily on linen or cotton mounted directly to panels, either plywood, hardboard or gator board. I often make my own panels, but can highly recommend Wind River Arts as a supplier: http://www.windriverarts.com/canvas_boards.htm They have a variety of canvases and supports as well. They use an archival BEVA adhesive. My favorite panels that they make are the 359 and 350DP, which both use an alkyd primer. It's more absorbent than the typical oil or acrylic primer, so during plein air painting, my initial block in will dry quickly, so I can work on top of it. I hope this helps. Matthew Lee http://matthewleestudio.com
I thought you would be interested in an update: I received a reply this morning from Prismacolor. They tell me that they have never tested the Col-Erase pencils for lightfastness, so that's why you couldn't find the ratings. CPSA will add them to our list of pencils to be tested. Thanks again for your question and for making lightfastness an important consideration in your art process.
Very much appreciated! I could imagine that there is another pigment that does the same as graphite does, but doesn't need as much binder. Perhaps something like charcoal just does the thing, I could try and find out.... I'll let it know!
I hope these questions are relevant to the original query : 1. Virgil Elliott suggested a titanium white alkyd, with no zinc oxide, might be the best we could do in lieu of lead white, regarding durability. Is it reasonable to assume an alkyd binder would go some way to improving the 'soft, spongy' film made by pure titanium? 2. Similarly, would an alkyd binder counteract the problems of titanium-zinc white to some extent? 3. Holbein makes a "Ceramic White" which uses Strontium Titanate. Would this be worth considering as an alternative to titanium white - again, just with regards to durability - or is the pigment too new, and its use too limited, to say either way? Thanks in advance for any advice.
Brian, your answer talks about paint films that "have not had a chance to go through the drying process" - how dry should they be? Is touch dry OK? (Assuming the layer is not impasto). Or should the film be 'hard dry') 6 months)??
No worries at all. Thanks so much.
My apologies...for some reason I thought you were asking about the Verithins! Let me try again. First, yes, as you note, there will be some variances in LF ratings among pencils that use the same pigment amounts/ratios but combine them with different types/amounts of fillers and binders. That's why I noted only that the results could be "very similar": they won't all be the same. This will be especially true for very light colors, where the pigment load is not as high. (That's why watercolor pencils test better dry than wet.) As for the Col-Erase pencils: in order to make them erasable, they would need (at least) to reduce the amount of wax in the binder and use more "forgiving" pigments, both of which could adversely affect lightfastness. CPSA has never tested them, and, as you note, there's no test data on the Prismacolor site. However, that site does state that the Col-Erase pencils are best used for "illustration, animation, and accounting," which (to me) implies that they are not intended for fine art applications where longevity is desired. If you then compare the RGB and CMYK values for these pencils to those with similar names in other Prismacolor lines, it's clear that the formulations are very different. I don't feel, therefore, that the Premier LF results would be valid -- even as an assumption -- for the Col-Erase. But if you just work in generalities (which is all we have at the moment), we know that earth colors (the umbers, ochres, siennas. etc) are very stable colors, so I feel confident in saying you're probably safe using the black, brown, and terra cotta. Some reds and violets, however, can be fugitive, so in the absence of hard data, I think I would avoid the carmine, vermilion, scarlet, and tuscan red. That's all I have at the moment. I've sent off a request for LF ratings for the Col-Erase pencils to Prismacolor (but note that, given the pencils' suggested uses, it's possible Prismacolor has never tested them under ASTM D6901-16) and I've also sent out an email to some knowledgeable cp sources: if anyone sends me helpful information, I will post it here. And apologies again for the mix-up!
Also, prismacolor does have lightfastness charts for soft core pencils and art stixs, and the verithins, and there are differences, for example a canary yellow has a 3 rating as a soft core pencil, and a 2 rating as a verithin. There are no lightfast charts for the Col-erase pencils. So just a bit confused.
Sorry I don't know if I was clear, I was asking about the col-erase line specifically. Would the colors in the col- erase line be using the same pigments as well? How does the erasable formulation affect lightfastness, if at all?
This is great question! The Verithin pencils are made with the same pigments as their counterparts in the Prismacolor Premier line: the only difference is in the type and amount of binder and fillers used, which make the Verithins harder than the sofa-core Premiers (so they are better at very fine detail work). Since the pigments are the same, though, you are, in general, safe in assuming that Prismacolor's lightfast ratings for the Premier pencils will be very similar for Verithin pencils that have the same color names. The lightfast tests that Prismacolor performs under ASTM standard D6901-15 are more rigorous than the tests CPSA performs under ASTM 5383-16, so using the information that Prismacolor provides on their webiste is an excellent choice. If you are concerned that the colors you want to use do not rate in the "excellent" or "very good" range, you can at least try to increase their longevity by working only on acid-free paper, framing with conservation-quality materials, using a UV-blocking final fixative, and framing with UV-blocking glass or plexiglass. Hope this helps! Deborah Maklowski, CPSA, CPX, Product Research Director, CPSA.
Thanks. Sorry for the doubles on the color list.
A little bump :-) . So it seems there is no simple solution to my problem....?
I use apply two coats of GAC 100, for wooden panels when oil painting.
Natural Pigments makes lead white using the method used prior to the twentieth century known as the “stack process” or “old Dutch method”. The method we use is based on a thorough examination of literature from the nineteenth century and earlier describing what are essentially minor variations of the stack process. This is explained in much more detail in my article “Stack Process White Lead: Historical Method of Manufacture”, which can be found here: http://www.naturalpigments.com/art-supply-education/white-lead-historical/. I saw the video by Master Pigments, and while the method is similar to the stack process, the cleaning process shown in the original video of washing the raw product and allowing the wash water to flow down the drain is irresponsible. Cleaning the flakes of lead white is the most time-consuming process, but a very important aspect of making lead white, since impurities such as lead acetate will adversely affect the paint film. At Natural Pigments we devoted much time to study and develop a completely closed system of washing and purifying the lead white flakes. We developed a closed-loop system where the waste water flows into various tanks to allow sedimentation of impurities from cleaning, and several filter stages that include bone ash and marble chips columns that absorb dissolved and suspended particles of lead. We monitor the waste water from the cleaning process for impurities and lead content after filtering, which is then recycled and used again and again to wash lead white. No water is ever returned to sewers. This ensures we not only remove impurities but we do not contaminate public water ways. Any solid waste from the process, and for that matter our entire company, is disposed of according to federal and state regulations in the United States. —George O’Hanlon, Natural Pigments
Calcite is a common constituent of sedimentary rocks, such as limestone. Calcite is also the primary mineral in metamorphic marble. Chalk is a form of limestone. Hence, marble and chalk are all forms of the mineral calcite. There are also human-made forms of calcium carbonate, known in the industry as precipitated calcium carbonate or PCC. Calcite, barite, kaolin, talc, silica and bentonite are all white pigments of low refractive index (less than 2). They are also known as extender or filler pigmentsin the paint industry, because they do not add to the opacity of paint, but can be used to increase the bulk of paint without lowering the pigment volume concentration (PVC). They also add important properties to paint, such as hardness, abrasion resistance, decreasing bulk weight, etc. Extender pigments are effective in bulking artists’ paint and adjusting the opacity, and a much more effective means of decreasing opacity by adding medium or oil to paste paint, which lowers the PVC. However, I must also caution about the excessive use of extender pigments in paint, because if used excessively they will result in more pronounced yellowing of the paint film. The best way to use extender pigments without increasing the PVC of the paint and the subsequent danger of creating an underbound paint film, is to grind the extender pigment in oil to form a stiff paste prior to adding to paint. —George O’Hanlon, Natural Pigments
Although the cost of lead white is higher than titanium white, it is still within a reasonable price range for most artists to afford, and its benefits of use have already been stated in this forum. There is no alternative to the effectiveness of lead white. Titanium white does not react with the fatty acids in drying oils as does lead white to stabilize the oil, thereby extending the life of the paint film. In regards to the practice of cleaning linseed or flaxseed oil by artists, it is erroneous to believe that individual artists can provide a superior drying oil than industry does today. The current practice by the industry begins with 1) washing the oil with an alkali, such as sodium hydroxide, 2) filtering the washed oil through a filtering aid, such as diatomaceous earth, 3) chilling the oil to remove wax, and finally allowing it to settle in tanks for several months. At every stage the properties of the oil are monitored for color, free fatty acid (FFA) content, turbidity and iodine level. It is ignorant to assume the processes recommended by artists can produce something with superior qualities. Oils washed by artists are usually more oxidized and without control of such properties as FFA content that the yellowing of home processed oils is likely more pronounced. I agree with Brian Baade’s comments in regards to the claims made by Lois Velazquez about the use of calcium carbonate in oil painting. The claims in his book are unsubstantiated by him. However, calcium carbonate was used as an adulterant in paint in previous centuries, likely to bulk paint and in this application can be effective. Some caution has to be exercised when using white pigments of low refractive index (less than 2), such as calcium carbonate, because if used excessively they will result in more pronounced yellowing of the paint film. —George O’Hanlon, Natural Pigments
It was good enough for Rembrandt and especially Velazquez. Also refer to the Rembrandt research project. Many old masters added calcite to their paint ; even powdered glass was sometimes used.
Dear Richard ,the correct answer is none of the aforementioned . The easiest way to to handle this problem is to get your hands dirty as the old masters did ( or their apprentices ). Lead white you can easily make for yourself...ref_watch the Master pigments channel on YouTube. It is very, very cheap but time consuming ( 3 months ). Secondly, with the problems of the oils, simply wash and filter them as Velazquez did with alcohol and fibre...ref_see calcitesunoil website by louis velasquez of san diego. In addition to washing the oil, calcite can be added to it where it becomes a rough ,tough material ; this is what Rembrandt used in thicker passages. Another benefit is with this oil is that it is easy to bleach and thicken, so you can have a real stand oil. Another benefit is that you can use the washed oil ( thin ) to dilute the thick oil without adding solvents. Calcite added to the paint extends it so you can add it to titanium white ground in a washed oil to make it into a translucent mixing white and leave the zinc white out of it altogether...very simple. At this time , I am aware of one company that does it all for you_Tennyson oils in Nova Scotia. Cheers all PS the washed oil does not yellow over time.
I have read some comments by conservators who have opened up several pastels that were framed in full contact with the glass and hung that way in excess of 80 years and every one of them came out pristine. I am convinced that despite the naysayers this is the best method of framing pastels that is out there. I have not found a single instance of mold growth myself or mentioned with this type of framing. I believe it is important to understand that a piece of paper covered with mineral dust and clay particles (pastels) is going to behave very differently than plain paper or paper with inks or gum arabic / watercolors on them.
Octanoic acid( lead salt) advisable in safflower based cremnitz?
Related question: One of the cremnitz whites in safflower oil contains
Related question: One of the cremnitz whites in safflower oil contains
Thank you, Kristin Would it be better to create a "spongy" paint film with pure titanium in linseed oil, or a harder paint film with >90% titanium white and < 10% zinc in linseed ? I understand that the trace amounts of zinc also aid the titanium particles to disperse evenly and to avoid exuding linseed oil. Which is the greater evil, the spongy film or one with any zinc in it?
Thanks guys, for the informative answers. I'll definitely get that book. I have gottten some natural red chalk from kremer pigments, I'll check out their other offerings as well.
Here is information on antique drawing materials from someone who has done some great research.http://www.timothydavidmayhew.com/new-pages/draw-media.html
This is only anecdotal evidence. I have the first painting that I ever did as a student, fifty years ago. It was painted on a support of acrylic gesso primed untempered Masonite. The Masaonite has suffered from ill treatment, but the paint itself is in good condition, and this in spite of the fact that the painting has been in my unheated barn for thirty years. I would also note that it was painted without regard to fat over lean rules and the teacher had us add cobalt siccative both to the white on our palettes and to our medium cups.
Thanks for sharing your extensive experience, Joyce. Very interesting about efflorescence - I didn't know about the RH influence. My paintings are in relatively stable RH while I'm working on them and, as you say, small. I'll do a survey among my ET colleagues and see who has experienced efflorescence and if there are correlations to size and RH. In fact I don't want a visible coating; I meant merely that I like how a quick drying coating doesn't sink in, seems to coat more the surface more evenly, but ideally I'd prefer it to be completely clear. So I will experiment with B72 in the 4-5% ratio you suggest. Thanks a million for yours and Brian's help. Koo
oops, should have put my name with the previous comment-- from Joyce Hill Stoner 20 January 2017
Dear Koo, if you like rapid evaporation, B-72 in acetone would be good. 4-5% B-72 in acetone or xylene becomes pretty invisible but nicely retards efflorescence. I hadn't realized you WANTED a visible coating. You could experiment with thicker B-72, say 15%. I worry about the bleached shellac because if something goes wrong with it, it would be much more difficult to remove--B-72 not so much. I had a phone interview with Paul Cadmus some time ago, and he said his temperas NEVER effloresced. We don't quite know why some do and some don't. With Andrew Wyeth's temperas, the ones that effloresced the most were ones he took back and forth between Maine and Chadds Ford WHILE he was painting them. Michael Schilling of the Getty hypothesized that temperas that undergo fluctuations in RH during their creation might be more likely to effloresce. That fits with what AW's works exhibited. Since your paintings (I believe) tend to be smaller, you may not be carrying them around to different environments and they may not be as likely to effloresce. Rothko's Houston Chapel black shapes carried out in egg tempera (to make them more velvety) effloresce a lot-- and being large and subject to changes in RH, that makes sense in that case.
I've been using the polyester canvas from Utrecht (now the same one is offered by Dick Blick) for several years now and it is a dream. I've been adhering it to cradled wood panels using acrylic gel and then priming with acrylic dispersion ground and painting with oils. I'm Canadian so ordering from the US is a bit of a pain with customs etc (I actually ship it to an address in the States and drive over the border to pick it up) but worth it. It is cheaper than linen, thicker, has a more even surface and stays tight (as I mentioned I adhere it to panel now, but in the past I've stretched it on regular stretcher bars and the polyester canvas is still as tight today as when I stretched it about 5 years ago). If you are concerned about longevity I think paying the shipping to New Zealand would be worth it.
Thanks for chiming in Joyce, I appreciate that you have lots of experience in this area. I actually prefer the rapid dry time of shellac because it sets so quickly that is sits more evenly atop the surface of egg tempera and is less likely to sink in; but I also know, as you say Brian, that overlapping strokes can be a problem (although less so with a very thin coating, and as an isolator). It's taken me a while to get adept at shellac, not get those strokes, which is one reason I am reluctant to switch. But I understand the benefits of synthetics and will practice more with B72 (in both solvents, to see which works best for me) and Molwillith. Joyce, have you found that a coating over tempera is a pretty good guarantee, as far as you know, to stop efflorescence? Does the type of coating matter? (FYI, I've never seen efflorescence thus far in my paintings, and almost always coated them with some sort of varnish). Koo
Hello to Koo and to Brian, I use B-72 in xylene because I work on both tempera paintings and oil paintings. Acetone is too strong a solvent to use near oil paint as it could pick up the oil paint if the coating were brushed on and especially if the oil paint is young or even elderly but mixed with varnish. Thus, my B-72 is in stock solutions mixed with xylene. [I just came out of the spray booth having brushed about 5% Paraloid B-72 in xylene onto a large painting from which I removed a fairly comprehensive efflorescence by brushing in 2011 (but did not coat with B-72 at that time). It has returned about 6 years later, now with even more efflorescence so I have now coated it and hope it won't need to return in another 6 years! Acetone also evaporates more quickly than xylene, which I would find disconcerting, but it is much less toxic than xylene so that's a good thing. Conservators like to be able to remove coatings if something goes wrong; regular shellac does usually come up with alcohols (which may or may not be safe near the paint film) but we've found several 19th-century American paintings with bleached shellac coatings [verified by our analytical lab] and those coatings won't come up with ANYTHING we tested; they had to be left in place. So I would certainly prefer treating paintings coated with B-72 rather than any kind of shellac 10 to 80 years from now [more than 10 I would probably have to bequeath to my former students.] Tempera is much safer near acetone than oil or oil-resin paints, in any case. Joyce Hill Stoner
It's very helpful that you can put us artists in touch with so many conservators. The consensus seems negative regarding shellac and paintings, albeit there seems to be an acknowledged and meaningful difference between thick, multiple layers of toned shellac as a top coat versus a very thin and dilute layer of bleached shellac as an isolator that's not intended to be removable (the latter perhaps contributing no more yellowing than the oil in oil paint?). Still, I get that shellac is problematic and will make an effort to transition to synthetics. I need more practice with them, but like most tempera artist I produce a very limited inventory of work and it's hard to sacrifice pieces to experiments, but I'll keep at it. If you know of any published studies or personal experiences among your conservator and/or painter friends regarding the behavior of B72 or Molwillith over freshly painted egg tempera, I'd be interested. I know they are well-studied and respected materials but I've occasionally run into surprises when two previously unfamiliar materials are layered atop on another. Thanks for all your help. Koo
Hi Brian, I use a very thin solution of 1 part bleached shellac to 8 parts alcohol and it's virtually transparent. Where I applied a more dense coating (1 shellac:4 alcohol) on my test panel, it was yellow from the start but doesn't appear to have visibly changed, but it may be that it hasn't been exposed to sufficient UV rays (it sometimes lives in a folder, for teaching purposes). I appreciate seeing your chart with its visibly yellow shellac square. I like shellac and have gotten adept at applying it, but am considering switching to B72, which conservators most often recommend to me as an isolator. I tried a solution of 1 part B72 resin to 5 parts acetone and it seemed to work well (albeit with a caveat that I'll save for another question, another time...). Dr. Stoner discussed using a 4% solution of B72 in xylene to coat some Wyeth temperas (to suppress efflorescence). I like the idea of the thinnest isolation coat possible. What would you recommend for a ratio of B72 to solvent for isolating, and is there a benefit to xylene over acetone? I need to get more practiced before applying B72 to finished paintings, which as you know take a long time in tempera - I'd hate to make a mistake or discover unanticipated complications. So more experimenting is needed, and in the meanwhile I'll stick with shellac. I understand it's an outdated practice to use it on paintings and generally frowned upon - hence my questions, to make sure I'm not doing something too terribly wrong. Thanks, Koo
Occassionally I have a large canvas that sags a bit, and very annoyingling brushstrokes hit the crossbars, especially when dealing with pregessoed linens. Keys can be used but I have found that turning the canvas face down, and spraying a generous amount of water (distilled preferable, but that is not always feasible) over the whole canvas evenly (this is important) has worked well. The canvas gets taut immediately but will sag again once dry and pushed around while painting. I use a water bottle to spot spray the corners at times to help tighten those proble areas. I will try and stretch my next large canvas using the corner in technique described in the Golden's Section on canvas stretching. Hopefully this will eliminate any sagging issues in the future. But for those traditionalists who have already stretched from the centre out, and have saggy corners, and wobbly canvases, your big water bottle or spray hose may be your best friend for now. Joanne Gervais , visual artist, Canada
Sorry, that was my first post and I anticipated having to provide ID as part of the posting process. Charles Eisener
As I use acrylics and there could be future need for repair or cleaning, I felt this issue to be worthy of resolution. Conservators may not be able to determine what you did or what was used, either for the surface preparation or the actual painting. My answer was a computer generated sheet specific to the painting, detailing the substrate, products used for substrate preparation, colour palette (including brand and pigment ID), plus the isolation coat and varnish applied after the fact. Also included is my ID number for that particular piece, date of completion, name, and email address. This sheet is folded to fit inside a shipping label protector sleeve and affixed to the acid free backing/sealing sheet on the rear surface of the stretcher frame. As such it is permanently attached to the work but does not directly contact any part of the substrate. With rigid substrates such as wood, composite, aluminum, etc. the sleeve and contents could be applied directly to the rear surface of the substrate as there is no risk of damage to the artwork on the opposite surface. These sleeves have an adhesive strip on the rear surface, but you can ignore that and apply acid free double sided tape if you prefer. I am not a professional or known artist, but feel that if somebody buys a painting from me, they still should have the right to know what materials were used and that I cared enough to provide that information up front.
I would agree with Mr Mark Golden's comments, an acrylic picture finished with a non-removable isolation coat then a final application of a removable varnish, will give a long lasting protective finish that can be manipulated both in sheen and structure to the artists required aesthetic whilst still making life easy (easier?) for the conservator. Steven Patterson (Derivan - Matisse Artist Acrylics)
Matthew Kinsey, thank you for this answer, it is indeed good to know/confirm. Should you both have advice about your priming grounds recipes, I also prove to be very interested in the subject (obviously) and I would be interested in knowning if you found some tips or a better way than another to achieve a good traditional priming ground. Awaiting your answers, S.G
Dear Brian, thank you for this very detailed answer. I would have loved exchanging with you about materials and techniques, unfortunately I am located in France. Which brings me to think that maybe that is why it may seem strange to you that I am being so picky about the way "it is being made". I find it very rare that a museum orders a copy, and when it is done, the best craftmen are asked for it. To my knowledge there is no need of a diploma. What means craftman, means traditionnal and exceptionnaly accurate techniques. This is why I am wondering how it can be that this producer is known to work for museums, and then swears to me that using staples and acrylic gesso is normal to him. I specifically chose him thinking he would know about traditional techniques. This makes me worrying a bit about the general state of craftmanship here, and what museums are asking for. I thought about arranging the canvas with tacks, but the back of the stretcher was so much perforated in all ways by the staples that it was useless. It also made me think about the real composition of the gesso they might have used, and finally I don't feel like encouraging this types of works - especially with the price asked, which was excessive for such a terrible work - which is the kind you find industrially made. I feel like I only paid the fact that it had special dimensions. About the website provided, thank you very much ! It proved to be very interesting. Publications are very hard to find on this subject in France ! Thank you again, S.G.
I recently tested Kremers white out in oil paint; in oil it makes for an opaque dull yellow-grey paint, at 2.5Y 8/1 on the munsell scale, but even with a thickening agent (wax) it slumps and wont hold its place on the canvas. The dried oil film is extremely soft and spongy and crumbles easily... I would not recommend it I'm afraid.
Thank you guys. Really appreciate it.
(And yes - the buffered tissue paper will last longer!)
If I was using some of the buffered tissue paper is that longer lasting? At least a few years before replacing?
Thank you for your response. So you're saying the main issue with stacking drawings with no interleaving is mechanical damage? Is there an increased risk of acid transferring between sheets? I always thought of it like pages in a book. If I'm careful then I haven't seen any smearing or anything. An intermediate sheet just feels like it has an extra potential to move around. I guess I don't understand how paper deteriorates. My drawing papers are always archival 100% cotton, acid/lignin free. So my feeling was that material on top of another drawing was ok. So I don't know.
No fixative, they are just stored flat on top of each other. They are also mostly small, between 7x11" and 11x14". My drawing board is usually an acid free foam board, and I figured if there's not much shuffling, then the paper the drawing is on being covered by the same kind of paper wouldn't pose much of an issue, at least not for a few months to a year or two as I try to get them sold. I am just struggling now, but want to care for my work, and don't have lots of money to invest in flat files etc. I'm not necessarily trying to preserve a collection for posterity, but care for drawings pre-sale or exhibition, and would like it to be kind of cost effective and low space. Thanks.
Thank You Sarah.
Thank you all for your help! --Diane
I prefer tacks myself, inserted on the sides of the stretcher (two rows diagonally offset for large canvases). Not only are they less potentially damaging to the fabric, tacks allow for easy removal when fine tuning distortion at the insertion points along the edges of the stretcher. I agree with the Moderator that diagonal insertion of staples is better than a row parallel to the stretcher side, not only to avoid a long stress wrinkle, but because it supports distribution of tension on the bias. Matthew Kinsey, Utrecht Art Supplies
Oil paint, mostly Gamblin brand if that helps (mars black, titanium white, umbers, siennas, ochres). Application is mostly opaque alla prima with some impasto.
When applying gold leaf to a tempera surface (particularly a fresh one), the gold tends to stick not only to the mordant, but also to any surrounding, exposed tempera paint, and is very difficult to remove without damaging the paint. You can cut a mask to protect the surrounding area. I've also had success with first dusting the paint surface (where you don't want the gold to stick) with a bit of talc before applying the mordant and leaf. The talc prevents stray gold leaf from adhering, and after gilding you brush off the talc and/or apply a very thin nourishing layer (thinned egg yolk medium) which makes the talc transparent. I've actually done this only a few times, my experience is limited, so I'd be interested in what others have to say. Koo Schadler
Wow, that was fast and informative! I too was told that Color-aid Paper is silk screened, and it certainly appears to be. Sadly, neither their site, nor the box that the paper comes in confirms that, but I will run under the assumption that it is. Because I dislike working with materials that are known to be not lightfast, and as I am not married to the idea of using Color-aid in the piece I am currently working on, I will skip using it. I don't use rubber cement, and purchased Golden, Gel Medium, Soft Gel (Matte) which I had planed to use to adhere paper and cheese cloth. Is this product a "Aqueous glues or adhesives (pva or acrylic dispersions) "?
Hi Brian, I do have pliers and the canvas is cotton duck. I am not sure of the weight. I received the substrate attached to the stretcher and it was raw canvas. I sized and primed the raw canvas with the Gamblin products. I do find the canvas still loose even after priming. When I apply a stroke the canvas keeps bouncing and wobbles. I don't have experience with large canvases I am not sure if it reasonable the expect that the wobble can be removed. Thanks. Lewis, Steven
Acrylic dispersion are great adhesives and since the surface of these papers seems to have considerable tooth, similar to the surface of a silk screen print, It is easy to imagine the acrylic bonding well. but tests are always useful. When thing have to stay flat, counter mounting is a most useful technique.
Thanks for the answers. The stretcher can't be keyed because it is one of those so called "Gallery" stretchers, mitred 1x2 frames the corners are fixed together as are the braces. I will try removing the canvas and glue masonite down on the stretcher then re-stretch the canvas. The canvas was pre stretched before I sized and primed it. Lewis, Steven
What a waste of time. Hope you enjoy your life up in that ivory tower.
Small tears are easy to repair with a linen patch and acid free adhesive made for this purpose. It is a skill quickly learned and has a long history in painting conservation.
Just a note to the above fine comments- It has been mentioned that Gerome and the French Academy may have used hard fossilized Copal as an minimal additive to their painting medium- explaining some of the paint effects-this has to be more fully documented also-and secondly worthy to repeat Kristin's comments- Do not use Copal resin as a final varnish layer- Alexander Katlan Independent Conservator
"A few boutique/hobby manufacturers have tried to revive copal over the last couple of decades, and what is supposedly genuine copal varnish is still sold by Lefranc & Bourgeois. The L&B product is not too pricey; I don't know their source of resin but the manufacturer does say it contains "hard copal" In the LeFranc and Bourgeois promotional literature from the 1970s they advertised their Flemish Siccative Medium as containing Zanzibar copal which is reputed to be the hardest and most desirable. In their recent literature they do not mention the source of this copal in their current version of this medium, but it is possible that they had a large store of this resin that is still being utilized. I have not yet written to them to see if this is the case. I have used this medium for about 30 and it has held up well and at least now displays no signs of cracking or excessive darkening.
Dear Kristin, Thank you for this very complete answer, actually few references I did not know about could be of use to me in extending my research, but what I really want to know is what people today have found relevant, what is their favorite choice in other words ! As you pointed it out, there is a large variety of recipes and I am interested in knowing about small changes or habits people could have developed through this century and the last, just like the painters from the 19th century did by following previous masters. I already know about the techniques employed in the past so, as a conservator and alchemist painter, I am interested about what is going on now ! Nevertheless, thank you for your time and these multiple paths I am eager to dig into. (This is a neverending subject like anything linked to craftmanhship!) - Ségolène Girard Co.
I wanted to stay away from brands but the claims for the fossill like copal gel were from Jim Groves
Brian, Thanks for the excellent information shared here. I didn't intend to correct you, just thought it was worth emphasizing your comment that various copals are, as you wrote, derived from different botanical origins. Artists are often not clear on this point. Matthew Kinsey, Utrecht Art Supplies
Sorry, forgot to sign my last comment: Matthew Kinsey, Utrecht Art Supplies. I would like to add one more thing, in case any artists reading this discussion are tempted to try making oil-based copal varnish themselves: it's really dangerous. Heating oils to the flash point and working with molten resin is not something that should be done outside a laboratory or industrial facility. The risk of injury and fire is very serious.
While strictly speaking, "real copal" is still available since there are several tree exudate gums known by that name, the top quality, semi-fossilized resin from the Congo that was sold under the Taubes brand through Permanent Pigments became unavailable after the Belgian colonial government was overthrown. Afterward, alkyds largely replaced the historical material, and copal gained a reputation as less reliable and prone to darkening and embrittlement, partly because lower quality fresh resins were substituted. Copal spans an assortment of tree gums ranging in age from fresh to fossil, from different plant sources. According to Analysis of resins, balsams and gum-resins by Karl Dieterich (1901), Congo copal was semi-fossil, and Zanzibar was fossil resin. South American was tapped (fresh) gum. A few boutique/hobby manufacturers have tried to revive copal over the last couple of decades, and what is supposedly genuine copal varnish is still sold by Lefranc & Bourgeois. The L&B product is not too pricey; I don't know their source of resin but the manufacturer does say it contains "hard copal". (The "copal varnish" sold as a dental supply isn't real copal, BTW.) For further reading, Allen's Commercial Organic Analysis (Vol. 4) has some comparisons of different copals, compiled at a time when the material was still widely used in paints and utility varnishes: https://archive.org/details/allenscommercia03sadtgoog
I think, as a paper conservator, that oil applied in a good way to the canvas won't cause problem with adhesion, but a lot of problems with ageing, especially if the canvas is thin. Correct me if I am wrong ? I observed cracks coming with oil stains on canvasses used for lining (19th c.).
Thanks for your replies, which are very helpful. Koo
PS. I suppose all my thoughts could be simplified into the question: What are current best practices for varnishing a contemporary egg tempera? Any different for a 500 year old tempera painting? Thanks!!!
Hi Brian and Kristin, You have plenty of expertise that I lack, so I’m glad you weighed in. And I appreciate your willingness to discuss a complicated topic. It seems there are aesthetic and protective components, as well as possible drawbacks, to varnishing any medium. Perhaps the differences with egg tempera are that the aesthetic consequence is generally more pronounced (it converts a relatively matte finish to a more or less – depending on the varnish - saturated one) and the protective effect a bit compromised and/or complicated (by the difficulty in keeping the varnish distinct from the paint film; but, as mentioned, I think a very thin isolator helps address that issue). To some painters, the aesthetic affect is positive – many artists want the greatest possible value range in an image, in which case the slightly more limited tone of tempera is addressed by a varnish (tho’ in fact I believe the limited tonal range of tempera is sometimes exaggerated; it’s certainly possible to get a true black in unvarnished tempera). There are technical challenges to varnishing tempera, but as you well know the same is potentially true of other mediums. In other words, I don’t yet see a definitive reason why tempera artists shouldn’t be able, or encouraged (as are painters in other mediums) to choose whatever finish best serves their artistic goals - yet what tempera artists commonly find in books and online is a bias, even a dictum, against varnishing (except in the icon community, which almost always varnishes, albeit poorly with a layer of Olifa). I don't mean to say there aren’t potential problems to varnishing a tempera – there are. Yet one might say that varnishing an oil painting to even saturation isn’t a good reason to varnish (since an uneven finish is indicative of issues that could/should be addressed in the ground or paint) yet oil painters aren’t discouraged from varnishing for this reason. I don’t mean to be a pest - just trying to point out that reasons for varnishing other mediums can be as complicated and compromised as with tempera. I agree with the many passionate supporters of not varnishing tempera that its natural finish is unique and lovely. But the finish on a Van Eyck is lovely too, so it’s not unreasonable for a painter to aspire to something similar atop tempera. If a definitive case can be made that egg temperas should absolutely not be varnished, I’ll willingly change my tune. For now, since there are tempera artists who want to varnish (for aesthetic and/or protective reasons – after all, it’s a very thin and somewhat fragile paint surface, especially initially) it would be interesting to know the best way to do so, as has been figured out for other mediums. (In fact, the most pressing question I have regarding varnishing tempera has to do with fatty acid migration, but I’ve already taken up a lot of space, so I’ll save it for another time….) Tempera’s appeal is limited by legitimate technical challenges (can’t buy it in a tube, can’t blend as in oil, etc) but also by what I call its “mythology” (I wrote a handout on this subject and so far the list runs to what I consider 30 egg tempera misconceptions). I explore these limits to try to figure out which are actual considerations, which are myths or bias, in the hope of expanding the potential and appeal of the medium. I can be persistent but my intent isn’t polemical, just trying to understand the medium. Many thanks for your patience with my questions, as well as being generous with your time and expertise. Koo
Thanks for your replies. I'm very appreciative of having experienced voices available to ask egg tempera questions, for which it can be difficult to find answers. I was able to download the Jaap Boon article, but your other recommendations are proving difficult to find; any recommendations (i.e. is there a comprehensive library at the Smithsonian, or some other conservation institute I could visit)? I agree it's important to say that varnishing egg tempera is a personal choice, not requisite - many tempera artists prefer the natural finish of egg tempera. However I'm confused as to the distinction between varnishing oils (or acrylics) versus temperas. I would think one of the primary functions of a varnish - protects the painting - would be applicable to all mediums, but is it different because a varnish atop egg tempera to some extent links with the painting (so it's still protective, but doesn't preserve the painting in it's original state)? Would you say that varnishing an oil or acrylic painting is also completely an aesthetic choice, or are there technical reasons for varnishing those mediums that do not apply to egg temperas? Thanks again, Koo
I agree with the Moderator that the best approach is to think more specifically about the desirable effect you expect to achieve with wax and find a reliable additive that delivers the same for acrylics, in terms of rheology or surface finish (e.g. stiffness, shortness, low reflectivity). There are many factory-prepared mediums that will deliver these effects while ensuring durable results. To better understand why wax is a poor choice for use with acrylics, think about how acrylic dispersion paint forms a film: water and dispersants leave the paint, allowing polymer microparticles to physically attach to one another, just like two painted surfaces sticking together on a hot day. Anything that interferes with this contact between particles can result in a weak, brittle film with poor adhesive power. Matthew Kinsey, Utrecht Art Supplies
Just to add to the fine comments of Brian Baade and Sarah Sands- that in the areas of the painting which are unpainted birch plywood, in your painting-"man in a blue sweater" and if the painting is unvarnished and remains so - then dirt/grime deposits that accumulate over time on the painting surface will eventually discolor the light tone of the birch plywood by either residing in the grain of the wood or on the plywood surface. Such discoloration may be irreversible and not removeable. Alexander W. Katlan, Painting Conservator
Thanks, Kristin - your reply was perfectly timely, particularly given the holiday. Everything you and Sarah say makes sense and helps me feel more informed about SID relative to tempera. It's great having access to experts and I look forward to asking more questions on MITRA soon.
Thanks for you in depth reply, Sarah. It's very helpful. At this point I don't think SID is a great concern for egg tempera, but I will continue to pay attention to the issue within my work and students'. I'll let you know if I see anything of interest. BIN is an interesting option for sealing. Certainly egg tempera sits well atop shellac (as you know many temperas are painted over india ink underdrawings), and I presume traditional gesso adheres well to shellac too, although I've never tested it - yes? If one were to seal a panel this way, is there any reason to use BIN over a homemade pigmented shellac, or does it not matter?
I started using Kremer White two years ago, in egg tempera. At first, I found it a very transparent glazing white, even better than lead white. It is not as bright though. Glazes upon glazes, it built terrific opalescent effects. Originally, I bought 100g, and used it up in 2 years. This year, I bought the whole kilo of it (it's not expensive at all), and started using it. To my horror, every application of this pigment resulted in crackling. Even small additions of it make the paint crack as if it were a very strong siccative. Something is different in this batch; so I contacted Kremer. They said they will contact their manufacturers in Germany and will look into it. They were very surprised by this. They haven't yet given their assessment as to what is happening, but I trust they are looking into it. Too bad, I like the pigment very much. It is possible they have modified the manufacturing methods and this has affected the properties of this pigment.
Thanks Ulysses and others. That was good info and much appreciated. Yes BH61 is the same as Raycryl 61. I wonder what other coalescing agents are commonly used to formulate acrylic mediums for artists? I have used propylene glycol and Texanol from Eastman coatings. Perhaps "Benzoflex 9-88 plasticizer" from Eastman would stop the cracking when drying pools of BH61 in uneven temperatures? Some of these additives are carried by Kremer and Guerra in NY and are available to artists to try out. Golden has also been very kind to sell me their thickeners. The reason why some artists use BH61 or Raycryl 61 is it was recommended (by Ray the now deceased owner) as a non-yellowing, non-brittle polymer for painters. I believe Dan Smith used it in some of their acrylics as well. I have used it for about 20 years now. Now I often use GAC 700 in combination with BH61 because it is clearer than adding GAC 200 to reduce the tackiness of pure GAC 700 (as recommended by Golden).
Thanks so much. Until now I used 1 part graphite to 3 parts acrylic binder. That way it is still conductive, but it will rubb off. I also tried 1:6 and that won't rubb off, but it is not conductive anymore. Perhaps I could use a different pigment? Charcoal should work, maybe it won't rubb off as easily as graphite does. I am not sure how well it conducts, though. I am wondering what is used in the prepaired conductive paint that one can buy at the store, both binder and/or pigment. But I now understand why this stuff is so terribly expensive.
I see that my last post did not make it to this forum. I'll post again: I am running the Painting Workshop on an Art Academy, and so I do make paint with students from scratch, every now and then. I think it's a good idea to have students make paint at least once, to give them a feel for it. In this workshop ' Tinkering new Media", which is done together with the Electronics Workshop in our academy, the students are making everything from scratch. So indeed I want them to make their own conductive paint themselves. So I hope some scientists here have a solution for my question :-) .
Just a quick follow-up for anyone interested in using Sunbrella fabric. This is from a post by Ross Merrill about how he prepared it for his own painting : "The present coating can be removed with hot soapy water and a stiff scrub brush and rinsed with clear water. I have had no problems in using either an acrylic gesso ground or an alkyd/oil ground. Alkyd ground can be used directly on the Sunbrella without a isolating size since the alkyd will not rot the synthetic canvas. The fuzzy texture of the fabric aids the mechanical bond between the ground and fabric."
In the de Mayerne manuscript, it was reported that in the Gentileschi studio, "Amber Oil of Venice" was added to white passages in the initial layers to prevent lifting, to reduce staining from subsequent layering, and to preserve luminosity of the underpainting. It's not known what exactly was in this "Amber Oil" but many have assumed it was a cooked oil varnish with fossil or semi-fossil natural resins. Alkyd mediums deliver many of these benefits- quick initial drying, solvent resistance and less staining of light colors in layered techniques. I recommend experimenting with some of the excellent alkyd mediums available until you find something you like. As the Moderator points out also, the addition of alkyd will significantly help manage variations in drying behavior between pigments, so you can hopefully feel a little more at ease with your materials. Matthew Kinsey, Utrecht Art Supplies
Correction - meant to say "increases the drying" not "time for drying." Alexander Katlan
In looking at Oleogel and Walnut Oil Gel for glazing effects- on a small test panel, found that the Walnut Oil Gel dries more transparently although much slower in drying than Oleogel and that with the Walnut Oil Gel the glazes are more workable. The addition of the fumed silica probably increases the drying time of both mediums and the transparency and a bit opacity of the glaze . It also has recently been published in the last few years that ground glass may have been a more common additive to old master painting practices than previously believed. For example- a number of artists have told me that ground glass added to blacks tend to make the blacks more transparent and vibrant. Katlan, Alexander W. 2016-12-20
Hi Kristin, thanks. The intention is to to prepare a number of panels before I paint. I don't intend to adhere a completed painting to a rigid support but if I that happened, I'd ask framer to vacuum seal linen onto a panel rather than stretch onto bars, as soon the painting is dry enough. How does sound? Thanks very much for the details Hugh. yes I should have mentioned oil paint. I had read that it might benefit from slower oxidisation under glazing. Interesting about the haze /effluent. Hopefully that would be very slow to occur and only need normal methods to clean plexiglas
It's a question for general ongoing painting practice everyday
I don’t know precisely what you mean by “glazing” (people have different definitions) or the reason you wish to slowing drying, but here are some thoughts. I define a glaze as a layer of transparent color – like a sheet of tinted cellophane - placed over parts or all of a painting. I agree with Brian that is it generally dark color over a light (most colors are mid to dark values), but I also think that a veil of transparent yellow over blue behaves like, and thus can be considered, a glaze. I also agree with George that, whereas in other paints (such as oil) adding medium is the means by which you lay down a transparent layer of color, you neither need to, nor should, add more medium (yolk) to tempera to make the paint suitable for glazing – adding extra yolk merely throws off the “tempering” (ratio of yolk to pigment) and makes for a gummy paint that’s apt to crack. Once you’ve achieved the correct ratio of yolk to pigment (about equal parts each) only water should be added to change the consistency of the paint. And since water evaporates you can add as much as you like, to create whatever paint consistency for glazing you desire. As Brian mentions, you could slow drying by adding oil to the yolk to make an egg oil emulsion, but I agree that in order to significantly impact the working properties of the paint you’d have to add enough oil that you wouldn’t be working with egg tempera anymore, but with a new medium, tempera grassa – so it’s not a solution that keeps you in the world of egg tempera. I am guessing that the reason you want to slow drying is to give time to manipulate the paint, so you can lay down a consistent, smooth glaze – is this accurate? As anyone who works in tempera knows, it’s a “mark medium” – it’s not possible to physically blend paint once it’s applied because reworking paint dissolves and lifts underlying layers. Thus whatever tool is used leaves behind its mark: A brushstroke stays visibly a brushstroke, sponged on paint carries the imprint of a sponge. As the layers build the surface becomes a bit resilient, you have a little more time to noodle, but not much, and lifting of underlying layers still occurs if you mess around too long. Lifting stops only when the underlying paint has cured, which can take anywhere from a few weeks to months. Most painters can’t wait that long to add the next layer (especially given that one of tempera’s charms is quickly building innumerable layers). Tempera’s “mark making” tendency means it is ideal for rendering fine details, crisp textural effects, and other linear elements. The challenge is to create smooth, mark-free transitions or, in the case of glazing, an even application of transparent color. You cannot get rid of the “mark” in tempera, but you can control and minimize it. If this is what you are struggling with, here are some options. 1. USE VERY THINNED PAINT Once paint is properly tempered (has the correct ratio of pigment to yolk) it can be thinned considerably with water. This watery paint can be applied two ways: First, as a “petit lac”, as Brian mentioned. You essentially put a puddle of paint on the surface (work horizontally) and, without breaking the surface tension, spread out the paint with the tip of a brush. This can result in a mottled effect, but also, with a lot of practice, you can manage the paint so it results in a relatively smooth application of color. The second way to work with watered-down paint is to load a brush and then – this is critical - wipe the brush (I press the tip between fingers and a rag). You want enough paint left in the brush to lay down a smooth-flowing mark, but not so much paint that it creates puddles. It’s akin to working dry brush yet strokes don’t “chatter” or skip; the paint flows in a smooth, controlled manner, and dries quickly. When a very much-thinned paint is applied this way it creates a faint, less distinct brushstroke: no big color or value changes from the underlying color, and less sharply defined edges. If enough visually inconsequential marks, with very faint, indistinct contours, are painted one atop the other, eventually they add up to a layer of glazed color with a minimum of marks. However, very faint brushstrokes are so inconsequential that A LOT of them must be applied to add up to something. Two things can be hard for people to grasp: (1) The degree to which paint must be thinned with water so that it doesn’t leave behind too much of a mark (people generally don’t thin their paint enough and make too distinct, sharp-edged of a brushstroke); and (2) How many layers of very faint paint must be applied to add up to something (people tend to stop before they’ve put on enough layers). It is this simple: If you apply paint and it creates too much of a mark, then you are leaving too much of a mark. Don’t judge if the paint is sufficiently thinned by how much water you’ve added or how it looks on the palette; believe the evidence of the brushstrokes on the panel. If the paint creates a delineated mark – a distinct line that interrupts a smooth application of color - the paint has not been thinned enough. Add more water to the paint and try again. I build many layers of this very, very watered-down paint applied with a well-wiped brush. Very gradually the layers add up, woven from scores of faint brushstrokes. Watching a painting emerge this way is like seeing film incrementally develop; or looking into a room as a dimmer switch slowly turns and gradually reveals objects within. 2. USE BROADER, MORE AMORPHOUS PAINTING TOOLS The broader the tool, the less individual, fussy marks you create. I know many tempera painters who apply glazes with 1 to 2” wide, flat watercolor brushes (using thinned paint, as described above). I use flats too, but my preference is a sponge – either kitchen sponge cut into a 2” square, or cosmetic sponge (which has a smooth surface). There are other considerations to these methods, but already I’ve gone on too long. My experience as a tempera teacher is that people often give up before they’ve achieved smooth glazing in tempera because they think it’s impossible. It’s not. But it does take a lot of attentive practice. I hope that helps. Koo Schadler
Golden High Flow Acrylics are thin and can be used in empty markers such as the Montana brand.
Thank you Kristin and Brian. I wonder whether there is a similar institute in Canada?
addition to my last comment about walnut oil - it's sometimes used in final layers as it's slower drying (& marginally less yellowing than linseed) but differences in drying time between different drying oils seems to level out after 3-4 weeks and linseed oil is apparently fairly stable after a month (in terms of weight gain & loss). So for a painting 3 months old using walnut oil won't help much. Resident experts please correct this if it's wrong
I think the last comment (11-23) needs qualifying about its claims for structural accuracy. Is it not important that the underpainting is either fresh ie still wet or fully dry (not recently touch dry) before painting over and that the surface is slightly rough (rough it up eg with a cuttlefish or sandpaper if it's not and don't breathe the dust or get it on you) or matte- satin at most. Oiling out an old painting before painting into the oil couche doesn't aid structural integrity (it's used to stop sinking in or if you want to paint to glide on or for a visual aid especially to match tones). If you need to add oil to the paint (fat over lean general guide) because you added oil to the previous layers, then add oil to paint, don't oil in. Walnut oil doesn't help structural integrity, it forms weak bonds
Thank you very much Michael. I had no idea Poly-on-ACM came so strongly recommended. I wonder, should it matter if the Sunbrella is the marine-grade or the upholstery kind? It seems Sunbrella's awning fabrics aren't treated as heavily with waterproofing etc. ( Confusingly, they have a line of upholstery fabric called Sailcloth! ) Also - sorry to refer an earlier question - but would putting the fabric through several washes, with perhaps some scrubbing, be enough to remove the coatings? I'll email the Sunbrella company: hopefully they might be able to offer advice on removing any coatings, and also information on whether the poly fabric is still " not fused ". Fingers crossed for a reply. Thanks again, Mr Skalka. I admit, I'll be quite disappointed if I can't get this all to work. :)
Egg tempera does not lend itself to "glazing" in the sense of that word as applied to other painting mediums, such as oil paint. Since egg tempera is applied very thinly it is transparent without the need to add medium to lower the pigment volume in the paint film. In fact, egg tempera typically has a very high pigment volume compared to all other solids in the paint film, and attempts to lower this volume significantly results in problems for the paint film due to overbinding the pigment. There are ways to slow the drying time, but as Brian Baade has already commented attempting to interfere with the natural drying rate of egg tempera creates many other problems. George O'Hanlon
The discussion on use of polyester woven fabric as a substrate is now decades old. The late Ross Merrill, former chief of conservation at the National Gallery and Marion Mecklenburg from the Smithsonian agreed that polyester fabric on ACM was likely to be the best, most long-lasting substrate to ever come together in one system. The level of confidence was so strong in the combination that Marion's brother who runs a materials fabrication company started offering the first ACM, polyester laminated panel to customers long before ACM ever became as popular as it is today. A product called Polyflax is the closest thing that is sold in the artists' material world, but it is a poly-cotton blend. The industrial sources of polyester canvas are from the polyester sailcloth industry and from the commercial awning industry. Ross and Marion started experimenting with polyester canvas that they found from only one company, Sunbrella (sorry to cite a commercial company, but its unique properties make it a benchmark for the type of fabric that can be adequately primed because when originally researched, it was a poly that is NOT fused so that the numerous ends of fibers sticking out from the weave become useful in clinging to the priming coating. However, the same type of fabric may be sold in the commercial sailcloth industry at a reasonable price. Michael Skalka, ASTM D01.57
I was asked to sign the back of a canvas recently. I used soft charcoal, lightly applied so as to not put too much pressure on the canvas, reasoning that it won't bleed through and I have seen older canvases that have charcoal signatures on the back that have lasted for many years. I then lightly sprayed it lightly with fixative just to be sure. I don't think that that will cause a problem in the future.
Thanks everyone for the responses. This has been very helpful. To anyone interested, Sarah cleared up a concern I had about adhesion to high oil content paints in the comment section of the article she wrote (http://www.justpaint.org/volume-weight-and-pigment-to-oil-ratios/).
Note that Sarah's reply indicates "slower evaporating coalescing agents" in acrylics. Water isn't the only component that leaves the film as it dries. Coalescents moderate the rate at which film integrity is achieved, after water has evaporated. Coalescents like propylene glycol are also in retarders which keep acrylics wet longer. Excessive use of retarders can also induce tackiness. Matthew Kinsey, Utrecht Art Supplies
Aluminum stearate is a metallic soap which causes oil to gel while preserving neutral color and translucency. The gel effect can be achieved with a relatively small proportion of stabilizer. Similar compounds sometimes form naturally in small amounts when paint is made using cold-pressed oil (but not alkali-refined oil). It doesn't support film integrity like pigment, which is more analogous to an aggregate in concrete. Calcium carbonate, used as a filler, absorbs a lot of oil and imparts some stringiness to the paint body. It's also a weak white which increases opacity and dilutes color.
The only thing I don't understand about that is how the superabundance of aluminum stearate makes the paint fat. I understand it decreases the pigment load and makes for a weaker color, but don't those fillers still count as part of the solid particles that make up the PVC? Rublev's paste mediums were described to me by a rep as being "lean" mediums, or at least, not fat, because they are simply extender pigments in oil, and thus had a high PVC. What is the difference between aluminum stearate and calcium carbonate as a paint additive?
Great to know. Thanks
Appearance from the tube is not a reliable indicator of leanness in oil paint. Paint made with a lean pigment can sometimes shed a significant amount of oil because the raw material takes up less vehicle. In the case of scholastic grade paints, colors with a relatively low pigment load can look very dry and waxy if the manufacturer has used a lot of stabilizers to compensate, even if the pigment is relatively fat. Matthew Kinsey, Utrecht Art Supplies
The only follow up question I have, is whether or not the look and feel of the paint out of the tube is a reliable indicator of oil content. For instance, the raw umber and burnt sienna I have from Gamblin look very lean, dry and stiff out of the tube, but both are categorized as a higher oil content than mars black, which is a bit oilier in appearance and feel, but lower in oil content according to their chart. Is there an explanation for this other than variations/hiccups in production? Can some pigments appear lean and matte but have a high oil content?
Very clear answer. Thanks
Thank you for your quick answer. Now I can see that acrylic dispersion grounds would not have zinc white in them. I am not opposed to acrylic grounds either so that helps a lot. Besides, I can always add my oil ground on top of the acrylic if I want. I usually put a burnt sienna imprimatura on it before I start the image paint so that helps keep it from being too absorbent. Good point about having a cottage industry colormen make some for me. Thanks again!
Thanks Matthew and Brian. Perhaps it's safer to avoid both the printing store and the fabric store altogether; it sounds like a risk I wouldn't feel comfortable in passing on to clients. I've seen several websites where artists have recommended using inkjet- or fabric-store polyester, for reasons of both availability and economy. In this part of the world - New Zealand - good canvas can be especially expensive, I assume due to shipping. I know a few Australian artists who have a similar complaint. In any case, I think you're right, Brian : the solution is probably a matter of resourceful shopping, or perhaps just clever budgeting, rather than using less-reliable alternatives out of convenience. Thanks again - I feel I've been steered away from making some unwise materials choices.
If artist's poly canvas isn't easily available, I think matte finish polyester fabric for inkjet printing would be a better choice than something from the fabric store. The former is intended to accept water-based ink, while the latter may have coatings and finishings that could repel sizing and primer, as well as unstable optical brighteners. I would avoid glossy, coated cloth for exterior banners. Where artist's polyester canvas is concerned, especially when stretched as a flexible support, we recommend using an acrylic-based sizing to impart stiffness, reduce strike-through of the primer and to enhance adhesion with the acrylic ground. Matthew Kinsey, Utrecht Art Supplies
Thanks so much Brian; any advice would be appreciated. Trying to choose a polyester, or even something like hemp - another common fabric difficult to find as an artist canvas - from sources outside the art store can leave one feeling quite lost and unsure about the quality of the product.
Sorry Brian, I should have mentioned that I'd be painting with oils, and that the polyester would be glued to ACM panel. (I'd like to be able to prime the ACM panel directly, but so far I've had no luck finding an effective bonding primer for it.) I remember that polyester-canvas-on-dibond was recommended as a very durable support by Michael Skalka of the National Gallery on an online forum. Although I may have wrongly assumed that he was including oils in the discussion...In any case, the hope is that polyester is as durable and resistant to acids as advertised. The canvas would be primed smooth, so the rather mechanical weave isn't a concern. What is a concern is how the material is perceived by clients; unlike linen, there's not a lot of romance attached to polyester. Thanks again for your help.
Thank you Brian! So happens I have a large badger hair blender from Rosemary & Co.!
Thank you so much.
Excellent question. Gamblin FastMatte Alkyd Oil Colors are named for their two distinctive qualities – they dry fast and with a matte surface quality. By “fast” we mean that they dry in approximately 24 hours when applied thinly. Their matte surface quality makes for a receptive surface to promote the adhesion of subsequent layers. The binder of the FastMatte colors is a combination of alkyd resin and refined linseed oil. Their main point of differentiation with other alkyd colors on the market is their use in underpainting. To further support this, each color is “leaner” than their traditional Artist’s Grade counterparts – for example, FastMatte Ultramarine Blue is leaner than our traditional Ultramarine Blue. So, to answer your question…yes, FastMatte Colors can be used in preliminary layers before linseed-oil colors are applied. FastMatte colors can be thinned with a small amount of solvent, though we recommend a 50/50 mixture of Gamsol and Galkyd, as this will effectively thin the color, yet retain its drying rate, matte surface and the appropriate amount of binder. Kind regards, Scott Gellatly, Gamblin Product Manager.
Thank you both for your responses. I will keep these things in mind.
Great, thank you for your response.
Thank you. What are the adhesion problems that can be caused by oiling out? I think I may have encountered some but I do not know if oiling out was the cause. Also, you need to let an oiled out layer/area dry before painting on it? You cannot paint into the oil?
Solution found! (at least in egg tempera) Greening of azurite seems to be due to the penetrating varnish (olifa). In the latest icon, I covered the azurite-containing areas of paint with a very diluted coat of shellac, and then varnished with olifa (boiled linseed oil). This worked! No traces of greening, it is as blue as it was painted.
There is a excellent product called Dux Venitian Red Burnisher Sealer that is oil/solvent based and can be applied over just about any sort of ground as it seals even absorbent grounds and prepares them for the next step of applying the oil size before gilding. It is self leveling and can even be built up much like a traditional gesso for raised textural effects. It looks very much like traditional bole once applied. My main tip is to stir it very will before using as components do settle and need to be thoroughly mixed in before use. If you are applying a color over an acrylic ground and want to gild over that then you can also use acrylic paint. Golden's Fluid Acrylic in the Red Oxide color works very well for this and replicates the color of a traditional red bole. If you go this route you can also use a water-based size over the acrylic paint (never over oil paint). Wundasize is a very good size for this purpose and very easy to use.
Oleogel contains a small amount of castor wax, less than 1%, which is a non-hygroscopic derivative of castor oil that imparts a high degree of thixotropic thickening to the medium. The other ingredients are fumed silica and linseed oil. Castor wax has a higher melting point (85 °C [185 °F]) than beeswax and does not dissolve in polar and nonpolar solvents at room temperature. Castor wax dissolves in hot nonpolar solvents at 45 °C (113 °F) or higher, so we do not believe it is as susceptible to solvents as are most other waxes used in paint today.
I should also mention barrier creams should only be used for very light or occasional exposure and exactly as described by the manufacturer to make sure it is the correct kind for what you are doing (oil, solvent, acid, for example). And that these creams shouldn't be worn under gloves. Kerith Koss Schrager
I should also mention barrier creams should only be used for very light or occasional exposure and exactly as described by the manufacturer to make sure it is the correct kind for what you are doing (oil, solvent, acid, for example). And that these creams shouldn't be worn under gloves.
I would be very cautious with the use of barrier creams. The primary purpose of these creams is to prevent contact dermatitis and irritation NOT necessarily to prevent chemical exposure and there are controversies about their effectiveness in scientific studies. In some cases they have been shown to actually increase the absorption of certain chemicals. No one material can protect you from all chemicals. Glove manufacturers will provide you with information on what material works for a specific chemical (nitrile gloves are not sufficient for acetone for example). There is also no way of knowing if you've applied the cream thick enough or with complete coverage. Kerith Koss Schrager
It's used in a workshop called "Tinkering new media", for students where they're trying out all kinds of stuff. So they will be using it for all sorts of things. Some use it in a painting, some on textiles, some on wood, etc. So flexibility and resillience: yes, preferrably. That is why I am using an acrylic binder, up until now. I think the solvability of gum arabic might be a problem for them. Thx, Matthijs Hendriks
If flash spun HDPE is going to be used in making art, it should be protected from UV and oxidants, since is likely to be vulnerable to both, since it is designed to be used inside of buildings. Due to its interstitial structure, it can be bonded a wide variety of adhesives that will penetrate and set.
Thank you Brian. In my initial post, there was an auto-correct error on my part. It was meant to say for "gilding" as opposed to "building". My question was meant to find a suitable replacement for red bole on a linen canvas surface with oil ground instead of traditional gesso. Your comment was very helpful and points me in the direction of a couple alternative materials for my purposes. Thank you again.
You can use a hand protector cream before you start to work. This will create a barrier between your skin and the pigments. Remember, the primary means of hazard with pastels is via inhalation.
It depends on the pastels you are using and their formulation. The Safety Data Sheet (formerly known as an MSDS) should give you some information on the hazards and the appropriate precautions. The supplier or manufacturer should provide you with the new 16-section format of this document either with the packaging or on their website. However, formulations for many artist's materials are often proprietary and are not bound by the same standards as other chemicals, so the information may not be complete. Pastels consist of pigments and a vehicle such as inert minerals, oil, wax. The pigments are a concern with pastels and all the same hazards present with pigments found in other artist's materials apply here. Pigments are not well absorbed through the skin (but may cause irritation), although elements of the vehicle (oil, preservatives, etc.) might be. Using your hands means there's a better chance of cross contamination or ingestion. These can be controlled with good hygiene practices (wearing gloves, washing hands, not eating or drinking around your artwork/materials, etc.). However, with pastels the primary health risk is associated with inhalation more than skin contact. According to "The Artist's Complete Health and Safety Guide" (3rd Edition): "It is essentially impossible to use dry pastels safely, because artists will be exposed to respirable-sized pigment and vehicle particles...A HEPA-filtered dust mask and special ventilation may reduce exposure...Oil pastels are easy to use safely, because they contain small amounts of oils and waxes, which keep dust from getting airborne." Note that the pigment itself doesn't have to be toxic (like lead or cadmium) to cause respiratory problems. The text also references the fact that artists who work exclusively with pastels have specially designed ventilation systems and to contact Arts, Crafts, & Theater Safety (http://www.artscraftstheatersafety.org/) for more information. Of course, it's always best to wear gloves. Kerith Koss Schrager, Objects Conservator, Co-Chair AIC Health & Safety Committee
Wow! Thank you. that's a great answer. I guess, I'll skip the improvisation and batch mix a few colors this way. Maybe make my own Velasquez white.
Thanks Brian. So regarding conservation, there are examples of thinly paint casein used as a ground that have lasted well?
The product MSDS should give indications for skin contact- the Sennelier pastel MSDS instructs: "Wear suitable protective gloves in the event of prolonged or repeated skin contact". Better grades of soft pastels and oil pastels include many of the same pigments as tube paints, so it makes sense to limit contact with bare skin, just like paint. If the product package carries the AP symbol of the ACMI indicating safe for all ages, blending with fingers is probably OK for the artist, though oils from the skin can be deposited on the paper, causing discoloration. Matthew Kinsey, Utrecht Art Supplies
There may be times when a painting has dried enough to cause problems with overpainting, but one may want to finish or edit the painting rather than just re-using the canvas. Sanding canvas seems only partially effective to me as it will only sand the surface bumps of the weave and not the valleys. Is there a way to 'etch' the paint with solvents? For example, using turpentine or even acetone to create some tooth?
Unfortunately, CRI isn't a very good indicator of a light's ability to render colour accurately. It indicates how closely it resembles a black body radiator. For example, candlelight has a CRI of 100 but it would not be very good for rendering blues. I believe the main problem for artists is colour matching while painting rather than trying to reproduce the type of light a painting will be finally illuminated under when displayed. (An impossible task anyway.) Fluorescent and LED lights both have spikes, bumps and gaps in their spectral curves which can lead to metameric failure. (Metameric failure is when you match colours so that they look identical under one light source, but look different to when viewed under another. The best lights on the market today, I believe, are made by Solux. They are halogen, have a CRI of 100, and come in a range of different temperatures. I would recommend something around 5000K as this is similar to direct sunlight and will give you a good representation of wavelengths across the spectrum. I believe Solux make globes that can be used in standard fittings, but they are 3500K or 3000K. The ones I use are MR-16 12 volt, 4700K, and are directional, so they require a transformer and some setting up. (They also have a new 5000K version.) They are available in 35w and 50w. Ideally, they would be mounted on tracks on the ceiling, but I have two, one on each side of my easel mounted on photographic light stands. I researched lighting for quite some time, and the stats on these lights were better than all others that I could find as far as accuracy goes. They are used in many of the worlds top museums, but as mentioned in an earlier post, modern LEDs are getting better and are being used in museums also. Ron Francis.
MDO plywood may be a good alternative for this application going forward. It's an exterior-grade manufactured panel with a thin hardboard layer that provides a continuous face. I have used hide glue-based gesso on this type of panel with good results.
thanks so much brian. Yes its plywood without any fabric.
Thanks so much for the excellent advice.
Thankyou for all the advice which has been invaluable towards my making a decision to not reuse my canvas as the oil paint on it is thick and certainly not lean. It may be used for experimental rough sketches later on. Fiona McClean
What if the painting you are thinking of painting over is on a rigid support i.e. hardboard panel and it is painted very thinly in oil? I'm talking about my own old painting. Does the fact it is on wood make it a little less problematic to paint over? Thinking of wiping it down with mineral spirits and sort of scrubbing the initial new layers in with a bristle brush to make sure they adhere? Somehow painting over old paintings can make a nice painting, not sure why. Thank you.
If the canvas will be sanded, it should either be supported from behind with a rigid board and shims inserted between the fabric and stretchers, or removed from the stretcher chassis altogether. Otherwise, there's bound to be some stretching of the fabric and a ghost impression of the bars. One other thing to consider regarding reusing thrift store canvases (I know some who do this): if the painting isn't by your own hand, there's really no way to know the composition of the paint or whether the original ground will be adequate. Matthew Kinsey, Utrecht Art Supplies
Sorry, did it again- forgot my signature! Matthew Kinsey, Utrecht Art Supplies
I understand the urge to re-purpose an abandoned work (by my own hand, not somebody else's work) on a particularly nice piece of linen. Those working on top of sanded oil paintings should be aware that some pentimenti will likely be visible, and some colors might assert themselves through subsequent work. It also bears mentioning that dry oil paint does not reliably accept acrylic dispersion painting ground (gesso), so simply priming on top with an acrylic ground is not advisable. If there's no sign that oil has penetrated through the original ground, I prefer to remove the fabric from the stretchers, flip it over and prime the reverse rather than sanding down old paint. I wouldn't use such a canvas for anything important but I think it's just fine for sketches.
Thank you Kristin and Matthew. This is pretty much exactly what I have been telling people, ... but the myth continues regardless.
Sorry, Matthew, not Albert! I wish I was able to edit my post.
Thank you Kristin and Albert. This is pretty much exactly what I have been telling people, ... but the myth continues regardless.
In addition to Gamboge is Dragon Blood also alcohol solvent both resins mixed with clear shellac an applied as layers to develop karat differences with the amount of layers. The problem still remains that over time the shellac will darken, many gilded surfaces (frames) that appear gold are not, just one of the many tricked of the trade.
Albert Bierstadt used a graphite-based oil ground for a time. It resulted in poor adhesion, but not migration, and that was quite a lot of graphite. Matthew Kinsey, Utrecht Art Supplies
Hi, Kristin is right, caranuba wax may be something you are interested in. It is often used for coating outdoor sculptures that are subject to high heat and sunlight, and fingerprints will not show. In the past, I have used clear Sculpt Nouveau Metal Wax (a mixture of microcrystalline wax and caranuba wax), which can be tinted black with dry pigments. I am not familiar with this wax being used for cement (haven't come across a lot of cement works yet), but I think it could work - just make sure to test a small area first and apply it in thin coats. Keep in mind that the porous nature of cement may make it extremely difficult to fully remove in the future and that if it is applied too thickly it may affect the appearance (with clear wax, areas in which it has been applied too thick appear white or hazy). Best of luck, Alex
During the WPA era, many murals were adhered with white lead paint. After reversing several of these (with extensive mitigation) I can categorically NOT recommend white lead. Even though it is strong, the toxicity and risk to the canvas to remove it makes it unsuitable. I would suggest BEVA or BEVA film as being more reversible and strong enough to hold painted canvas to a wall. BEVA is activated with heat, so if the paint is heat sensitive (eg. acrylic) BEVA would not be a good solution.
Sorry, forgot to "sign" my last comment about adhesive. Matthew Kinsey, Utrecht Art Supplies
The mural artists I've consulted swear by Roman 880 Strippable wallpaper adhesive for mounting canvas paintings. It's recommended for fabric wallcoverings, has a long period of workability and facilitates removal better than many other products. Some recommend preparing the wall with an unprinted wallpaper liner to promote adhesion, then pre-coating with the adhesive and applying a layer of cheesecloth to make eventual removal easier.
I agree, while it might not feel as improvisational to batch-mix paints as to work entirely on the palette, combining fillers with colors on a slab is the better approach. The modified paint can then be tubed for later use (this procedure is easy to learn and not nearly as widely used as it should be.) It's possible to crudely evaluate flexibility and adhesive power of filler-modified paint by applying samples to heavy mylar sheets. Once the sample has dried, the mylar can be flexed to see if the film splits or detaches easily. Another advantage to batch-mixing is reducing exposure to powders, since airborne particles can pose a health risk when using some of the fillers mentioned. Even some calcium carbonates can contain asbestiform particles- a few years ago, a popular brand of marbledust was recalled until this issue was corrected. Matthew Kinsey, Utrecht Art Supplies
The piece is to be indoors.
"For large-scale supports artists may choose to construct horizontal and/or vertical crossbars although crossbars should NOT be glued directly to the reverse of the panel, only fixed to the outer boards of the cradle using glue and/or hardware." Hi, the above recommendation regarding NOT gluing cross bracing directly to the panel is new to me, and differs from what I've read in the past (including Gottsegen's books). What are the reasons for this? Thanks.
Thanks a lot. I totally understand. Im going to learn to make my own pigments with medium soon, would you please explain how this will influence the painting process. So I totally understand both ways of working. Sandra
Thanks to all of you for your answers.
Thank you all for the feedback. I checked the painting and it does not appear to come off, even when scraped gently with my fingernail. I will apply a couple of layers of gloss medium then varnish. Greatly appreciate this site. Thanks again
Kristin, I only use tubed colors. Will mixing your own influence the painting processsteps?
I have had considerable success painting quite large (onto 4' x 8' panels) with oil/alkyd glazes onto copper and bronze prepared with a thin layer of alkyd medium. I've also painted with the Golden product formulated for rigid surfaces onto copper first coated with either automotive clear coat or incralac. A painting using the former method has hung outside in Fairbanks, AK for more than 10 years with no discernible degradation.
I am a painter also recently moved to a windowless studio, and was also dissatisfied with 5000K bulbs. The number of variables that you have to consider when shopping for bulbs can be confusing too. A gallerist friend told me the museum standard is 3700K which I could not find, but have been quite happy with the bulbs I ultimately chose: TCP brand CFL bulbs, 3500K, R40, 23 Watt (120 Watt incandescent equivalent). These are about $5 per bulb online. I do believe there is a difference between color temperature in lighting for photography and for painting.
An isolation coat should bind the acrylic paint, for instance Golden Soft Gel (Gloss) medium thinned 2:1 with water, the one I am familiar with. Varnishing (removable) would be a separate, later step.
Also this article about framing pastels may be of interest: https://frametek.com/assets/images/articles/FT-Pastel-Article-for-printing-interactive.pdf
I have run a professional picture framing business for well over a quarter century and regularly correspond and converse with conservators. I strongly recommend against glass directly against pastels for all my pastel artists and customers. I'm not sure where this trend started but I can assure you it was not with the conservation community. I believe it started with a pastel workshop leader somewhere who did not know better. Will it work in many cases, yes. Will it fail in many cases, yes. Anecdotal success is not enough. Much like wearing a seatbelt, the question is, do you want to run the risk of being the failure case? I 100% concur with Ms. Ellis and Mr. Phibbs who says "when pastel is framed ... it be done with a low or no static glazing material spaced no more than 1/4" in front of the design"—note the critical word "spaced", that is, an air gap between the glazing and the pastel. Scientific studies have been done and have already spoken. Works on paper should not be in contact with the glazing.
Great question, Brian. In short, it’s the appearance of the resulting paint layer. The mica powders look like mica powders. Bronze, and aluminum look like metal. Encasing the pigments in alkyd resin protects them from moisture and oxidation-related changes.
Using Rich Gold on the top layers of a painting is fine. Rich Gold is formulated by suspending bronze powder in an oil modified alkyd resin binder. Adding a small amount of linseed oil is fine, but do not thin with solvent-rich (lean) mediums or solvent alone, as this will under-bind the metallic pigment and cause it to discolor. It will retain its color well when the pigment is remains suspended in its binder. I hope this helps. Scott Gellatly, Gamblin Product Manager
After my last comment about grinding them with water to rework the sticks, I realized that nowhere in any of the posts was it stated, nor was the question asked - if they are oil pastels or regular hard / soft pastels. I assumed they were regular chalk type pastels not oil pastels with my response.
With that many pastels you have a pretty valuable stock. I have ground up old broken pastels before, adding distilled water until it forms a smooth paste, then shaped them into sticks which were left out to dry fully. As long as you don't mix hard pastel sticks with soft pastels in the "re-manufacturing" process, they work quite well. You might try doing that with a few of the worst case sticks. If you want to harden the final stick you can add varied amounts of binders such as clay.

I wear nytrile gloves during the process and just roll them in my palms to the desired thickness. You can then use some parchment paper or waxed paper to make them square if you want by flattening the rolled sticks with a piece of board on either side of the waxed paper. Reminiscent of working with Play Dough as a kid.

You will run into issues if you mix hard sand soft sticks - there will be harder chunks mixed in with the softer matrix.

You have three problems here. The first is that the encaustic has been applied to an acrylic gesso, which is not absorbent enough for encaustic to bond to. Second, is the stretched canvas. Stretched canvas is flexible and expands and contracts with changes in temperature and humidity far more than wax. This difference in movement exacerbates wax's inability to adhere to acrylic. Third, if the melted crayon is something like Crayola, the wax is paraffin wax, which has very low adhesive properties compared to beeswax. So, while you can warm the painting (I suggest from the back of the canvas so that the bottom of the wax where it bonds to the canvas is melted first), the problems with the paraffin and the acrylic gesso remain. You can solve the problem of the flexible canvas by adhering it to a rigid surface. If the wax hasn't seeped through, any archival glue like PVA or acrylic gel medium will do. Richard Frumess, R&F Handmade Paints
The safest to the paint already applied, as well as to the overall structural integrity of the painting would be to oil out very thinly with linseed or walnut oil, with no solvent, and only on the area to be painted into in the immediate session, and perhaps slightly beyond that area. After the oiling-out oil has been brushed on thinly, lay a paper towel over it, holding it in position with one hand while rubbing over the towel with the other hand, the objective being to blot as much of the oil off as possible. Just enough will remain on the surface to re-saturate the dried colors and lubricate the surface so the new wet paint will glide on seamlessly. The tiny amount of oil involved will become incorporated into the new paint and/or will be absorbed into the dried paint below, and thus will essentially disappear by the time the painting is finished. This is preferable to using retouch varnish for this purpose, because retouch varnish could (and probably would) interfere with adhesion between the layers of oil paint, and the presence of a soft resin in a paint layer renders it more susceptible to solvents normally used in removing old varnish in restoration procedures. This means the likelihood of some of your paint coming off when the varnish is removed is greater if you use retouch varnish while painting, or if you add a soft resin to your paint.
I've heard Blue Max lighting is very good. Was reading about this the other day in another forum.
Dear Brian, Having read your comment on azurite turning green after prolonged period in water, I checked a small jar of azurite I ground with water about 2 months ago. It is as blue as when I ground it, no color changes. I painted a small detail with it, and it hasn't changed color. I shall see how it develops in time.
Thank you all. Very helpful and will try to rehumidify them (not a real word). The thought about mold sounds very possible. That too I will check out.
They traveled with me from humid Central America, extremely humid and hot Asia the extremely dry and hot Middle East and then on to extremely hot and often humid East and West Africa. Sorry for my poorly written question. Some of them are rather dry (actually the softer pastels). Thank you.
20 years isn't that old. I have many 45-50 years old and they are still in great shape. Perhaps since yours absorbed so much moisture as they were in a humid climate, the binder may have migrated to the surface and got blotted out, weakening the pastel.Pigment would not change, but let's say a mold or fungus entered the humid pastel it might appear chalky.
Wondering if living in a very hot climate, as you noted, as well as assuming low humidity, has impacted the feel of the pastels by pulling out any of the normally retained moisture from the clays and chalks that are integral to pastel formulations. Not to mention the clay component of such pigments as ochres. All those materials are hygroscopic and would readily absorb moisture until reaching equilibrium with the relative humidity of the environment. I would imagine, in that scenario, a chalk pastel in a higher humidity could have a smoother, creamier feel - versus a drier, scratchy one in low humidity. If this is the culprit, you might try storing them in a space where you can control the humidity and keep it within a range of 40-60%? Keep in mind this is my own speculation only and as Kristin states, pastel experts might be able to add to the insights and causes.

Sarah Sands
Senior Technical Specialist
Golden Artist Colors
I agree with the comments already made. As Kristin asked, if by "rough" you mean rough in texture, but even then an oil film would not have the porosity that might overcome the oil film's natural resistance to the acrylic. On the other hand, the presence of wax in an oil stick may have an effect one way or another on that resistance. We've never tested for that, but it might be a good thing to do so. Richard Frumess, R&F Handmade Paints
I will follow up with any new experiences I have with this. Thanks for all your input .
A piece of four ply mat board glued to Dibond can warp it. Since Dibond, D-lite, Pro-lite, etc. are not hygroscopic, one can safely adhere a strong polyester fabric to the back of the composite panel and pull that around a wooden or metal stretcher/strainer, for stapling. This also enhances disassembly, later.
Thank you Brian, that was a major help. Meanwhile I came across a website that also mentions Arkon® P-90. What's your opinion on its gloss levels vs Regalrez? Cheers.
One more comment about zircon white, it has a refractive index of 2.4, so it has nearly the same R.I. as anatase titanium dioxide (2.55), and greater R.I. than lead white (2.1). so it is a fairly "opaque" pigment. There is very little information about its properties in paint, but rather its use in industrial ceramics. There is one study that I know cites it use as a pigments for spacecraft coatings: "Study of zirconium dioxide white pigment for space environment." Journal of Spacecraft and Rockets, Vol. 9, No. 2 (1972), pp. 103-106.
Zirconium Oxide (ZrO2)
 Colour Index: Pigment White 12 / 77990
 According to some sources (one I have cited below), zirconium dioxide or zircon white, has been completely substituted by titanium dioxide. It is used, with other substances, for the adulteration of titanium dioxide to improve the fastness properties of rutile. However, this was written about pigments used in plastics and may not be true for coatings. It has not found much use in coatings, but rather small use in plastics and greater application in ceramics. Albrecht Müller, Coloring of Plastics: Fundamentals, Colorants, Preparations. p. 68–77.
Thanks Brian! Want to know if it's a good alternative to Titanium, Lead and Zinc and if it's a good pigment for painting best practices
On Painting Best Practices Facebook forum (moderated by George O'hanlon of Natural Pigments) I posed the question about using the new/old white oil paint lithopone W5 in safflower oil named "Porcelain White" now offered by Williamsburg Oils. It is appealing to some artists since it is less opaque than titanium and has a translucent quality .Also, it may be preferable to problematic zinc oxide paints. Here is a quote from Williamsburg Oils "Porcelain White is based on a new pigment for Williamsburg, PW 5, a complex co-precipitate of barium sulfate and zinc sulfide more commonly known as Lithopone. Created in the 1870s and for a while a rival to both lead and zinc, it captured some 60% of the market for white pigments in 1928 before declining to 15% by 1945 in the face of a growing dominance by titanium dioxide (Alphen 1998). It holds a renewed interest for us as an alternative to Zinc White, which forms a brittle film and has been linked to issues of cracking and potential delamination when used extensively. Historically known as Enamel, Orr’s, or Charleston White, we chose the one we felt was the most descriptive: Porcelain White." Is there any way to get a definitive answer on lithopone W5? What sort of testing would be needed? Wouldn't Williamsburg do some testing of their product before bringing it to the fine art supply market? Several artists who primarily paint in oils are interested, intrigued and enticed by the properties of "porcelain white", but with a healthy dose of skepticism and caution as well.
Thank you! I think I will go with acrylics, as it seems to be the best way to go about it - the Golden materials will be great in this case. Also, thanks for the advice re rolling up for storage, and so on. I will advise the photographer for the best practice in storage.
I forgot to mention the issue about the coversheet needing to be something that will not adhere to the surface. Thanks Sarah. This precaution should be observed no matter the medium. Leaner paint films do tend to stick less than more heavily bound paints (including those where the surface was varnished or when the matte effect was achieved by adding lots of a matte medium) but this needs to be a consideration when choosing any cover or wrapping material. I have some images of artworks that were completely destroyed because they were wrapped in bubble wrap, bubble side towards the paint surface, and shipped in a hot moving van. Brian Baade
Comment: Comment: I forgot to mention the issue about the coversheet needing to be something that will not adhere to the surface. Thanks Sarah. This precaution should be observed no matter the medium. Leaner paint films do tend to stick less than more heavily bound paints (including those where the surface was varnished or when the matte effect was achieved by adding lots of a matte medium) but this needs to be a consideration when choosing any cover or wrapping material. I have some images of artworks that were completely destroyed because they were wrapped in bubble wrap, bubble side towards the paint surface, and shipped in a hot moving van. Brian Baade
Comment: I forgot to mention the issue about the coversheet needing to be something that will not adhere to the surface. Thanks Sarah. This precaution should be observed no matter the medium. Leaner paint films do tend to stick less than more heavily bound paints (including those where the surface was varnished or when the matte effect was achieved by adding lots of a matte medium) but this needs to be a consideration when choosing any cover or wrapping material. I have some images of artworks that were completely destroyed because they were wrapped in bubble wrap, bubble side towards the paint surface, and shipped in a hot moving van Brian Baade
I forgot to mention the issue about the coversheet needing to be something that will not adhere to the surface. Thanks Sarah. This precaution should be observed no matter the medium. Leaner paint films do tend to stick less than more heavily bound paints (including those where the surface was varnished or when the matte effect was achieved by adding lots of a matte medium) but this needs to be a consideration when choosing any cover or wrapping material. I have some images of artworks that were completely destroyed because they were wrapped in bubble wrap, bubble side towards the paint surface, and shipped in a hot moving van.
I concur that it is generally not appropriate to apply water-born acrylic dispersions over oils and waxes while the converse will generally work.
I will quote the relevant sections of the "Varnishes" document (found in the Resources section) here:

Make sure that your painting is free of surface grime and dust before continuing to work. A lint-free cloth and/or a soft bristle brush can be used to clean the surface

It is particularly important to avoid applying moderate to thick layers of retouching varnishes or layers of oil during the painting process as this could lead to potential delamination and/or cracking of the paint. As most varnishes remain sensitive to solvents, varnishes should not be used as the primary paint medium or applied in between paint layers. Paint applied over a varnish layer or mixed with certain amounts of varnish can remain sensitive/soluble should the artwork require future conservation treatments.

For oiling out during the painting process or for cutting the absorbency of a ground artists are recommended to 1) apply a thin layer of oil locally as needed or globally (consider using stand oil/thickened oil thinned in a solvent if your paint/ground layers are extremely absorbent) to matte/sunken-in areas 2) remove any excessive oil using a lint-free cloth and 3) wait until the surface is dry to the touch.

If the surface of your painting is fairly “fat” already (e.g. sufficiently bound with oil binder) then you may end up dealing with adhesion problems, either immediately or later down the road. In keeping the “fat over lean” principle in mind, the surface of the paint may require a bit of gentle roughing up in some instances (either locally or globally) to ensure that subsequent paint layers sucessful adhere. This can be done with extremely fine grit sandpaper, followed by an overall “rinse” with mineral spirits or OMS. If the paint is only touch dry, it may still remain soft beneath the surface in which case sanding would not be advisable. Kristin deGhetaldi

Can I offer a SIMPLIFIED SUMMARY (for artists in a hurry)? ie: Lithopone (zinc sufide) is not recommended: still uncertain, needs more research. Might darken in sunlight and form metal soaps (problematic) but Lithopone (zinc sufide) may be preferable to the more commonly used white zinc oxide oil paint. Stay tuned :J
The other half of this question that warrants info relates to reworking an already dry or partially dry or touch dry painting :J
Thanks to both of you for your comments and the information provided. If I had to guess I would say that having the glass in contact with the pastel surface - and having the "package" sealed on all edges as is done by quite a few pastel artists these days would tend to actually reduce the instance of mold growth since the amount of humidity that can migrate into the space would be significantly reduced. Ideally one would want to complete the glass package in a low humidity environment one would assume.

Another aspect of reducing the chance of mold growth that I have thought about is the fairly waterproof seal that modern sanded papers provide. This combined with the glass creates a very thin corridor that the pastel resides in, sandwiched between a moisture resistant and in the case of the glass a moisture proof barrier. There is a very small amount of air between the water resistant surface of the pastel paper and nothing else in there the glass except the grit of the paper and the pastel particles to be able to absorb moisture, thus not giving mold much to feed on. The less air the better so it seams. I realize that the long standing conventional wisdom over the last several decades is to make sure that there is a gap between the pastel work and the glass but I tend to lean to just the opposite as being a better method all around. I have read about pastels framed this way that were 80 plus years old that came out of the frame in superb condition. I also have heard from other pastel artists who have been framing with the glass in contact with the work for over 30 years and have not seen any issues. Perhaps some day a scientific study will be done on this topic.

Thank you Kristin deGhetaldi. The cracks appear to be within the varnish. My Painting is located in Baja Caliornia Sur, Mexico. The two largest towns near us are in Cabo San Lucas and La Paz, BCS, Mx. Thank you for helping me locate a Conservator. Lizzie Crookham
And here are the recommended adhesives that adhere well to Dibond panels: 1-Part Silicones, Adhesives and Sealants:

Dow 995: 1-part silicone structural adhesive

Pecora 864, 890, 895: 1-part silicone sealant

Tremco Spectrem 1, Spectrem 2, Proglaze SG: 1-part silicone sealant

Schnee Morehead SM5731, 1-part silicone sealant

GE SCS2800, SCS9000, SCS2000, SCS2900, GE7000, 1-part silicone sealant

Kristin deGhetaldi

Just to share one aspect of this, you might take a look at Appendix II:Specifications (p. 32) of the following Fabrication Guide by 3A Composites, the manufacturer of Dibond, which shares their research on appropriate adhesives to use, as well as other information on Fastening guidelines:

Fabrication Manual - Dibond, 3A Composites

Hope that helps at least on that one aspect.

Sarah Sands
My own concern with even bracing - but I admit I need to look into this further, as I am extrapolating from some of the studies on problems underlying cradling - is that a panel, if it is going to warp, will take the most efficient route to dissipate that tension. Thus the slight even bowing one might see is the least resistant means of relieving the stress. Attempting to overcome that by means of bracing simply means that that tension need to be relieved by other, usually less efficient means - thus ripples developing between the braced areas, or upwards towards potentially more brittle paint layers, leading to cracking. The best solution is to use thick enough plywood panels that warping at this primary level is minimized. Of course this leads to a lot of weight - but too many people, in my opinion, are trying to escape that problem by using too thin of panel and hoping that bracing will overcome the deficiency. Aluminum composite panels are likely the best route to avoid at warping as all wood is vulnerable to this. And taking a wider, art historical view, one sees precisely why canvas had such a following, allowing for very large compositions without the terrific weight.....but then, as we all know, that comes with its own host of problems.

Anyway, just some thought to share on the topic.

Sarah Sands
RE: Polymer Varnish Recommendation and Golden

Hi -

Thanks for following about the Polymer Varnish and where the idea might have come from. I asked simply because it is one of those things we just had never thought to test - but obviously you have been testing it in a very real-life way for awhile now and that might certainly inspire us to put it on the list of testing for the future. If nothing else, it is good to hear that you appear to be successful so far, so keep us in the loop at Golden - if you can - should anything arise. In the meantime, bust of luck with everything.

Sarah Sands
While I do applaud actions to protect the environment, the move by Swedish lawmakers to ban cadmium pigments from artists palettes was misguided. When estimating the total load of cadmium entering the environment, the proportion coming from artist's paints is barely if at all measurable since the overwhelming preponderance comes from battery production and other industrial uses and not the paint industry. To continue Kristin's suggestions, when using a non drying oil to rinse one's brushes, make sure to really wash your brushes thoroughly to make sure that no non-drying oil makes it into your paint in the next painting session.
There is surprisingly little published information on the formation of zinc sulfide and its potential to form zinc soaps which is the primary concern with zinc oxide (zinc white) but our scientists on the moderating board may have additional insight on this topic that I am unaware of. I will include some excerpts by an article that was only recently published by Rebecca Capua in 2014 (in the Journal of the American Institute for Conservation) who writes both about the history of zinc sulfide (specifically lithopone) as a pigment but also includes scientific and anecdotal history as well: Lithopone had high marks in all categories, with one huge disadvantage. As lyrically described by Orr's Zinc White 25th anniversary brochure in 1923: “[T]he good gifts of the fairy godmother are often accompanied in the world of fact as in that of fiction by a malevolent touch of a malicious witch. The new pigment, with all its claims to favour, had disadvantages, the greatest of which was the property of darkening in the direct rays of the sun. The cause was a mystery, never satisfactorily explained, the apparently paradoxical effect being that the trouble was reversible, for, while the paint went dark in the sun's rays, it reverted to white in the darkness (Robbins, A. 1923. Orr's Zinc White: A Romance of Modern Industry.http://www.catalyst.org.uk/collection/collection.htm.” The source of the problem, described by Rigg (Rigg, J. G. 1956. The history, manufacture and uses of lithopone. Journal of the Oil and Colour Chemists’ Association 39:809–831.), was that alkali metal chloride impurities found in some zinc sources would tend to catalyze the transition from the blende or sphalerite crystalline form of zinc sulfide to wurtzite during calcination, and wurtzite is more readily reduced in the presence of ultraviolet (UV) radiation to produce metallic zinc. In later formulations small quantities of cobalt salts were added prior to calcination, which had the effect of stabilizing the wurtzite crystal lattice and thus increasing the light-fastness of the lithopone (Rigg, J. G. 1956. The history, manufacture and uses of lithopone. Journal of the Oil and Colour Chemists’ Association39:809–831.). According to Rigg, Orr's Zinc white was prepared from materials free of alkali metal chlorides. The difficulties that the pigment industry had in producing a light-stable version of lithopone led to a far-wider adoption within manufacturing industries compared to its use in artists’ oil and watercolor paints. Lithopone was extremely important to the rubber, linoleum, and interior house-paint industries (Robbins, A. 1923. Orr's Zinc White: A Romance of Modern Industry.http://www.catalyst.org.uk/collection/collection.htm. Perhaps because of the stigma of its early difficulties, the usage of lithopone in paints for fine arts is difficult to uncover. As to the suggestion that lithopone used as an artists’ watercolor pigment did not actually discolor: it seems likely that protection from sun exposure during painting would have averted the reduction reaction. Many scientific accounts, such as those of O'Brien, point to experimental results that reveal that “moisture is necessary for the darkening” (O'Brien, W.J. A study of lithopone. The Journal of Physical Chemistry 29:113–144., 126), and that the same results would occur whether the lithopone was mixed with water, linseed oil, or varnish. It is reasonable to conclude that the La Farge and Van Gogh watercolors were painted indoors or otherwise protected from sun exposure, and once dried were not vulnerable to reduction to the same extent. It is hard to believe that artists’ paintings with lithopone did not experience any darkening given the contemporary scientific evidence, but they were certainly less vulnerable than a white-washed fence or carriage exposed to the elements, circumstances that seem particularly worried-over by industrial chemists grappling with this problem. However, the question then arises: if lithopone used as an artists’ pigment was not particularly prone to darkening, why did it have a poor reputation as an artists’ pigment? Indeed, the problem is circular; the best-case scenario is that this study leads to increased attention to the identification of lithopone on works of art. Only with more data points to provide a statistically meaningful set for comparison can research go beyond hypothesizing the answers to these questions
Thanks, Kristen. Think I can move forward with this now! Look forward to talking about other stuff as it arises. So good to be able to get reliable info!
It is probably better to seal than not to seal but we do have examples of very, very old paintings being stretched around panels that have survived just fine. Wood can off-gas things like formic acid and other potentially harmful components but since you are sizing BOTH the back and the front of your canvas with PVA or GAC you will likely be fine on this front. Kristin deGhetaldi
So there harm from leaving unsealed then?
Please see the other thread on dioptase regarding Veronese Green and Copper Resinate...
Copper Resinate contains reactive salts obtained from verdigris so yes, there will likely be discoloration or other issues in the future. Veronese Green is am imprecise term that has been used to describe many types of green pigments. Kristin deGhetaldi
Done! We now have a category called "Oil Paint." Kristin deGhetaldi
You certainly can....there is nothing wrong with sealing the wooden panel/cradle. You can use a variety of materials to do this (PVAs and acrylic mediums are not well-suited for this purpose)....Paraloid B72 is a resin that many conservators use (and can be purchased at Kremer and Talas) but you can also choose to use a high grade shellac or a solvent-born polyurethane.
Another question: If I stretch a canvas sized on the back with either Gamblin PVA, GAC 200, GAC 100 or GAC 400, over a cradled wood panel, should I also size the panel and cradle, or should I leave it to breath? Thanks.
It is difficult to make this assessment without looking at the painting in person (members will have the ability to attach images in the future) but removing varnish does not necessarily mean you will remove cracks. Can you see the ground peaking through in the cracks or are the cracks only within the varnish layer? Mounting the painting to a rigid support (which may or may not be aluminum) will certainly help to mitigate movement of the canvas, sizing, ground, and paint layers to a significant degree and therefore help to reduce the formation of planar deformation, cracks, and possible flaking/delamination. If your painting is currently not located in the US please let us know and we can look into locating a conservator where ever your painting currently resides. Kristin deGhetaldi
Yes BEVA is reversible....but realize so too are most PVA adhesives and acrylic mediums in certain instances....otherwise we would not recommend them. Kristin deGhetaldi
RE: Golden recommendation on using your Poymer Varnish - from memory I thought I had received an email from Golden but I searched back 3 years and do not see any direct communication from Golden about this. It has been a while so my recollection is not clear. It may have been based on something I read on an art supply or encaustic web site, but unfortunately I cannot find that source. After re-reading the page on the Golden site which I did read some years ago about this product I see clearly that you only recommend it for acrylic paints. Thanks for bringing my erroneous statement to light.

In any case, it is working wonderfully on the encaustic surfaces. No hint of adhesion problems or interacting undesirably with the encaustics during application or over an 18 month period of time on the surface. In one test I took a cloth saturated in the varnish and rubbed very hard for about 90 seconds on a test strip of my Gamblin Cobalt Blue pigmented encaustic and there was no indication of lifting the encaustic medium or leaching any pigment from it even looking at the cloth and the encaustic surface under 10x magnification.

I was extremely pleased at how easily it could be removed from the surface. That was a very important aspect for any protective varnish I was going to use. All of the solvent based removable varnishes I tried had problems with dissolving the encaustic medium on application as well as removal.

For your information, I painted this Rafael reproduction in 1988, oil on linen, 50 x 30". There is minor cracking from fluctuation in humidity. I felt removing the varnish would remove the cracks. I am interested in mounting the painting on aluminum composit panel. Will mounting the painting on aluminum stop the fluctuation? Thank you.
On the question of the different ways to size and prime a canvas, let me start by admitting that all the options you lay out sound viable and which one is 'best' might really come down to which you find easiest and which results meet your needs the most. If you have the time and wherewithal, it might be interesting to prepare three 16"x20" or similar sized canvases using each of the three methods and comparing them. But also let me make a few comments on each process below:

1) We have, to be honest, never tried applying GAC 200 to each side. In the article what we did was apply GAC 200 to the front of a stretched canvas, then applied a second coat once that was dry (usually 3-4 hours later) That said, it might be interesting to try your system to see if it is equally effective or perhaps more so. But certainly if wanting to follow what we did, then two coats to the front, wait a day, then apply acrylic gesso layers, then - as you say - 3-4 days before painting. Also I notice that you keep quoting the temperature as 72F. Just know that we set it at 70F with built in wiggle room already since, speaking strictly, the min. temperature was closer to 65F but we figured that with thermostat inaccuracies and uneven heating in a room, 70F seemed safer.

2) Yep, this sounds fine. Minor note - we have never tried applying PVA on top of GAC 400 but see absolutely no reason why this should be an issue. Just wanted to be honest about what we have or have not tested ourselves.

3) This sounds perfect. If coating the backside, then stretching, becomes a hassle, using one coat GAC 400 to the front followed by three coats of acrylic gesso would work as well.

Which would I suggest? As I said, I think it is really a personal choice. All are fine. I personally like the straightforwardness of the first and third systems, or even the very simple 4 coats of acrylic gesso to the front, which is fairly stiff as well. But see what you think. Each will give subtle differences in their final surface and feel.

Finally, on the question of coating the back of a canvas to protect it from finger oils....it feels like overkill to me but I do not necessarily see a downside. Of everything you can do to protect the back of a canvas, I feel by far a backing board is ideal. It helps moderate any shifts in the humidity, dampens vibrations when moving or shipping, and protect from dust or dirt.....and finger oils! I find this document from the Canadian Conservation Institute easy to follow

Backing Boards for Paintings on Canvas - CCI Notes 10/10

but others here might be able to point to other resources as well.

Hope that helps!

Sarah Sands
Thanks, Kristin. Yes, I read about using PVA or acrylic gel for glue. But there was an advantage to the BEVA in that it was not a permanent mounting. So if I can achieve the same end for no health or time compromise, I will go with the canvas stretched over the panel and tacked. My colleagues that I am teaching will like it to. It is easy and is not much of a change from a stretched canvas over flexible support. But it is so much better. Look forward to confirmation of the three processes of canvas prep we have talked about and which one you prefer.
Yes I suspect either ethanol or isopropanol may bite into your paint if it contains dammar. As to "how low can you go" regarding the amount of dammar you can add when keeping in mind your varnish.....this is really something that you would have to test on your own which it sounds like you are doing anyhow... Deghetaldi, Kristin
Regarding your question relating to BEVA-mounting canvases...you do not necessarily have to use BEVA as you will see in our document "Rigid Supports"....it is possible to also use acrylic gel medium or even an appropriate PVA adhesive. Certainly the method you propose above is fine as well as it is simply another reversible option. Of course there may be some slight mechanical-related damage that is localized around where the painting is tacked to the wooden support but in the end this may be a minor drawback. Kristin deGhetaldi
I have been reading suggested materials about canvas mounted to panels. The BEVA glue for process for mounting would be great because it is reversible and therefore lends itself to making works repairable for future generations. The problems however are that it has toxic fumes, and is very complex process. It is likely time consuming and expensive, which makes it rather unviable for a professional artist who already operates in a time deficit for projected income. I have another idea. Would there be any problems associated with prepping canvas in similar ways to those suggested for stretching on flexible supports, but instead of using stretcher bars for supports, using a pre-manufactured hardwood plywood panel – one of those with wooden bar supports on the back sides and cross bars in the middle? Could I tack canvas to one of these, stretching it the same way that I would on stretcher bars, leaving the back unglued to the panel? This would only have the mechanical attachments of the tacks so would allow easy access to the painting by art conservationists, if needed sometime in the future. It would be rigid and stop flexing of the canvas. It would allow the substrate materials to have one less material (mounting glue) to counter against in movement. What do you think?
Dear Sarah, What is the process using 2 coats GAC 200 then Golden Acrylic Gesso? Best Guess: 1) Coat one side of canvas with GAC 200 and let cure at 72 degrees 2) Stretch canvas, with coated side towards the back 3) Coat the front side on stretched canvas with GAC 200 and let cure at 72 degrees 4) The following day, prime with Golden Acrylic Gesso and sand when dry 5) Coat with another layer of Golden Acrylic Gesso 6) Wait 3 or four days before painting What is the process using GAC 400 then GAC 100 or Gamblin PVA, then Golden Acrylic Gesso? Best Guess: 1) Stretch canvas 2) Coat front side with GAC 400 and let dry 3) Re-coat front side with GAC 100 or Gamblin PVA and let dry 4) Recoat front side with GAC 100 or Gamblin PVA and let dry 5) The following day, gesso with Golden Acrylic Gesso and sand when dry 6) Coat with another layer of Golden Acrylic Gesso 7) Wait 3 or four days before painting The other process you mentioned was: 1) Coat backside of canvas with GAC 400 and let dry 2) Stretch canvas 3) Coat front-side of canvas with GAC 400 and let dry 4) The following day, apply three coats of Golden Acrylic Gesso, sanding in between 5) Wait 3 or four days before painting Do I have the processes and products right for these three options? Of the three basic processes, which would you recommend the most? Also, could the second process, (with GAC 400 and 100), could the process be enhanced by also first coating the back-side of the canvas with GAC 100 or Gamblin PVA so that moisture or oil from fingers could not seep in?
Also testing comments, please do not approve this comment.
Hi -

As the Senior Technical Specialist here at Golden just curious about your initial comment, where you say that "Under the recommendation of Golden products I have been using their removable acrylic varnish for about a year now...." Just wanted to see if someone here recommended the Polymer Varnish on top of encaustic as that would be a very untested recommendation, and we would want to make sure to stress that and that using it in this way would need to be seen as experimental. That said, if it has been working well, that is certainly something for us to look into and perhaps do testing on our end.

I appreciate anything you can share - and thanks!

Not having any ethanol on hand, I tried some isopropyl alcohol which did dissolve my 6:1 beeswax:damar mix. Can I assume that ethanol would do the same?
Yes as Sarah stated it is ideal to first attach the canvas to a panel BEFORE painting....but we do address this in the Rigid Support document listed on our Resources page (specifically how one could go about attaching an already completed painting). Kristin deGhetaldi
Thanks, Sarah. I like the simplicity of the the double coat of GAC 200, the complete seal to the canvas (even if the gesso were to get a fissure, and leak, the canvas would be protected), and the stiffness is excellent, yet it isn't brittle and it is not hygroscopic. So it sounds like it would be as stable a ground as canvas can give you. I will give it a dry-run before recommending and teaching it to my colleagues. I will also read up on mounting canvas on panel and recommend this even sounder practice to them as well. At this point after just reading your reply, I think the BEVA glue sounds good, as well as doing the gluing before painting. Your help, and this forum is just great. Thank you so much for doing this for our art community!
Here is a re-post of the above post but with HTML paragraph breaks added where I wanted them. No need to post my comments in this post of the 3rd one about paragraph breaks. -------------------

Thanks for your detailed reply and for all the work on this outstanding site.

The bottle is labeled Golden Polymer Varnish with UVLS in gloss, satin and matte. Yes, it is intended as a sacrificial protective surface. I do include a detailed document with each piece explaining how the piece was made, the materials used and how to remove / replace the varnish for whatever reason. My encaustic medium is pure Damar resin powder and filtered beeswax, ranging from 6:1 to 8:1 ratios pigmented with Gamblin and Sennelier dry pigments.

Though I do create some encaustics that are more traditional which I often do not seal with varnish, my current style and presentation is such that I cannot use glass and do not want to leave the wax unprotected at any time when on display, which is why I started using the Golden removable varnish as it seemed to be the ideal choice for an encaustic. All hydrocarbon removable varnishes that I tried would soften up the wax to some degree. Removing them with mineral spirits did even more damage. On most pieces I do buff the surface to a pretty high shine before I apply the varnish and put the gloss or a mix of gloss and satin that matches the way the bare wax looks as closely as I can. In most cases it is difficult to tell whether a piece has or has not been varnished so I keep good records of what was done. If I accidentally start to apply new wax to a piece that has been varnished, bad things happen. All the varnish must be removed for any changes to be made to the piece.

I have some varnished works that are a bit over 1 year old now that look the same as the day I finished them. I have tested it extensively as far as applying and removing it. It comes off easily with a mild household ammonia cleaner per the instructions from Golden. Windex also works well. I spray the surface and let it soak for a few minutes, then wipe it off. It usually takes about 3 of those routines to remove every trace of the encastic. My panels are saturated with beeswax as a primer before I do any painting on them so the water based cleaner sitting on the surface is not a problem. No hard rubbing needed. Once removed the encaustic surface sheen and texture looks exactly like it did before I applied the varnish. I have not noticed any softening of the wax or even minute amounts of color coming off when applying the varnish or when removing it.

The pieces that have been varnished do not become dull underneath the varnish after about 18 months at room temperature, which was something I thought might happen. I don't know if they will over an extended time frame, but if they do it is an easy job to remove the varnish, rebuff the wax and re-apply a new coat. In the care instruction sheet with each piece I do mention that if the owner wishes to leave the wax exposed with no varnish, they can do so, buffing the surface with a soft cloth as needed if bloom does occur.

Thanks for the information on the PVA resin. I will do some testing with ethanol first to see how well my encaustic paints hold up to it and if they do, I will give the PVA resin a try on some test pieces.

Is there any way to insert paragraph breaks in the text? (No need to post this to the thread).

All my paragraph breaks disappeared which makes the text hard to read.

Thanks for your detailed reply and for this outstanding site. The bottle is labeled Golden Polymer Varnish with UVLS in gloss, satin and matte. Yes, it is intended as a sacrificial protective surface. I do include a detailed document with each piece explaining how the piece was made, the materials used and how to remove / replace the varnish for whatever reason. My encaustic medium is pure Damar resin powder and filtered beeswax, ranging from 6:1 to 8:1 ratios pigmented with Gamblin and Sennelier dry pigments. Though I do create some encaustics that are more traditional which I often do not seal with varnish, my current style and presentation is such that I cannot use glass and do not want to leave the wax unprotected at any time when on display, which is why I started using the Golden removable varnish as it seemed to be the ideal choice for an encaustic. All hydrocarbon removable varnishes that I tried would soften up the wax to some degree. Removing them with mineral spirits did even more damage. On most pieces I do buff the surface to a pretty high shine before I apply the varnish and put the gloss or a mix of gloss and satin that matches the way the bare wax looks as closely as I can. In most cases it is difficult to tell whether a piece has or has not been varnished so I keep good records of what was done. If I accidentally start to apply new wax to a piece that has been varnished, bad things happen. All the varnish must be removed for any changes to be made to the piece. I have some varnished works that are a bit over 1 year old now that look the same as the day I finished them. I have tested it extensively as far as applying and removing it. It comes off easily with a mild household ammonia cleaner per the instructions from Golden. Windex also works well. I spray the surface and let it soak for a few minutes, then wipe it off. It usually takes about 3 of those routines to remove every trace of the encastic. My panels are saturated with beeswax as a primer before I do any painting on them so the water based cleaner sitting on the surface is not a problem. No hard rubbing needed. Once removed the encaustic surface sheen and texture looks exactly like it did before I applied the varnish. I have not noticed any softening of the wax or even minute amounts of color coming off when applying the varnish or when removing it. The pieces that have been varnished do not become dull underneath the varnish after about 18 months at room temperature, which was something I thought might happen. I don't know if they will over an extended time frame, but if they do it is an easy job to remove the varnish, rebuff the wax and re-apply a new coat. In the care instruction sheet with each piece I do mention that if the owner wishes to leave the wax exposed with no varnish, they can do so, buffing the surface with a soft cloth as needed if bloom does occur. Thanks for the information on the PVA resin. I will do some testing with ethanol first to see how well my encaustic paints hold up to it and if they do, I will give the PVA resin a try on some test pieces.
I have done some work on guitars before that was done with acrylics that were varnished over once completed. It held up really well. I think the acrylics would be too thick for what you are wanting to do. I would probably want so use alkyds if I were ever given another guitar commission. If use thin glazing techniques and you choose your pigments carefully you should be able to get some fairly rich colors without them becoming too thick.
Hi Kathy! Happy to help further. The GAC 200 only needs to dry while at 70F, so once it appears clear and not cool or clammy to the touch, you are fine. Could easily be a matter of a few hours. As for time between coats, again, once clear and touch dry, you are good to go. The first coat usually dries very quickly because of the absorbency of the canvas, so I could see doing the second coat 1-2 hrs after the first, and then letting that sit for another 3-4 hours to be safe before turning down the heat. As for the ideal number of coats of acrylic gesso for glazing....great question and would think it might vary depending on each person's taste. I would start at 2 coats as that will still hold onto the texture of the canvas, and then if you want something smoother, add a third. And finally, for mounting canvas to panel, you have several options. Having a canvas removable for conservation purposes is always best, so if willing to explore the use of BEVA, which is a heat activated adhesive used frequently in conservation, you can purchase that as a brush-on gel or as a film. We purchase ours from Talas, which you can find at Talasonline.com (put BEVA in their search box)and you should also read the Resource Page for Adhesives and Sizes that you can find here https://www.artcons.udel.edu/mitra/resources as that has a section on BEVA and even its use for mounting canvas to panel. If not concerned with reversibility, you can certainly use an acrylic gel or medium as an adhesive. You can see a short video where we show the use of Soft Gel for adhering paper to a panel, but the process for canvas would be similar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggB1veQmwNU&t=1s One concern I would have in either of these cases is that tyou would be working with a finished painting, rather than simply adhering unpainted canvas to a panel, and so there might be risks to damage or deformation of texture in the painting from any application of pressure and heat, so hopefully one of the conservators might be able to chime in with a best practice in that case.
I have learned that there is no sizing on virtually any premanufactured canvases in Canada to prevent the oil from doing damage. This has spawned my research. If any one knows of manufacturers that properly size their canvas before gessoing, please share this information with us all.
Thanks, Sarah! I did read your suggested link. The quality of information was fantastic. I have some questions. If I size with GAC200, two coats, how long would I have to leave the heating at 72 degrees for proper curing? How long between coats? How many coats of Golden Acrylic Gesso would be ideal for glazing? I have noticed that a medium openness is ideal for holding a glaze. What would be the ideal procedure for mounting canvas to panel? Thanks so very much.
Thank you Brian that helped. I will buy the painters handbook.
What about Copper Resonate (AKA Veronese Green)
What about Copper Resonate? (AKA Veronese Green)
I grind my azurites as little as possible both in tempera and in oil. Because it is a relatively 'soft' mineral even a couple of turns with the muller affects its blue colour.
Thank you Kristin for answering my query. What a great resource this is!
I agree - it would be nice to have a category called "oil painting" like you have ones for egg tempera and acrylics. "Drying oils are only one component of oil paint and there could be other technique/technical questions about "oil painting"
Important: a varnish that can be used over oils OR acrylics is "Gamvar". And.....it can be removed later. Excellent product.
A good product for this and one that will produce a nice "tooth" for oil adhesion on acrylic is Liquitex Clear Gesso". I've had good success with this over the years.
Thank you, Brian! That's probably the cause. I grind azurite either with water and keep it in a small jar and temper right before painting; or in some cases, mull it with egg emulsion for proplasmos (base coat) application. Looks terrific for a few months, then greens. So this must be the case. I work dry-brush, so there is no "wet" or petit lac application for the the smaller particles to "green" the coarse ones underneath.
Cool. All good advice. I'm trying to contact Winsor and Newton now about their pigment markers. Those are marked A for lightfastness, but I don't know how the alcohol will act on the next layer of shellac. This has been really helpful. Thank you.
Thanks for the info!
Hmm. Carbon Black's not the only colour I'm likely to want, though. Sharpie does multiple colours, and I can blend or cover. I'll take your advice to mind about lightfastness, but I'm probably going to use blue and green as well as black, which makes the choice of medium a lot harder.
Yeah, I'm concerned about the sharpie rather than the shellac. Another part of my question, I guess, was whether the shellac would eat away at the pigments, or the sharpie would damage or drift inside the shellac. I'll go have a look at micron pens and pigmented inks. There will be about 3 layers of shellac under my design and about 20 on top - that's traditional numbers in guitar building. I'll ask the client how the next coats will go on, but it might be brushed on, so I'll need a thing that doesn't get dissolved in alcohol.
Dear Kristin, thank you very much for the detailed response! I will be working over an acrylic dispersion ground, so I'll follow your advice and use water-based size. Like you said, since I am using real 24k golf leaves, I guess I shouldn't worry about gold interacting with the paint. Thanks again!
Lead sulfate was introduced as a non-toxic substitute for lead white (although not necessarily used often by artists). Lead sulfate was later found to be toxic, but not to the same degree as lead white (basic lead carbonate) due to it being less reactive to acids and hence less soluble in water. While it is true that lead sulfate is not reactive to hydrogen sulfide air pollution, the amount of hydrogen sulfide air pollution in industrial countries is very small so this concern is not as present today as it was in the 19th century. Basic lead carbonate forms soaps in vegetable drying oils that are beneficial to the paint film, and hence important to the longevity of the painting.
I am so delighted that this forum is now launched. Congratulations to you all!! It is so valuable to avoid the chatter that exists within the internet to actually have colleagues discuss the issues from their perspectives, experience and research. The topic of varnishing acrylic paintings is in quite a flux among conservators. Within many conservation forums exists suggestions that one cannot successfully varnish an acrylic painting in such a way that it can be removed for treatment. As our experience and research suggests, quite the opposite is true. As Kristin recommends, it is first the artists choice whether to varnish or not. We always ask artists to consider varnishing as part of the painting process and not simply like putting plastic wrap over leftovers. We also suggest that varnishing needs to be practiced just like every other part of an artists practice in mark making. If aesthetically a varnish is required to pull together the various parts of the painting it is ultimately the artists' choice. What we also suggest, (which is typically something a practicing conservator cannot suggest, and if the painting can support this) to add an isolation layer of clear non-removable acrylic to the surface of the painted, decorative surface. In this way when one then applies a removable varnish (removable in an alkaline water mixture) or a varnish removable with a solvent, as Kristin suggests with a low aromatic content, then the conservator treating the work is less likely to disturb the decorative surface of the painting. While it is true that glazing can be the best protection for an acrylic painting with the least amount of concern for removal, this is also true for every painting medium, whether in oil, watercolor, encaustics, etc....... I look forward to this lively and informative debate!! Mark Golden, Golden Artist Colors
I see I forgot to identify myself in the above comment. Elliott, Virgil
Some pigments are worse than others for causing "sinking in" after they dry. Burnt umber is the worst in that regard. Another cause is paints thinned with solvent. Avoid these causes, and you'll probably have less trouble of this kind. As for the present picture, to restore the wet appearance of the dried paint before you continue painting, I suggest you scrub a small amount of linseed or walnut oil over the area to be painted into, and then blot the excess off by holding a paper towel over the oiled area with one hand, and rubbing your other hand over the towel to help it absorb oil. What remains on the surface will be enough to accomplish the intended purpose without causing any problems. Paint into this immediately with new wet paint. Do not oil out over the entire picture, but only over the area to be reworked immediately, and perhaps slightly beyond. After the painting is finished, wait at least 6 months before varnishing.
varnishing acrylic paintings can be a solution or a complete disaster ....it could be the nightmare for the unlucky conservator who will try to remove it in the future. let me state the obvious and common sense. if there is the need of varnishing an acrylic painting, one must use a varnish that does not contain solvents that dissolve the acrylic paint. the chosen varnish should also be removed in the future with solvents that do not dissolve the acrylic paint. it is true that varnish will protect acrylic paintings from dust and particles. acrylic paint can be dusted. but some dust may remain firmly attached to acrylic paint since the paint remains slightly tacky, especially in hot climates/seasons. so the layer of varnish may be a solution to this problem. now there is an ongoing debate on how to clean acrylic paintings from dust. some are in favour of using dry methods. others prefer aqueous solutions, stating that the water will remove the unnecessary additives inside the paint - such as emulsifying agent. for me, the simplest solution would be to avoid varnishing acrylic paintings. to reduce the problem of dust from adhering to the painting, i would advice putting a glass or acrylic sheet in front of the painting. this is definitely much more protective and reversible than varnish! of course its impossible to make everyone happy as some might argue that glazing is aesthetically disturbing. some might go as far as to argue that glazing might reduce the visibility of the paint's texture or that a sheet of glass is a psychological barrier that separates the paintings from viewers - which might inhibit appreciation of the artwork. in any case i would insist in opting for acrylic sheet or glass. should glass be used, its important to make use of a laminated sheet, to limit damaging the painting in case the glass shatters. moreover, laminated glass offers a degree of ultraviolet filtering. and plain untreated glass is the best option. one should invest time in carefully positioning lighting to avoid intense light on the painting and reflections. moreover, thin spacers have to be used to keep the glass separated from the paint layer. we definitely do not want to have the paint sticking to the glass! ...or flattening the paint layer! it is equally important to keep the reverse side of paintings distanced from the wall's surface by at least 2 cm. of course direct sunlight would cook our paintings... so we need to avoid this at all cost too. finally, due to weight considerations, large format paintings might be more practical to be glazed with an acrylic sheet rather than glass. hope this helps! David Frank Bugeja Paintings Conservator - Malta
varnishing acrylic paintings can be a solution or a complete disaster ....it could be the nightmare for the unlucky conservator who will try to remove it in the future. let me state the obvious and common sense. if there is the need of varnishing an acrylic painting, one must use a varnish that does not contain solvents that dissolve the acrylic paint. the chosen varnish should also be removed in the future with solvents that do not dissolve the acrylic paint. it is true that varnish will protect acrylic paintings from dust and particles. acrylic paint can be dusted. but some dust may remain firmly attached to acrylic paint since the paint remains slightly tacky, especially in hot climates/seasons. so the layer of varnish may be a solution to this problem. now there is an ongoing debate on how to clean acrylic paintings from dust. some are in favour of using dry methods. others prefer aqueous solutions, stating that the water will remove the unnecessary additives inside the paint - such as emulsifying agent. for me, the simplest solution would be to avoid varnishing acrylic paintings. to reduce the problem of dust from adhering to the painting, i would advice putting a glass or acrylic sheet in front of the painting. this is definitely much more protective and reversible than varnish! of course its impossible to make everyone happy as some might argue that glazing is aesthetically disturbing. some might go as far as to argue that glazing might reduce the visibility of the paint's texture or that a sheet of glass is a psychological barrier that separates the paintings from viewers - which might inhibit appreciation of the artwork. in any case i would insist in opting for acrylic sheet or glass. should glass be used, its important to make use of a laminated sheet, to limit damaging the painting in case the glass shatters. moreover, laminated glass offers a degree of ultraviolet filtering. and plain untreated glass is the best option. one should invest time in carefully positioning lighting to avoid intense light on the painting and reflections. moreover, thin spacers have to be used to keep the glass separated from the paint layer. we definitely do not want to have the paint sticking to the glass! ...or flattening the paint layer! it is equally important to keep the reverse side of paintings distanced from the wall's surface by at least 2 cm. of course direct sunlight would cook our paintings... so we need to avoid this at all cost too. finally, due to weight considerations, large format paintings might be more practical to be glazed with an acrylic sheet rather than glass. hope this helps!
If you must absolutely use a lead-based pigment, you may want to consider lead sulphate instead of lead carbonate. It is apparently more stable. There are several resources on lead white and it's darkening due to hydrogen sulphide in the air. Otherwise, lead is indeed pretty detrimental and eventually lethal by repeated contact, inhalation and ingestion. Laurent Cruveillier MA conservation Student, UAL - Camberwell College
If you must absolutely use a lead-based pigment, you may want to consider lead sulphate instead of lead carbonate. It is apparently more stable. There are several resources on lead white and it's darkening due to hydrogen sulphide in the air. Otherwise, lead is indeed pretty detrimental and eventually lethal by repeated contact, inhalation and ingestion. Laurent Cruveillier MA conservation Student, UAL - Camberwell College
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The Department of Art Conservation
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