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  • mounting oil studies on paper onto dibondApproveRejectUn-ApproveSubscribeUn-Unsubscribe
    Question asked 2017-09-27 14:12:45 ... Most recent comment 2017-09-28 16:50:52
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    Question

    I would like to mount some 10" x 20", oil studies on pH neutral PVA sized, 140 lb wc paper, onto 4 mm dibond using acrylic dispersion medium.   I suspect that this is not optimal, but wish to frame the studies.

    Will a water based "adhesive", such as acrylic dipersion medium, take hold of a roughened, non absorbent, dibond surface?

    Am I headed for trouble?

    Have done the same on gatorfoam, in  smaller sizes, without problem in the past.   The wc paper is stiffer than linen and doesn't seem to buckle or bubble in these small sizes, unlike linen.

    Read the pertinent posts and information in the resources section, but it did not specifically address finished oil studies, on paper, being mounted onto dibond, hence the above question.   

    As dibond is not absorbant, coating both sides of the panel should not be necessary, correct?

    Thanks for your help.

Answers and Comments
  • EditDeleteModerator Answer

    ​There is an excellent article in "Just Paint" that discusses this very issue which I will link to here. However, I am not as familiar with certain issues relating to acrylics and adesion to aluminum coated substrates....I am hoping for example that one of our other moderators will elaborate a bit more on the issue of "hold out" mentioned in the article. But have a read and let us know if you have any other questions.

    Kristin deGhetaldi
    2017-09-28 08:43:08
  • ApproveRejectUn-ApproveUser Comment

    ​Thank you, Kristin.

    It occurred to me that a conservator on Mark Gottsegen's forum, a few years ago, recommended using acrylic primer (usually called "gesso") on a sanded and cleaned dibond panel, over any other primer.   If I recall correctly, it had to do with the coefficient of expansion of the two materials being similar, or something a kin to this.   Perhaps other water based products  like acrylic dispersion medium will be equally as successful on dibond, but I don't know and want to see if I am getting into any problems.

    I primed a dibond panel back then and will be trying it out again as a suitable painting surface, but in the meantime, had produced four, detailed landscape studies on paper, not intending to use them.  I changed my mind and am now searching for guidance regarding the mounting of them on dibond.   Have not done this before on dibond with finished studies that are worth saving as paintings.

    Any anticipated problems?

    2017-09-28 12:52:39
  • ApproveRejectUn-ApproveUser Comment

    ​Read the cited information again...

    Has anyone tried painting on the bonded primers?  Any problems with adhesion between paint layer and bonded primer?

    Introducing this bonded primer(s) adds a new variable that likely has no long history to it.   Would I be advised to stick to the  familar acrylic primer?  I don't want to get into the unkown any farther.   My paintings are strictly to be used indoors. 

    Adding permanence to a painting gets complicated.   Using new materials avoids past permanence problems but adds new, unknown variables.

    2017-09-28 13:04:07
  • EditDeleteModerator Answer

    ​Hi _ 

    We (Golden) have done a lot of testing of our products onto Dibond and for interior works feel confident in the adhesion of our acrylic Gesso to the scuffed surface of Dibond's panels, which normally have a white polyester coating that should prove to be quite stable. As for you concerns with bonding primers, there are always risks when using commercial materials but keep in mind that Dibond itself - and for that matter any metal substarate - is de facto a commercial product. Commercial in and of itself is not a death knell and I think it is a misconception that all art material companies do extensive testing of products to assure longevity. The best of them hopefully do, and we certainly devote a huge amount of resources in that direction, but in general I would wager that high quality commercial products probably are tested more and more strenuously - and based on a host of ASTM Standards - than most artist coatings. I say all of this just to challenge the conception that artists materials are always superior.  The best of them can be - and certainly the best companies will take pains to create the materials from well-understood components with an eye to longevity and durability.  And certainly when formulating an art material you are thinking of a product's service life in terms of centuries while a commercial coating might be measured more in terms of decades. I just think it gets complicated and one can never make a blanket judgement of 'art materisls good' and 'commercial materials bad'. And when dealing with various commercial and architectural surfaces - like cement, brick, metal, etc - commercial products will often be much more specifically engineered and optimized for that material. Art products, on the other had - including acrylic Gesso - tend to be designed for broader, general use rather than very narrow targeted ones.

    All that said, I think for your current needs there is no reason to go that route, but just for future reference, the ones that we have tested and recommend are Sherwin Williams' DTM Bonding Primer as well as X-I-M's UMA. We tend to recommend those over acrylic gessos especially for anything outdoors, like murals, where extreme conditions are common.

    Touching on the AMIEN position about the expansion coefficient, it is true that there is some support for that but in truth the expansion and contraction of a Dibond panel is miniscule and negligible. Especially when indoors or if comapring it to wood or canvas. I would sleep well on those scores.

    Turning to adhesion and mounting, we would point you to this piece of ours on the mounting of watercolor paper to panel as really the process would be the same, just substituting in the Dibond for the hardboard:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggB1veQmwNU&t=5s

    As in all things, when taking on a new process, we would recommend doing a test panel just to make sure you are getting the results you want, and because reversing anything - should something go wrong - would not be easy.

    On that note, have you given any thought to using BEVA film as a way to mount the pieces? It would have the advantage of being reversible. You can find information about this product at Talas or Conservation Support System, among others:

    http://www.talasonline.com/Beva-371-Film

    http://www.conservationsupportsystems.com/product/show/beva-371-film/beva-adhesives

    Kristin and Brian could probably help further with thoughts about BEVA's use for this type of application.

    Finally, "hold out" would not be an issue in this case, when working with a softer acrylic medium such as our Soft Gel, which is what we would recommend. Hold out refers to the resistance of a very thick material to flow into the nooks and crevices of a surface, but rather just staying up on top. For example, if you spread a layer of our Extra Hevy Gel on a roughened surface, there is a liklihood of air pockets and places where intimate contact between the gel and surface is not achieved. The product by itself will not flow into those areas without being pushed in. In short, that is what hold out refers to.

    Hope the above is helpful, but don't hesitate to ask questions if you have them.

    Sarah Sands
    Senior Technical Specialist
    Golden Artist Colors



    Sarah Sands, Senior Technical Specialist, Golden Artist Colors
    2017-09-28 16:08:44
  • EditDeleteModerator Answer

    It would certainly be worthwhile to try BEVA 371 film on scraps of your sized paper, but I do worry about the adhesive soaking through the paper changing the refractive index and slightly darkening the paper if that size is not strong or coherent enough. The film can do this with unsized, fine canvases. Only try these experiments on disposable scraps.

    Brian Baade
    2017-09-28 16:50:52
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